Two possibilities. First, since he played so late into the new year (with the championship and all) and immediately went to training, he did strain his hamstring. Possibility two is that they don't like his current 40 time (they do test these things) and is using a tight hammy excuse to give him more time to prepare and he would be running on the traditionally more friendly Pro Day track (most players perform better times at their Pro Days than at the Combine).
It's also possible that McCarthy bulked up so his weigh-in would look better, and he needs to shed that weight prior to running.
https://x.com/ProFootballTalk/status/1763556110366093446?s=20
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1763558420613927341?s=20
For a QB, I dont care about a 40 time. He's beating you with his arm. He needs to be elusive. That matters more.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 08:52:35 AMFor a QB, I dont care about a 40 time. He's beating you with his arm. He needs to be elusive. That matters more.
Same here. I think McCarthy has more than ample mobility. If I'm using the sixth pick in the draft on him I need to be convinced I'm drafting him for his ability to he an upper echelon passer in this league.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 08:54:09 AMSame here. I think McCarthy has more than ample mobility. If I'm using the sixth pick in the draft on him I need to be convinced I'm drafting him for his ability to he an upper echelon passer in this league.
Well said.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 08:52:35 AMFor a QB, I dont care about a 40 time. He's beating you with his arm. He needs to be elusive. That matters more.
JJ didn't run all that much at Michigan. A really good 40 time would help him boost his stock a bit. JJ hasn't cemented his draft position as the top 3 appeared to have done, so everything is more important to him.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:59:48 AMJJ didn't run all that much at Michigan. A really good 40 time would help him boost his stock a bit. JJ hasn't cemented his draft position as the top 3 appeared to have done, so everything is more important to him.
I noticed he didn't run a ton either, which was slightly curious given it was a ground based offense. I also noticed his yards per carry weren't anything to write home about by QB standards.
Whether he can run a 4.5 or a 4.6 doesn't matter to me that much. If we were to draft him, we're not drafting him to be Lamar Jackson.
But anytime a player opts out of a certain event at the combine, I generally take that to mean he and his reps think his outcome won't or might not be as good as the narrative, or he has some sort of injury that isn't fully public. You don't just blow off the 40 if your time is super impressive (relative to the narrative) and you're operating at peak health. That would make zero sense.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 09:12:23 AMI noticed he didn't run a ton either, which was slightly curious given it was a ground based offense. I also noticed his yards per carry weren't anything to write home about by QB standards.
Whether he can run a 4.5 or a 4.6 doesn't matter to me that much. If we were to draft him, we're not drafting him to be Lamar Jackson.
But anytime a player opts out of a certain event at the combine, I generally take that to mean he and his reps think his outcome won't or might not be as good as the narrative, or he has some sort of injury that isn't fully public. You don't just blow off the 40 if your time is super impressive (relative to the narrative) and you're operating at peak health. That would make zero sense.
I think part of the reason McCarthy didn't rush more is that his mindset was to still figure out a throw even when he was forced to scamble (and he usually figured something out).
JJ is not a run first QB so a 40 time might matter more. When he is scrambling he is looking to throw as his #1 priority. On QB designed runs, he runs fast enough and with moves. Look at Daniel Jones as his comp for running. Jones is a fine runner for a QB. Neither is a Michael Vick, but neither are 99% of other NFL QBs.
to paraphrase Jim Mora - - - Injury? Injury?? Injury???
isn't that one reason some folks are so down on DJ?
Isn't that why waller has become golloday 2.0??
Quote from: President Rick on March 01, 2024, 09:32:22 AMto paraphrase Jim Mora - - - Injury? Injury?? Injury???
isn't that one reason some folks are so down on DJ?
Isn't that why waller has become golloday 2.0??
"Has become"?
Waller was damaged goods when we acquired him. If he weren't, the price would have been much, much higher than an end of third round pick.
Quote from: President Rick on March 01, 2024, 09:32:22 AMto paraphrase Jim Mora - - - Injury? Injury?? Injury???
isn't that one reason some folks are so down on DJ?
