It seems that KT's 5.5 sacks have satisfied many in terms of how the 5th overall pick of the 2022 draft has been playing. However, if you dig (using PFF because I can get the data) a bit deeper, the sacks seem to be covering up issues (admittedly, KT has played better the last couple of games).
5.5 sacks put KT on pace for a nice double-digit sack total.
HOWEVER
KT's pass rush win percentage
2022- 9.7%
2023- 6.9%
With so many sacks, one might wonder how that number could be lower. It's because KT has gotten the sacks but is lacking in other pressures like hits
So far in 2023 KT has 1 hit
In 2022 he had 12 hits
Missed tackle rate
In 2022 it was 4.2%
In 2023 it has been 12.5%
It appears that KT still has more work to do to avoid being considered not a bust or perhaps more likely a disappointment as a 5th overall pick.
Right now I think you take the sacks and then hope that he builds on everything else. We are in year 2 and he still has a lot of growing to do. So yay for the sacks and just hope everything else develops.
Answer: clean up sacks at end of longer plays not pressure sacks shortening a play because he dances and has no strength (power) moves.
When an edge/DE attacks with force and strength generated pressure, he will generate non-sack pressure. Thibs does notndo that.
He pressures lightly then as QB moves around with play taking longer he makes a sack. His sacks are more from coverage than DL instant pressure.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 25, 2023, 10:59:23 AMIt seems that KT's 5.5 sacks have satisfied many in terms of how the 5th overall pick of the 2022 draft has been playing. However, if you dig (using PFF because I can get the data) a bit deeper, the sacks seem to be covering up issues (admittedly, KT has played better the last couple of games).
Rich: Your hard work/analysis proves IMO only that you can't analyze just part of a season or a few games.
Although interesting, IMO it's not meaningful except in the narrowest of contexts.
Giants played mostly against top-shelf tackles in the first four games. Whether or not there's reason to continue to hold out hope remains to be seen as he plays (hopefully all of) the remaining games, IMO.
Bob
How many sacks would he have if Lawrence didn't apply pressure and put them right on his lap.
How is his pass coverage?
How is his Run Defense?
Tackling?
He wasn't just drafted to apply pressure and get sacks. Drafted that high you want the complete package.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 25, 2023, 01:54:25 PMHow many sacks would he have if Lawrence didn't apply pressure and put them right on his lap.
How is his pass coverage?
How is his Run Defense?
Tackling?
He wasn't just drafted to apply pressure and get sacks. Drafted that high you want the complete package.
I can't answer the first one, but...
(https://i.imgur.com/ZXzyyaJ.png)
He's not an impact player.
You don't need stats to tell you that.
Big disappointment - although I don't think it was wise to draft an ER in Wink's scheme either. He does not use them like most other schemes do. He schemes his pressure, and he needs his talent in the back 7.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 25, 2023, 02:13:50 PMI can't answer the first one, but...
(https://i.imgur.com/ZXzyyaJ.png)
Mic Drop...
BOOM
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 25, 2023, 02:29:28 PMMic Drop...
BOOM
Although he is improving. I'll give him that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 25, 2023, 02:30:39 PMAlthough he is improving. I'll give him that.
his pass rush win rate is significantly better the last 3 weeks as opposed to the first handful. I think it almost doubled.
Let me ask a question - is it at all possible that other teams think Thibodeaux is the Giants best edge-rushing threat and therefore game-plan specifically to neutralize him? How often is he getting chipped by a RB? How often is a tight end double-teaming him?
How many more pass-rushing attempts did he have on a per game basis last year? The Giants got routinely blown out early in the year - usually when teams are ahead that much they're running the ball to eat clock. If/when they decide to throw despite being up big, they're usually not putting themselves in a position to get sacked and do quick throws that minimize the risk.
I don't need stats, I watch film of him, the guy doesn't have the desire to be great, average player on one 1 contract course.
Quote from: umassgrad on October 25, 2023, 08:23:56 PMI don't need stats, I watch film of him, the guy doesn't have the desire to be great, average player on one 1 contract course.
Your point is the point. Just watch him. It's not like he takes plays off because he does not, but he does not ATTACK. He tries to dance around his blocker.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 25, 2023, 10:44:18 PMYour point is the point. Just watch him. It's not like he takes plays off because he does not, but he does not ATTACK. He tries to dance around his blocker.
But Is that scheme or effort? We don't know because the job edge defenders have in Winks scheme is completely different than any other defense.
In my eye test, I don't see the quickness as with Ojulari, it seems that he has tried to set an edge on most plays. That would be a reason for his not attempting an inside move (if he has one) due to his responsibilities. I do see that he has enough strength to fight for his position. I saw an interview with Tiki with him stating that KT is not happy with his role in the D. I, from what I have seen, was overrated prior to the draft.
