In his latest podcast, Jordan reports he has talked to other coaches and people in the building and they are also were unhappy with Daboll.
Beyond being cursed out there were issues with being genuine. By that, he means Daboll isn't a straight shooter. Sounds like the coaching staff was turned off by some of Daboll's pettiness. They thought it was bush league to have Mckinney break down the team right after he publicly fueded with Wink. Raanan also mentioned Daboll had some issues with his former head coach in Buffalo.
Here is a link to his latest podcast. He also has Bobby Skinner on to discuss.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/newyork/podcast/archive/_/id/21067231
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 07:34:40 AMIn his latest podcast, Jordan reports he has talked to other coaches and people in the building and they are also were unhappy with Daboll.
Beyond being cursed out there were issues with being genuine. By that, he means Wink isn't a straight shooter. Sounds like the coaching staff was turned off by some of Daboll's pettiness. They thought it was bush league to have Mckinney break down the team right after he publicly fueded with Wink. Raanan also mentioned Daboll had some issues with his former head coach in Buffalo.
Here is a link to his latest podcast. He also has Bobby Skinner on to discuss.
http://www.espn.com/espnradio/newyork/podcast/archive/_/id/21067231
Wink or Daboll?
McDermott and Daboll definitely had issues. I did not like the way Daboll handled the Wink exit and I do worry that the 'pettiness' or as I termed it 'disingenuous' approach will hurt him inside the building, locker room and beyond.
This is why I keep saying it is incumbent on Schoen to support him with advice, training and incumbent on Daboll himself to reflect. I would ideally like him to add one or more calm, experienced and approachable guys to his senior staff to help balance him out and provide appropriate challenge and guidance.
It seems strange that all of these stories are coming out this week. The beat reporters have access to these guys throughout the season.
Are the Giants positioning themselves to sack Daboll in the coming days?
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 12, 2024, 08:02:22 AMIt seems strange that all of these stories are coming out this week. The beat reporters have access to these guys throughout the season.
Are the Giants positioning themselves to sack Daboll in the coming days?
I don't think Raanan is reporting Giant's sanctioned leaks
Seems like Daboll needs to simmer down the Daboil,according to the report. The tit-for-tat stuff with Wink hopefully is over. I trust Schoen knows Daboll well enough not to let these leaks be a detriment going forward.
Win games and all this nonsense magically disappears. Pretty straightforward what he's gotta do next year. Win games.
Wink Martindale is 61 years old and been in the league a very long time and he knows that his actions can tear apart a team and destroy a season. Yet, this is what he did. He was not just petulant but back stabbing and insubordinate.
Try to work it out? There was no working it out because according to Raanan, his mind was made up. You want to leave Wink? Wait until the end of the season and deal with it then. Otherwise all your BS is self serving. He basically caused a division among the coaching staff and most certainly got in the ear whispering negativity to anyone who would hear it.
So Daboll was disingenuous for attempting to hold the team together and shield his players from the BS? He was giving Wink a FU by giving him the game ball? I saw it as a peace offering and giving him credit in front of the players and the public. Was Wink's reaction, "Do you believe this fucking guy?" and continue his insidious actions?
Sorry Wink, but you're a fucking weasel. Be a man and not a child.
One other point to all this. Obviously, the Giants do not want to fire another HC after two seasons and continue the vicious cycle. The difference here is that Joe Schoen had a set of balls and not only stood by his HC instead of looking to save his own ass, but he cleaned house of the cancer.
Something Dave Gettleman and Jerry Reese didn't have the character and integrity to do.
Quote from: londonblue on January 12, 2024, 07:40:15 AMMcDermott and Daboll definitely had issues. I did not like the way Daboll handled the Wink exit and I do worry that the 'pettiness' or as I termed it 'disingenuous' approach will hurt him inside the building, locker room and beyond.
This is why I keep saying it is incumbent on Schoen to support him with advice, training and incumbent on Daboll himself to reflect. I would ideally like him to add one or more calm, experienced and approachable guys to his senior staff to help balance him out and provide appropriate challenge and guidance.
Neal,
I like your thinking. However, when I think about it, I have never really seen an external force (like a hire) turn around a head coach. It seems to me the change will need to come from Daboll himself, much like Coughlin. I think Daboll's changes may prove more challenging than Coughlin's. In Coughlin's case, he was fundamentally sound and a good man; he just needed to polish off the rough edges. In Daboll's case, game playing, vindictiveness, and controlling one's temper are more difficult aspects of one's personality to change.
