I only got to watch the first half if the game since I'm in a completely different time zone and it wasn't worth it to stay up for the second half but I was able to see DJ go down
I was one of the supporters but now his time is officially done (well it should be ). I knew after that first sack where it looked like he was tripped that something was wrong.
Did dj have his faults , definitely. I also think the dude was shellshocked .... Just looking at that replay his little mini steps he does has to be damaged fears from a bad o line.
Nonetheless it's no point of trying to move on with DJ if it is indeed a torn acl .... His. Biggest weapons was his legs and ability to run for the first downs . Not only do we have to worry about the neck now we also have to worry about his knee.
Whatever qb we get.... It has to be someone who isn't afraid to throw it down the field.
Our first three picks should be QB , o-line and whatever is the biggest need with the Seahawks pick
Sucks we are back to draft talk mid season as giants fans
Injuries aside, this was always the most likely conclusion to the DJ saga; thankfully, management understood DJ's trajectory and structured the contract to replace him as soon as next year's draft. In the modern NFL, it's difficult to be truly competitive with a QB who's incapable of throwing for more than 3500 yards in a 17 game season. If the Giants are in position to actually draft his replacement, we should all rejoice, as it gives us a chance to be competitive again, or at least not the boring/unwatchable offense we've been under DJ's tenure. Consider Houston, they were the NFLs worst team in 2022 at 3-13-1; drafting the right QB has propelled them to a 4-4 record, second place in their conference. They're averaging 24 PPG, compared to the 17 PPG last season. That's what a rookie QB can do for a team! Imagine if we had these numbers from a QB:
4824 Yards 30 TDs 2 Int
That's CJ current 17-game projection; remember, he has limited offensive weapons and he's still thriving. Obviously, not every team gets to draft a CJ; however, we should be excited about the prospect of drafting a QB capable of fundamentally altering our teams trajectory. At the very least, we may draft someone exciting to watch...
Quote from: killarich on November 06, 2023, 12:22:25 AMDid dj have his faults , definitely.
His biggest fault was being drafted by a team with a bad owner and incompetent football people.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 06, 2023, 01:10:37 AMHis biggest fault was being drafted by a team with a bad owner and incompetent football people.
I thought we would be over blaming others at this point...
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 01:17:54 AMI thought we would be over blaming others at this point...
You're right. The Giants have been superbly run for the last 5 years and Jones just dragged them down. /sarcasm/
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 06, 2023, 01:56:10 AMYou're right. The Giants have been superbly run for the last 5 years and Jones just dragged them down. /sarcasm/
Yeah, let's make hyperbolic statements to deflect; in point of fact, few people (one actually) claim DJ is solely responsible for dragging the franchise down. However, I believe we're past the point of pretending DJ isn't part of the offensive ineptitude we've endured the last 4 seasons. Should we hire a 4th HC and 6th OC and hope for a different outcome?
Was it Hyatts fault he got himself wide open, 50+ yards down the field to be delivered uncatchable balls? If you have the All-22, you would know this is a pretty routine occurrence this season (i.e. missing big plays). In 8 years (including College), DJ has NEVER been even an average passer, but let's continue to blame everyone around him /sarcasm/. Pray tel, was Cinci loaded with talent when Joe B arrived and totally changed the franchise trajectory? What about the great Houston Texans, a team that won a whopping 3 games last season...is CJ Stroud surrounded by superior talent? The notion that DJ is dragged down by those around him is a tired, and played-out narrative. After 5-seasons, Its really time to move on....
BTW, it's a neat trick to heap tons of praise on DJ for last season, while completely absolving him of 4 seasons of terrible play...
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 01:17:54 AMI thought we would be over blaming others at this point...
As opposed to making excuses for the terrible environment that caused 3 major injuries to starting QBs in just half a season?
There's plenty blame to go round in the whole DJ story.
He was overdrafted.
Had he been taken mid second or thereby, and gone to a functioning ball club, there's a fair chance DJ might've morphed into a decent standard NFL QB, maybe even an elite one.
