Raanan reports other coaches unhappy with Daboll

[MightyGiants]

Mighty

Daboll has to want to change but having others around you that you respect and who can influence you helps the process. My sense is Daboll relies more on Schoen, given their relationship, than his coordinators (who were all new to him) for advice and a sounding board. I do not think that is healthy which is why I believe he needs guys he trusts in those roles.

Neil 😉

I agree; not only does Daboll have to want to change, but he has to first recognize the need to change.  It's quite possible that Daboll saw getting rid of Wink and having the Giants organization smear Wink and his people with the NYG-sanctioned leaks as a victory.  Coughlin was convinced that he needed to change when people close to him and in the Giants organization got Tom to understand that if he wanted to succeed, he needed to change his ways.

Schoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter.  So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll).  One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee.   Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences.   Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it.   That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.

 

[Doc16LT56]

This is all very discouraging. Wink being gone is a positive based on the information that's come out. But Daboll seems to have his own issues that he needs to overcome. He has to "grow up" in a sense, if his internal wiring even allows for that.

To the point of winning as a cure all, I agree that winning is an excellent deodorant. But it doesn't necessarily cure what's rotten. The point is to win, so if you're winning no one cares about the grievances of certain individuals.

But are we talking about winning Super Bowls, despite clashing personalities? If so, then everyone will sign up for that. Or, are we talking about a team that can win some games but continually fails in the playoffs because, at least in part, key staff are either not aligned, don't trust each other, or otherwise have issues working together.

I think the concerns with Daboll's personality are legit and something he's going to have to work on if he wants to succeed in NY.

[MightyGiants]

One other point to all this. Obviously, the Giants do not want to fire another HC after two seasons and continue the vicious cycle. The difference here is that Joe Schoen had a set of balls and not only stood by his HC instead of looking to save his own ass, but he cleaned house of the cancer.

Something Dave Gettleman and Jerry Reese didn't have the character and integrity to do.

Anyone who has had to swim with sharks understands that in order to right the ship and deal with the self serving, you need to fight back and not allow yourself to be eaten alive.

It ended the way it did because Wink wasn't going to be allowed to dictate how this would go down.

Anyone who hires this guy, is a fool.

He got what he deserved.

The Giants hired Wink, so I guess we should include them in the fool category.  I mean Wink is 60 with a long history in the league.  So you would have to think the Giants had a pretty good idea of who they were hiring.

Also, being a GM is not about "having balls"; it's about keeping the peace and keeping things professional.  On that front, Schoen came up short. 

[MightyGiants]

This is all very discouraging. Wink being gone is a positive based on the information that's come out. But Daboll seems to have his own issues that he needs to overcome. He has to "grow up" in a sense, if his internal wiring even allows for that.

To the point of winning as a cure all, I agree that winning is an excellent deodorant. But it doesn't necessarily cure what's rotten. The point is to win, so if you're winning no one cares about the grievances of certain individuals.

But are we talking about winning Super Bowls, despite clashing personalities? If so, then everyone will sign up for that. Or, are we talking about a team that can win some games but continually fails in the playoffs because, at least in part, key staff are either not aligned, don't trust each other, or otherwise have issues working together.

I think the concerns with Daboll's personality are legit and something he's going to have to work on if he wants to succeed in NY.

Winning being the ultimate deodorant is true, but it does have its limitations.   If the stink you are trying to cover up is strong enough, it may prevent winning.

[Bob In PA]

Schoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter.  So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll).  One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee.   Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences.   Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it.   That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.

Rich: I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning. 

What is/was Daboll's "error of his ways?"

Is the error based on fact, opinion, supposition or media reporting?

Bob

[uconnjack8]

Is Schoen someone who is a good mentor?  Genuine question because his background in scouting isn't something that would say he had to be a good leader.  Further, was Schoen unaware of how Daboll was handling the Wink situation?

Did Daboll fire coaches without the GM knowing?  I would doubt that.  Seems to me that Schoen was at least aware of the situation and it still got handled as it did.

[MightyGiants]

Rich: I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning. 

What is/was Daboll's "error of his ways?"

Is the error based on fact, opinion, supposition or media reporting?

