Big Blue Huddle

This in only my opinion...and we all know what that means

I'd move Evan Neal to LG next to Thomas. Neal excelled on the left side of the line in college, so his natural instincts fit well on the line (he could also be the backup LT where he excelled in college). I don't think he's quick enough with his feet to play tackle at the NFL level at RT, besides possibly backup LT, but he's talented and has rare size, strength, and athleticism...just maybe not a perfect fit on the right side and as a RT. We probably should have drafted Charlie Cross in the 2021 draft who was not a bulldozer/run blocking type of OT, but heads above all others in pass protection. He only has a PFF grade of 64 for his first two years, but he's done pretty well in Seattle

We need an agile RT who can pass protect at the NFL level. This is a loaded draft class for tackles, none better than Fashanu, but someone like Kingsley Suamataia [6-6 / 324] is incredibly agile and quick, yet is ranked 10th among OTs, and still in the top 30 overall (tells you just how stacked this years OT class is). From Walter Football: "In 2022, Suamataia transferred to BYU, where he broke out, including not allowing a sack all season. Suamataia has shocking speed and athleticism for an edge blocker of his size. Another big season could make Suamataia a high first-rounder in his draft class." Walter Football has Suamataia ranked 2nd best OT behind Mims, and ahead of Alt and Fashanu https://walterfootball.com/draft2024OT.php

But look at how absolutely stacked the OT class is: https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OT/1/2024 and   
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2024/consensus-big-board-2024?pos=OT

This is also a stacked class of OGs, and we could probably get a Zac Zinter, Tate Ratledge, or Christian Mahogany in the first three rounds (https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OG/1/2024)

LT Thomas / LG Neal / C Schmitz / RG Zinter / RT Suamataia

With such a loaded class at OT and OG, it would inexcusable for the Giants to not finally fix that line!

Jolly: Good post. However, I don't think they'll move Neal to tackle.

I believe they already stated so in one or more press conferences, although the question was not asked directly.

Rather, reporters asked questions generally about "moving players around" on the OL and that point was more or less volunteered by Daboll or one of the other coaches.  I don't usually trust my memory on stuff like this, but I do seem to remember the situation I just described.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 14, 2023, 01:00:47 PMJolly: Good post. However, I don't think they'll move Neal to tackle. (I think you meant guard)

I believe they already stated so in one or more press conferences, although the question was not asked directly.

Rather, reporters asked questions generally about "moving players around" on the OL and that point was more or less volunteered by Daboll or one of the other coaches.  I don't usually trust my memory on stuff like this, but I do seem to remember the situation I just described.

Bob

Quite a few examples of highly rated OTs failing in the NFL, but carve out a decent career as an OG (Robert Gallery comes to mind)

If the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach.  Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well.  They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach.  Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well.  They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.

I meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:19:52 PMI meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind

For me, that's the only thing I am focused on.  Get a proper O-line coach in here and give him what he asks for, and suddenly, after a decade, we could stop talking about the offensive line.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 12:56:37 PMThis in only my opinion...and we all know what that means

I'd move Evan Neal to LG next to Thomas. Neal excelled on the left side of the line in college, so his natural instincts fit well on the line (he could also be the backup LT where he excelled in college). I don't think he's quick enough with his feet to play tackle at the NFL level at RT, besides possibly backup LT, but he's talented and has rare size, strength, and athleticism...just maybe not a perfect fit on the right side and as a RT. We probably should have drafted Charlie Cross in the 2021 draft who was not a bulldozer/run blocking type of OT, but heads above all others in pass protection. He only has a PFF grade of 64 for his first two years, but he's done pretty well in Seattle

We need an agile RT who can pass protect at the NFL level. This is a loaded draft class for tackles, none better than Fashanu, but someone like Kingsley Suamataia [6-6 / 324] is incredibly agile and quick, yet is ranked 10th among OTs, and still in the top 30 overall (tells you just how stacked this years OT class is). From Walter Football: "In 2022, Suamataia transferred to BYU, where he broke out, including not allowing a sack all season. Suamataia has shocking speed and athleticism for an edge blocker of his size. Another big season could make Suamataia a high first-rounder in his draft class." Walter Football has Suamataia ranked 2nd best OT behind Mims, and ahead of Alt and Fashanu https://walterfootball.com/draft2024OT.php

But look at how absolutely stacked the OT class is: https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OT/1/2024 and   
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2024/consensus-big-board-2024?pos=OT

This is also a stacked class of OGs, and we could probably get a Zac Zinter, Tate Ratledge, or Christian Mahogany in the first three rounds (https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OG/1/2024)

LT Thomas / LG Neal / C Schmitz / RG Zinter / RT Suamataia

With such a loaded class at OT and OG, it would inexcusable for the Giants to not finally fix that line!

You're hired!
Actually, you may want to rethink Neal at LG. That's the Guard that pulls. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Neal translates to Guard in Pass Protection. Too slow off the snap, slow feet and hands. I do think he gets another year at RT. Which may be a waste of time. Unfortunately, he should be a good RT but I think a lot of it is mental. He's had a lot of injuries, some nagging and that has held him back from getting reps. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 01:53:23 PMYou're hired!
Actually, you may want to rethink Neal at LG. That's the Guard that pulls. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Neal translates to Guard in Pass Protection. Too slow off the snap, slow feet and hands. I do think he gets another year at RT. Which may be a waste of time. Unfortunately, he should be a good RT but I think a lot of it is mental. He's had a lot of injuries, some nagging and that has held him back from getting reps. 