Maybe not, maybe the "locking on" and inability to read the field was already ingrained.
Nature/nurture.
We'll never know.
But he was drafted 6 overall into an organisation whose dysfunctionality had squandered the latter, possibly peak, years of an elite QB.
I fear our team is destined for many more years as a "banter club".
After last season I thought we were finally on the right road. Were we the finished article?
Not even close, but I felt we were a well coached, well organised club....finally.
But this season we have been so obviously and hopelessly unprepared, for both the season as a whole and individual games.
On top of that, everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.
So where do we go?
We build, we evaluate, we raise draft capital, we scout.
Schoen has a helluva job on his hands.
Every coach's job is on the line.
Every player's job is on the line.
Harsh, honest, realistic, unemotional evaluation of every single employee of the New York Football Giants is Schoen's job...including self scouting and self evaluation.
If he's not up to the job......
It's past time to conclude the evaluation of Mr. Danial Jones and decide whether to keep him or cut him loose. No matter who's making the decision, it should be obvious by now as to what that decision is.
And, while I'm at it, the offensive play caller for the Giants [Ed.: Yes, Gentle Reader, the duality in 'offensive' is intentional,] bears scrutiny, with the same keep/discard question asked.
The New Jersey Giants are, like it or not, the doormat of the NFL. It need not be so next year.
Go, Big Blue!
Ownership's biggest fault is deluding themselves, beat writers, and the fan base into believing a mediocre talent is actually a franchise QB. It's the same playbook countless organizations have followed only to end up in QB hell.
Back to the thread topic, is this actually farewell for DJ? He has a guaranteed salary next season of $35.5 million. I would think that means he has to at least go through the motions of rehabbing with the Giants in hopes of resuming his career as a "franchise" QB. A lot depends obviously on the draft but also on the timeline for DJ's recovery.
They thought they had an Eli clone. Good guy but overall the talent is limited to what we have seen.
Quote from: Messiah717 on November 06, 2023, 07:44:27 AMThey thought they had an Eli clone. Good guy but overall the talent is limited to what we have seen.
Square peg, round hole. Just because he looks the part doesn't mean he was equipped for the role. Nice guy, but pretending he's the future because he says the right things despite being a habitual loser is ridiculous.
I was really hoping he'd do well enough to end the season that we wouldnt have to go qb in round 1. i dont think we have a choice now. on top of still not being very good, he is now officially injury prone. he's missed a lot of time over his career, and this is the most significant injury yet if indeed a torn acl. im not sure i buy the whole his mobility is shot thing, lots of guys come back fine from acl tears. barkley looked pretty good yesterday. but in any event, its a long shot for him to be ready to start the season next year. i think at this point, we HAVE to draft a qb in round 1, and let them compete in camp. it sucks. hate to see him go out this way. but maybe this was the most direct path to the inevitable.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 01:17:54 AMI thought we would be over blaming others at this point...
when the owner comes out and says as much, its undeniable. he DOES have his own faults. but a lot of them were born of the situation he was put into.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 06, 2023, 07:52:04 AMwhen the owner comes out and says as much, its undeniable. he DOES have his own faults. but a lot of them were born of the situation he was put into.
The owner has an agenda and palpable biases. But the Giants didn't "ruin" Daniel Jones--at worst they failed to develop an overdrafted project QB into something he had never been previously.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 06, 2023, 06:07:35 AMAs opposed to making excuses for the terrible environment that caused 3 major injuries to starting QBs in just half a season?
not to change the subject, but this is the main reason im not super keen on caleb williams. i watched the game against washington sat. this dude thinks hes michael jackson out there dancing and spinning around in the pocket. yeah it looks great when it works, but i dont think he'll be able to pull that off in the nfl. the dude fumbles ALOT, which is one of the main things people bring up as one of DJ's weaknesses, even though hes gotten much better with it. I want a traditional qb that has good enough mobility. maybe caleb is the next maholmes. but keep in mind maholmes is WAY bigger than caleb. DJ's injuries generally happened in the pocket, but TT's injury happened on the run. so i guess its tough to say either way. maybe we just need a better oline
Quote from: MagicRat on November 06, 2023, 06:38:15 AMThere's plenty blame to go round in the whole DJ story.
