In another post,
@andrew_nyGiants raised the issue that no official spotted the ball before the Jets lined up for the spike with one second left (which sent the game into overtime).
Has anyone heard or seen this issue raised or discussed anywhere else?
I have not checked the replay because I loaned my iPad to someone for a few days.
Bob
PS. Also is it actually possible to toss a 30-yd pass & spike the ball in 8 seconds? That's what happened.
Yeah, Boomer Esiason pointed out that the refs gifted the Jets the one second needed so they could kick a field goal. Pretty obvious...not that the Giants deserved to win, but it doesn't help when the stripes help the other team :no:
https://nypost.com/2023/10/30/sports/missed-call-gave-jets-chance-to-tie-game-boomer-esiason/
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on October 30, 2023, 01:56:50 PMYeah, Boomer Esiason pointed out that the refs gifted the Jets the one second needed so they could kick a field goal. Pretty obvious...not that the Giants deserved to win, but it doesn't help when the stripes help the other team :no:
Jolly: At this point I'll accept an apology and the higher draft pick we'll get by losing an additional game. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 01:50:36 PMIn another post, @andrew_nyGiants raised the issue that no official spotted the ball before the Jets lined up for the spike with one second left (which sent the game into overtime).
Has anyone heard or seen this issue raised or discussed anywhere else?
I have not checked the replay because I loaned my iPad to someone for a few days.
Bob
PS. Also is it actually possible to toss a 30-yd pass & spike the ball in 8 seconds? That's what happened.
The issue has been talked about much. Apparently, the ref only needs to touch the ball on the ground and this is considered a placement, but I`d still like confirmation from the NFL.
from the link:
One website that devotes itself to NFL officiating cleared the officials of wrongdoing on the play.
Football Zebras, which analyzes NFL rules and how officials perform, maintained that the back judge touching the ball was enough for the Jets to snap the ball.
"When there is a long completion the exact yard line of the ball is not important," the site wrote on its live blog. "What is important is for the umpire to spot the ball before the offense can snap the ball and spike it to stop the clock.
"The mechanics call for the back judge or a player to put the ball down. The umpire will then race in, touch the ball that is lying on the ground, and get clear of the offense so they can snap and clock the ball. The umpire's actions set the neutral zone and declare the ball ready for play.
"During this sequence, it is easier, safer and faster for the umpire to tap the ball and keep running forward to the defensive backfield."
Quote from: Fast Eddie Felson on October 30, 2023, 02:30:47 PMThe issue has been talked about much. Apparently, the ref only needs to touch the ball on the ground and this is considered a placement, but I`d still like confirmation from the NFL.
Fast Eddie: Thanks for posting this. I was never aware of such a rule.
It makes sense, I suppose (speeds up the game and is useful in precisely the situation where it was used).
I'd also like the NFL to confirm it (or someone who officiates, although pro rules may differ from others).
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 02:37:05 PMfrom the link:
One website that devotes itself to NFL officiating cleared the officials of wrongdoing on the play.
Football Zebras, which analyzes NFL rules and how officials perform, maintained that the back judge touching the ball was enough for the Jets to snap the ball.
"When there is a long completion the exact yard line of the ball is not important," the site wrote on its live blog. "What is important is for the umpire to spot the ball before the offense can snap the ball and spike it to stop the clock.
"The mechanics call for the back judge or a player to put the ball down. The umpire will then race in, touch the ball that is lying on the ground, and get clear of the offense so they can snap and clock the ball. The umpire's actions set the neutral zone and declare the ball ready for play.
"During this sequence, it is easier, safer and faster for the umpire to tap the ball and keep running forward to the defensive backfield."
Rich: Sounds to me like if the UMPIRE spotted the ball and the BACK JUDGE touched it, that's good enough.
Since that's what happened according to the NY Post, I suppose there was no violation of the rule.
Regardless, we still elevate our draft position by losing (a ray of sunshine in a cloud of despair? lol).
Bob
Love to know who operated the clock. There is no way that a 30 yard pass in the middle of the field could be set up for a spike within 8 seconds. Not even if all the players were Reynaldo Nehimyah.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 02:43:29 PMRich: Sounds to me like if the UMPIRE spotted the ball and the BACK JUDGE touched it, that's good enough.
Since that's what happened according to the NY Post, I suppose there was no violation of the rule.
Regardless, we still elevate our draft position by losing (a ray of sunshine in a cloud of despair? lol).
Bob
It's not what happened. The Jets player spotted the ball and the judge come in and touched it as Rich quoted Zebras. I posted a pic in the thread I started last night.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=68021.0
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 03:22:32 PMIt's not what happened. The Jets player spotted the ball and the judge come in and touched it as Rich quoted Zebras. I posted a pic in the thread I started last night.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=68021.0
One thing I noticed the Jets gave themselves a less than generous spot, the actual spot was about a yard further.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:26:09 PMOne thing I noticed the Jets gave themselves a less than generous spot, the actual spot was about a yard further.