Although, I will say one thing is odd. I think it's a bit unusual to be popular with his players but not well-liked by his own coaching staff.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 12, 2024, 08:35:26 AMWin games and all this nonsense magically disappears. Pretty straightforward what he's gotta do next year. Win games.
Agreed. Comes down to record/on-field performance. Losing brings all kinds of noise out, and every little thing is some huge drama. When a team is winning it all goes away.
Anyone who has had to swim with sharks understands that in order to right the ship and deal with the self serving, you need to fight back and not allow yourself to be eaten alive.
It ended the way it did because Wink wasn't going to be allowed to dictate how this would go down.
Anyone who hires this guy, is a fool.
He got what he deserved.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 08:48:36 AMNeal,
I like your thinking. However, when I think about it, I have never really seen an external force (like a hire) turn around a head coach. It seems to me the change will need to come from Daboll himself, much like Coughlin. I think Daboll's changes may prove more challenging than Coughlin's. In Coughlin's case, he was fundamentally sound and a good man; he just needed to polish off the rough edges. In Daboll's case, game playing, vindictiveness, and controlling one's temper are more difficult aspects of one's personality to change.
Although, I will say one thing is odd. I think it's a bit unusual to be popular with his players but not well-liked by his own coaching staff.
Mighty
Daboll has to want to change but having others around you that you respect and who can influence you helps the process. My sense is Daboll relies more on Schoen, given their relationship, than his coordinators (who were all new to him) for advice and a sounding board. I do not think that is healthy which is why I believe he needs guys he trusts in those roles.
Neil 😉
I had missed this during the season, but apparently how McDermott and Daboll met after the Bill's game had sparked talk of friction between the two coaches
QuoteAdam Zientek of AtoZ Sports speculated that there "could be some bad blood" between the two, noting that the short exchange was out of character for McDermott.
"The Bills head coach normally spends a little bit of time with the opposing coach, giving a few words of encouragement before heading out," Zientek wrote. "What makes this so strange is that the two have history, and were perceived to be close. I don't know about you but that exchange didn't scream friendship to us."
https://x.com/thadbrown7/status/1714084165509910985?s=20
https://heavy.com/sports/buffalo-bills/sean-mcdermott-brian-daboll-icy-postgame-exchange/
Quote from: londonblue on January 12, 2024, 09:12:33 AMMighty
Daboll has to want to change but having others around you that you respect and who can influence you helps the process. My sense is Daboll relies more on Schoen, given their relationship, than his coordinators (who were all new to him) for advice and a sounding board. I do not think that is healthy which is why I believe he needs guys he trusts in those roles.
Neil 😉
I agree; not only does Daboll have to want to change, but he has to first recognize the need to change. It's quite possible that Daboll saw getting rid of Wink and having the Giants organization smear Wink and his people with the NYG-sanctioned leaks as a victory. Coughlin was convinced that he needed to change when people close to him and in the Giants organization got Tom to understand that if he wanted to succeed, he needed to change his ways.
Schoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter. So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll). One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee. Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences. Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it. That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.
This is all very discouraging. Wink being gone is a positive based on the information that's come out. But Daboll seems to have his own issues that he needs to overcome. He has to "grow up" in a sense, if his internal wiring even allows for that.
To the point of winning as a cure all, I agree that winning is an excellent deodorant. But it doesn't necessarily cure what's rotten. The point is to win, so if you're winning no one cares about the grievances of certain individuals.
But are we talking about winning Super Bowls, despite clashing personalities? If so, then everyone will sign up for that. Or, are we talking about a team that can win some games but continually fails in the playoffs because, at least in part, key staff are either not aligned, don't trust each other, or otherwise have issues working together.
I think the concerns with Daboll's personality are legit and something he's going to have to work on if he wants to succeed in NY.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 12, 2024, 08:48:07 AMOne other point to all this. Obviously, the Giants do not want to fire another HC after two seasons and continue the vicious cycle. The difference here is that Joe Schoen had a set of balls and not only stood by his HC instead of looking to save his own ass, but he cleaned house of the cancer.
Something Dave Gettleman and Jerry Reese didn't have the character and integrity to do.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 12, 2024, 08:56:19 AMAnyone who has had to swim with sharks understands that in order to right the ship and deal with the self serving, you need to fight back and not allow yourself to be eaten alive.
It ended the way it did because Wink wasn't going to be allowed to dictate how this would go down.
Anyone who hires this guy, is a fool.
He got what he deserved.
The Giants hired Wink, so I guess we should include them in the fool category. I mean Wink is 60 with a long history in the league. So you would have to think the Giants had a pretty good idea of who they were hiring.