He was overdrafted.
Had he been taken mid second or thereby, and gone to a functioning ball club, there's a fair chance DJ might've morphed into a decent standard NFL QB, maybe even an elite one.
Maybe not, maybe the "locking on" and inability to read the field was already ingrained.
Nature/nurture.
We'll never know.
But he was drafted 6 overall into an organisation whose dysfunctionality had squandered the latter, possibly peak, years of an elite QB.
I fear our team is destined for many more years as a "banter club".
After last season I thought we were finally on the right road. Were we the finished article?
Not even close, but I felt we were a well coached, well organised club....finally.
But this season we have been so obviously and hopelessly unprepared, for both the season as a whole and individual games.
On top of that, everything that could go wrong has gone wrong.
So where do we go?
We build, we evaluate, we raise draft capital, we scout.
Schoen has a helluva job on his hands.
Every coach's job is on the line.
Every player's job is on the line.
Harsh, honest, realistic, unemotional evaluation of every single employee of the New York Football Giants is Schoen's job...including self scouting and self evaluation.
If he's not up to the job......
totally agree. everyone should be on notice. mainly the coaches. the way we have been outclassed 90% of the season is completely unacceptable. i remember lots of bad giants teams that we fought hard and just couldnt get the lucky bounce. but this is a new level of pathetic.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 07:54:47 AMThe owner has an agenda and palpable biases. But the Giants didn't "ruin" Daniel Jones--at worst they failed to develop an overdrafted project QB into something he had never been previously.
thats fair.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 06, 2023, 01:10:37 AMHis biggest fault was being drafted by a team with a bad owner and incompetent football people.
This! Until these change, we'll be having discussions about why the Giants suck year after year.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 07:54:47 AMThe owner has an agenda and palpable biases. But the Giants didn't "ruin" Daniel Jones--at worst they failed to develop an overdrafted project QB into something he had never been previously.
H-T: Which was worse - the handling of Jones by the Giants or the case of David Carr in Houston? Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 08:13:16 AMH-T: Which was worse - the handling of Jones by the Giants or the case of David Carr in Houston? Bob
i think the giants. houston was an expansion team. you can only do so much with that. the giants are a cornerstone franchise. its like comparing a bad steak from chili's against a bad steak from peter lugers.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 06, 2023, 08:17:43 AMi think the giants. houston was an expansion team. you can only do so much with that. the giants are a cornerstone franchise. its like comparing a bad steak from chili's against a bad steak from peter lugers.
B1: It was once the case that you drafted your supposed "franchise QB" first, expecting he might have to sit for one or two years (because you already had a starter).
In today's football, with the salary cap and other factors, you have to expect that guy to start playing no later than the middle of his first season (or sooner).
Today, IMO, you don't draft your franchise QB until you at least have an OL and one WR set. That was the Giants' mistake. They were operating oblivious to the changes that were occurring in the pro game, and they paid dearly for it. Sadly, Jones paid the most for the error (along with a few head coaches). But they were well paid so at least none of them will have to sell used cars for a living. lol
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 08:13:16 AMH-T: Which was worse - the handling of Jones by the Giants or the case of David Carr in Houston? Bob
I will say this about David Carr. The year Houston replaced him with Matt Schaub, Houston's offense improved from 28th to 14th with the same personnel. Then they had a top-5 offense the next 3 years.
It's easy to blame everyone but the QB. The reality is that David Carr was a bad player. Matt Schaub took the same cast of characters Carr had and made them look good. You have to give Houston credit for moving on from Carr and switching to Schaub so the offense could finally prosper. Sometimes it really is the QBs fault.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 06, 2023, 08:48:06 AMI will say this about David Carr. The year Houston replaced him with Matt Schaub, Houston's offense improved from 28th to 14th with the same personnel. Then they had a top-5 offense the next 3 years.