Didn't matter in this case. What mattered was that he spotted it dead center.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 03:28:38 PMDidn't matter in this case. What mattered was that he spotted it dead center.
Ed: Once again, a factor that had escaped my attention. Was a center spot correct or not? Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 03:28:38 PMDidn't matter in this case. What mattered was that he spotted it dead center.
It looked like he spotted it on the right hash, which seemed like the correct spot (and also the one the kicker preferred)
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 03:30:47 PMEd: Once again, a factor that had escaped my attention. Was a center spot correct or not? Bob
Actually, I stand corrected. He did. It was spotted right hash.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 30, 2023, 03:33:47 PMIt looked like he spotted it on the right hash, which seemed like the correct spot (and also the one the kicker preferred)
The kicker's right side preference probably figured into the OC's play call. It would have figured into mine. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 03:46:43 PMThe kicker's right side preference probably figured into the OC's play call. It would have figured into mine. Bob
Actually the receiver came back from his corner route to extend time and get open for Wilson to get him the ball. Adoree Jackson completely blew the coverage perhaps thinking he has help on the inside which he did not.
Quote from: Fast Eddie Felson on October 30, 2023, 02:30:47 PMThe issue has been talked about much. Apparently, the ref only needs to touch the ball on the ground and this is considered a placement, but I`d still like confirmation from the NFL.
Why couldnt we do this at the 1 yard line when we ran out of time
Anyone see where Thibs is saying he wasn't offsides??? I did see him moving before the snap but doesn't mean he was offsides. Can anyone confirm if he indeed was offsides or not?
Quote from: sooners56 on October 30, 2023, 05:38:19 PMAnyone see where Thibs is saying he wasn't offsides??? I did see him moving before the snap but doesn't mean he was offsides. Can anyone confirm if he indeed was offsides or not?
tough to see even in the all-22. He definitely moved before the snap but he may not have crossed the plane before the ball was snapped. The line judge had the best view. I wouldn't have called it as it was that close
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 10:28:16 PMtough to see even in the all-22. He definitely moved before the snap but he may not have crossed the plane before the ball was snapped. The line judge had the best view. I wouldn't have called it as it was that close
These may be better shots.
Before saying the following I'd like to emphasize that IMO he was offsides.
The head must be behind the line at the snap. Number 5 has great body-lean (the distance measured from his feet to head at the snap) and, in any event, it looked like a foul to me during live action.
NEVERTHELESS, IMO each and every penalty that does not involve discretionary cogitation by the officials should be booth-reviewable. If you think that's "too radical" and would lengthen the game inordinately, then the rule should apply like other booth reviews... in the final two minutes of each half and in OT. There is absolutely no good reason not to have that rule. None whatsoever.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 11:13:05 PMBefore saying the following I'd like to emphasize that IMO he was offsides.
The head must be behind the line at the snap. Number 5 has great body-lean (the distance measured from his feet to head at the snap) and, in any event, it looked like a foul to me during live action.
NEVERTHELESS, IMO each and every penalty that does not involve discretionary cogitation by the officials should be booth-reviewable. If you think that's "too radical" and would lengthen the game inordinately, then the rule should apply like other booth reviews... in the final two minutes of each half and in OT. There is absolutely no good reason not to have that rule. None whatsoever.
Bob
The camera angle might show him incroaching when he may not have. Like I said, the Line Judge had the best view.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 30, 2023, 11:16:18 PMThe camera angle might show him incroaching when he may not have. Like I said, the Line Judge had the best view.
Ed: IMO that's not a good reason.
Like any other review, if the booth review isn't definitive due to the angle, then the call on the field stands.
IMO some teams/players get more close calls than others. It's like the Larry Bird syndrome (that man simply could not commit a charging foul no matter how hard he tried... but if anyone breathed on him... Katie, bar the door!
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 11:34:15 PMEd: IMO that's not a good reason.
Like any other review, if the booth review isn't definitive due to the angle, then the call on the field stands.
IMO some teams/players get more close calls than others. It's like the Larry Bird syndrome (that man simply could not commit a charging foul no matter how hard he tried... but if anyone breathed on him... Katie, bar the door!
Bob
Spoken like a resentful Knick fan Bob :) Larry Bird was the best. PERIOD
Quote from: Giant Obsession on October 31, 2023, 01:19:16 AMSpoken like a resentful Knick fan Bob :) Larry Bird was the best. PERIOD
GO: I was indeed a Knicks fan before the league made the game into a circus side-show. Good one.