Also, being a GM is not about "having balls"; it's about keeping the peace and keeping things professional. On that front, Schoen came up short.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 12, 2024, 09:24:13 AMThis is all very discouraging. Wink being gone is a positive based on the information that's come out. But Daboll seems to have his own issues that he needs to overcome. He has to "grow up" in a sense, if his internal wiring even allows for that.
To the point of winning as a cure all, I agree that winning is an excellent deodorant. But it doesn't necessarily cure what's rotten. The point is to win, so if you're winning no one cares about the grievances of certain individuals.
But are we talking about winning Super Bowls, despite clashing personalities? If so, then everyone will sign up for that. Or, are we talking about a team that can win some games but continually fails in the playoffs because, at least in part, key staff are either not aligned, don't trust each other, or otherwise have issues working together.
I think the concerns with Daboll's personality are legit and something he's going to have to work on if he wants to succeed in NY.
Winning being the ultimate deodorant is true, but it does have its limitations. If the stink you are trying to cover up is strong enough, it may prevent winning.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 09:21:02 AMSchoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter. So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll). One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee. Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences. Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it. That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.
Rich: I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.
What is/was Daboll's "error of his ways?"
Is the error based on fact, opinion, supposition or media reporting?
Bob
Is Schoen someone who is a good mentor? Genuine question because his background in scouting isn't something that would say he had to be a good leader. Further, was Schoen unaware of how Daboll was handling the Wink situation?
Did Daboll fire coaches without the GM knowing? I would doubt that. Seems to me that Schoen was at least aware of the situation and it still got handled as it did.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2024, 09:30:36 AMRich: I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.
What is/was Daboll's "error of his ways?"
Is the error based on fact, opinion, supposition or media reporting?
Bob
Bob,
Ranaan reported that he has talked to coaches and others in the building. What Raanan heard was that Wink wasn't the only coach on the staff unhappy with Daboll. If Daboll was doing things "right", such comments would not be heard. Hence, the error of his ways. The way Daboll is conducting himself and treating his coaching staff (that he hired) is such that it's generating dissatisfaction among his staff. That is not good, and I think it's an issue that goes beyond my personal preferences and management style; I would say it's one of the universal foundations of management. You conduct yourself in a way where the people under you respect you and feel like they are treated fairly.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 12, 2024, 09:39:46 AMIs Schoen someone who is a good mentor? Genuine question because his background in scouting isn't something that would say he had to be a good leader. Further, was Schoen unaware of how Daboll was handling the Wink situation?
Did Daboll fire coaches without the GM knowing? I would doubt that. Seems to me that Schoen was at least aware of the situation and it still got handled as it did.
This is a good point. I have heard some NFL people say that the biggest challenge for new GMs is the people side of things. Spending long hours pouring over tape and writing reports does not do a great job of preparing you for a job where people skills are your number one asset. Schoen did spend time as an assistant GM which should have helped him hone his people skills.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 09:41:22 AMBob,
Ranaan reported that he has talked to coaches and others in the building. What Raanan heard was that Wink wasn't the only coach on the staff unhappy with Daboll. If Daboll was doing things "right", such comments would not be heard. Hence, the error of his ways. The way Daboll is conducting himself and treating his coaching staff (that he hired) is such that it's generating dissatisfaction among his staff. That is not good, and I think it's an issue that goes beyond my personal preferences and management style; I would say it's one of the universal foundations of management. You conduct yourself in a way where the people under you respect you and feel like they are treated fairly.
Rich: That's one possibility. Another is that, upon their being hired, each of the supposedly "unhappy" assistants/coordinators were told what was expected of them, and THEY didn't hold up their end of the bargain (whatever that might have been).
Another is that they're "unhappy" because they were called on the carpet and told that their performance was sub-par and they didn't like hearing the bad news.
Yet one more - Ranaan is full of crap.
Bob
There were other coaches not happy. Who? How many? The plural could just be referring to the Wilkins boys. They're gone. Ambiguity garners attention, and one's own interpretation. I saw a team lacking in talent, and with injuries play hard for Daboll. If the locker room resembled a High School cafeteria that would not have happened, and we would be picking 2nd or 3rd. You don't play hard and with a purpose without some unity.
Quote from: files58 on January 12, 2024, 09:53:59 AMThere were other coaches not happy. Who? How many? The plural could just be referring to the Wilkins boys. They're gone. Ambiguity garners attention, and one's own interpretation. I saw a team lacking in talent, and with injuries play hard for Daboll. If the locker room resembled a High School cafeteria that would not have happened, and we would be picking 2nd or 3rd. You don't play hard and with a purpose without some unity.
