Joe Schoen has to get it right in this draft. He has to. 20011 we won the super bowl; we were a team that fans were proud of. Ever since then...we have gone downhill in a huge way. Everything has gone wrong including the new stadium, the turf, the design, sucks too. Fans have enough. We blame the owner, the weapons, the QB and the coaching and all complaints are right. Daniel Jones got the contract, and some fans were happy, and some were not. I myself was ok with it. We looked as though we were trending up. I find it funny that some people say " you know we are stuck with Jones next year" NO xxxx...the good thing is the way it was structured. Basically, a two-year deal, after this season we can move on.
Say that a QB is not available at 6....what is more important? Linemen or Weapons?
A lot of people say get a lineman like Alt, but doing that would have him playing out of position. Add to the fact since the Giants drafted Jones, NO team has spent more draft capital on the Line than the Giants.
Some people say Jones doesn't have a #1 WR, then we should get him one. Rome Odunze or Malik Nabers should be there at 6.
Barkley is most likely gone, Waller maybe and Slayton. Fix the line with draft picks, but have no scoring threat? Then how good can the Giants be?
Drafting linemen has not worked out for the Giants. It is better going through FA getting linemen. Players who have shown the can play at this level. Yes, we don't have tons of money, but getting a few serviceable players are better than wasting more draft capital on busts or underperforming linemen.
Aside from Mahommes (although he has Kelce), the top teams have one or two #1 WRs. We need to do the same. Draft a true #1 WR and then in the 2nd round get a RB. Next it wouldn't hurt to address the TE position
My opinion is we need to fix the line before we can expect to see any real improvement on offense. I don't care if it's Jones or a draft pick QB or anyone else not named Mahomes, without shoring up the O-line they'll be running for their lives with no time to throw and no time to let plays develop.
We can draft weapons, but what good is that in the above scenario?
Draft pick or free agent, we need to get some nfl caliber linemen and hope our new Oline coach can work them into a competitive group.
It all starts in the trenches.
Quote from: ozzie on February 23, 2024, 11:04:06 PMMy opinion is we need to fix the line before we can expect to see any real improvement on offense. I don't care if it's Jones or a draft pick QB or anyone else not named Mahomes, without shoring up the O-line they'll be running for their lives with no time to throw and no time to let plays develop.
We can draft weapons, but what good is that in the above scenario?
Draft pick or free agent, we need to get some nfl caliber linemen and hope our new Oline coach can work them into a competitive group.
It all starts in the trenches.
Ozzie, the definition of insanity is " doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." We have poured tons of picks on the O-line. It's obvious it either the O-line coach or the scouting team missing on college players entering the draft. "IF" we fix the line and Barkley, Slayton and Waller leave, then who is our offensive threat? In the first round lets get a true WR#1 for Jones. We have two picks in the 2nd round...Find Barkley's replacement get Jonathon Brooks or Trey Benson in the 2nd round (after a WR with pick 6) and with the following 2nd round pick get a TE or Saftey (whatever is BPA). Purdy had more weapons than Jones. As far as using our 6th overall pick on a lineman? Joe Alt and Olumuyiwa Fashanu are the top two and both are true Left Tackles, why use such high draft capital on someone that has to come into the NFL out of college and immediately have to play out of position? Probably not such a good idea.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 23, 2024, 11:25:26 PMOzzie, the definition of insanity is " doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." We have poured tons of picks on the O-line. It's obvious it either the O-line coach or the scouting team missing on college players entering the draft. "IF" we fix the line and Barkley, Slayton and Waller leave, then who is our offensive threat? In the first round lets get a true WR#1 for Jones. We have two picks in the 2nd round...Find Barkley's replacement get Jonathon Brooks or Trey Benson in the 2nd round (after a WR with pick 6) and with the following 2nd round pick get a TE or Saftey (whatever is BPA). Purdy had more weapons than Jones. As far as using our 6th overall pick on a lineman? Joe Alt and Olumuyiwa Fashanu are the top two and both are true Left Tackles, why use such high draft capital on someone that has to come into the NFL out of college and immediately have to play out of position? Probably not such a good idea.
I understand the definition of ," insanity " but it does not apply to the Giant's situation on fixing the OL. In your scenario , how is the OL being fixed ?
QB is number one in today's NFL. After that the lines must be fortified. Weapons come close to last. Running backs and receivers are much easier to find than tackles, edge rushers, and especially QBs.
I wonder if the changing of the Oline Coach will cause complacency instead of urgency in the priority of improving that Oline.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 24, 2024, 07:45:08 AMI wonder if the changing of the Oline Coach will cause complacency instead of urgency in the priority of improving that Oline.
Ed: Even if you're wrong, we must hope you're right, because the line is far more important than the weapons. Bob
QuoteWhich Is More Important? Weapons, Or Linemen?
Lineman!