It's easy to blame everyone but the QB. The reality is that David Carr was a bad player. Matt Schaub took the same cast of characters Carr had and made them look good. You have to give Houston credit for moving on from Carr and switching to Schaub so the offense could finally prosper. Sometimes it really is the QBs fault.
That's a really interesting point, Doc and not one that's ever been pointed out re: Carr comparisons.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 06, 2023, 08:48:06 AMI will say this about David Carr. The year Houston replaced him with Matt Schaub, Houston's offense improved from 28th to 14th with the same personnel. Then they had a top-5 offense the next 3 years.
It's easy to blame everyone but the QB. The reality is that David Carr was a bad player. Matt Schaub took the same cast of characters Carr had and made them look good. You have to give Houston credit for moving on from Carr and switching to Schaub so the offense could finally prosper. Sometimes it really is the QBs fault.
But Doc, didn't Houston break David Carr? /sarcasm/
Say what you want about Jones at this point ....but the hard fact remains that the organization and football different game from not that many years ago are the also to blame.....back when Giants were pretty good from year to year and completive most years...the game has changed ...from players union rules , player safety rules, meaningless summer camps and preseason games ....a different type of player coming out of college and so on etc.etc.
To blame all of the woes of this team on a QB is not seeing the whole problem ....Football is a team game ... more so than most sports. while the QB is a very very important part of a football team ...he is not the only reason teams win or lose.
Now I liked Eli and thought during a different era.,,, yes , the Coughlin years(rules and practice were much different then) He played well most of the time and really good when it matter the most during SB runs. But remember he finished his career with a just a win or two over 50 % winning record.
and the last 7 or so years of his time with Giants was mediocre at best. In fact I think in the last 11 years... The Giants have made playoffs just twice. Once with Eli and once with Jones.
While I am not comparing the QB's I am comparing the Giants organation then and now...the game seems to have past by the Maras as they continue to influence many decisions on this team. .. In my opinion holding back GM's decisions as well as coaching decisions.
Until the ownership of a team lets their football people make football decisions they think are best for the team...winning becomes a challenge more often than not.
looking at this team ? do you see ant leaders ? Maybe Barkley. But when the coach has six or seven captains ? really ?
Is the coach and GM allowed to look hard at their staff ? and make changes ?
Maybe they are . not sure ... But this team is in trouble again and another high draft pick won't fix everything.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 07:47:16 AMSquare peg, round hole. Just because he looks the part doesn't mean he was equipped for the role. Nice guy, but pretending he's the future because he says the right things despite being a habitual loser is ridiculous.
H-T: I would eagerly agree with your analysis, and have a lousy memory, but from I can recall the same coaches and football people supposedly told Gettleman et al. the same things about Jones as they did about Eli. If true, then you can't limit your comment to only looking the part, IMO. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 09:34:13 AMH-T: I would eagerly agree with your analysis, and have a lousy memory, but from I can recall the same coaches and football people supposedly told Gettleman et al. the same things about Jones as they did about Eli. If true, then you can't limit your comment to only looking the part, IMO. Bob
Eli Manning never had a losing season as a starting QB at Ole Miss. He was arguably QB #1 in the top of a draft that produced 3 Hall of Fame-caliber players (in addition to Rivers, Roethlisberger). He threw for 10,000 yards in college. Daniel Jones was a 0-star recruit who did nothing of note in college and was in contention for QB #2 in his draft with a guy whose addiction issues were so bad he is now no longer with us. Sorry, but I can't get on board with any comparison between the two.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 09:44:08 AMEli Manning never had a losing season as a starting QB at Ole Miss. He was arguably QB #1 in the top of a draft that produced 3 Hall of Fame-caliber players (in addition to Rivers, Roethlisberger). He threw for 10,000 yards in college. Daniel Jones was a 0-star recruit who did nothing of note in college and was in contention for QB #2 in his draft with a guy whose addiction issues were so bad he is now no longer with us. Sorry, but I can't get on board with any comparison between the two.
