Jones has a neck injury and from what i'm hearing, it's a different one from the last one. Does this give Schoen an easy out to draft a new QB and say it's safety for a possible career ending injury for Jones? Seems like this could tie everything up with a neat little bow if they decide to move on from Jones.
His play on the field this season is plenty reason enough to move on if they are in a position to draft a guy.
I am not sure you want to be the team that is in the market for a new QB because you ended the career of your last QB by failing to protect him.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 07:28:48 AMI am not sure you want to be the team that is in the market for a new QB because you ended the career of your last QB by failing to protect him.
I'm pretty certain NOBODY wants to be that team. But circumstances being what they are, Schoen has to do what's best for the team.
Plus, players get hurt all the time. Washington didn't end Theissmann's career because they failed to protect him from LT.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 07:28:48 AMI am not sure you want to be the team that is in the market for a new QB because you ended the career of your last QB by failing to protect him.
I absolutely agree, but if your QB is hurt and is a hit away from possibly being done, you have to consider a replacement sooner rather than later. This season has been a nightmare and some tough decisions are going to have to be made.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 07:54:15 AMI'm pretty certain NOBODY wants to be that team. But circumstances being what they are, Schoen has to do what's best for the team.
Plus, players get hurt all the time. Washington didn't end Theissmann's career because they failed to protect him from LT.
With what happened to Andrew Luck that didn't stop the Colts or Anthony Richardson from him being drafted by them this season. Philip Rivers had no issue signing with them and he was at the end of his career.
IMO what this will come down to is how the rest of the season goes and whether the Giants end up with a draft pick that has them in a position to draft a QB prospect that Schoen and this regime loves. I don't believe Jones's situation will dictate that with how his contract is structured.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 07:54:15 AMI'm pretty certain NOBODY wants to be that team. But circumstances being what they are, Schoen has to do what's best for the team.
Plus, players get hurt all the time. Washington didn't end Theissmann's career because they failed to protect him from LT.
This sort of circles to the point of why a young QB would want to play for the NY Giants. Consider this fictional exchange:
NY Giants: We would like you to play for the NY Giants and be our starting QB
Hot QB Prospect: That sounds nice, what happened to your last starter?
NY Giants: Ah, we let him take such a beating that it ended his career
Hot QB Prospect: My agent will get back to you
NY Giants: It will be different this time
Hot QB Prospect: Why should I believe that?
Sadly, as the author of this fictional narrative, I don't have a good answer to the question posed.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:08:05 AMThis sort of circles to the point of why a young QB would want to play for the NY Giants.
I don't see it as an issue at all. Doesn't even hit the radar for me.
Players get drafted to crappy teams each and every year. Not wanting to be drafted by a team and openly not going to a team are two very different scenarios.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:08:05 AMThis sort of circles to the point of why a young QB would want to play for the NY Giants. Consider this fictional exchange:
NY Giants: We would like you to play for the NY Giants and be our starting QB
Hot QB Prospect: That sounds nice, what happened to your last starter?
NY Giants: Ah, we let him take such a beating that it ended his career
Hot QB Prospect: My agent will get back to you
NY Giants: It will be different this time
Hot QB Prospect: Why should I believe that?
Sadly, as the author of this fictional narrative, I don't have a good answer to the question posed.
It's not their call to make. There are worse fates in life than being a high first round pick of the NY Giants. Ask Eli Manning who made sure he went to the Giants. It is ridiculous to believe a college QB would reject draft status for a year just to avoid being picked by a team in the biggest media market in the world.
With the exception of Eli Manning and John Elway back in the day, I don't recall a QB ever welching on the team that initially drafted him or outright told them not to draft him. Joe Burrow might be the latest example of a QB who was brought on to a pretty woeful team with a terrible offensive line, and promptly got hurt and missed most of his rookie year. Things have gone pretty well since then.
I'm not saying I think drafting a QB next year is the right move, I think from a salary cap perspective you're almost obligated to give Jones another year and shore up the offensive line as best you can in a single off-season.
Quote from: katkavage on October 11, 2023, 10:23:01 AMIt's not their call to make. There are worse fates in life than being a high first round pick of the NY Giants. Ask Eli Manning who made sure he went to the Giants. It is ridiculous to believe a college QB would reject draft status for a year just to avoid being picked by a team in the biggest media market in the world.
