Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Uncle Mickey on Today at 09:44:05 AMMaye initially dropped my temperature to frigid levels. I see a budding Allen/Herbert when I watch his tape. McCarthy proved to be smoke. Right or wrong, Giants felt Pats asking price was just too big. 

I was peeved to say the least but as reality set in , I took a hard look at what we have now post draft both players and the ball coaches.


What exactly are we left with at QB?  I try to look at common denominators between good play and bad play as much as possible to make a determination. Let's start at the beginning. Jones rookie year threw 24 TDs in just 12 games with pedestrian WRs. Shurmur was an above average offensive guy (who stunk as a HC) but route concepts had clear site lines and attacked multiple levels of the defense. Next couple years after, he had a hideous OC with that Garrett guy who only knew how to run hitches and curls all day. Basically all 5 years this kid not once had a receiver that could sniff a pro-bowl. The other common denominator was the offensive line was coached by a whos who of who not to hire as coaches. The only thing he had which was average or a smidge above was offensive coaching for a couple years. Most everything else is below to bottom barrell including numerous offensive lineman that were really
really just stinka-potumus at pass blocking.

I actually don't blame anyone of my blue feathered friends who has given up on him.  There are reasons why it could be argued the other way. However, I have also seen QBs when the cast around them improve be it coaches or players their performance substantially improves too. I want to have a glimmer of hope this upcoming season. 

So I'm kinda going from cup half empty with a crack at the bottom leaking to a cup half full  perspective.


This just might be the first darn time Daniel will have:

* A true what we believe to be potentially elite WR1
* An offensive line coach that has what seems to be excellent credentials (top 10-12 finishes with an average line with two different squads)
* An offensive line with numerous players that project well in pass blocking. AT, Runyons metrics in pass pro are excellent. Eluemunor as both an RG or RT projects at least as average. JMS he was supposed to be the top OC in the 2023 draft. Then we will see what Bracillo can come up with for the final spot.

I choose to be disappointed yes but also cautiously optimistic that we could see something positive maybe even significantly better with a WR1 and an OL that actually pass blocks.

Good post. You have to assess the schedule. As of today how many teams on that schedule will the Giants be favored?

Quote from: MightyGiants on Today at 08:33:47 AMI liked Odunze but he was more the safe pick (high floor/lower ceiling).  I think Odunze's ceiling is occasional Pro Bowls, while Naber's ceiling is perennial All Pro

I'm only saying that if Nabers and Harrison were gone, they would take Odunze and not McCarthy. The Giants are a "safe" pick organization.

Looking at the teams they play this season, I picked mediocre, and that was being generous. Of course that is now and then will be then. They play the AFC North where all the teams have good QBs except Pittsburgh, but they have a good coach who overcomes other things and finds a way to always keep his team competitive. In their own division, they, unless Philly continues on their free form collapse from the end of last season, they will have a rough time. And Washington, now with a new QB and coach, won't be the easy two wins they have been the past few years. In the NFC South, only Carolina is a sure win. The other teams will be a struggle. I think they also play Minnesota, Seattle and the Colts. All could be wins. Do the math now and what do you come up with 5-7 wins tops. If teams lose key players everything changes, of course. But you asked now.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 07:52:14 AMRich,

Let's say for the moment that the Giants' supposed heavy interest in Maye was in fact no more than a smoke screen, and they always wanted Nabers and didn't want any QB. How would putting that smoke screen out there increase their chances of getting Nabers exactly? It was never reported they were particularly interested in McCarthy. It was all about Maye. Once the Pats took Maye, I'm not sure why any smoke screen would have mattered or why the Giants' chances of landing Nabers were augmented.

If they were hell-bent on specifically getting Nabers at all costs, the smoke screens that would have made sense would have been feigning heavy interest in Odunze and/or pretending to be turned off by Nabers (as they allegedly did with Thibodeaux). I don't follow why feigning interest in Maye augments their chances of getting Nabers.

I believe the interest in Maye was genuine. I also think their inaction around restructuring Jones' contract in this offseason speaks volumes about where they stand on him long term at this point, so it makes sense that they would have potentially had interest in one or more of the QBs available. McCarthy just wasn't one of them.

I have no doubt that if Nabers was chosen before the Giants, they would have taken Odunze. They were never going to take McCarthy at 6.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on Today at 02:49:27 AMI have my doubts whether Kraft was going to approve any trade out of #3 and Maye.  I don't think the pick we traded for Burns would have tipped the balance.

He wasn't.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 27, 2024, 07:28:18 PMI actually don't believe this to be the case, myself. Pretty much everyone in the media including respected, resourceful insider types like Ian Rappaport claims the Giants tried very hard to get a deal done with the Pats, but it simply wasn't possible (without the terms being obscene to the point of not being worth it).

I think the reason they didn't draft McCarthy is not that they were unwilling to draft a QB with Jones under control. The owner (who has been perhaps the biggest Jones advocate in the building) himself said he was fine with them drafting a QB in the first round. The reason they didn't take McCarthy is because they didn't believe he was worthy of being taken sixth overall. And they couldn't get the guy they wanted. Simple as that.