H-T: All good points. I suppose all we can conclude is that they might have placed more value on the word of the coaches and other football people than on Jones' production in college. A factor could have been the composition of the teams on which Jones played (Duke not exactly being a football powerhouse). If so, then it's a lesson to be learned... better to take a guy from one of the professional college programs than from elsewhere (though as we both know a good number of truly elite NFL QB's have come from non-football-powerhouses). Bob
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 09:44:08 AMEli Manning never had a losing season as a starting QB at Ole Miss. He was arguably QB #1 in the top of a draft that produced 3 Hall of Fame-caliber players (in addition to Rivers, Roethlisberger). He threw for 10,000 yards in college. Daniel Jones was a 0-star recruit who did nothing of note in college and was in contention for QB #2 in his draft with a guy whose addiction issues were so bad he is now no longer with us. Sorry, but I can't get on board with any comparison between the two.
Haskins was a drug addict?
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 02:55:56 AMBTW, it's a neat trick to heap tons of praise on DJ for last season, while completely absolving him of 4 seasons of terrible play...
It would have been a neat trick, except for one thing. I never did that. I always maintained that last year's success was a mirage. You have me confused with someone else.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 06, 2023, 07:39:42 AMOwnership's biggest fault is deluding themselves, beat writers, and the fan base into believing a mediocre talent is actually a franchise QB. It's the same playbook countless organizations have followed only to end up in QB hell.
Back to the thread topic, is this actually farewell for DJ? He has a guaranteed salary next season of $35.5 million. I would think that means he has to at least go through the motions of rehabbing with the Giants in hopes of resuming his career as a "franchise" QB. A lot depends obviously on the draft but also on the timeline for DJ's recovery.
I was thinking that he is likely the starter week 1 next year. 10 months may be enough time for home to recover enough to start. I think even if they draft a QB, and Jones is healthy enough, he is the likely starter.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 12:46:36 AMInjuries aside, this was always the most likely conclusion to the DJ saga; thankfully, management understood DJ's trajectory and structured the contract to replace him as soon as next year's draft. In the modern NFL, it's difficult to be truly competitive with a QB who's incapable of throwing for more than 3500 yards in a 17 game season. If the Giants are in position to actually draft his replacement, we should all rejoice, as it gives us a chance to be competitive again, or at least not the boring/unwatchable offense we've been under DJ's tenure. Consider Houston, they were the NFLs worst team in 2022 at 3-13-1; drafting the right QB has propelled them to a 4-4 record, second place in their conference. They're averaging 24 PPG, compared to the 17 PPG last season. That's what a rookie QB can do for a team! Imagine if we had these numbers from a QB:
4824 Yards 30 TDs 2 Int
That's CJ current 17-game projection; remember, he has limited offensive weapons and he's still thriving. Obviously, not every team gets to draft a CJ; however, we should be excited about the prospect of drafting a QB capable of fundamentally altering our teams trajectory. At the very least, we may draft someone exciting to watch...
Reading a stat line from one year to the next then laying all the success or failure or to one player is misleading at best. CJ has helped for sure but other reasons as well which you don't know.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 06, 2023, 10:52:41 AMI was thinking that he is likely the starter week 1 next year. 10 months may be enough time for home to recover enough to start. I think even if they draft a QB, and Jones is healthy enough, he is the likely starter.
He has to be because he has a $47 million CAP hit. If they have committed this much of their team-building resources to him they simply cannot afford to squander their draft capital on a QB for a year or two. The Giants should be the ones auctioning off a high draft pick for a bunch of picks, including a 2025 first rounder, so they can continue building out this team and preparing to draft a QB in 2025.
I was an early DJ critic, but he showed me something last year. I really bought into the idea that the systems around him were the issue, not necessarily his talent. He didn't throw a ton of touchdowns last year, but making that offense competent with the weapons he had (and a less than competent defense) was an accomplishment. I thought the arrow was pointing up.
In the games he played he was really bad, in ways that Tyrod Taylor seemed not to be. And now whether Jones is any good is now moot because the Giants will probably be bad enough to get out of "quarterback hell" and draft his replacement.