And ridiculous to believe one prior QB that didn't work out will make an elite QB prospect not want to play for that team when the QB prior to that played for 15 years not missing a start due to injury. It's taking one QB and one situation blowing it completely out of proportion.
Quote from: zephirus on October 11, 2023, 10:26:47 AMWith the exception of Eli Manning and John Elway back in the day, I don't recall a QB ever welching on the team that initially drafted him or outright told them not to draft him. Joe Burrow might be the latest example of a QB who was brought on to a pretty woeful team with a terrible offensive line, and promptly got hurt and missed most of his rookie year. Things have gone pretty well since then.
I'm not saying I think drafting a QB next year is the right move, I think from a salary cap perspective you're almost obligated to give Jones another year and shore up the offensive line as best you can in a single off-season.
Name, Image, and Likeness give QBs who still have eligibility new found freedom and flexibility. In the past, QBs had to pass up getting millions of dollars to stay in college, now, they can earn millions of dollars staying in college.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:34:20 AMName, Image, and Likeness give QBs who still have eligibility new found freedom and flexibility. In the past, QBs had to pass up getting millions of dollars to stay in college, now, they can earn millions of dollars staying in college.
Not if they are projected top 5. They get money in college but lose a year of a rookie contract that leads to the big pay day. Nope. Not happening. And who is to say a preferred team will pick them the next year? Or they could suffer an injury and their status sinks. The premise is a massive stretch to say the least.
Quote from: katkavage on October 11, 2023, 10:40:09 AMNot if they are projected top 5. They get money in college but lose a year of a rookie contract that leads to the big pay day. Nope. Not happening. And who is to say a preferred team will pick them the next year? Or they could suffer an injury and their status sinks. The premise is a massive stretch to say the least.
Massive stretch?
Carl Williams, Caleb's father, told Sam Schube of GQ that his son could return to school if he feels uncomfortable with the team that might select him:
"The funky thing about the NFL draft process is, he'd almost be better off not being drafted than being drafted first. The system is completely backwards," he says. "The way the system is constructed, you go to the worst possible situation. The worst possible team, the worst organization in the league—because of their desire for parity—gets the first pick. So it's the gift and the curse. I mean, I've talked to Archie Manning—his career was shot because he went to a horrible organization. I've talked to Lincoln [Riley], and Kyler [Murray] struggled because of where he was drafted. Baker [Mayfield] struggled mightily because of where he was drafted. The organizations matter. ...
He's got two shots at the apple. So if there's not a good situation, the truth is, he can come back to school."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10088461-caleb-williams-father-usc-qb-could-return-if-2024-nfl-draft-landing-spot-isnt-good
It's a massive stretch to say because Daniel Jones flopped for the Giants it means Williams or another prospect will stay in school an extra year. In that article the team that is mentioned as being unattractive are the Cardinals. And if Williams Dad talked to Archie Manning who orchestrated his son to be drafted by the Giants going onto have a HOF career it's extremely unlikely the Giants are a franchise that falls into what he is referencing. The QB's Murray and Mayfield were drafted by the Cardinals and Browns and have had a history of being bad. The Giants have had three regular Starting QB's this century. It's hardly a revolving door because one QB didn't work out.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:45:13 AMMassive stretch?
Carl Williams, Caleb's father, told Sam Schube of GQ that his son could return to school if he feels uncomfortable with the team that might select him:
"The funky thing about the NFL draft process is, he'd almost be better off not being drafted than being drafted first. The system is completely backwards," he says. "The way the system is constructed, you go to the worst possible situation. The worst possible team, the worst organization in the league—because of their desire for parity—gets the first pick. So it's the gift and the curse. I mean, I've talked to Archie Manning—his career was shot because he went to a horrible organization. I've talked to Lincoln [Riley], and Kyler [Murray] struggled because of where he was drafted. Baker [Mayfield] struggled mightily because of where he was drafted. The organizations matter. ... He's got two shots at the apple. So if there's not a good situation, the truth is, he can come back to school."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10088461-caleb-williams-father-usc-qb-could-return-if-2024-nfl-draft-landing-spot-isnt-good
There's possibility and probability. Yes, it's possible for him to go back to school. But the ramifications and potential scenarios where something could not fall they way they expect affects the probability. Sure, he *can* go back to school. But *will* he? Too many factors in play.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:45:13 AMMassive stretch?
