Not sure what to think on this one. On one hand Ranaan certainly has contacts in the organization. On the other why would this leak out?
One thing I really don't understand ( and it might be I just dont understand how the NFL works) is why the Giants would reach out to his "team". Aren't the Giants his team? I would expect a move like this to be handled with a meeting between the HC and the player.
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/03/17/new-york-giants-reached-out-evan-neal-team-about-moving-to-guard/
I don't get the "his team" stuff either. Should be between the player and his coaching staff.
I really don't have a strong view on this either way. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Since Neal is on a rookie contract, I am all for trying to figure out ways to get value out of him. And it seems clear they brought in Eluemunor to have him play RT. That's assuming they don't draft an OT in the first round, which they still could.
Might as well try Neal out at guard. If he stinks there too, then they know for sure what they're working with.
The difference in value between a starting tackle and a starting guard on a second contract is millions. In fairness to him he's only had a year and a half of playing time, all of that under an incompetent offensive line coach. It took Thomas three years to become a pro bowl caliber tackle. I suspect that he isn't going to take it well and they're trying to create a soft landing by reaching out to his team.
Quote from: madbadger on March 17, 2024, 06:05:52 PMThe difference in value between a starting tackle and a starting guard on a second contract is millions. In fairness to him he's only had a year and a half of playing time, all of that under an incompetent offensive line coach. It took Thomas three years to become a pro bowl caliber tackle. I suspect that he isn't going to take it well and they're trying to create a soft landing by reaching out to his team.
Key word there is "starting". The 2nd conttact for a starting guard is millions more than a 2nd string tackle.
Regardless of all that, the Giants are trying to win games not placate subpar performers.
Quote from: madbadger on March 17, 2024, 06:05:52 PMThe difference in value between a starting tackle and a starting guard on a second contract is millions. In fairness to him he's only had a year and a half of playing time, all of that under an incompetent offensive line coach. It took Thomas three years to become a pro bowl caliber tackle. I suspect that he isn't going to take it well and they're trying to create a soft landing by reaching out to his team.
Fair point but it's hard to compare his progression to Thomas'. Thomas was actually good in his second year. And he even showed signs of improvement down the stretch of his rookie season. Thomas' second year was nothing like Neal's. Neal was still egregious in his second year. Both have had nothing but terrible O line coaching in the NFL to this point. Both have dealt with injury issues.
Neal was improving, he's only played 20 games or 1 season and a 1/4.
Probably smoke to get other teams thinking they need to trade up to get a targeted OT
I think the Giants have thought about it, but they would never broadcast it (leak it, whatever), because that is against everything Schoen stands for. Any rumor is designed to affect the draft coming up in a few weeks
If the Giants wanted to try him at guard, they would play with it in camp to see if it is even plausible. And they certainly aren't going to leak it before it's even experimented with...unless, of course, they're throwing smoke
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 17, 2024, 06:19:50 PMNeal was improving, he's only played 20 games or 1 season and a 1/4.
I never saw Neal improve. In fact, I saw the opposite - regression. His footwork is a disaster. His awareness and ability to handle stunts couldn't have been worse. He often looked as though he was moving in slow motion. I expect more from this OL coach, but I don't think the best OL coach in history could turn Neal into a functional NFL tackle. Try him at OG and, if it doesn't work, move on entirely.
Why didnt they try him last season after it was lost for even just a game?
Quote from: madbadger on March 17, 2024, 06:05:52 PMThe difference in value between a starting tackle and a starting guard on a second contract is millions. In fairness to him he's only had a year and a half of playing time, all of that under an incompetent offensive line coach. It took Thomas three years to become a pro bowl caliber tackle. I suspect that he isn't going to take it well and they're trying to create a soft landing by reaching out to his team.
Not defending him but he's had even less playing time than that. 20 games
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 17, 2024, 06:19:50 PMNeal was improving, he's only played 20 games or 1 season and a 1/4.
Exactly. Let's see what his new O-line coach thinks. I don't know if people realize how little playing time Neal really had. Add to the fact he went from Left tackle to the right side.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on March 17, 2024, 08:02:05 PMExactly. Let's see what his new O-line coach thinks. I don't know if people realize how little playing time Neal really had. Add to the fact he went from Left tackle to the right side.
I really don't get the easy to change from left to right and vice versa. How many boxers can box regular and south paw or surfers can surf regular vs goofy foot? Answer few.
We have a dominant eye and a dominant hand. They dont work equally on both sides. WRs say they are more comfortable catching a ball to one sode than the other.
I'm not sure he could guard the end of the bench.