It's the cynic in me, DB. Looking at it now, I really don't think NE would pass on the third best QB no matter what was offered. Kraft wanted a QB. And the Giants knew this. The talks weren't serious. There was a reason Nabers was the consensus mock pick from the get go. I really think they couldn't seriously take a QB with Jones under that bad contract. It would be an admission of a mistake. Again no proof but I'm just not convinced.

Yup. They were never going to draft a QB with Jones under that horrific contract. Giants are so predictable.

Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2024, 04:17:34 PMRich: IMO, we're not short on topics right now, so why talk about guys who've never played an NFL game? Bob

PS. Sorry to be a stick in the mud... appreciate all you do for this site, but IMO this one could be brought up in late summer (maybe).

On paper counts, Bob. You should know that.

Quote from: LennG on April 27, 2024, 12:44:04 PMI think many people also explained how I feel and the last post by Dave said it best. Yes, Jones had a decent year compared to many of the terrible years.
I'm sorry but fans (and I don't mean you specifically) keep telling us how Jones lacks certain things for a QB to be successful. True, but how many QBs in the league have a perfect system, great OL great WRs, and a good running game.
Anyone can succeed in those conditions. What separates the winners from the losers is that the good ones can overcome obstacles and still succeed. Jones is just not in that category. Everything needs to be perfect for him to have success and that is still not what the Giants offer. He simply cannot overcome certain things that other good QBs can. We have given him plenty of things now, so overall, I hope you are right, but I seriously doubt it. Jones is what Jones is, an average QB who can make certain throws in the right circumstances but when he is asked to do more, he cannot. That is why he succeeded in the years you mentioned. He wasn't asked to do more than he was able to, we got a year of lucky ounces and breaks and we won. His numbers, as far as league wise, were average at best, but compared to his numbers from other years, he was successful. Nabors might get him a few more yards and completions, but that is about all.

I hear all the time what's with the Jones hate. First of all, there is no hate. It's a judgement on his play, that's all. I don't understand the "love." I've been watching him and football for over five decades. I have not seen Jones do what great QBs do, overcome odds and carry the team to victory. It has never happened. Well, okay, in the fourth quarter against a pitiful Arizona team last year. And yes, he had a very good game against a Minnesota team whose defense was abysmal. Beyond that. Nothing. I listed the rankings I felt of the current QBs. Jones was number 21. Maybe Nabers and a better offensive line will bump him up to 15 or 16. That's the ceiling folks. He's never shown anything beyond that. I know why they didn't draft a QB. I know this franchise and how it works. They knew New England was never going to trade out of #3 so posturing with those picks was just that. And when they passed on McCarthy they never were serious about getting a QB. They signed Jones to big money. They want to get something out of that if they can. I get it. But we fans have to wait now until 2025 or beyond for hope. At least that's how I feel.

Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on April 27, 2024, 10:41:02 AMGoodell should mull stepping away, he's systematically ruining the NFL.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Might be true, but they are a money machine and the owners love it.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 26, 2024, 05:15:02 PMJust don't see Penix being the one they want to trade unless he plays terribly or gets hurt again.

It's a terrible situation for Penix. If he went to Denver or the Raiders he would have a chance to start. Atlanta picks him up and he has to sit and know the only way he gets in is if Cousins gets hurt. I feel bad for the kid.

DB or interior offensive line. I wouldn't draft a rb until day three.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 26, 2024, 12:23:13 PMIf DJ got to 12th (where Hurts is), I dont think we'd have the Eagles record because they have so many better players than the Giants do.  To be the Eagles DJ would have to be more like 5th - 7th or 12th with all the Giants players getting much better.

I doubt DJ can be 5th-7th.

That's how I see it.

He's got a long road to climb to get into the top ten. And I'm sure one of the rookies will emerge as well.

As of today, these are my rankings. The teams with all new QBs I just piled on at the tend of the list.

1. Mahomes Kansas City
2. Burrow   Cincinnati
3. Allen    Buffalo
4. Jackson   Baltimore
5. Stroud    Houston
6. Prescott  Dallas
7. Goff         Detroit
8. Stafford    LA Rams
9. Purdy    San Francisco
10. Herbert    LA Chargers
11. Rogers     Jets
12. Hurts    Philadelphia
13.  Cousins    Atlanta
14. Love        Green Bay
15. Lawrence   Jacksonville
16. Watson     Cleveland
17. Murray   Arizona
18. Mayfield    Tampa Bay
20. Carr       New Orleans
21. Smith     Seattle
22. Wilson     Pittsburgh
23.  Jones    Giants
24. Levis   Tennessee
25. Young, Carolina
26. Richardson, Colts
27. Minshew, Raiders
Bears
Vikings
Patriots
Denver
Washington

Feel free to reassemble.

Looking back on it, Nabers was always the pick. Sure, they flirted and teased with the potential QBs, but it wasn't going to happen. And if Nabers wasn't there, they would have taken Odunze. No doubt. They invested too much money in Jones to move on from him and not at least try to get their money's worth. They hope that providing him with a weapon like Nabers they can at least recoup some of that money in terms of wins. The Giants are a predictable, conservative franchise. They always have been, usually for the worse. That doesn't mean it won't work out this time. It might very well. But the track record with the Maras, father and son, has been, with the exception of when "outsiders" took control, pretty dismal. I'm old enough to have lived through so many of them and why I remain cynical. But time will tell on this pick and the choices they have made going forward.