Carl Williams, Caleb's father, told Sam Schube of GQ that his son could return to school if he feels uncomfortable with the team that might select him:
"The funky thing about the NFL draft process is, he'd almost be better off not being drafted than being drafted first. The system is completely backwards," he says. "The way the system is constructed, you go to the worst possible situation. The worst possible team, the worst organization in the league—because of their desire for parity—gets the first pick. So it's the gift and the curse. I mean, I've talked to Archie Manning—his career was shot because he went to a horrible organization. I've talked to Lincoln [Riley], and Kyler [Murray] struggled because of where he was drafted. Baker [Mayfield] struggled mightily because of where he was drafted. The organizations matter. ... He's got two shots at the apple. So if there's not a good situation, the truth is, he can come back to school."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10088461-caleb-williams-father-usc-qb-could-return-if-2024-nfl-draft-landing-spot-isnt-good
Unless he can orchestrate what team he goes to, this is all jabber and jockeying. Yes the reality is it is a massive stretch. And if he returns for another year, he faces the same scenario as this year. People got to understand that, unless you got a top pick via a trade, the team picking that high will be bad. This is a very silly scenario. Now if the Giants were Jacksonville or Houston I'd get it. Wait. Top QBs went there anyway. Ridiculous.
Or QBs could look at Daniel Jones and say "that guy got paid $40MM to throw 15 TDs? Imagine what I could get if I perform better!"
My point is not that anyone is, will, or definitely has such a reaction... but that we're in fantasy land prognosticating situations that are still in flux and outcomes that may never come to pass. If it's fun, I guess go ahead, I just find it wasted motion.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 10:52:35 AMThere's possibility and probability. Yes, it's possible for him to go back to school. But the ramifications and potential scenarios where something could not fall they way they expect affects the probability. Sure, he *can* go back to school. But *will* he? Too many factors in play.
If the Cardinals or Bears end up with the #1 pick and Williams doesn't want to go there it's more likely that he would pull an Elway/Eli. It's extremely far fetched that he would reject coming to the Giants because Daniel Jones flopped.
Quote from: katkavage on October 11, 2023, 10:53:48 AMUnless he can orchestrate what team he goes to, this is all jabber and jockeying. Yes the reality is it is a massive stretch. And if he returns for another year, he faces the same scenario as this year. People got to understand that, unless you got a top pick via a trade, the team picking that high will be bad. This is a very silly scenario. Now if the Giants were Jacksonville or Houston I'd get it. Wait. Top QBs went there anyway. Ridiculous.
And even Trevor Lawrence didn't refuse to play for Jacksonville after what happened to Blake Bortles and Stroud didn't reject playing for Houston with the revolving door they've been.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 11, 2023, 10:56:43 AMOr QBs could look at Daniel Jones and say "that guy got paid $40MM to throw 15 TDs? Imagine what I could get if I perform better!"
My point is not that anyone is, will, or definitely has such a reaction... but that we're in fantasy land prognosticating situations that are still in flux and outcomes that may never come to pass. If it's fun, I guess go ahead, I just find it wasted motion.
That's a good point it shows that the Giants franchise will be extremely patient and loyal to you giving you every opportunity to prove yourself whereas other franchise will look to move on after your rookie contract if you don't prove that you're the guy.
Daniel Jones did very little outside of being average. At times he played poorly for stretches. There has been more bad and average than there was great.
Yet he was paid big money
Coming to NY won't be an issue for anyone. There is no rush to start immediately, there will be time to learn, adjust, and acclimate. There will be another draft class, FA group, and some UDFAs to fortify the roster further than it already has.
Very few players the next 2 offseasons that can be labeled definite must re-signs as well with contracts expiring. Rookies will have a year too. People act and talk as if next season the QB will be the only new player on the team, which does not make sense to me
Quote from: katkavage on October 11, 2023, 10:23:01 AMIt's not their call to make. There are worse fates in life than being a high first round pick of the NY Giants. Ask Eli Manning who made sure he went to the Giants. It is ridiculous to believe a college QB would reject draft status for a year just to avoid being picked by a team in the biggest media market in the world.
Sounds reasonable..but Peyton wanted no part of the Jets as a first pick..and went back to the Vols. Just saying.. :scared:
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 10:34:20 AMName, Image, and Likeness give QBs who still have eligibility new found freedom and flexibility. In the past, QBs had to pass up getting millions of dollars to stay in college, now, they can earn millions of dollars staying in college.