Overall Thibodeaux has been disappointing relative to expectations, which were very high. I don't see how there is much debate against that point. Having said that, his case is different from Neal's. Neal has been awful and a total liability. Thibs has been more mediocre, but unlike Neal he has at least shown some flashes here and there, and he seems to be slowly improving. So I remain uncertain about him overall despite being disappointed to this point.
Quote from: zephirus on October 25, 2023, 05:22:07 PMLet me ask a question - is it at all possible that other teams think Thibodeaux is the Giants best edge-rushing threat and therefore game-plan specifically to neutralize him? How often is he getting chipped by a RB? How often is a tight end double-teaming him?
How many more pass-rushing attempts did he have on a per game basis last year? The Giants got routinely blown out early in the year - usually when teams are ahead that much they're running the ball to eat clock. If/when they decide to throw despite being up big, they're usually not putting themselves in a position to get sacked and do quick throws that minimize the risk.
Lee:... not to mention Ojulari's seemingly endless and exasperating inability to stay healthy. It sure would help a younger guy like number 5 to have someone on the other side of the line about whom opponents must worry. Bob
https://x.com/wfan660/status/1717284921977282673?
https://x.com/carlbanksgiii/status/1717367830880911737?
https://x.com/bobbyskinner_/status/1717246989157507201?
If Number 5 didn't drop the pick-six, would we have any of this stuff during a relatively "slow" sports news week?
Banks is reading the headlines and not looking deeper. Thibs 1.5 sacks against lowly Commanders. Adjust for that.
How does Thibs do against playoff caliber teams?
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 26, 2023, 08:41:16 AMIf Number 5 didn't drop the pick-six, would we have any of this stuff during a relatively "slow" sports news week?
Not a fan of other sports? MLB just has 2 wild Championship games that went to game 7s with the World Series starting tomorrow, The NBA tips season tips off this week and the NHL featured it's entire league for one night on Tuesday.
Banks is kinda right. This is sort of weird. It does remind me a bit of the OBJ situation too. Where it doesn't much matter what he does on the field, some people just aren't going to like him and try to find reasons to justify it. So he's not Michael Strahan, a first ballot HOF player, in year 2. He's shown plenty to indicate that he's going to be a good to great player with a little development.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 26, 2023, 02:40:47 PMBanks is kinda right. This is sort of weird. It does remind me a bit of the OBJ situation too. Where it doesn't much matter what he does on the field, some people just aren't going to like him and try to find reasons to justify it. So he's not Michael Strahan, a first ballot HOF player, in year 2. He's shown plenty to indicate that he's going to be a good to great player with a little development.
Last year he didn't have many sacks, but a good PFF grade and was clearly affecting the game. People complained. This season, he's got a crummy PFF grade, disappears for portions of the game... but has picked up a good number of sacks and has been in position in coverage for takeaways (though hasn't converted). People are complaining.
I see a second-year player with talent who is putting up some numbers. Do I want more of the #5 overall pick? Of course. But am I going to kill the guy? No.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 26, 2023, 02:40:47 PMBanks is kinda right. This is sort of weird. It does remind me a bit of the OBJ situation too. Where it doesn't much matter what he does on the field, some people just aren't going to like him and try to find reasons to justify it. So he's not Michael Strahan, a first ballot HOF player, in year 2. He's shown plenty to indicate that he's going to be a good to great player with a little development.
Ironically he is closer to Carl Banks, also a top 5 pick, who didn't explode until his 3rd season in 86. Banks split starts/playing time with Byron Hunt and Andy Headon and had 6 sacks his first 2 seasons. Banks went from 31 tackles to 113 from season 2 to 3!
No wonder Banks defends Thibs because he sees himself.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 25, 2023, 02:13:50 PMI can't answer the first one, but...
(https://i.imgur.com/ZXzyyaJ.png)
run defense is terrible. he needs to spend less time staring at himself and more time in the gym.
KT is playing very well. Wink asks him to do a lot of things. He absorbs lots of double teams. He has massively improved against the run. And he is finishing plays with high effort. The vitriol against this guy boggles my mind. I just don't get it. Wink has never had an edge with double digit sacks. Thibs is gonna be the guy to change that.