It just seems like a massive waste of time. I still like Schoen and I think we can win with Daboll, but I also think it is ok in retrospect to say the massive contract for Jones was a mistake, whatever the escape hatch. This of course assumes Schoen thought he had any better options in last year's draft, but we are -- once again -- at least two years from contending.
I don't think it's farewell, maybe to his days as a starter for the Giants but he will be on the 53 next year.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 06, 2023, 11:02:44 AMReading a stat line from one year to the next then laying all the success or failure or to one player is misleading at best. CJ has helped for sure but other reasons as well which you don't know.
Have you watched a single Houston game this season? A rookie QB, on pace to throw for 5K yards, 30 TDs and 2 Ints and you don't believe that's the primary reason for the dramatic turnaround? No other position/coach can have this impact on a team. It's unique to the QB and why they consume nearly 10% of a team's aggregate salary.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 06, 2023, 11:27:34 AMI don't think it's farewell, maybe to his days as a starter for the Giants but he will be on the 53 next year.
Agreed, although unclear if he will right away. In fact I doubt it. I think he'll be on the PUP/IR intially.
The odds of him being the week one starter for the Giants are less than 10% IMO. Probably low single digits percent. Even if he is in the upper echelon in recovery time for this injury, I just doubt that they'll try to rush him back. They're likely going to be picking in the top 5, and it will likely be a QB. If they don't want to play that QB in week one, I doubt Jones will be the QB who does play. Maybe they'll keep Taylor for that purpose.
The reality (which I realize nobody wants to say today out of sympathy for his injury situation) is he has kind of proven beyond reasonable doubt at this point that he simply isn't a very good NFL QB. The sample size is very large. I have virtually no doubt that Schoen and Daboll can see this now, if they couldn't already. And even Mara must have taken notice of Taylor's relatively better performance against tough defenses under exactly the same circumstances Jones had (worse if you count the Ezeudu loss). So while the organization may be stuck with him for another year, I highly doubt rushing him back onto the field, either in week one or frankly at all (if they like whoever the new QB is), is going to be any sort of priority.
Assuming Jones wants to continue to play in the NFL, I think his future will be as a much more moderately priced backup/spot starter type.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 06, 2023, 07:39:42 AMOwnership's biggest fault is deluding themselves, beat writers, and the fan base into believing a mediocre talent is actually a franchise QB. It's the same playbook countless organizations have followed only to end up in QB hell.
Back to the thread topic, is this actually farewell for DJ? He has a guaranteed salary next season of $35.5 million. I would think that means he has to at least go through the motions of rehabbing with the Giants in hopes of resuming his career as a "franchise" QB. A lot depends obviously on the draft but also on the timeline for DJ's recovery.
I am completely fine with him being this Franchises Backup Qb but nothing beyond that.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 06, 2023, 11:50:21 AMAgreed, although unclear if he will right away. In fact I doubt it. I think he'll be on the PUP/IR intially.
The odds of him being the week one starter for the Giants are less than 10% IMO. Probably low single digits percent. Even if he is in the upper echelon in recovery time for this injury, I just doubt that they'll try to rush him back. They're likely going to be picking in the top 5, and it will likely be a QB. If they don't want to play that QB in week one, I doubt Jones will be the QB who does play. Maybe they'll keep Taylor for that purpose.
The reality (which I realize nobody wants to say today out of sympathy for his injury situation) is he has kind of proven beyond reasonable doubt at this point that he simply isn't a very good NFL QB. The sample size is very large. I have virtually no doubt that Schoen and Daboll can see this now, if they couldn't already. And even Mara must have taken notice of Taylor's relatively better performance against tough defenses under exactly the same circumstances Jones had (worse if you count the Ezeudu loss). So while the organization may be stuck with him for another year, I highly doubt rushing him back onto the field, either in week one or frankly at all (if they like whoever the new QB is), is going to be any sort of priority.
Assuming Jones wants to continue to play in the NFL, I think his future will be as a much more moderately priced backup/spot starter type.