While true, the QB in question would never even talk to the prospective teams that might draft him so the theoretical dialogue you crafted would never happen. If you're returning to school, you have to make that decision without any dialogue with NFL teams, and I believe you can't even sign an agent without spoiling your eligibility. The only info they might have is that you can request the NFL provide you with an estimate on what round you might be drafted in before making your choice.
Even if they were able to evaluate the draft order and feel confident where they might go, there's no stopping a trade-up after declaration for the draft, at which point you can't go back to college. Once you're in, you're in, and outside of pulling an Eli Manning, there's very little you can do about it other than potentially sit out an entire year and re-enter the draft the following year, sans a college season.
I'm not worried at all about top QB prospects refusing to be drafted by (ie play for) the Giants. Sure our recent history has been very poor but it's still a blue blood franchise. No team picking in the top 3 in any year is in good shape in the near term. A great QB can change all that. Look at Burrow in Cincy or what appears to be ongoing in Jacksonville with Lawrence.
The point of this topic was't, "Would a top QB prospect want to play here" It was about DJ's injury and if this gives Schoen an "out" or a built in excuse to draft a top QB. He could easily say we would love DJ to be our QB until he retires but he has had multiple injuries and this latest one could be the most serious. This is also a conversation that could be had with a top QB. We liked the guy we had but unfortunately injuries forced our hand and we had to go back to the well.
Quote from: WheresDayne on October 11, 2023, 01:05:31 PMThe point of this topic was't, "Would a top QB prospect want to play here" It was about DJ's injury and if this gives Schoen an "out" or a built in excuse to draft a top QB. He could easily say we would love DJ to be our QB until he retires but he has had multiple injuries and this latest one could be the most serious. This is also a conversation that could be had with a top QB. We liked the guy we had but unfortunately injuries forced our hand and we had to go back to the well.
Fair enough. Apologies for getting off topic.
Quote from: WheresDayne on October 11, 2023, 01:05:31 PMThe point of this topic was't, "Would a top QB prospect want to play here" It was about DJ's injury and if this gives Schoen an "out" or a built in excuse to draft a top QB. He could easily say we would love DJ to be our QB until he retires but he has had multiple injuries and this latest one could be the most serious. This is also a conversation that could be had with a top QB. We liked the guy we had but unfortunately injuries forced our hand and we had to go back to the well.
I think it comes down to where the Giants finish and where they are slotted to pick in the first round of next spring's draft. If they are in a position to draft an elite QB prospect due to a poor record this season that will be Schoen's out to draft a QB.
The oline Is bad but Daniel Jones does not help the oline at all, infact he makes them worse. I'd imagine Caleb Williams or Sheddur Sanders would play significantly better behind the same offensive line.
The oline can't be the excuse, CJ Stroud is playing behind a bad Oline, Burrow went to a super bowl with a bad oline. Elite Qbs lift up the people around them and Jones has never done that, ever.
With a different qb we likely don't have half the sacks the oline has given up currently.
Quote from: WheresDayne on October 11, 2023, 01:05:31 PMThe point of this topic was't, "Would a top QB prospect want to play here" It was about DJ's injury and if this gives Schoen an "out" or a built in excuse to draft a top QB. He could easily say we would love DJ to be our QB until he retires but he has had multiple injuries and this latest one could be the most serious. This is also a conversation that could be had with a top QB. We liked the guy we had but unfortunately injuries forced our hand and we had to go back to the well.
Jones' horrible play gives them the out. The earliest they could realistically release him is June 2025. So he'll be here next year unless some dumb team comes and trades for him
Would anyone go the Brock Osweiler route?
I would not but curious what others think.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 11, 2023, 12:56:35 PMI'm not worried at all about top QB prospects refusing to be drafted by (ie play for) the Giants. Sure our recent history has been very poor but it's still a blue blood franchise. No team picking in the top 3 in any year is in good shape in the near term. A great QB can change all that. Look at Burrow in Cincy or what appears to be ongoing in Jacksonville with Lawrence.
However, they see how terrible this OL is; they might even be playing behind a better line right now.
Quote from: AYM on October 11, 2023, 05:20:53 PMHowever, they see how terrible this OL is; they might even be playing behind a better line right now.
I just don't think these elite to generational QB prospects look at the precise current state of the current roster and base a potential 10-20 year decision on that. 40 year old QBs trying to win one more SB like Brady look at stuff like that. Not a 21 year old just entering the league. When you have a scenario where a QB prospect rejects a franchise it's more about the overall franchise and/or the location/market than it is about who is on the offensive line right at that moment.