According to Wink Martindale Thibs is the cog that drives this defense. Doesn't sound like he shares the same opinion of Thibs that many here do.
https://x.com/mattcitak/status/1717639786662445123?s=46&t=4x-JXwsXYehIZ1h3v6r-zQ
Quote from: madbadger on October 26, 2023, 08:30:34 PMAccording to Wink Martindale Thibs is the cog that drives this defense. Doesn't sound like he shares the same opinion of Thibs that many here do.
https://x.com/mattcitak/status/1717639786662445123?s=46&t=4x-JXwsXYehIZ1h3v6r-zQ
madb: Do you think the fact that they mentioned Number 5 specifically had anything to do with all the griping in the sports media recently? Just wondering. Bob
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 26, 2023, 03:10:09 PMLast year he didn't have many sacks, but a good PFF grade and was clearly affecting the game. People complained. This season, he's got a crummy PFF grade, disappears for portions of the game... but has picked up a good number of sacks and has been in position in coverage for takeaways (though hasn't converted). People are complaining.
I see a second-year player with talent who is putting up some numbers. Do I want more of the #5 overall pick? Of course. But am I going to kill the guy? No.
What intrigues me is the same posters who claim we need more than 60 games to evaluate our QB, are the same ones who labeled Thibs a bust, even though the latter has played 40 less games than the former; it's an interesting dichotomy. Regardless, you captured how I feel, H, which is to say Thibs is a good football; however, like you, I'm hoping he becomes more.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 27, 2023, 07:48:13 AMWhat intrigues me is the same posters who claim we need more than 60 games to evaluate our QB, are the same ones who labeled Thibs a bust, even though the latter has played 40 less games than the former; it's an interesting dichotomy. Regardless, you captured how I feel, H, which is to say Thibs is a good football; however, like you, I'm hoping he becomes more.
He would have made a good second round pick.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 27, 2023, 07:07:22 AMmadb: Do you think the fact that they mentioned Number 5 specifically had anything to do with all the griping in the sports media recently? Just wondering. Bob
Wink doesn't strike me as being that type of coach. You get love from him when you earn it.
Quote from: madbadger on October 27, 2023, 04:49:10 PMWink doesn't strike me as being that type of coach. You get love from him when you earn it.
MadB: I agree with that, so IMO we must assume it's a true statement, or at least Wink believes it's true.
If Wink's happy with his play, then I think it's safe to assume they are not emphasizing sacks.
I also agree with that. Pressure is more important than sacks, unless the specific game situation makes a sack more important, like, for example, if you need to move the opponent out of field goal range to avoid a game-winning field goal attempt.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 28, 2023, 09:09:20 AMMadB: I agree with that, so IMO we must assume it's a true statement, or at least Wink believes it's true.
If Wink's happy with his play, then I think it's safe to assume they are not emphasizing sacks.
I also agree with that. Pressure is more important than sacks, unless the specific game situation makes a sack more important, like, for example, if you need to move the opponent out of field goal range to avoid a game-winning field goal attempt.
Bob
I think too many fans are either concerned with style points or expected him to be Von Miller or Micah Parsons and disappointed, and I think too many people are concerned with what he isn't instead of appreciating what he is.
Quote from: madbadger on October 28, 2023, 11:31:41 AMI think too many fans are either concerned with style points or expected him to be Von Miller or Micah Parsons and disappointed, and I think too many people are concerned with what he isn't instead of appreciating what he is.
The Giants definitely need stars. But they also desperately need above-average contributors (given how thin the roster was under Gentleman). At least Kayvon looks to be able to be the latter with the potential for more.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on October 28, 2023, 02:01:35 PMThe Giants definitely need stars. But they also desperately need above-average contributors (given how thin the roster was under Gentleman). At least Kayvon looks to be able to be the latter with the potential for more.
H-Town: I can't "like" this post enough. Bob
I wonder how those WFAN guys feel about the way they treated Carl now?
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He's having his best game of his young career today.
Quote from: madbadger on October 29, 2023, 03:15:58 PMHe's having his best game of his young career today.
This or the game in Washington last year. He was off the charts in that game too.
Quote from: madbadger on October 29, 2023, 03:15:58 PMHe's having his best game of his young career today.
For sure. He's a mudder.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 29, 2023, 03:26:01 PMFor sure. He's a mudder.
I think he's much more than a mudder.
Wrong thread. Edited.
I give him a 99 PFF grade so far. Don't drop the ball!
Players sometimes do develop and learn from experience.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 29, 2023, 03:12:01 PMI wonder how those WFAN guys feel about the way they treated Carl now?
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Which host gave him crap for defending Thibs? I can't wait to hear from Banks next time he calls in.
Quote from: TDToomer on October 29, 2023, 06:32:59 PMWhich host gave him crap for defending Thibs? I can't wait to hear from Banks next time he calls in.
Both of them. They hung up on him while they were crying that he had no right to tell them "how to fan"
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 29, 2023, 06:40:11 PMBoth of them. They hung up on him while they were crying that he had no right to tell them "how to fan"
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Both of which show? There are 4 different weekday tandems on WFAN.