Isn't that why waller has become golloday 2.0??
If McCarthy does have a tight hamstring, I wouldn't consider it much of an issue. The only QB prospect to put in as much football was Penix. The two of them played the longest and didn't have the luxury of rest before training for the Combine. There are bound to be fatigue issues.
Red flag! I mean if Williams is getting red flagged for every little decision, let's be fair and throw the red flag here too!!!
Quote from: sooners56 on March 01, 2024, 10:01:52 AMRed flag! I mean if Williams is getting red flagged for every little decision, let's be fair and throw the red flag here too!!!
Are you comparing the first player (since the Combine started in 1985) to refuse a medical with the relatively common practice of a QB not running in the Combine? There are some minor concerns with McCarthy, but I have a hard time equating that with the historic decision by Williams.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 10:04:18 AMAre you comparing the first player (since the Combine started in 1985) to refuse a medical with the relatively common practice of a QB not running in the Combine? There are some minor concerns with McCarthy, but I have a hard time equating that with the historic decision by Williams.
With McCarthy, the biggest red flag is his own coach didnt trust him to throw them to a victory.
With Williams, Deion Sanders did something similar to what Williams is doing and I think Sanders turned out alright and I believe Williams will as well.
Quote from: sooners56 on March 01, 2024, 01:44:02 PMWith McCarthy, the biggest red flag is his own coach didnt trust him to throw them to a victory.
With Williams, Deion Sanders did something similar to what Williams is doing and I think Sanders turned out alright and I believe Williams will as well.
Did Harbaugh tell you he didn't trust McCarthy or is that just an assumption on your part?
Quote from: sooners56 on March 01, 2024, 01:44:02 PMWith McCarthy, the biggest red flag is his own coach didnt trust him to throw them to a victory.
With Williams, Deion Sanders did something similar to what Williams is doing and I think Sanders turned out alright and I believe Williams will as well.
When did Harbaugh have to throw to a victory? Michigan was never 17 points down and needed to air it out. When they needed key completions JJ delivered
If McCarthy thought that running faster than some notional 40 time would benefit his draft status, he'd run it without concern for "thigh tightness".
And just what would this critical differential be as compared to others where we might have some idea of relevance in game situations and conditions? Would it have to be faster than a Joe Burrow 4.9, or a Daniel Jones, Patrick Mahomes, Dak Prescott 4.8 seconds, or a faster 4.75 from Josh Allen? I doubt it. But in any case, not as fast as Jalen Hurts's 4.59, I shouldn't think.
Even if we didn't learn anything useful from "slow" 4.7 Wideouts like Rice and Boldin, or 4.6ers like Carter and Fitzgerald, there still is a chance that we might come to recognize just how little relevance there is between a QB's 40 yard straight line underwear speed and anything he might do in dodging a pass rush, scrambling, throwing on the run and, whether or not by design, running for more than 10, 15, or 20 yard at a time in what almost never is in a straight line.
But then learning may not be the point of it all.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on March 01, 2024, 02:38:46 PMIf McCarthy thought that running faster than some notional 40 time would benefit his draft status, he'd run it without concern for "thigh tightness".
And just what would this critical differential be as compared to others where we might have some idea of relevance in game situations and conditions? Would it have to be faster than a Joe Burrow 4.9, or a Daniel Jones, Patrick Mahomes, Dak Prescott 4.8 seconds, or a faster 4.75 from Josh Allen? I doubt it. But in any case, not as fast as Jalen Hurts's 4.59, I shouldn't think.
Even if we didn't learn anything useful from "slow" 4.7 Wideouts like Rice and Boldin, or 4.6ers like Carter and Fitzgerald, there still is a chance that we might come to recognize just how little relevance there is between a QB's 40 yard straight line underwear speed and anything he might do in dodging a pass rush, scrambling, throwing on the run and, whether or not by design, running for more than 10, 15, or 20 yard at a time in what almost never is in a straight line.