Ed: IMO Neal's feet are his main problem. I'm unaware of any guards who pull (and do it well) being anything less than the type of Dancing Elephants a former Giants coach always talked about. In short, Neal can't be a pulling guard, and there's a much better chance he'll eventually become a better-than-average RT.  Bob

A couple of weeks ago, I reviewed NFL All Pro OTs going back something like 8-10 years in the NFL.  The one thing that I noticed is that the vast, vast majority or 315 - 320 pounds, not 335-340 pounds on 6'6" of height.  At that height and weight, OTs look tall and lean which I think makes them much more able to explode out of their stance rather than say a 6'6" 340 pound OT.

I used to be a big proponent of bigger the better, but with the quickness of NFL edges, it is much more necessary to have an OT who is quick because not only do they get to where they have to go faster, but it gives them time to settle into their position to deliver max technique.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 14, 2023, 02:58:12 PMA couple of weeks ago, I reviewed NFL All Pro OTs going back something like 8-10 years in the NFL.  The one thing that I noticed is that the vast, vast majority or 315 - 320 pounds, not 335-340 pounds on 6'6" of height.  At that height and weight, OTs look tall and lean which I think makes them much more able to explode out of their stance rather than say a 6'6" 340 pound OT.

I used to be a big proponent of bigger the better, but with the quickness of NFL edges, it is much more necessary to have an OT who is quick because not only do they get to where they have to go faster, but it gives them time to settle into their position to deliver max technique.

Good observation. He's also top heavy and leans at times. The question becomes why didn't they put him on a training and diet regiment in the off season? They can't do it in season because of the carbs they need for energy and stamina. Did you ever see what these guys eat in a week? lol

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 03:29:35 PMGood observation. He's also top heavy and leans at times. The question becomes why didn't they put him on a training and diet regiment in the off season? They can't do it in season because of the carbs they need for energy and stamina. Did you ever see what these guys eat in a week? lol

I don't think the teams are connecting the dots on ideal height/weight and see many of these guys dominating in college at their weight so assume they can do same in NFL.

I have been blown away by the size difference of NFL edges who make contact with Neal and with better technique can either move him or get past him.  If he can't get into proper position at the right time and avoid things like that "lean" that you mentioned, he will continue to get eaten up.  I also wonder as I have not paid enough attention but how well does he do anticipating the count and moving as soon as the ball is hiked.  Another thing maybe he is failing at.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:19:52 PMI meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind

Get Baldy, if he is willing.. he probably makes a good O coach too.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 14, 2023, 03:51:28 PMI don't think the teams are connecting the dots on ideal height/weight and see many of these guys dominating in college at their weight so assume they can do same in NFL.

I have been blown away by the size difference of NFL edges who make contact with Neal and with better technique can either move him or get past him.  If he can't get into proper position at the right time and avoid things like that "lean" that you mentioned, he will continue to get eaten up.  I also wonder as I have not paid enough attention but how well does he do anticipating the count and moving as soon as the ball is hiked.  Another thing maybe he is failing at.

Bobby Skinner does an excellent oline analysis and they do a question and answer podcast. Maybe check out his take on Neal and pose the question.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach.  Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well.  They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.

100% Rich.

We're supposed to have top quality talent evaluators and in fact they've hit on many players in different positions over the past 2 drafts.

So how is Neal such a GIGANTIC miss?!

My answer is the OL Coach as I'm sure 1) position coaches evaluation of draft talent is strongly considered and 2) if they're drafted that high there needs to be a business plan showing an ROI for the team...who is heavily involved in building the plan? The position coach.

We need a much better OL Coach. If we did, we may be able to function with the talent on the roster....especially if we find a QB with pocket awareness and playmaking ability.


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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 14, 2023, 04:41:27 PM100% Rich.

We're supposed to have top quality talent evaluators and in fact they've hit on many players in different positions over the past 2 drafts.

So how is Neal such a GIGANTIC miss?!

My answer is the OL Coach as I'm sure 1) position coaches evaluation of draft talent is strongly considered and <B>2) if they're drafted that high there needs to be a business plan showing an ROI for the team...who is heavily involved in building the plan? The position coach.</B>

We need a much better OL Coach. If we did, we may be able to function with the talent on the roster....especially if we find a QB with pocket awareness and playmaking ability.


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I couldn't agree more with you, Andrew, on the investment vs. ROI perspective because we're talking about pick #7 in the draft to address a critical need. OK, with the pick, you've addressed the need, but you don't have the strategy, business objectives or the right staff to execute to those objectives and strategies??? Really?

I believe the boss over Football Operations had better take an honest assessment of the situation or, if that's not possible, then bring in an independent assessment team to tell him, objectively, with no bias, here's where you're not getting it, and here's some recommendations on how you can approach the situation to address it.

Schoen has invested a lot of blood, sweat and tears, as has Daboll at this point, and there's no doubt they've developed bias around their product, to some degree, at this point. So, maybe an independent assessment might be just the thing they both need at this point to gauge what's going well, what's not that should be scrapped and what can be a good thing if modified with an action plan. Something like that can help vector them back on track and, most important, rebuild confidence in what they are doing.

We are millions of voices telling them what to do. I'm glad I'm not them having to hear all of our opinions, including mine, whether they make sense or not.

Peace!