As it applies here, however, some QB's get "breathed on" and it's a penalty. Otherwise don't get that call.
Come to think of it, I don't remember Eli getting many (if any) questionable roughing calls, and IMO he was the closest thing the Giants have had to "football royalty" throughout the 21st century.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 30, 2023, 11:34:15 PMEd: IMO that's not a good reason.
Like any other review, if the booth review isn't definitive due to the angle, then the call on the field stands.
IMO some teams/players get more close calls than others. It's like the Larry Bird syndrome (that man simply could not commit a charging foul no matter how hard he tried... but if anyone breathed on him... Katie, bar the door!
Bob
How about this Bob?
#NOTE THE RG FALSE START>https://x.com/TheDougRush/status/1719098885375680950?
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2023, 12:15:34 PMHow about this Bob? #NOTE THE RG FALSE START>
https://x.com/TheDougRush/status/1719098885375680950?
It seemed to me that KT went on the center looking down rather than when the ball was snapped (which was after the center looked down)
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 12:22:41 PMIt seemed to me that KT went on the center looking down rather than when the ball was snapped (which was after the center looked down)
The RG committed a false start before K moved.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2023, 12:42:05 PMThe RG committed a false start before K moved.
Ed: Not quibbling with that guy's conclusion. It won't surprise me if he's correct. Just want to reiterate...
Number 5 has almost superhuman "lean"; combine that with the rule that if your helmet's off-side, it's a foul.
It's not just feet. When watching live I thought he may have beat the snap. As you noted, view angle is crucial.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2023, 12:42:05 PMThe RG committed a false start before K moved.
I am not sure. It's tough to be certain, but I think he was in a 2-point stance. He is allowed some movement as long as he resets
Article 2. False Start
It is a False Start if the ball has been placed ready for play, and, prior to the snap, an offensive player who has assumed a set position charges or moves in such a way as to simulate the start of a play, or if an offensive player who is in motion makes a sudden movement toward the line of scrimmage. Any quick abrupt movement by a single offensive player, or by several offensive players in unison, which simulates the start of the snap, is a false start.
Exception:
This does not apply to an offensive player under the center who turns his head or shoulders, unless the movement is an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.
Item 1. Interior Lineman. It is a False Start if an interior lineman (tackle to tackle) takes or simulates a three-point stance, and then changes his position or moves the hand that is on the ground.
Item 2. Change of Stance. An interior lineman who is in a two-point stance is permitted to reset in a three-point stance or change his position, provided that he resets prior to the snap.Item 3. Eligible Receiver. If an eligible receiver who is on the line changes his stance, or moves to another position on the line or in the backfield, he must reset prior to the snap.
If an eligible receiver who is in the backfield changes his stance, or moves to another position in the backfield that is closer to the line of scrimmage or to a position on the line, he must reset prior to the snap. (For a backfield player who is moving parallel to or away from the line of scrimmage, see Article 7.)
Item 4. Player Under Center. It is legal for a player who has taken a position under or behind the center to go in motion, whether he has placed his hands under center, on his knees, or on the body of the center. However, it is a False Start if the action is quick and abrupt. If the player fails to come to a complete stop for at least one second prior to the ball being snapped, it is an illegal shift. See 7-4-8.
Item 5. Shotgun Formation. A player who is in position to receive the snap in shotgun formation is permitted to shift his feet prior to the snap, but any quick and abrupt movement is a False Start. This includes thrusting his hands forward when there is not a simultaneous snap.
Item 6. Attempt to Draw Offside. Any obvious attempt by the quarterback or other player in position to receive the snap to draw an opponent offside is a False Start.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 31, 2023, 12:15:34 PMHow about this Bob? #NOTE THE RG FALSE START>
https://x.com/TheDougRush/status/1719098885375680950?
That is close. Looks like he timed it perfectly to me but either way it was so close the ref should not have called it imo.
Quote from: sooners56 on October 31, 2023, 01:22:58 PMThat is close. Looks like he timed it perfectly to me but either way it was so close the ref should not have called it imo.
sooners: We see football with almost the same pair of eyes (not meant as an insult lol... I have lousy eyesight).
The important thing is that THAT is not the time for a call so "close" we still can't figure it out 2 days later.
Yeah, officials are human and make mistakes, but the "close" calls seem to go against certain teams and players often enough to cause me to wonder whether they are just random errors.
Bob
Quote from: sooners56 on October 31, 2023, 01:22:58 PMThat is close. Looks like he timed it perfectly to me but either way it was so close the ref should not have called it imo.
That was my point through all this. Too close to call in a critical situation. If I had my druthers, all penalties would be reviewed in the last two minutes of every game and in overtime. That would keep the flags in their pockets except for obvious fouls.