But then learning may not be the point of it all.
Cheers!
I am curious. Do you believe that QB Anthony Richardson was drafted by his limited and inconsistent college tape or do you feel that perhaps his 4.43 40 time combine with showing off a very strong arm got him drafted 4th overall?
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 02:44:14 PMI am curious. Do you believe that QB Anthony Richardson was drafted by his limited and inconsistent college tape or do you feel that perhaps his 4.43 40 time combine with showing off a very strong arm got him drafted 4th overall?
I don't know nor would I expect to know unless someone in the Colt's organization chooses to address it.
To the extent that his footspeed adds to the potential for explosive plays, it could be seen as an added asset limited only by an attendant injury risk. And, of course, as Richardson missed a game due to concussion in Week 2 and all the rest of his Rookie season from Week 5 through 18 as a result of a shoulder injury, it no doubt will suggest added caution especially for a team like the Colts which suffered the untimely loss of the great Andrew Luck. Indeed, Colts GM Chris Ballard has made a point of that fact.
I must say that I am impressed by what Ballard's has otherwise said in regard to Richardson: "Even with the injury to Anthony – like we don't know yet, but we're encouraged about what we saw," Ballard said. "Let's not go crown him. Let's not stamp him yet. I mean, we're not there. We've got a lot of work to do and he's got a lot of work to do, but it's encouraging."
In any case, I don't see how any of that affects what I have said in general about 40 times in the Combine.
Cheers!
The news is that McCarthy tweaked his hamstring which is why he is not running.
Quote from: sooners56 on March 01, 2024, 01:44:02 PMWith McCarthy, the biggest red flag is his own coach didnt trust him to throw them to a victory.
With Williams, Deion Sanders did something similar to what Williams is doing and I think Sanders turned out alright and I believe Williams will as well.
How didn't he trust him to throw for wins when they won all but one game with him as a starter?
Should a coach revise a game plan that leads to a title to put up stats?
Gambling and fantasy football has ruined this sport.
Quote from: JT39 on March 02, 2024, 04:49:39 AMHow didn't he trust him to throw for wins when they won all but one game with him as a starter?
Should a coach revise a game plan that leads to a title to put up stats?
Gambling and fantasy football has ruined this sport.
I don't think that's the point Sooners is making. Nobody is questioning any decisions Harbaugh made or stating he should have used his QB more for stats purposes. Harbaugh's job was to do whatever he felt was going to give his team the best chance to win, and that's what he did. They won the national championship. Nobody is saying he shouldn't have done anything differently.
The point here is that, en route to winning, he (for whatever reason you want to insert) did not use his QB that much in their biggest games. Does that automatically mean McCarthy isn't good? No, of course not. But I don't see why it's unreasonable to ask questions as to why that was the case if we're talking about possibly taking him sixth overall in this draft.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 02, 2024, 05:21:27 AMI don't think that's the point Sooners is making. Nobody is questioning any decisions Harbaugh made or stating he should have used his QB more for stats purposes. Harbaugh's job was to do whatever he felt was going to give his team the best chance to win, and that's what he did. They won the national championship. Nobody is saying he shouldn't have done anything differently.
The point here is that, en route to winning, he (for whatever reason you want to insert) did not use his QB that much in their biggest games. Does that automatically mean McCarthy isn't good? No, of course not. But I don't see why it's unreasonable to ask questions as to why that was the case if we're talking about possibly taking him sixth overall in this draft.
The quote of him saying "he didn't trust him" is the line that makes no sense.
First off - it's speculation and cannot be proven. And it creates false narratives. If Michigan was 8-4, 9-3 and ran the same type of offense - then sure... that might make more sense.
Listen - I am not saying JJ is flawless or even worth the 6th pick. He's a huge mystery to me to. But the idea that Harbaugh didn't trust him when all Harbaugh has heaped the greatest praise of him just makes no sense to me.
Quote from: JT39 on March 02, 2024, 05:43:37 AMThe quote of him saying "he didn't trust him" is the line that makes no sense.
