Lack of Talent creates losing culture

[JT39]

I made this thread on another board (so if this isnt allowed Mods, feel free to delete.) But I wanted to share with the board.

After watching the Giants pretty much fail for the first four games of the year, it's pretty clear we are so far away from being a true contender and that in order to win games, everything needs to go perfect or the other team needs to implode. However, when looking at this roster, it has to be evident how dilute of talent this team really is. There was a thread on possible players we could trade, and it pretty much dawned on me that we have very few players that could actually help other teams.

QB - I am not going to get into Jones because I am sure he will be discussed at length. But I think everyone can agree on one thing - the chances of him ever being a top 5 QB is slim to none. He has his strengths and he has his weaknesses. And I'll just leave it right there.

RB - Barkley is obviously a very good player who makes a difference when he plays. But the value of a RB just isnt the same as it was 10-15 years ago, and throw in he is constantly hurt, he is not a game changer. On many teams, he can be a key component and help team wins games - but a true difference maker he is not.

WR/TE - I know this is always going to be controversial because is it the WRs or the QB that isnt doing their job. But I would argue our WRs our easily in the bottom 3rd of the league, maybe even one of the worst in the league. Slayton/Hodgins/Campbell/Hyatt are just going to scare other teams. Sure, they will make plays here and there - but every team has those type of WRs. I highly doubt there is a single team that game plans of taking our WRs out of the game. If you look at the top teams (Eagles, Bills, Dolphins, Bengals, Chargers, Seattle, Lions, Cowboys, etc...) none of these guys would crack their top 2. They can add value to teams in certain roles. Look at where these WRs were last year: Slayton barely making the Giants, Hodgins not making the bills, Campbell becoming a bust in Indy.... I mean it's not good. And we have seen on this board that the NFL is passing league and we have WRs who are not serious threats to the other team.

OL - what a mess. We have an elite LT (one of the few talented players on the team), who unfortunately is hurt. The other 4? My goodness. Neal has probably been the worst OL in the league since being drafted.

Our Guard play?
- Glowinski will be out of the league really soon
- Lemieux will most likely be out of the league soon.
- Bredeson - he is a journeyman who's best role is a backup.
- Ezeudu - I actually think he might be one of the worst OL we have. He was awful at guard this year. He has been very poor at LT filling in for Thomas.
- McKathean - he has looked severely overmatched and his play has gotten worse with each game.

Now with Schmitz - he is a rookie who seems to be holding his own - so at least we can say there may be potential.

So thats 2 OL who can hold their own with 3 other starting spots where it can be argued they are the worst in the league. And I am not going to argue what sacks are on what unit. A lot of them are on the OL. We also cannot run the ball for anything either. So its not like we excel in any form of blocking. And as Aikman pointed out, we have put a ton of resources into the OL with very little to show for it.

DL/Edge - Again, another position where we have put a ton of money and resources into and we are not getting any production from all of them. Williams has been a ghost. Azeez is hurt too much. Lawrence is a good player but he has underperformed for a guy who is getting paid a ton of money to make game changing plays. Thibs has been disappointing, as for as disappointing as he has been - we are talking about a guy who has 75% of our sacks. Think about that. And its also just not rushing the passer. We cant stop run the run.

Seattle - 22 carries for 110
SF - 29 carries for 140
Arizona - 26 carries for 150
Dallas - Pollard 5 YPC

Just not acceptable on any measure.

LB - Okereke is a big money ticket who has done very little. McFadden is a late round pick who struggles in coverage and misses a ton of tackles. Again, neither have shown anything of being a difference maker.

CB/S - two rookies get time to grow and mature and Banks looks pretty good. Jackson has been awful. Constantly beat, missed tackles. Pinnock blitzes well but takes a lot of horrid angles and isnt a sure fire tackler either. McKinney hasnt made a play since 2021. Again - in a passing league - turnovers should be more common. This group and the defense as a whole HAS NOT CREATED A SINGLE TURNOVER. 4 games - 0 turnovers. Its almost hard to believe.

Coaching is a whole other issue. We have been unprepared and undisciplined in every game this year, and our play has truly been embarrassing.

I have asked this question many times and still have not gotten an answer. What is this team's identity? Also, what is the team actually good at? Even forget what we are good at, what are we even average at?

People it comes down to one thing: Talent. We lack high end talent at all levels. Its just not Jones. Its just not the OL. Its just not the defense. Its every unit and position.

Gettleman had put us such in a whole with horrific FA signings and some really bad draft decisions. Schoen has come in and to be honest hasnt lit the world on fire either. He has not brought in or drafted anyone that we can right now is a franchise player. Its a major problem.

Until we get some high end talent, it doesnt matter who the coach is. It doesnt matter who the QB is. We will always be a team that puts out a poor product. Last year was a mirage and a fortunate year. But since our last SB, we have failed as a franchise and I am not sure when it will be turned around.

[Rambo89]

This isn't something that you resolve in one or even two seasons after being the worst team in football the previous five seasons.  By next season IMO we'll have a better idea of whether this regime has the Giants on the right track.  And whether we like to acknowledge it or not the guy underneath center is where it all starts.

[JT39]

This isn't something that you resolve in one or even two seasons after being the worst team in football the previous five seasons.  By next season IMO we'll have a better idea of whether this regime has the Giants on the right track.  And whether we like to acknowledge it or not the guy underneath center is where it all starts.

I dont disagree/ My point is when we move on from Jones - we need to give the person who replace him much better pieces around him.

[Rambo89]

I dont disagree/ My point is when we move on from Jones - we need to give the person who replace him much better pieces around him.