Not that it matters, but I doubt Mara will admit Jones is not a good QB. He will continue to make excuses for his golden child. However, ultimately, Schoen will be able to press to Mara a non-talent related basis for moving on (i.e. Jones's considerable injury history). That will be inarguable and satisfy Mara's need to think he made the correct read on Jones's talent ("He could've been great if it weren't for these darned injuries!") while giving Schoen and company the clear to move on and start life post DJ.
Quote from: SlotCorner on November 06, 2023, 11:26:13 AMI was an early DJ critic, but he showed me something last year. I really bought into the idea that the systems around him were the issue, not necessarily his talent. He didn't throw a ton of touchdowns last year, but making that offense competent with the weapons he had (and a less than competent defense) was an accomplishment. I thought the arrow was pointing up.
In the games he played he was really bad, in ways that Tyrod Taylor seemed not to be. And now whether Jones is any good is now moot because the Giants will probably be bad enough to get out of "quarterback hell" and draft his replacement.
It just seems like a massive waste of time. I still like Schoen and I think we can win with Daboll, but I also think it is ok in retrospect to say the massive contract for Jones was a mistake, whatever the escape hatch. This of course assumes Schoen thought he had any better options in last year's draft, but we are -- once again -- at least two years from contending.
I don't blame schoen for the contract as I always saw it as a 2/3 yr deal because there weren't any better options at the time.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 06, 2023, 11:56:53 AMI don't blame schoen for the contract as I always saw it as a 2/3 yr deal because there weren't any better options at the time.
I agree. Cap hit for cut after the second year is rough but palatable, especially when you consider that if Jones is cut they're hitting reset that season and aren't likely to contend. I think Schoen was in a tough spot between Mara, a decent season from Jones, a playoff victory, and out of the top of the draft. He's going to get a chance to choose his QB and it will do more to define his tenure than any decision made to date.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 11:55:33 AMNot that it matters, but I doubt Mara will admit Jones is not a good QB. He will continue to make excuses for his golden child. However, ultimately, Schoen will be able to press to Mara a non-talent related basis for moving on (i.e. Jones's considerable injury history). That will be inarguable and satisfy Mara's need to think he made the correct read on Jones's talent ("He could've been great if it weren't for these darned injuries!") while giving Schoen and company the clear to move on and start life post DJ.
Yup, no doubt in my mind this is true. Mara can take solace in knowing he gave Jones a contract he never deserved, that no other team would have given him (even though Jones wanted more than that). Hopefully that's enough to assuage any guilt he may have about supposedly killing his career. Either way I agree - Schoen will have no problem convincing Mara they need to move on. I'm sure Tisch won't disagree either.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 06, 2023, 11:55:33 AMNot that it matters, but I doubt Mara will admit Jones is not a good QB. He will continue to make excuses for his golden child. However, ultimately, Schoen will be able to press to Mara a non-talent related basis for moving on (i.e. Jones's considerable injury history). That will be inarguable and satisfy Mara's need to think he made the correct read on Jones's talent ("He could've been great if it weren't for these darned injuries!") while giving Schoen and company the clear to move on and start life post DJ.
I didn't watch the game but was listening to it on SXM on the way home. I had a HUGE problem with the Tush Push call!!! Why would they voluntarily and deliberately force him into a pile of people with his neck issues???
Then, Rich started the thread about why Jones was in there even after an apparent leg/knee injury.
It got me to thinking... and I'm no conspiracy theorist. The other downside to this thought is that it puts Schoen/Daboll in a very bad light. My thought is that Jones would always get a favorable nod from Mara, essentially tying Schoen's/Daboll's hands. How are they going to rid themselves of a very pedestrian QB who is clearly not the answer???
Well, they certainly can't bench him due to stinking up the joint. Too many offensive line woes to put the blame squarely on his shoulders. The only way he wouldn't be able to play is if he is hurt. Now, I'm not suggesting that Neal and Peart are part of some insidious plan to get Jones hurt. However, in light of how they handled him this past game makes me wonder. :-??