First off - it's speculation and cannot be proven. And it creates false narratives. If Michigan was 8-4, 9-3 and ran the same type of offense - then sure... that might make more sense.
Listen - I am not saying JJ is flawless or even worth the 6th pick. He's a huge mystery to me to. But the idea that Harbaugh didn't trust him when all Harbaugh has heaped the greatest praise of him just makes no sense to me.
Fair enough. I wouldn't conclude that he "didn't trust him" either. Harbaugh has spoken very highly of him. I'm just more interested in why his utilization was much less in their big games than it was against the Bowling Greens of the world. If it's because he had more confidence that he could win on the ground and with defense than in the air, then that's totally fine and it's a credit to Harbaugh as he clearly knows what he is doing, but that makes me ask questions whether I want the Giants to use the sixth pick in the draft on this QB.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 02, 2024, 05:21:27 AMI don't think that's the point Sooners is making. Nobody is questioning any decisions Harbaugh made or stating he should have used his QB more for stats purposes. Harbaugh's job was to do whatever he felt was going to give his team the best chance to win, and that's what he did. They won the national championship. Nobody is saying he shouldn't have done anything differently.
The point here is that, en route to winning, he (for whatever reason you want to insert) did not use his QB that much in their biggest games. Does that automatically mean McCarthy isn't good? No, of course not. But I don't see why it's unreasonable to ask questions as to why that was the case if we're talking about possibly taking him sixth overall in this draft.
JJ was asked to throw at key moments like for important third downs or on 1st and 2nd downs to mix up any tendencies and to take shots downfield. When he did all those things, how did he do?
Quote from: Philosophers on March 02, 2024, 10:10:38 AMJJ was asked to throw at key moments like for important third downs or on 1st and 2nd downs to mix up any tendencies and to take shots downfield. When he did all those things, how did he do?
Obviously he did very well overall and the bottom line is the team won. Nobody is saying otherwise.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 02, 2024, 11:19:03 AMObviously he did very well overall and the bottom line is the team won. Nobody is saying otherwise.
If you look at Harbaugh's entire career, he utilized a strong running game and mixed in play action and some downfield vertical attacks occasionally. JJ played within that and succeeded. There is nothing he did that would suggest if he played in a Lincoln Riley offense or Mike Leach or Lane Kiffin that he would not succeed at what they asked. At least I dont see it.
https://x.com/_NFLDraftNews/status/1763963449359450413?s=20
https://x.com/ggabefootball/status/1763964787791101969?s=20
For what it's worth usually less than 9 is an issue. Joe Burrow famously had 9" hands
https://www.the33rdteam.com/2024-nfl-combine-does-hand-size-matter-for-quarterbacks/#:~:text=Looking%20across%20the%20board%20at,in%20the%20depth%20of%20completions.
Kenny Pickett, Pittsburgh Steelers: 8 1/2 inches
Joe Burrow, Cincinnati Bengals: 9
Jared Goff, Detroit Lions: 9
Derek Carr, New Orleans Saints: 9 1/8
Justin Fields, Chicago Bears: 9 1/8
Sam Howell, Washington Commanders: 9 1/8
Baker Mayfield, Tampa Bay Buccaneers: 9 1/4
Patrick Mahomes, Kansas City Chiefs: 9 1/4
Brock Purdy, San Francisco 49ers: 9 1/4
Geno Smith, Seattle Seahawks: 9 1/4
Lamar Jackson, Baltimore Ravens: 9 1/2
Kyler Murray, Arizona Cardinals: 9 1/2
Mac Jones, New England Patriots: 9 3/4
Daniel Jones, New York Giants: 9 3/4
Deshaun Watson, Cleveland Browns: 9 3/4
Jalen Hurts, Philadelphia Eagles: 9 3/4
Aidan O'Connell, Las Vegas Raiders: 9 3/4
Bryce Young, Carolina Panthers: 9 3/4
Kirk Cousins, Minnesota Vikings: 9 7/8
Tua Tagovailoa, Miami Dolphins: 10
C.J. Stroud, Houston Texans: 10
Trevor Lawrence, Jacksonville Jaguars: 10
Justin Herbert, Los Angeles Chargers: 10
Dak Prescott, Dallas Cowboys: 10
Desmond Ridder, Atlanta Falcons: 10
Matthew Stafford, Los Angeles Rams: 10
Josh Allen, Buffalo Bills: 10 1/8
Aaron Rodgers, New York Jets: 10 1/8
Russell Wilson, Denver Broncos: 10 1/4
Anthony Richardson, Indianapolis Colts: 10 1/2
Jordan Love, Green Bay Packers: 10 1/2
Will Levis, Tennessee Titans: 10 5/8
https://x.com/_SpeakU/status/1763970204055593176?s=20
Quote from: Philosophers on March 02, 2024, 11:30:30 AMIf you look at Harbaugh's entire career, he utilized a strong running game and mixed in play action and some downfield vertical attacks occasionally. JJ played within that and succeeded. There is nothing he did that would suggest if he played in a Lincoln Riley offense or Mike Leach or Lane Kiffin that he would not succeed at what they asked. At least I dont see it.