The only coach that Raanan mentioned by name was Kafka (there have been reports from others suggesting Kafka was less than happy).
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 09:21:02 AMI agree; not only does Daboll have to want to change, but he has to first recognize the need to change. It's quite possible that Daboll saw getting rid of Wink and having the Giants organization smear Wink and his people with the NYG-sanctioned leaks as a victory. Coughlin was convinced that he needed to change when people close to him and in the Giants organization got Tom to understand that if he wanted to succeed, he needed to change his ways.
Schoen, by all appearances, does seem to be a reserved, nice individual who is a straight shooter. So I also agree if there is someone who can get Daboll to see the error of his ways, it's Schoen (since Schoen should also recognize the issues and is very close to Daboll). One thing I am disappointed with Schoen is the GM should have played the role of peacemaker/referee. Raanan also reported there was no private meeting between Daboll and Wink to try to iron out their differences. Schoen should have insisted on such a meeting and likely needed to facilitate it. That's not happening, but it does make me wonder about Schoen to a small degree.
How is it that, according to you, there were "NYG-sanctioned leaks" to the media that, in your words, amount to a "smear of Wink and his people" yet Ranaan can talk to "other unhappy coaches" and that's not a smear against Daboll?
It really is quite comical how you can make a one-sided argument when you're the primary proponent of intellectual honesty here.
Maybe I am wrong but in spite of this spat with coaches, other than Xavier McKinney's outbursts about wanting to get paid, it seems very quiet among the players. I don't see any uprising with players protesting Dabs. They seem to be aligned under him. Am I wrong on that?
Toxic work environments can't be sustained. It can be ignored when things are going well though.
They shouldn't stick with sunk cost only for the sake of stability at the position.
It's time for Antonio Pierce to be head coach of the New York Football Giants!
Just win, baby. Do that and everyone is happy. Easy.
Quote from: T200 on January 12, 2024, 10:01:44 AMHow is it that, according to you, there were "NYG-sanctioned leaks" to the media that, in your words, amount to a "smear of Wink and his people" yet Ranaan can talk to "other unhappy coaches" and that's not a smear against Daboll?
It really is quite comical how you can make a one-sided argument when you're the primary proponent of intellectual honesty here.
Tim,
Over the years, I have not just listened and read what the beat writers have reported. I have been keenly noting patterns and indicators about who they talk to and how they report it. I am also very aware that teams and NFL coaches/front office/owners have two reputations: the one they have among fans and the one they have among NFL people in the know. I also know who reports what is discussed among the better-informed NFL people (like Mike Lombardi, for example).
It's funny how you liked Bob's comment that "Raanan is full of crap" because it doesn't fit your view that Wink was all to blame and Daboll barely did anything wrong. I mean, it's not like Bob (or you) can point to an incident where Raanan gave out bad information (another thing I do is track how often people are proven right or wrong). You can't point to that because I have not seen incidents where Raanan's reports have been proven incorrect or badly inaccurate. As for "Giants-sanctioned leaks", I was well aware of who the Giants go to when they want to "leak" information well before the Wink saga happened. When you are always trying to get to the truth, you are constantly evaluating sources.
Still, if you want to think my views are "comical" because they don't fit your perceptions of the situation, that certainly is your right, and I can see how such tactics will make you feel better about your beliefs. In the end, I feel quite comfortable judging the quality of information based on sources rather than on how much it agrees with my current beliefs. That is, despite your embarrassing claim to the contrary, at the heart of intellectual honesty and critical thinking.
Hell, even with my commentary, you are more keen to attack me because what I say doesn't fit your beliefs, that listen to what I have to say with an open mind, appreciating just how many hours I spend taking in information via social media, article, and podcasts and how carefully I vet the information I take in (I treat people providing me information like courts treat witnesses in trial, they need to prove to my satisfaction that they are reliable or if they are giving opinions they are qualified to do so.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 12, 2024, 10:07:43 AMMaybe I am wrong but in spite of this spat with coaches, other than Xavier McKinney's outbursts about wanting to get paid, it seems very quiet among the players. I don't see any uprising with players protesting Dabs. They seem to be aligned under him. Am I wrong on that?
From everything I have heard, the players like Daboll and enjoy playing for him. It's the coaching staff who are unhappy with him.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 12, 2024, 10:07:43 AMMaybe I am wrong but in spite of this spat with coaches, other than Xavier McKinney's outbursts about wanting to get paid, it seems very quiet among the players. I don't see any uprising with players protesting Dabs. They seem to be aligned under him. Am I wrong on that?