Winning teams build a great trench...then go after skill players. Building the trench first, is like building a house and having a strong foundation. You can make a house very pretty with expensive siding, fancy windows, landscaping, etc., but if the foundation is sand or alongside a cliff made of mud...then it sucks. That house is always going to have big issues and eventually fall to the ground or lost to a mudslide on a heavy rainy day
I would use the first 4 picks of the draft on both sides of the trench...but that's just me...and I'm just a fan with an opinion. But I'll always believe you start with the trench to be a dominate team in the NFL. Those guys get precious little credit, while the QBs and WRs get to play "rock stars" among fans and media, but it doesn't happen without the blue collar guys on the line
Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 23, 2024, 11:25:26 PMOzzie, the definition of insanity is " doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." We have poured tons of picks on the O-line. It's obvious it either the O-line coach or the scouting team missing on college players entering the draft. "IF" we fix the line and Barkley, Slayton and Waller leave, then who is our offensive threat? In the first round lets get a true WR#1 for Jones. We have two picks in the 2nd round...Find Barkley's replacement get Jonathon Brooks or Trey Benson in the 2nd round (after a WR with pick 6) and with the following 2nd round pick get a TE or Saftey (whatever is BPA). Purdy had more weapons than Jones. As far as using our 6th overall pick on a lineman? Joe Alt and Olumuyiwa Fashanu are the top two and both are true Left Tackles, why use such high draft capital on someone that has to come into the NFL out of college and immediately have to play out of position? Probably not such a good idea.
You are exactly right, the Giants
have poured a ton of picks into the position, but obviously they have either been bad picks or we've just had very bad coaching. Probably plenty of both. But that doesn't mean you stop trying to make it better. You can't abandon trying to fix the line just because you tried in the past and failed.
OK, so keep Barkley, Waller and draft a couple of stud "weapons", and you still have opposing pass rushers busting thru and creating havoc before Jones or anyone else has time to even hand the ball off. Schoen and Company MUST finally get this right!
Hard to speculate without knowing what we do in FA to address issues.
They are equally important although if they do not achieve significant improvement in the performance of the Oline in its run blocking and even more so in its pass protection, it may not matter what weapons they add, or even who's at Quarterback. And that has been so too often and for too long.
Whatever Schoen & Co. may plan for the future at Quarterback, a significant improvement in the Oline is prerequisite. As it stands at the moment, aside from topnotch Andrew Thomas at Left Tackle and a promising John Michael Schmitz at OC, the talent/ability of the rest of the Oline is either unknown or uncertain. That must be addressed in the Draft and I think FA as well with the future role of Evan Neal being something of a wildcard.
While I would be pleased to see them do enough for the Oline to allow them to add a weapon like Malik Nabers, all speculation and guessing on my part depends on whether or not they already have decided that Daniel Jones will NOT be the Giants QB next year. For me, that will determine how far they may be willing to go in looking for his successor now rather than waiting until next year.
Quite obviously we won't know unless they do something revelatory in this Draft accompanied by a rare level of Giants good fortune.
Cheers!
This question is a bit misleading when asked in terms of the Giants' 6th overall pick.
As
@Bob In PA said, they are both important.
Now, when you are talking about a high pick, the question should be: Which is more impactful? An All-Pro WR or an All-Pro O-lineman?
In terms of the Giants' priorities, it's not hard to argue the Giants need to fix the O-line. That said, the 6th overall pick is not required for that task.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 10:41:03 AMThis question is a bit misleading when asked in terms of the Giants' 6th overall pick.
As @Bob In PA said, they are both important.
Now, when you are talking about a high pick, the question should be: Which is more impactful? An All-Pro WR or an All-Pro O-lineman?
In terms of the Giants' priorities, it's not hard to argue the Giants need to fix the O-line. That said, the 6th overall pick is not required for that task.
People keep thinking that if the number one pick is not an offensive lineman that means the Giants aren't fixing the Oline. Same with WR. All can and should be addressed this off season regardless of the Giants first pick in the draft.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on February 24, 2024, 02:09:27 AMI understand the definition of ," insanity " but it does not apply to the Giant's situation on fixing the OL. In your scenario , how is the OL being fixed ?
It's not being fixed. The insanity is trying to fix it the way they've
been trying to fix it, and failed. Throwing high draft capital at it.
I believe in this draft with the 6th pick and the Giants already having their LT, the value best pick would be for a #1 WR, such as Odunze or Nabers.
The Oline is better fixed through FA and possibly one of the 2nd round picks. Not to mention guards are more easy to find in the later rounds than #1 WR.
Quote from: katkavage on February 24, 2024, 07:18:39 AMQB is number one in today's NFL. After that the lines must be fortified. Weapons come close to last. Running backs and receivers are much easier to find than tackles, edge rushers, and especially QBs.
WRs are very expensive in FA. Tackles and Guards are too. Again our draft picks have not produced..Get at least two FAs that have proven the can play at this level. The Free agent is Jermaine Eluemunor, who plays both RT and has played Guard, not flashy...but serviceable and affordable compare to the top dogs
The team needs to get better ply out of Evan Neal and JMS. For Neal, the third year is pivotal for long term planning. JMS? His play should improve as he's no longer a rookie.
So you pick Nabers ot Odunze? I think there's some serious consideration. I mean, look at what Chase did for Burrows when the I-line play was less than a x"excellent.