Quote from: T200 on November 06, 2023, 01:48:25 PMI didn't watch the game but was listening to it on SXM on the way home. I had a HUGE problem with the Tush Push call!!! Why would they voluntarily and deliberately force him into a pile of people with his neck issues???
Then, Rich started the thread about why Jones was in there even after an apparent leg/knee injury.
It got me to thinking... and I'm no conspiracy theorist. The other downside to this thought is that it puts Schoen/Daboll in a very bad light. My thought is that Jones would always get a favorable nod from Mara, essentially tying Schoen's/Daboll's hands. How are they going to rid themselves of a very pedestrian QB who is clearly not the answer???
Well, they certainly can't bench him due to stinking up the joint. Too many offensive line woes to put the blame squarely on his shoulders. The only way he wouldn't be able to play is if he is hurt. Now, I'm not suggesting that Neal and Peart are part of some insidious plan to get Jones hurt. However, in light of how they handled him this past game makes me wonder. :-??
Tim: The thought crossed my mind, but it would be IMO out-of-character all around.
But take the same facts with a different "spin" on them and, to me, at least, it does make sense....
.... suppose the attitude is... "Mara is the owner so we get Jones out there as much as possible, just like Barkley, both of whom we're paying Pro Bowl money for.... and let them sink or swim. Either way, the team gets it's "money's-worth" (max service for max pay). IMO there's nothing "wrong" or "sour" about that attitude.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 03:44:51 PMTim: The thought crossed my mind, but it would be IMO out-of-character all around.
But take the same facts with a different "spin" on them and, to me, at least, it does make sense....
.... suppose the attitude is... "Mara is the owner so we get Jones out there as much as possible, just like Barkley, both of whom we're paying Pro Bowl money for.... and let them sink or swim. Either way, the team gets its "money's-worth" (max service for max pay). IMO there's nothing "wrong" or "sour" about that attitude.
Bob
Thanks Bob. It makes the thought a little more bearable, and plausible.
Quote from: T200 on November 06, 2023, 03:52:54 PMThanks Bob. It makes the thought a little more bearable, and plausible.
Tim: If we were talking in-person I would have done a better job.
Doing this through a typewriter makes it (for me) a lot more difficult.
I'm thankful that (apparently) my meaning somehow came through the screen. lol
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 06, 2023, 04:04:41 PMTim: If we were talking in-person I would have done a better job.
Doing this through a typewriter makes it (for me) a lot more difficult.
I'm thankful that (apparently) my meaning somehow came through the screen. lol
Bob
Bob,
Your thoughts came through crystal clear. The next time you have trouble communicating effectively will be your first. :ok:
It's exciting to think about a new top talent playing for us next year, but what can we do with the contract?? One big advantage of a rookie star QB is his entry level contract leaving room to pay the players around him. So this idiotic contract is still haunting us even if we draft someone really good.
I honestly think Jones had some trade value before this. Now I can't see it.
Quote from: StompYouOT on November 06, 2023, 07:11:09 PMIt's exciting to think about a new top talent playing for us next year, but what can we do with the contract?? One big advantage of a rookie star QB is his entry level contract leaving room to pay the players around him. So this idiotic contract is still haunting us even if we draft someone really good.
I honestly think Jones had some trade value before this. Now I can't see it.
The contract is going to hurt next year, will hurt a lot less in 2025 (about 20 mill) and be gone 2026.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 06, 2023, 11:44:17 AMHave you watched a single Houston game this season? A rookie QB, on pace to throw for 5K yards, 30 TDs and 2 Ints and you don't believe that's the primary reason for the dramatic turnaround? No other position/coach can have this impact on a team. It's unique to the QB and why they consume nearly 10% of a team's aggregate salary.
I have watched them. I agree CJ is playing great but other players are playing well too. Will Anderson looks good and is pressuring the Qb. Tank Anderson is looking like he is going to be good. Nico Collins has elevated his game. A new head coach in Demeco Ryans who according to players has been a great addition in creating a team culture.