Fair enough. You've watched a lot more of him than I have. I significantly value your view. If we draft him I'll be rooting for him to light it up for us as fervently as anyone here.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 08:52:35 AMFor a QB, I dont care about a 40 time. He's beating you with his arm. He needs to be elusive. That matters more.
More importantly every major college program tracks players speed in mph with sensors both at practice and in their games. I sure that data is available to the scouts. I know Wisconsin tweets out all the players who break 20 mph a couple times a year. I care far more about a players speed with pads on than running in tights at the combine. In fact I strongly suspect that in a couple years 40 times will become largely irrelevant.
https://x.com/RapSheet/status/1764020919456923683?s=20
https://x.com/_MLFootball/status/1763953075331518594?s=20
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GHsNxvfXoAAyWa-?format=jpg&name=large)
I saw a great video at the Combine where JJ and Blake Corum were on an upper floor of a hotel with a large open air atrium running up the middle of the hotel. It looked like they were just playing catch with JJ throwing it probably 25-30 yards on a rope across the atrium to Blake who then tosses it to a person who tosses it to another person who tosses it back to JJ. They simply looked like they were enjoying tossing a football around. We all know this is a business but it looks nice to see two kids just doing what we all liked to do when we were younger -- just tossing a football around.
McCarthy didn't run the 40 but he did run the Short Shuttle and the 3 cone. His times were excellent and suggest his 40 time will be in the low 4.5s
Short Shuttle- 4.23
3 Cone- 6.82
H
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 03, 2024, 09:11:44 AMMcCarthy didn't run the 40 but he did run the Short Shuttle and the 3 cone. His times were excellent and suggest his 40 time will be in the low 4.5s
Short Shuttle- 4.23
3 Cone- 6.82
His 3-Cone is 5th amongst all participants. Impressive.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on March 03, 2024, 10:40:10 AMH
His 3-Cone is 5th amongst all participants. Impressive.
Yeah yet the lazy folks who don't people play or just get their info from other lazy people who don't do any real college football watching say "average athlete." Drives me crazy. If you are going to have an opinion, at least have watched a person play a lot and know the context in which that player played.
Former general manager Mike Tannenbaum suggested the New York Giants draft JJ McCarthy with the No. 6 overall pick in the 2024 NFL Draft.
The former Michigan quarterback, who's steadily rising up mock drafts into the first half of the first round, would be at his highest projection should he go to the Giants. Sure, there have been predictions of going to the Denver Broncos at No. 12, but not this high.
At least until now and tannenbaum thinks McCarthy is the logical replacement to Daniel Jones.
"If I'm the New York Giants, I am drafting JJ McCarthy with the sixth pick," Tannenbaum said Sunday morning on SportsCenter. "He's a better quarterback today than Daniel Jones and has a much higher ceiling. He was outstanding yesterday. He showed up and competed, the other top three quarterbacks didn't and he threw the ball accurately with good velocity.
