Let's say they just can't get a good deal to move up and don't even take a QB in the draft, and get a Tyrod Taylor type instead...
with Daniel Jones starting, adding another WR, and whatever.. I say this team has a ceiling of maybe 7 wins. Anything in the 3-4 game win range next season warrants the firing of both of them in my opinion.
Being generous in this scenario (4 wins), I'd fire Schoen for bad mismanagement of draft picks and contracts, and give Daboll one last shot with his QB next year given he's a "QB whisperer".
However obviously 3-4 wins with a rookie QB buys them another season at least for obvious reasins, hence why it's critical for their job safety they can get the right QB NOW.
What say you?
I think the leash is pretty long for JS - certainly until he picks his next QB.
For BD - it's much shorter. He's already fired a co—ordinator. So he's out of free passes.
Dabs gets next season to prove it otherwise he could be gone by end of year 3. If DJ does not develop under Dabs, if the Giants drafted players such as Evan Neal don't turn it around and become good players and in this draft the Giants lay an egg, I can see Schoen getting the boot as well.
https://x.com/2023_NYGIANTS/status/1762476556721815709?s=20
Whether they want to admit it or not, the Giants are in a rebuild. I want to see improvement, but in reality, I don't expect to see it in leaps and bounds. I think Schoen has the potential to be a good, solid GM and I imagine that if the Giants want to get serious about building a contender, they have to get off the new GM / HC carousel every few years.
Schoen must have had a plan when they hired him, so let him work it. After 5 years if this team is still a stinker, then make the change, but otherwise I think he will be safe for another 3 seasons.
As far as Daboll, I think the same, barring any more flare ups with the coaching staff.
Not sure how long of a leash I would give anyone, but I think if Daboll doesn't turn some things around this year he is gone. I don't think that means he has to win the division, but another feckless season, on offense in particular and I think he will be out.
EDIT: Just wanted to add, that even if they draft a QB, I don't think Daboll has more than this year to get things moving in the right direction. The biggest thing I don't want to happen is draft a QB this year, fire the HC at the end of the year and start over with a new offense with a QB in his 2nd year. It rarely works out well when teams do that (Goff is the only I can remember that got better in year 2 in that scenario).
Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 26, 2024, 11:25:40 PMLet's say they just can't get a good deal to move up and don't even take a QB in the draft, and get a Tyrod Taylor type instead...
with Daniel Jones starting, adding another WR, and whatever.. I say this team has a ceiling of maybe 7 wins. Anything in the 3-4 game win range next season warrants the firing of both of them in my opinion.
Being generous in this scenario (4 wins), I'd fire Schoen for bad mismanagement of draft picks and contracts, and give Daboll one last shot with his QB next year given he's a "QB whisperer".
However obviously 3-4 wins with a rookie QB buys them another season at least for obvious reasins, hence why it's critical for their job safety they can get the right QB NOW.
What say you?
How can you hire a new GM and not let him pick his own coach ? If you fire Schoen then you have to fire Daboll. They are joined at the hip .
Quote from: ozzie on February 28, 2024, 08:56:25 AMWhether they want to admit it or not, the Giants are in a rebuild. I want to see improvement, but in reality, I don't expect to see it in leaps and bounds. I think Schoen has the potential to be a good, solid GM and I imagine that if the Giants want to get serious about building a contender, they have to get off the new GM / HC carousel every few years.
Schoen must have had a plan when they hired him, so let him work it. After 5 years if this team is still a stinker, then make the change, but otherwise I think he will be safe for another 3 seasons.
As far as Daboll, I think the same, barring any more flare ups with the coaching staff.
But the problem was 2022. The mirage like success that season stunted the rebuild. They needed to understand you can't rebuild by mixing and matching. You have tear it down and build a new foundation.
No time frame. It's season to season.
The keys for me, in order, are:
- They must draft their own QB. If there's a guy they want in this draft, they have to do everything they can, within reason, to get him. If they can't get him this year, they have to look to next year. Jones is not their QB but he will end their careers the longer they hold onto him.
- Team improvement. The team has to show it is improving, within reason. As much as people say that 2022 was an anomaly, so was 2023. The injury bug bit again and there was no way to establish any type of offensive consistency.
- Player development. The coaching staff has to show that they can develop and teach the players to be productive at the NFL level. If Daboll and his crew can't do that, he needs to be let go.
Every year the team will be evaluated.
You have to think if they draft a qb early (at 6 or later)..you have to consider why and factor in the job security take with Daboll. If he feels running it back with DJ will get him fired, a new qb is a lifeline of sorts.
Longer leash with a rookie QB. Much shorter with the status quo.