Phil: I've been puzzling over the McKinney situation.
The fact that his contract is up for renewal makes speculation nearly impossible (too many possibilities).
What I'd REALLY LIKE to believe is that Daboll & McKinney are/were more on the "same page" than Daboll & Wink.
IMO, he is one of the players on this team who just can't stand losing.
That's not a bad thing, and I'm counting on the leaders to talk sense to him (explaining that the team is as much on the verge of becoming a perennial winner as nearly every other team, so moving anywhere but to a sure-fire Super Bowl contender next year is probably going to turn out to be a mistake). And THAT assumes there IS such a thing as a "sure-fire contender next year" in today's version of the NFL (which I question now more than ever).
Bob
Quote from: T200 on January 12, 2024, 10:01:44 AMHow is it that, according to you, there were "NYG-sanctioned leaks" to the media that, in your words, amount to a "smear of Wink and his people" yet Ranaan can talk to "other unhappy coaches" and that's not a smear against Daboll?
It really is quite comical how you can make a one-sided argument when you're the primary proponent of intellectual honesty here.
Tim: Just now picked up on the fact that you changed your avatar (or whatever the correct term is). lol
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2024, 10:17:59 AMPhil: I've been puzzling over the McKinney situation.
The fact that his contract is up for renewal makes speculation nearly impossible (too many possibilities).
What I'd REALLY LIKE to believe is that Daboll & McKinney are/were more on the "same page" than Daboll & Wink.
IMO, he is one of the players on this team who just can't stand losing.
That's not a bad thing, and I'm counting on the leaders to talk sense to him (explaining that the team is as much on the verge of becoming a perennial winner as nearly every other team, so moving anywhere but to a sure-fire Super Bowl contender next year is probably going to turn out to be a mistake). And THAT assumes there IS such a thing as a "sure-fire contender next year" in today's version of the NFL (which I question now more than ever).
Bob
I think the other thing to consider with the McKinney situation is his skill set doesn't seem like the best match for Wink's system. McKennie generated better stats under Graham's system than Winks. I suspect it's because Graham favored more zone, which allowed McKinney to generate more INTs while the M2M focus of Wink's system didn't allow that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 10:15:00 AMTim,
Over the years, I have not just listened and read what the beat writers have reported. I have been keenly noting patterns and indicators about who they talk to and how they report it. I am also very aware that teams and NFL coaches/front office/owners have two reputations: the one they have among fans and the one they have among NFL people in the know. I also know who reports what is discussed among the better-informed NFL people (like Mike Lombardi, for example).
It's funny how you liked Bob's comment that "Raanan is full of crap" because it doesn't fit your view that Wink was all to blame and Daboll barely did anything wrong. I mean, it's not like Bob (or you) can point to an incident where Raanan gave out bad information (another thing I do is track how often people are proven right or wrong). You can't point to that because I have not seen incidents where Raanan's reports have been proven incorrect or badly inaccurate. As for "Giants-sanctioned leaks", I was well aware of who the Giants go to when they want to "leak" information well before the Wink saga happened. When you are always trying to get to the truth, you are constantly evaluating sources.
Still, if you want to think my views are "comical" because they don't fit your perceptions of the situation, that certainly is your right, and I can see how such tactics will make you feel better about your beliefs. In the end, I feel quite comfortable judging the quality of information based on sources rather than on how much it agrees with my current beliefs. That is, despite your embarrassing claim to the contrary, at the heart of intellectual honesty and critical thinking.
Hell, even with my commentary, you are more keen to attack me because what I say doesn't fit your beliefs, that listen to what I have to say with an open mind, appreciating just how many hours I spend taking in information via social media, article, and podcasts and how carefully I vet the information I take in (I treat people providing me information like courts treat witnesses in trial, they need to prove to my satisfaction that they are reliable or if they are giving opinions they are qualified to do so.
Rich,
Take a look at your comments above that I put in bold. What do they all have in common? I'll tell you:
Your incorrect assumptions and positing them as fact.
I respond to your comments that you try and pass off as fact. I come at your statements when you nitpick and isolate a small portion of a statement and make it the basis for your response. You leave out key information that is relevant. For example:
QuoteIt's funny how you liked Bob's comment that "Raanan is full of crap"
This was Bob's complete post:
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2024, 09:49:17 AMRich: That's one possibility. Another is that, upon their being hired, each of the supposedly "unhappy" assistants/coordinators were told what was expected of them, and THEY didn't hold up their end of the bargain (whatever that might have been).