"Good anticipation, had excellent footwork. And when you combine that with the fact that he lost one game in college as a starter, had 49 touchdown passes and would've had a lot more if they asked him to do more. He checked every box and he's firmly in play in my opinion with the sixth pick."
https://www.on3.com/pro/news/jj-mccarthy-mike-tannenbaum-suggests-new-york-giants-draft-michigan-qb-no-6-pick-nfl-draft/
QuoteAsked for their opinion on the number of quarterbacks who now appear to be locked into the first round, seven of seven evaluators included McCarthy in that mix. As expected, McCarthy's 18-minute interview sessions drew some positive reviews, as did his demeanor and interaction in the quarterback drills, when two evaluators noted that others appeared to gravitate toward him. Evaluators were also pleasantly surprised to see him check in at 219 pounds, although there was at least some skepticism over how much of that was "real" weight, versus pounds that were padded for the event through hydration and some calorie-cramming.
Michigan's J.J. McCarthy showed enough first-round potential as an NFL draft prospect this past week at the scouting combine in Indianapolis. (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel) (ASSOCIATED PRESS)
That suspicion aside, the general assessment was that McCarthy showed enough at the combine to keep teams intrigued over his above average arm strength, and mix of intangibles and leadership, allowing him to build on this week in his forthcoming Michigan pro day (on March 22) and the slate of personal visits and workouts he'll be taking on. All of this means that while the teams inside the top three — or those capable of moving into the top three — try to determine a pecking order between Williams, Daniels and Maye, the rest of the quarterback needy teams from No. 8 (the Atlanta Falcons) and beyond are left to get a grasp on McCarthy.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/the-nfl-combine-solidified-4-first-round-qbs-alongside-the-mystery-of-michael-penix-jr-and-bo-nix-051833032.html
When has a QB "rising up the draft boards" done well recently? Not antagonizing, but just curious because the last QB projected to be a 2nd rounder/late 1st and "Rose up the boards" was DANIEL JONES
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 05, 2024, 12:24:47 AMWhen has a QB "rising up the draft boards" done well recently? Not antagonizing, but just curious because the last QB projected to be a 2nd rounder/late 1st and "Rose up the boards" was DANIEL JONES
The reason that McCarthy is "rising up the draft boards" is because too many in the draftnik community are production scouts rather than traits-based projection scouts. The production scouts look at his pass attempts and the lower yardage and TDs that lower attempts lead to and declare him not elite.
Now that McCarthy has declared and there is more focus on him by better scouts, he appears to be rising up draft boards. The reality is he has always been a good prospect. He has a strong arm, near elite level athleticism, intangibles that are top tier, he's a winner, and he is a good processor and decision maker. Plus his youth suggests that he hasn't even reached his ceiling yet.
In some ways, McCarthy could be the cleanest prospect in the draft. By that I mean there are not as many red flags that create realistic paths to failure.
Connor Hughes
@Connor_J_Hughes
I'll be completely honest: I don't understand the hype around McCarthy. I never watched Michigan games and thought — that dude's a top-10 pick. The #Giants interest made me dig.
Two league executives I touched base with genuinely like him — highlighted how he worked in a pro-style offense, impressive technique, pocket awareness, and athleticism. One stressed he'll be better in NFL than he was college.
https://x.com/Connor_J_Hughes/status/1765780750643659089?s=20
The Giants are sitting there at No. 6. Do they take J.J. McCarthy, Malik Nabers or Rome Odunze? -- @MikeKing00
Pre-combine I'd have said Nabers. Post-combine I feel McCarthy.
https://sny.tv/articles/giants-mailbag-j-j-mccarthy-nfl-draft
part of me wonders if the JJ rumors are all hype when they actually hope Daniels or Drake falls to them instead.
if he's still there, I think Giants take WR and then take a QB in 2nd or trade up for JJ if he's still there in the 15's or so.