Quote from: ozzie on February 28, 2024, 08:56:25 AMWhether they want to admit it or not, the Giants are in a rebuild. I want to see improvement, but in reality, I don't expect to see it in leaps and bounds. I think Schoen has the potential to be a good, solid GM and I imagine that if the Giants want to get serious about building a contender, they have to get off the new GM / HC carousel every few years.
Schoen must have had a plan when they hired him, so let him work it. After 5 years if this team is still a stinker, then make the change, but otherwise I think he will be safe for another 3 seasons.
As far as Daboll, I think the same, barring any more flare ups with the coaching staff.
I agree with you that they are in a rebuild. But, they probably cant call it that since they made the playoffs in their first season but, more importantly, I think the seat licenses and ticket and parking prices and others are off the charts high. Its very hard to charge what they charge and say we're rebuilding.
That said, to the question that was posed in the thread, how do you answer without knowing how they did. I will say this. Regardless of who is the QB, if the OL is as bad as it was last year, I think Schoen would more than likely lose his job.
We have little or no idea as what may happen, this year or next, except to speculate based on our bias-tainted hopes and desires. Personally, I'm not into any sort of "If not this then that" proposition. I have neither the knowledge nor the conviction for such, but I am curious as to why it would be suggested that Schoen's and Daboll's future, if we assume they are tethered together, would be determined by a decision to not draft a QB?
We do know that for quite compelling reasons, it is planned and expected that Daniel Jones will start the season as the Giants QB without need for us to speculate any further. Of course, what we certainly do not know presently is whom they may add to the position and by what means- Trade, Free Agency, and/or Draft. It is, however, embedded in the question that it must, and will be, in the Draft.
Okay! Should we assume that the GM&HC have not already decided that they must for economic exigency end DJ's tenure after this season while sharing the fear of some folks here that he might pull a repeat of 2022. But then that might not be to their disadvantage in terms of leash length.
Yes, I know this is all about entertainment and not about our needs, wants and convictions, but how often do we actually come away entertained by the myriad unknows re the when, the where, the how, and whom at the position versus the alternatives?
That's said, I looking forward to being entertained by anyone who would fill in the blanks of those unknowns without the negative thinking implicit in leash measurement.
Cheers!
Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 28, 2024, 09:22:23 AMNot sure how long of a leash I would give anyone, but I think if Daboll doesn't turn some things around this year he is gone. I don't think that means he has to win the division, but another feckless season, on offense in particular and I think he will be out.
EDIT: Just wanted to add, that even if they draft a QB, I don't think Daboll has more than this year to get things moving in the right direction. The biggest thing I don't want to happen is draft a QB this year, fire the HC at the end of the year and start over with a new offense with a QB in his 2nd year. It rarely works out well when teams do that (Goff is the only I can remember that got better in year 2 in that scenario).
We have an example right here where Shurmur was sacked after Jones' rookie year. We need to get the HC, GM, and QB on the same schedule.
The leash on Schoen and/or Daboll is NOT tied to the selection of a QB in the upcoming draft. Period. End of story. They hitched their wagon to Daniel Jones and they won't get a "free pass" if they select a new QB under the guise of "he needs time". That doesn't mean that won't draft a QB. That doesn't mean they will get fired if they eschew a QB and go again with Jones. Their future will hinge on the team showing improvement regardless of who is under center and the continued development of their picks and free agents.
Quote from: zephirus on February 29, 2024, 10:57:30 AMThe leash on Schoen and/or Daboll is NOT tied to the selection of a QB in the upcoming draft. Period. End of story. They hitched their wagon to Daniel Jones and they won't get a "free pass" if they select a new QB under the guise of "he needs time". That doesn't mean that won't draft a QB. That doesn't mean they will get fired if they eschew a QB and go again with Jones. Their future will hinge on the team showing improvement regardless of who is under center and the continued development of their picks and free agents.
Very well stated. I want to add to the text I put in boldface above that it means acknowledging the gaps they have in both individual and collective talent with their NFC East rivals and making the necessary actions to either close the gap with them, or jump ahead of them so they can finally compete in their own division. If they cannot do this, as was the case in 2022, a winning season is nice, but somewhat hollow.
It is far more than the quarterback that should have them concerned about some perceived "leash" around their necks. The focus on competitive football, and especially so with the rivals who pencil in two wins before the season even starts, should be in their craw and relentlessly doing something to change that outcome should be at or near the top of their priority list for 2024, as it should have been for 2023. Let's hope the lessons taken from the season past have been well and truly learned as they take another crack at Deming's Circle if Quality :confused:
Peace!