Another is that they're "unhappy" because they were called on the carpet and told that their performance was sub-par and they didn't like hearing the bad news.
Yet one more - Ranaan is full of crap.
Bob
But according to you, I "liked" his post specifically and only for the Ranaan statement. That's why I speak on your intellectual dishonesty.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2024, 10:20:52 AMTim: Just now picked up on the fact that you changed your avatar (or whatever the correct term is). lol
Bob,
I "borrowed" it from the NY Giants app on my phone.
Quote from: T200 on January 12, 2024, 10:26:07 AMRich,
Take a look at your comments above that I put in bold. What do they all have in common? I'll tell you:
Your incorrect assumptions and positing them as fact.
I respond to your comments that you try and pass off as fact. I come at your statements when you you nitpick and isolate a small portion of a statement and make it the basis for your response. You leave out key information that is relevant. For example:
This was Bob's complete post:
But according to you, I "liked" his post specifically and only for the Ranaan statement. That's why I speak on your intellectual dishonesty.
Tim,
You are being very intellectually dishonest. It's clear you seek out what you WANT to hear rather than seek out the truth regardless of whether you want to hear it or not (as I am).
You don't think I wanted to find out our head coach is doing a great job and by parting ways with Wink all the problems are solved and I can look forward to great trouble free seasons ahead????
As much as I want to have optimism moving forward that we have the right GM and right head coach, I am not going to pick and choose what and who I believe to support that desire, as you are clearly doing.
I want to be optimistic, but I have invested too much time and energy trying to get to the truth, along with the skills and techniques I have developed.
One thing that ruins your narrative is I posted the link for the Giants Insiders podcast roasting Wink.
If I was this sinister, intellectually dishonest person you are disappointingly trying to portray me as (because I see things differently than you do), I wouldn't have posted it. I only would have posted things that fit my views (although that is very difficult as my views are always subject to change based on new information).
Tim, you are an admin; you should be setting an example to follow. That example should be discussing topics, not attacking people that you don't agree with, and FALSELY accusing them of intellectual dishonesty. People posting here should have to be having to defend their character. That includes your slander about me trying to pass off opinion as fact.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 12, 2024, 08:02:22 AMIt seems strange that all of these stories are coming out this week. The beat reporters have access to these guys throughout the season.
Are the Giants positioning themselves to sack Daboll in the coming days?
Jackson said both were great actors , never would of known there was an issue
Quote from: babywhales on January 12, 2024, 10:39:17 AMJackson said both were great actors , never would of known there was an issue
That is one positive takeaway. As bad as the drama got among the head coaches, at least it didn't spill into the locker room and impact the players. Hell, with all the chaos one could argue their last game of the season was one of the player's best efforts for the season
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-makes-brutal-outbursts-personal/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3tSBUmLbpLRleY9QtKKOfL4DZln-h2ykeQ7ulDKo_tkZ36oBRd4QE3n-A_aem_ATEtSBf20qWMgVzW6wSqUPPCEHf-PReUqexlUqZFiW3za2l_tCJ3aRzmVQMbS5NoU1M#lrat2vjum90wz6wn72
I just wish our team made headlines for quality play and not the constant losing and side drama
Quote from: babywhales on January 12, 2024, 10:42:59 AMhttps://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-makes-brutal-outbursts-personal/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3tSBUmLbpLRleY9QtKKOfL4DZln-h2ykeQ7ulDKo_tkZ36oBRd4QE3n-A_aem_ATEtSBf20qWMgVzW6wSqUPPCEHf-PReUqexlUqZFiW3za2l_tCJ3aRzmVQMbS5NoU1M#lrat2vjum90wz6wn72
Chris' link is a summary of many of the articles written. If you subscribe to the Athletic I suggest you read that article directly as there are a lot of good quotes from Dan's sources
https://theathletic.com/5194303/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-relationship-coach/
Quote from: Philosophers on January 12, 2024, 10:07:43 AMMaybe I am wrong but in spite of this spat with coaches, other than Xavier McKinney's outbursts about wanting to get paid, it seems very quiet among the players. I don't see any uprising with players protesting Dabs. They seem to be aligned under him. Am I wrong on that?
McKinney made it clear he was not even considering re-signing with the Giants if Wink was still around. Now it's at least a possibility that he comes back. To take that kind of stance would likely indicate he wasn't alone with that distaste of his DC.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 12, 2024, 09:30:36 AMRich: I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.
What is/was Daboll's "error of his ways?"