The line play needs to improve no one is denying that.  But there are pieces in the passing game to work with.

[MightyGiants]

Mike Lombardi likes to define red chip and blue chip players as:


Definition of a blue-chip player
» Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game
» Is a premier player in the league and a weapon on the field
» Combines competitiveness and skill to have a consistent championship-level performance
» Rates in the top five at his position in the league

Definition of a red-chip player
» Player has abilities that can create mismatches vs. most opponents in the league
» Is a featured player on the team and has impact on the outcome of the game
» Player can't be taken out of the game in one-on-one matchup
» Has a consistent level of performance each week
» Plays at a championship level performance
» Rates in the top 10 at his position in the league


The Giants this season (based on play)

Blue Chip:

Dex
Gano

Red Chip:

None

Thomas might be blue or red, but he needs to actually play to get that designation.

There is a potential for one or two players to make the red chip category, but teams need more than this to compete.

[Rambo89]

Thomas is a blue chip player.  He was a 2nd Team All Pro last season.  IMO Waller, Robinson and Hyatt are potential Red chip players if you can actually get them the ball.

Where the Giants are missing Red Chip Players is on defense.  Excluding the QB beyond getting better offensive line play where the Giants biggest need for talent is on defense.

[JT39]

The line play needs to improve no one is denying that.  But there are pieces in the passing game to work with.

I know you think Waller can be a piece but we are talking about a 31 year old with injury issues. How many more high end years does he have left?

Robinson and Hyatt is all about potential. They are not sure fire things yet.

[katkavage]

Giants made mistakes when the Schoen/ Daboll regime took over. They should have torn it all down then. Two years now are wasted with the team's status as bad as it was then. You can't do a halfway rebuild. Jones and Barkley should have been gone then.

[MightyGiants]

Thomas is a blue chip player.  He was a 2nd Team All Pro last season.  IMO Waller, Robinson and Hyatt are potential Red chip players if you can actually get them the ball.

Where the Giants are missing Red Chip Players is on defense.  Excluding the QB beyond getting better offensive line play where the Giants biggest need for talent is on defense.

Thomas is a blue chip player.  He was a 2nd Team All Pro last season.  IMO Waller, Robinson and Hyatt are potential Red chip players if you can actually get them the ball.

Where the Giants are missing Red Chip Players is on defense.  Excluding the QB beyond getting better offensive line play where the Giants biggest need for talent is on defense.

Why don't we look at those "red chips if not for Daniel Jones" players

Waller-  Tied for 62nd in separation (Next Gen stats), 24th out of 71 TEs per PFF

Hyatt and Robinson haven't taken enough snaps to qualify for the Next Gen Stats.  Hyatt is ranked 83rd out of 113 WRs.  Robinson doesn't have enough snaps to be ranked by PFF, but he does have a good 73.2 grade (a nice grade but not red chip level).

So I do not see any of them currently playing to a level that suggests they are red chip.  They all may have the potential to be red chippers but they need to actually show it on the field to earn it, in my opinion.

[Rambo89]

Why don't we look at those "red chips if not for Daniel Jones" players

Waller-  Tied for 62nd in separation (Next Gen stats), 24th out of 71 TEs per PFF

Hyatt and Robinson haven't taken enough snaps to qualify for the Next Gen Stats.  Hyatt is ranked 83rd out of 113 WRs.  Robinson doesn't have enough snaps to be ranked by PFF, but he does have a good 73.2 grade (a nice grade but not red chip level).

So I do not see any of them currently playing to a level that suggests they are red chip.  They all may have the potential to be red chippers but they need to actually show it on the field to earn it, in my opinion.

Again we are using PFF as the Bible and as fact when they are merely one opinionated evaluation.  With those three you need to get them the ball if you can't get them the ball then of course they are going to not be rated as highly.  With a TE that has a size mismatch separation isn't as important as it is putting the ball in a spot for them to make a play on.  This isn't the ACC where guys are going to be wide open with tons of field between the receiver and a defender.  In the NFL you have to be able to make tight throws in tight spaces and anticipate plays.

[TDToomer]

Giants made mistakes when the Schoen/ Daboll regime took over. They should have torn it all down then. Two years now are wasted with the team's status as bad as it was then. You can't do a halfway rebuild. Jones and Barkley should have been gone then.

Easier said than done. Jones's 4th year rookie deal was guaranteed and Gettleman had already picked up Barkley's 5th year option. Trade partners were not knocking on Schoen's door. So who would you replace them with beginning on 2022? The draft was awful for QBs.

[B1GBLUE]

I dont disagree/ My point is when we move on from Jones - we need to give the person who replace him much better pieces around him.

which begs the question. do you move on from jones and finally get said pieces? or do you keep jones and do the same thing? we can use the precious high draft capital to put the pieces around a guy we already have (who yes, is limited and damaged goods at this point, but has shown he CAN win in this league under the right conditions). who's to say ANY other qb is gonna come in and do THAT much better? we are pretty stuck with him for a couple years. i dont mind drafting a qb, but with the high #1 pick we are getting i think you just have to get the best FOOTBALL player regardless if they are a WR, a S, a LB...idc. we need dogs out there. we have the softest team in the league.

[katkavage]

Easier said than done. Jones's 4th year rookie deal was guaranteed and Gettleman had already picked up Barkley's 5th year option. Trade partners were not knocking on Schoen's door. So who would you replace them with beginning on 2022? The draft was awful for QBs.

Tyrod Taylor. I wouldn't rush to draft a QB if he's not the one. Last year's mirage set the rebuild back.