Quote from: Hadron on February 24, 2024, 01:47:17 PMThe team needs to get better ply out of Evan Neal and JMS. For Neal, the third year is pivotal for long term planning. JMS? His play should improve as he's no longer a rookie.
So you pick Nabers ot Odunze? I think there's some serious consideration. I mean, look at what Chase did for Burrows when the I-line play was less than a x"excellent.
Yeah but Burrow produced before chase and Jones isnt even a shell of Burrow.
Which Is More Important? Weapons Or Linemen?
Linemen
They're both important, but when you have a completely inept, bottom two or three in the league O line, it's hard to do much of anything on offense. If on the other hand you have a stout O line, you can still have a functional offense even with pedestrian weapons.
You can get by with a mediocre OL.
Mahomes just showed you can get by with mediocre WR.
It is a team game and generally speaking teams are as good as their weakest link, or at least as their ability to hide/protect it permits.
Our WR corps is currently mediocre.
Our OL and our DL/pass rush are both currently weaker links than WR IMO.
But you still take BPA at 6 which is likely a WR (the consensus is that the top 3 WR are all better than any of the top OL).
We have to use FA to raise the OL floor and hope Bricillo raises it more by improving one or more of Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan and Schmitz.
I know Neal is going into year 3 but Because of injury he hasn't played but a little over a season.
Consider that you now have a new Offensive Line coach who replaced a coach whose unit's performance was unsatisfactory when it counted most. So, how does this new coach impact the discussion for #6, if at all?
For the record, I'm in the "Fix the damn line" camp and continue to support that position. I also agree that they can fill those needs at Guard with picks in Rounds two and three.
Save pick six for an impact player and I don't care what position he plays. The criteria is simple. He steps on the field and tilts it. I'm not going to get cute about if this, that or else, then scenarios. I know what my needs are, but I also know my impact player immediately makes my other players better. That's who I want.
Peace!
They need a proven Guard who can step in and play at a high level. They can draft a Tackle who can start at RG and slide over if Neal doesn't have a breakthrough.
There hasn't been a successful OLine Coach for the Giants since Flats. If the talent isn't there, nobody can work miracles. I am however cautiously optimistic that we will see some marginal improvement and I would hope a decision will be made on Neal before the season.
Guards aren't that expensive in FA compared to other positions so we should be able to grab two starting guards and a swing for cheap.
There are three guards in this draft that are actual "difference makers", the way Zack Martin transformed the Cowboys' line:
Jackson Powers-Johnson (likely gone by pick 25)
Graham Barton (extremely cerebral, plays all 5 positions [very, very well, btw], but will be plugged in at guard...likely late 1st, early 2nd round pick...probably will be off the board when Giants pick in 2nd)
Zak Zinter (if not for breaking his leg in two places in his last game with Michigan, he'd most likely be the first guard off the board. Because of his injury, he'll fall to the 2nd round, or maybe early 3rd)
Any of those three will make an offensive line explode for the better
How does a WR run a 40 yard route without good pass blocking? Answer: He can't. Pass blocking is essential to a downfield passing game. If all you want to do is throw 4 yard passes it is less necessary but then again, a defense will bring one or two safeties in the box which will stop it. Need a vertical passing game or real threat of it and that takes pass blocking to generate time for a QB.
Quote from: Philosophers on February 25, 2024, 12:18:09 PMHow does a WR run a 40 yard route without good pass blocking? Answer: He can't. Pass blocking is essential to a downfield passing game. If all you want to do is throw 4 yard passes it is less necessary but then again, a defense will bring one or two safeties in the box which will stop it. Need a vertical passing game or real threat of it and that takes pass blocking to generate time for a QB.
Just ask Jalin Hyatt.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 25, 2024, 05:28:25 PMJust ask Jalin Hyatt.
Yes 100%. If pass protection was consistently good, he'd have had a lot more throws to him.
I know it wasn't asked but QB is still the biggest need.
We have 2 #2 picks and we can share up the OL there. I'm sorry but we aren't winning the SB this year, just trying to improve so there are more needs than a big time WR. Edge is a bigger need and then safety if McKinney leaves. A big time WR is nice but not for a struggling team. That can come next year.
Quote from: kartanoman on February 25, 2024, 10:34:37 AMConsider that you now have a new Offensive Line coach who replaced a coach whose unit's performance was unsatisfactory when it counted most. So, how does this new coach impact the discussion for #6, if at all?
For the record, I'm in the "Fix the damn line" camp and continue to support that position. I also agree that they can fill those needs at Guard with picks in Rounds two and three.
Save pick six for an impact player and I don't care what position he plays. The criteria is simple. He steps on the field and tilts it. I'm not going to get cute about if this, that or else, then scenarios. I know what my needs are, but I also know my impact player immediately makes my other players better. That's who I want.
Peace!
I have been pretty much all-in on a QB this year. But... that statement right there is enough to make me rethink my position. =D>
To the original question, it has to be offensive line. As JBG said, building a team from the trenches out lays the foundation for a successful team for years.