Is the error based on fact, opinion, supposition or media reporting?
Bob
Spot on, Bob. None of this is based on fact. It's all opinion and supposition based on an extremely limited view of things.
Which is why absolutely none of this manufactured drama means squat to me. As others have said, this is equal parts losing franchise + manufactured drama + off-season boredom.
One fact we know is that none of this faux drama kept the team from landing their #1 choice for OL coach. I'd think if things in the building were as bad as some are trying to portray, this would have not been the case.
Quote from: babywhales on January 12, 2024, 10:42:59 AMhttps://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-makes-brutal-outbursts-personal/?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3tSBUmLbpLRleY9QtKKOfL4DZln-h2ykeQ7ulDKo_tkZ36oBRd4QE3n-A_aem_ATEtSBf20qWMgVzW6wSqUPPCEHf-PReUqexlUqZFiW3za2l_tCJ3aRzmVQMbS5NoU1M#lrat2vjum90wz6wn72
No doubt Daboll should adjust his outbursts and save them for important moments. Otherwise he gets tuned out. I wonder how much of it was pushback from Wink's needling and being antagonistic.
I agree with Rich on one point. Schoen knew Daboll's personality and he had to know Wink's. He put two explosive Alpha Dogs together because he and I suspect Mara didn't want a new HC to have his attention fragmented, when the goal was to mentor DJ and fix the Offense. That failed on both fronts.
If Kafka stays, it provides continuity on that side. He however needs mentoring too and if he's too mindset on the KC ways and "we did it this way" attitude then he needs to move on too.
Schoen needs to support the hires that will work well with Daboll. I'm sure they do personality profiles as I did with my Managers and it's clear that there are certain teams that will work and those that will not.
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 12, 2024, 10:55:35 AMMcKinney made it clear he was not even considering re-signing with the Giants if Wink was still around. Now it's at least a possibility that he comes back. To take that kind of stance would likely indicate he wasn't alone with that distaste of his DC.
I heard a report that there were stories that McKinney wasn't coming back if Wink was still here, but I don't think McKinney made a public statement or publicly indicated that was the case. Still, it was clear there was no love loss between Wink and McKinney. Between McKinney's public call out of the defensive coaching staff and Wink's 8-minute counterpoint, this was another dispute the Giants failed to keep in-house and minimized. I will also add that from what I have heard Wink's departure does not mean McKinney will be coming back. He was likely gone regardless (which makes me wonder why Schoen didn't trade him when the season was effectively over)
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 12, 2024, 10:55:35 AMMcKinney made it clear he was not even considering re-signing with the Giants if Wink was still around. Now it's at least a possibility that he comes back. To take that kind of stance would likely indicate he wasn't alone with that distaste of his DC.
Thibs made a remark that he wants a podcast opportunity to speak because he knows the real deal. Although I suspect he's not on Wink's side, for sure he's on his own side. He should STFU.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 12, 2024, 10:56:14 AMSpot on, Bob. None of this is based on fact. It's all opinion and supposition based on an extremely limited view of things.
Which is why absolutely none of this manufactured drama means squat to me. As others have said, this is equal parts losing franchise + manufactured drama + off-season boredom.
One fact we know is that none of this faux drama kept the team from landing their #1 choice for OL coach. I'd think if things in the building were as bad as some are trying to portray, thus would have not been the case.
Good point on the Oline Coach hire. He probably sees this as a slam dunk opportunity to be a hero.
McKinney = Show me the money
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 12, 2024, 11:03:53 AMThibs made a remark that he wants a podcast opportunity to speak because he knows the real deal. Although I suspect he's not on Wink's side, for sure he's on his own side. He should STFU.
https://x.com/kayvont/status/1745174401736114505?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 10:36:22 AMTim,
You are being very intellectually dishonest. It's clear you seek out what you WANT to hear rather than seek out the truth regardless of whether you want to hear it or not (as I am).
You don't think I wanted to find out our head coach is doing a great job and by parting ways with Wink all the problems are solved and I can look forward to great trouble free seasons ahead????
As much as I want to have optimism moving forward that we have the right GM and right head coach, I am not going to pick and choose what and who I believe to support that desire, as you are clearly doing.
I want to be optimistic, but I have invested too much time and energy trying to get to the truth, along with the skills and techniques I have developed.
One thing that ruins your narrative is I posted the like for the Giants Insiders podcast roasting Wink.
If I was this sinister, intellectually dishonest person you are disappointingly trying to portray me as (because I see things differently than you do), I wouldn't have posted it. I only would have posted things that fit my views (although that is very difficult as my views are always subject to change based on new information).
