The truth behind Brian Daboll, Wink Martindale, Mike Kafka and the Giants’ drama

[Ed Vette]

The problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss, especially if that cunning is directed at them or their coworkers.  I have repeatedly heard how Daboll got over on one of his assistant coaches and that other coaches see that and are turned off by such behavior.

I suspect the game-playing turns off his coaching staff far more than being cursed out.  Most people prefer to work with straight shooters.

As for the, if it happens again consequences.  Now that the word is out there as to how Daboll treats his coaches, the people who will take interviews will either have no problem working for a less-than-straightforward HC or are desperate for work and will tolerate anything.  So I doubt we will see another Wink style blowup.  I am mindful that when Wink took the job, how Daboll would conduct himself as a head coach was unknown.

I am interested in seeing who replaces Wink.  Many who were supportive of Wink's departure seemed to believe there was an opportunity to upgrade.  The list of candidates, to date, has been less than impressive.  If they don't pull a rabbit out of their hat, it seems the quality of the defensive coaching staff may decline a bit this offseason. 

Yes but Rich if Wink was giving him the business his with his minions, he has every right to be cunning and protect himself. The problem with looking at it from the outside is we don't know if these highlights paint a picture of the day-to-day BS or if they are isolated over two years. Seems to me that both parties had culpability to a certain extent. We don't know who was the greater transgressor.

As for getting a better DC? Does it really matter? The team will eventually implode with a toxic relationship. One or both of them had to go, and Schoen with his ear at the door and his finger on the pulse of the situation supported Daboll. He had enough to fire both if he felt that he was playing Russian Roulette with a bullet named Wink and a bullet named Daboll. He in essence put his job on the line for his HC. If he fired Daboll however, that's the same as firing Wink too. The next HC would never agree to having this guy under him and in almost all cases, the entire staff goes. Then it's start all over from scratch. 

Wink left over pride when his boys were ejected. He lost power and he didn't want to exist in a world where he didn't have hand. That to me, speaks for itself. Eventually we will know if the right decisions were made. I hope for us that they were. We as fans deserve better.

[AZGiantFan]

The problem with cunning is that I know very few people who want to work for a cunning boss,

The good part about cunning is that cunning people tend to be successful.

Given our OLB cluster flop in lack of development and misuse of Kayvon, and them being the weak spot in our atrocious run defense, irrespective of cliques and undermining Daboll had more than enough justification to fire Wilkins.

[Trench]

Bottom line is this - Dabol took a step back this year from where he was after last season.

He also looks uncomfortable in post game press conferences which I thought would start to improve but it hasn't.

[MightyGiants]

The good part about cunning is that cunning people tend to be successful.

Given our OLB cluster flop in lack of development and misuse of Kayvon, and them being the weak spot in our atrocious run defense, irrespective of cliques and undermining Daboll had more than enough justification to fire Wilkins.

My experience with cunning people is they tend to be personally successful while not bringing much value to the organization, coworkers, or subordinates.

Also, which side of the ball was less successful?  Offense (Daboll) or Defense (Wink)?

[DaveBrown74]

Bottom line is this - Dabol took a step back this year from where he was after last season.

He also looks uncomfortable in post game press conferences which I thought would start to improve but it hasn't.

I think these are both accurate and fair statements.

[AYM]

This reminds me of Fermi's Paradox

If he cannot reason correctly, or put together a winning team, and is abusive to subortinates

Why is he still HC.  If Schoen really listened in for 4 games, he must be painfully aware of the discordance and abusive behavior.

Mark my words- Schoen will go down with the ship next year unless drastic changes are made

The paradox is the players do seem to like Daboll.  They never quit on him
How is this possible.  Can both things be true- Coaches hate him and players like him?  I do remember him unloading on Jones, but I'd like to unload on Jones LOL  Throw the damm ball down the field will'ya?

He went after Tyrod Taylor a couple of times too.

It's not impossible he beats up his coaching staff but looks out for players.

[AZGiantFan]

Gi

My experience with cunning people is they tend to be personally successful while not bringing much value to the organization, coworkers, or subordinates.

Also, which side of the ball was less successful?  Offense (Daboll) or Defense (Wink)?

Given the conventional wisdom that to be successful you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run, clearly the 16th ranked rushing offense, not the 32nd ranked rushing defense.

[MightyGiants]

I listened to the Giants Insider Podcast this morning.  I consider him (and Paul Schwartz) as the two mouth pieces for NYG among the beat reporters.  Here are the Giants unofficial message points:

1)  It was just Daboll being Daboll; there was nothing to see here, folks.  Schoen and the owners are 100% behind Daboll

2) It's okay that Daboll abuses his coaching staff for two reasons.  First, Parcells did the same thing back in the 80s, and the players still like Daboll (and played hard for him down the stretch), so it's all good.

3) The Giants really want to stop talking about this.

4) They do not deny any of the facts reported by Pat Leonard, but they are still blaming Wink for everything, and Wink needs to keep his mouth shut.

5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

[Ed Vette]

I listened to the Giants Insider Podcast this morning.  I consider him (and Paul Schwartz) as the two mouth pieces for NYG among the beat reporters.  Here are the Giants unofficial message points:

1)  It was just Daboll being Daboll; there was nothing to see here, folks.  Schoen and the owners are 100% behind Daboll

2) It's okay that Daboll abuses his coaching staff for two reasons.  First, Parcells did the same thing back in the 80s, and the players still like Daboll (and played hard for him down the stretch), so it's all good.

