Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: katkavage on November 17, 2023, 08:09:37 PMThough I can't articulate the details as succinctly as Giant Jim just did, the Maras, Wellington and John, have been disastrous in terms of decision making in building a winning franchise. Yes they are loyal and show integrity, but for us fans, we have to suffer their other ineptitudes much too often.

For me, TC's refusal to shake hands with him tells me all I need to know.

To be fair, TC produced three straight loosing seasons: 7-9, 6-10, 6-10; thus, if you believe coaching is critical to winning and player development, his 'retirement' seems fair.

Quote from: kartanoman on November 17, 2023, 08:06:05 PMWithout 1978, there wouldn't have been a George Young, Ray Perkins or Phil Simms.

Without 1980, there wouldn't have been a Lawrence Taylor.

Without Joe Danelo hitting the upright in overtime in the 1981 season finale against Dallas, he'd never get the opportunity to leap into Scott Brunner's arms after converting a second game winning attempt following Byron Hunt's interception of Danny White, and the Giants ending the 18-Year Rebuilding Plan with their admission into the NFC Wild Card Playoff Round.

Without 1982, there wouldn't have been a Bill Parcells as Head Coach.

Without 1983, there wouldn't have been a Carl Banks (or possibly William Roberts).

Without 1984, there wouldn't have been second chances for both Bill Parcells and Phil Simms, along with a magnificent defense in the making, to help the Giants rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, into a title contender.

Without Sean Landeta's infamous "Ole Miss" in Soldier Field, Chicago, to punctuate a frustrating Divisional Playoff loss to the Bears in 1985, he never would have gotten the chance to redeem himself a year later in his wind-swept Giants Stadium with, arguably, the greatest punt ever in the old Giants Stadium by launching a boomer through the wind and landing it on the Redskins' five-yard line to set the defense up for the kill and the 17-0 NFC Championship victory.

Without Wellington Mara, we probably wouldn't have had 20 years of lousy football. 1964-1983

Quote from: kartanoman on November 17, 2023, 08:06:05 PMWithout the pain and suffering from that one play in 1978, the moment which came to underscore the futility of this organization like no other, with us stunned as Herman Edwards jumped for joy in the end zone as the entire Eagle bench cleared to join him there, without that moment, the nadir of this experience we have as Giants fans, in no way possible could we have felt the infinite joy and ecstacy when the clock hit 0:00 in Pasadena, CA on January 25, 1987, Bill Parcells being lifted onto the shoulders of his "Suburbanities," while John Madden proclaimed, "This is as good as it gets; it doesn't get any better than this; and the best part, it lasts forever." We can romanticize the whole thing now, because that moment in Super Bowl XXI made going through all the despair and seeming hopelessness all worth it in the end. Some way, somehow, I hope Schoen and Daboll will get that opportunity to experience the same thing. So, let them pay their dues today. I'll be there on Sunday moaning and groaning with the rest of you; however, we'll all be there, some day, somehow, when it all translates into something worth going through all of this when it's all said and done. We can look back and laugh at the days of conspiracies while embracing our champions.

Without Tim Mara, Wellington probably would've continued running the team into the ground into the 1990's and we wouldn't have had the great teams of the Parcells era.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 17, 2023, 11:02:21 AMI believe he's involved in GM, HC, and QB hiring decisions. I also believe he's in the Draft Planning room as an ear near the end. I also think he and the GM communicate throughout the season. I don't believe he meddles to the point where others have commented.

Compared to other team owners we have a good one. Mara is a bit old school and archaic in his view of the hierarchy but I think he is more hands off this time around than most say. He knows going loyal and "in house" cost the team dearly with Gettleman, he is giving Schoen and Daboll time to mold the team.

Firing McAdoo in season was probably something he regrets.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 18, 2023, 09:28:14 AMFiring McAdoo in season was probably something he regrets.

As it turns out, Mac was right about Geno and mahomes.  He was just a terrible communicator.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 18, 2023, 09:45:38 AMAs it turns out, Mac was right about Geno and mahomes.  He was just a terrible communicator.

He was a young HC who wasn't ready. Maybe he never will be ready. He's out of the league right now.

Regardless, firing him in season was an aberration.

I firmly believe that Mike Francesa and his huge rant after the Eli benching had a lot to do with McAdoo getting fired in-season. I can't prove anything obviously but there is zero doubt in my mind Mara heard that and got very uncomfortable after hearing it. McAdoo and Reese were going to be gone regardless, but I think the in-season aspect of it was pushed along by the Francesa rant, which went viral.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 18, 2023, 10:00:33 AMHe was a young HC who wasn't ready. Maybe he never will be ready. He's out of the league right now.

Regardless, firing him in season was an aberration.

Concur. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 18, 2023, 10:42:45 AMI firmly believe that Mike Francesa and his huge rant after the Eli benching had a lot to do with McAdoo getting fired in-season. I can't prove anything obviously but there is zero doubt in my mind Mara heard that and got very uncomfortable after hearing it. McAdoo and Reese were going to be gone regardless, but I think the in-season aspect of it was pushed along by the Francesa rant, which went viral.

It was so long ago, I don't even remember what side I was on. However, once the streak was broken, and Geno played well enough to warrant another start, he should have been given a chance.

McAdoo was too involved with the Offense to see what was happening in the Defensive Room.

With cooler minds at the end of the season, a proper evaluation would have taken place.

Not that it would have mattered. His mind was already made up.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 17, 2023, 12:49:58 PMLarry,

For what it's worth, I am not trying to start conspiracy theories, nor am I supporting them.  I have been hearing fans espousing conspiracy theories, and I was curious as to how wide spread such beliefs were among the fanbase.