Tim, you are an admin; you should be setting an example to follow. That example should be discussing topics, not attacking people that you don't agree with, and FALSELY accusing them of intellectual dishonesty. People posting here should have to be having to defend their character. That includes your slander about me trying to pass off opinion as fact.
Rich,
You're right... just like Wink.
You can say whatever you want without reprisal, whether it's true or not.
Everyone is supposed to take what you say as fact, no questions asked.
You can say someone is being intellectually dishonest, is slandering you, and you're correct. But if you are being intellectually dishonest and it's pointed out, you go on the offensive and talk about how I should be setting a better example because I'm an admin.
Here's the deal: you don't get to tell me why I liked another member's post. You don't get to change words around and say I think your "views" are comical when I didn't say your views are comical. You don't get to say I am keen to attack you when I haven't and then proceed to tell me why I would do so.
Typically I let stuff like this go but for some reason, and it isn't the first time, but it's these little nuggets of dishonesty that you slip into your responses really irk me.
I'll leave it at that.
Quote from: T200 on January 12, 2024, 11:10:50 AMRich,
You're right... just like Wink.
You can say whatever you want without reprisal, whether it's true or not.
Everyone is supposed to take what you say as fact, no questions asked.
You can say someone is being intellectually dishonest, is slandering you, and you're correct. But if you are being intellectually dishonest and it's pointed out, you go on the offensive and talk about how I should be setting a better example because I'm an admin.
Here's the deal: you don't get to tell me why I liked another member's post. You don't get to change words around and say I think your "views" are comical when I didn't say your views are comical. You don't get to say I am keen to attack you when I haven't and then proceed to tell me why I would do so.
Typically I let stuff like this go but for some reason, and it isn't the first time, but it's these little nuggets of dishonesty that you slip into your responses really irk me.
I'll leave it at that.
Tim,
Treat others as you wish to be treated, and stick to the topic at hand rather than false personal attacks because you disagree with someone.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 12, 2024, 10:41:12 AMThat is one positive takeaway. As bad as the drama got among the head coaches, at least it didn't spill into the locker room and impact the players. Hell, with all the chaos one could argue their last game of the season was one of the player's best efforts for the season
Seems like that is a very strong argument in Daboll's favor. I think your management analogies are way off base because a high pressure, out in the public, professional sports team is a different animal. Personally I think a military analogy fits better. And a leader who protects his troops from machinations of lesser officers is doing a good job. If there are other disaffected coaches they should be gotten rid of.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 12, 2024, 12:10:37 PMSeems like that is a very strong argument in Daboll's favor. I think your management analogies are way off base because a high pressure, out in the public, professional sports team is a different animal. Personally I think a military analogy fits better. And a leader who protects his troops from machinations of lesser officers is doing a good job. If there are other disaffected coaches they should be gotten rid of.
The defense played extremely well in that last game, so I have a hard time not giving credit to both men for this.
In the immortal words of Paul Simon:
QuoteAll lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
This is a pretty good summary of this discussion.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 12, 2024, 12:10:37 PMSeems like that is a very strong argument in Daboll's favor. I think your management analogies are way off base because a high pressure, out in the public, professional sports team is a different animal. Personally I think a military analogy fits better. And a leader who protects his troops from machinations of lesser officers is doing a good job. If there are other disaffected coaches they should be gotten rid of.
Exactly. More in line with Sun Tsu in the 21st Century.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 12, 2024, 12:52:02 PMExactly. More in line with Sun Tsu in the 21st Century.
Or Nick.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 12, 2024, 12:16:51 PMIn the immortal words of Paul Simon:
This is a pretty good summary of this discussion.
Rich,
This is very true. I know I was happy that Dabbs was hired, and I know his hiring was well received. I think we were all feeling good after last season, with NYG making the playoffs and Daboll winning coach of the year. It looked like the coaching carousel had finally stopped, and we got our next Parcels/Coughlin.
Just because we want to continue to hear good news and believe patience will be rewarded with championships doesn't mean we should be making efforts to get to the truth even if it makes us less happy.
Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.
My conclusion after listening/reading to folks like Ranaan and Pat Leonard is they are what my Granny called 'shyte stirrers'. They expend an inordinate amount of oxygen and ink on rumors and palace intrigue which apparently works for them. Look no further than the five pages of comments Ranaan's 'report' generated here on the board as proof that it does!
I don't need to know whose nose is out of joint or feelings bruised because Daboll might have yelled. Has no interest for me. Just do the job and win