Bob

Bob,

Ranaan reported that he has talked to coaches and others in the building.  What Raanan heard was that Wink wasn't the only coach on the staff unhappy with Daboll.  If Daboll was doing things "right", such comments would not be heard.  Hence, the error of his ways.  The way Daboll is conducting himself and treating his coaching staff (that he hired) is such that it's generating dissatisfaction among his staff.  That is not good, and I think it's an issue that goes beyond my personal preferences and management style; I would say it's one of the universal foundations of management.  You conduct yourself in a way where the people under you respect you and feel like they are treated fairly.

[MightyGiants]

Is Schoen someone who is a good mentor?  Genuine question because his background in scouting isn't something that would say he had to be a good leader.  Further, was Schoen unaware of how Daboll was handling the Wink situation?

Did Daboll fire coaches without the GM knowing?  I would doubt that.  Seems to me that Schoen was at least aware of the situation and it still got handled as it did.

This is a good point.  I have heard some NFL people say that the biggest challenge for new GMs is the people side of things.  Spending long hours pouring over tape and writing reports does not do a great job of preparing you for a job where people skills are your number one asset.  Schoen did spend time as an assistant GM which should have helped him hone his people skills.

[Bob In PA]

Bob,

Ranaan reported that he has talked to coaches and others in the building.  What Raanan heard was that Wink wasn't the only coach on the staff unhappy with Daboll.  If Daboll was doing things "right", such comments would not be heard.  Hence, the error of his ways.  The way Daboll is conducting himself and treating his coaching staff (that he hired) is such that it's generating dissatisfaction among his staff.  That is not good, and I think it's an issue that goes beyond my personal preferences and management style; I would say it's one of the universal foundations of management.  You conduct yourself in a way where the people under you respect you and feel like they are treated fairly.

Rich: That's one possibility. Another is that, upon their being hired, each of the supposedly "unhappy" assistants/coordinators were told what was expected of them, and THEY didn't hold up their end of the bargain (whatever that might have been).

Another is that they're "unhappy" because they were called on the carpet and told that their performance was sub-par and they didn't like hearing the bad news.

Yet one more - Ranaan is full of crap.

Bob

[files58]

There were other coaches not happy. Who? How many? The plural could just be referring to the Wilkins boys. They're gone. Ambiguity garners attention, and one's own interpretation. I saw a team lacking in talent, and with injuries play hard for Daboll. If the locker room resembled a High School cafeteria that would not have happened, and we would be picking 2nd or 3rd. You don't play hard and with a purpose without some unity.

[MightyGiants]

There were other coaches not happy. Who? How many? The plural could just be referring to the Wilkins boys. They're gone. Ambiguity garners attention, and one's own interpretation. I saw a team lacking in talent, and with injuries play hard for Daboll. If the locker room resembled a High School cafeteria that would not have happened, and we would be picking 2nd or 3rd. You don't play hard and with a purpose without some unity.

The only coach that Raanan mentioned by name was Kafka (there have been reports from others suggesting Kafka was less than happy).

[T200]

I agree; not only does Daboll have to want to change, but he has to first recognize the need to change.  It's quite possible that Daboll saw getting rid of Wink and having the Giants organization smear Wink and his people with the NYG-sanctioned leaks as a victory.  Coughlin was convinced that he needed to change when people close to him and in the Giants organization got Tom to understand that if he wanted to succeed, he needed to change his ways.

Schoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter.  So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll).  One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee.   Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences.   Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it.   That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.

How is it that, according to you, there were "NYG-sanctioned leaks" to the media that, in your words, amount to a "smear of Wink and his people" yet Ranaan can talk to "other unhappy coaches" and that's not a smear against Daboll?

It really is quite comical how you can make a one-sided argument when you're the primary proponent of intellectual honesty here.

[Philosophers]

Maybe I am wrong but in spite of this spat with coaches, other than Xavier McKinney's outbursts about wanting to get paid, it seems very quiet among the players.  I don't see any uprising with players protesting Dabs.  They seem to be aligned under him.  Am I wrong on that?

[UncannyGfan]

Toxic work environments can't be sustained.  It can be ignored when things are going well though. 

They shouldn't stick with sunk cost only for the sake of stability at the position.

It's time for Antonio Pierce to be head coach of the New York Football Giants!

[katkavage]

Just win, baby. Do that and everyone is happy. Easy.