3) The Giants really want to stop talking about this.

4) They do not deny any of the facts reported by Pat Leonard, but they are still blaming Wink for everything, and Wink needs to keep his mouth shut.

5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

Do you think the had Wink sign a DND for his 3 mil?

[MightyGiants]

Do you think the had Wink sign a DND for his 3 mil?

Wink didn't get any money from NYG when he left; he just got his freedom to go anywhere else.   Plus, people in the NFL talk.  Non-disclosures are unheard of in the NFL, and it would have made the Giants look as guilty as sin if they had former employees sign them.

We have heard from both sides of this story.  What I find rather striking is that the two sides don't seem to be disputing the facts.  They are simply putting out the facts their side feels are damming to the other side.  So, I think this is a situation where we have a pretty good idea of what went on behind the scenes (pretty much everything we heard from both sides).

Having consumed all the information I could, I wouldn't say I am convinced Daboll will fail moving forward, but I have serious doubts about Daboll's ability to turn things around and be the sort of head coach who establishes a winning culture and enjoys sustained success.

It's not just the issues with the coaching.  As you pointed out, Daboll has been extremely player-friendly.   This past season's training camp had a country club atmosphere, which seemed to leave the team ill-prepared for the start of the season.   I am not sure it's a good look that players struggle to be heard when they talk to reporters in the locker room over the hooting and the hollering over the ping pong games. 

I think what the problem with the Giants' ownership is they put too much stock in how the team plays in the last quarter of the season rather than considering how they played over the entire season.  That's why we have the pattern of being out of the playoffs by Halloween, but the team wins enough games to drop their draft position, making talent acquisition more difficult.

[Ed Vette]

Wink didn't get any money from NYG when he left; he just got his freedom to go anywhere else.   Plus, people in the NFL talk.  Non-disclosures are unheard of in the NFL, and it would have made the Giants look as guilty as sin if they had former employees sign them.

We have heard from both sides of this story.  What I find rather striking is that the two sides don't seem to be disputing the facts.  They are simply putting out the facts their side feels are damming to the other side.  So, I think this is a situation where we have a pretty good idea of what went on behind the scenes (pretty much everything we heard from both sides).

Having consumed all the information I could, I wouldn't say I am convinced Daboll will fail moving forward, but I have serious doubts about Daboll's ability to turn things around and be the sort of head coach who establishes a winning culture and enjoys sustained success.

It's not just the issues with the coaching.  As you pointed out, Daboll has been extremely player-friendly.   This past season's training camp had a country club atmosphere, which seemed to leave the team ill-prepared for the start of the season.   I am not sure it's a good look that players struggle to be heard when they talk to reporters in the locker room over the hooting and the hollering over the ping pong games. 

I think what the problem with the Giants' ownership is they put too much stock in how the team plays in the last quarter of the season rather than considering how they played over the entire season.  That's why we have the pattern of being out of the playoffs by Halloween, but the team wins enough games to drop their draft position, making talent acquisition more difficult.

Yup, I have more of a problem with how this team was prepared for the season and some decisions that were made in preparing the Roster and deciding on the roster as well as starting Cutlets over Taylor, which may have killed what playoff hopes they had. The Oline decisions were the real killer.

[MightyGiants]

Yup, I have more of a problem with how this team was prepared for the season and some decisions that were made in preparing the Roster and deciding on the roster as well as starting Cutlets over Taylor, which may have killed what playoff hopes they had. The Oline decisions were the real killer.

I would also say that the fiasco at the end of the half in Buffalo is the fault of both Tyrod and Daboll.  Daboll's job as a non-playing calling HC is to make sure players understand what to do in situations like the one T2 faced.   Otherwise, other than making it harder for the other coaches to do their jobs by screaming into the headsets, what value is Daboll bringing on game day?

[TDToomer]

5) Everyone has had their boss scream at them; it's normal

I think this is coming way less common outside of pro sports. Maybe its the current crop of millenials coming out of college who are less accepting of this type of behavior from their superiors. I haven't been screamed at in a workplace in many years.

6) The Giants were able to sign an RB and O-line coach, so clearly, Daboll's mistreatment of his coaching staff isn't a problem.

Excellent point but do we know of Mara and Tisch have greenlight above market salaries for these assistants (they should regardless)? Not only were the signed, but signed quickly and with stellar resumes.

[LennG]

I don't know if this article has already been included but I just saw it today

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/18/new-york-giants-staffers-view-current-environment-as-toxic/

Giants staffers view current environment as 'toxic'

[MightyGiants]

I think this is coming way less common outside of pro sports. Maybe its the current crop of millenials coming out of college who are less accepting of this type of behavior from their superiors. I haven't been screamed at in a workplace in many years.

Excellent point but do we know of Mara and Tisch have greenlight above market salaries for these assistants (they should regardless)? Not only were the signed, but signed quickly and with stellar resumes.

Yeah, the screaming has long been phased out.   At this point, even raising your voice (regardless of what you say) can result in getting called on the carpet at human resources.

I found it ironic that NYG cited Parcells as justification for yelling at coaches.  The thing with Parcells is he didn't yell at everyone (player or coach).  Parcells was a master motivator.  He appreciated that everyone was different.  Some players and coaches would respond best to being yelled at, while others would perform their best with a pat on the ass.  If Parcells was head coach, I seriously doubt he would have been yelling at Wink, because he would have realized that wasn't the best approach to take with him.