I'm sorry, Rich. My critique was a bit harsh; tainted by my belief that despite the Mara's history of possessiveness and long stretches of football neuropathy, there really hasn't been a franchise which has had more success in the past 25 years other than the Bradyiots from whom Our Heroes snatched not one, but two Lombos.

Just think of Jerrah's Cows- America's Team per NFL Films, John Facenda- whose generally fickle fans have been living with high expectations without a single SB appearance for the past Quarter Century, post-Jimmy. Whereas the Giants, a team whose fans rarely if ever indulge their expectation, have in that time won 2 of 3 SBs with a rather proprietary family ownerships and otherwise similar amount of turnover in coaching staffs.

Does the question then arise as to how much of a difference is there between the Jerrah and the Mara?

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on November 18, 2023, 12:55:26 PMI'm sorry, Rich. My critique was a bit harsh; tainted by my belief that despite the Mara's history of possessiveness and long stretches of football neuropathy, there really hasn't been a franchise which has had more success in the past 25 years other than the Bradyiots from whom Our Heroes snatched not one, but two Lombos.

Just think of Jerrah's Cows- America's Team per NFL Films, John Facenda- whose generally fickle fans have been living with high expectations without a single SB appearance for the past Quarter Century, post-Jimmy. Whereas the Giants, a team whose fans rarely if ever indulge their expectation, have in that time won 2 of 3 SBs with a rather proprietary family ownerships and otherwise similar amount of turnover in coaching staffs.

Does the question then arise as to how much of a difference is there between the Jerrah and the Mara?

Cheers!

I appreciate the Super Bowls. As I appreciate the intervention by Pete Rozelle to help right a floundering franchise by forcing George Young on the Maras.

Quote from: katkavage on November 18, 2023, 12:58:21 PMI appreciate the Super Bowls. As I appreciate the intervention by Pete Rozelle to help right a floundering franchise by forcing George Young on the Maras.

Pete Rozelle did not force George Young on the Giants. Rozelle reluctantly got involved after being persuaded by Art Model and Art Rooney. After Rozelle got Wellington to allow the next GM to work without his interference, the first 2 names Rozelle suggested turned down interviews. George Young was the 3rd name. There weren't many candidates left in February 1979. The most important thing Rozelle did was getting Wellington to agree to step back.

Quote from: Giant Jim on November 17, 2023, 07:21:47 PMThe Mara's have hurt this team greatly since I've been following the them. While Wellington may have been a top talent evaluator in the '40's and 50's, the game passed him by in the 60's and he never came back. His drafts, which he was solely responsible for, were worse than horrible after 1956. His nephew Tim tried to get Andy Robustelli to run the team in the 70's, but Wellington's interference kept them down. After the league stepped in after the '78 season, Wellington agreed to let the new GM run the team without interference. He allowed George Young to run the team and they were finally successful.
He became too friendly with Young and in the early days of free agency did nothing as it became apparent the game passed Young by. After Young finally stepped down, Wellington and John began meddling with Ernie Accorsi. They pushed Tom Coughlin on him. John was heavily involved with the changing of Caughlin's coordinators, namely Ben McAdoo. Later, he narrow-mindedly pushed Jerry Reese to promote McAdoo to head coach.  John hired Dave Gettleman, again narrow-mindedly. I'm sure he was behind drafting Barkley because he felt Barkley could help Eli Manning. I could go on.
Old man Tim Mara built the team from scratch. Wellington almost destroyed it. Nephew Tim fought and saved it, now John is destroying it again.  I have no love for the Mara's. I wish they'd sell the team.

I have no doubt John Mara is still interfering with GM and personal decisions.

I agree.   Mara's have been guilty of preventing the Giants from adapting and growing with the league for years...always seem to be five years behind with coaching hires and Gms ....always making conservative decisions with all football operations...they like to be perceived by all as NFL legends in their own mind....but in reality survive as owners because they are in the largest market for tv , fans etc. Look at this years schedule....one good year making playoffs and the NFL marketing / schedulers couldn't wait to get them back in prime time games....too many in my opinion. 
And Mara obsession with Ronnie Barnes is an example of their stubbornness to adapt to todays game.


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Quote from: Giant Jim on November 18, 2023, 04:07:39 PMPete Rozelle did not force George Young on the Giants. Rozelle reluctantly got involved after being persuaded by Art Model and Art Rooney. After Rozelle got Wellington to allow the next GM to work without his interference, the first 2 names Rozelle suggested turned down interviews. George Young was the 3rd name. There weren't many candidates left in February 1979. The most important thing Rozelle did was getting Wellington to agree to step back.

That was the biggest step of all (i.e. letting Young build the front office and run the show as it needed to be run).

Getting both sides to agree to Young was Rozelle's significant accomplishment as arbitrator between Timothy J. Mara (i.e. the late Jack Mara's son) and Wellington Mara. The former wanted George Allen while the latter wanted Jan Van Duser from the NFL League Offices. Ultimately, Young became their man and the saga drew to a close. But the damage had been done and the two owners never spoke to each other. They used Young as a go-between. To Young's credit, he made the arrangement work without letting it impact the football operation and, over the course of the next 11 seasons, the Giants won their first two Super Bowls under Bill Parcells. By then, Timothy, along with his mom and sister, were ready to sell their half of ownership and did so to Preston Robert Tisch in 1991. He moved to Florida and invested his time in charitable events before Hodgkins Disease claimed his life in 1995.

It is unclear if Wellington and Timothy attempted to rekindle their relationship after the latter sold his part. Some sources suggest they got together, talked about the old days of football, both the good and the bad. Following Timothy's passing, Wellington went to pay his respects but did not answer any questions regarding their past and simply asked that they respect this private family matter. In the end, Mara loyalty never swayed; once a Giant, always a Giant.

Peace!