After the first two seasons this kid has had they shouldn't need to ask his permission to do anything. If he can beat out the new guy for RT then that's terrific. I'm not holding my breath. And if he can't they should absolutely see if he can be remotely useful as a guard. It'd be tough for him to be worse there than he was at RT or worse than the recent guard play of the Giants in general.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 17, 2024, 06:03:13 PMI don't get the "his team" stuff either. Should be between the player and his coaching staff.
I really don't have a strong view on this either way. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. Since Neal is on a rookie contract, I am all for trying to figure out ways to get value out of him. And it seems clear they brought in Eluemunor to have him play RT. That's assuming they don't draft an OT in the first round, which they still could.
Might as well try Neal out at guard. If he stinks there too, then they know for sure what they're working with.
I think the whole team thing is the result of the 2011 CBA
QuoteThe new collective bargaining agreement agreed to in 2011 dictates that until the offseason program begins, players and coaches are not allowed to talk football, hold meetings, look at a playbook, watch film or do any other football-related activity. Players can't work out with the team strength coach even if he's standing at the bench press next to him.
So if the Giants decided after the season was over and Neal had left that they would make the move, they could only communicate that to Neal indirectly
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2014/04/26/coaches-players-talk-shop-nfl-agreement/8227871/
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 18, 2024, 09:13:59 AMI think the whole team thing is the result of the 2011 CBA
So if the Giants decided after the season was over and Neal had left that they would make the move, they could only communicate that to Neal indirectly
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2014/04/26/coaches-players-talk-shop-nfl-agreement/8227871/
Rich,
That makes more sense now and is understandable as to why they would go that route.
I think you have to give him a shot with the new O-line coach to see if he can work as a RT. There's too much pedigree and potential upside not to take that shot. If he still looks the same through a quarter of the season, I think you pull the plug then.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on March 18, 2024, 12:40:59 PMI think you have to give him a shot with the new O-line coach to see if he can work as a RT. There's too much pedigree and potential upside not to take that shot. If he still looks the same through a quarter of the season, I think you pull the plug then.
I listened to the podcast yesterday (In my opinion, it's not one of Jordan's better works). Even Jordan suggested that Neal would start camp at RT and be moved later (if Neal fails to handle the RT position)
Quote from: uconnjack8 on March 18, 2024, 10:12:31 AMRich,
That makes more sense now and is understandable as to why they would go that route.
If this is the case it might be their way of telling him it might be wise for him to start working with one of those independent OL coaches to start learning the position.
I see Neal taking 50% snaps at starting RT with the new guy we signed from Raiders the other 50%. Neal will get plenty of snaps at guard too. If the competition at RT is close, I could see Neals youth and draft slot giving him an edge. But if he is clearly outplayed, he gets to compete to compete for a starting guard spot. I'd love to see him earn a starting spot purely on merit
Quote from: gregf on March 18, 2024, 01:04:54 PMI see Neal taking 50% snaps at starting RT with the new guy we signed from Raiders the other 50%. Neal will get plenty of snaps at guard too. If the competition at RT is close, I could see Neals youth and draft slot giving him an edge. But if he is clearly outplayed, he gets to compete to compete for a starting guard spot. I'd love to see him earn a starting spot purely on merit
If the competition is close at RT than the front office didn't address the Oline adequately and the season is done anyway.
Neal needs to move to guard because it's his last hope and there is no way Schoen can enter into the 2024-25 season with Neal penciled in anywhere on the line yet alone Tackle.
Quote from: gregf on March 18, 2024, 01:04:54 PMI see Neal taking 50% snaps at starting RT with the new guy we signed from Raiders the other 50%. Neal will get plenty of snaps at guard too. If the competition at RT is close, I could see Neals youth and draft slot giving him an edge. But if he is clearly outplayed, he gets to compete to compete for a starting guard spot. I'd love to see him earn a starting spot purely on merit
greg: Of the many possibilities suggested here and elsewhere, I like yours the best. The only downside is that either guy with a chance at playing tackle instead of guard could (intentionally or not) try harder at tackle (or not try as hard at guard) with knowledge that the tackle job pays more. The counter to this is that (this year) both men get paid same amount no matter which job they win. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 18, 2024, 03:40:30 PMgreg: Of the many possibilities suggested here and elsewhere, I like yours the best. The only downside is that either guy with a chance at playing tackle instead of guard could (intentionally or not) try harder at tackle (or not try as hard at guard) with knowledge that the tackle job pays more. The counter to this is that (this year) both men get paid same amount no matter which job they win. Bob
Bob - I think they realize that getting to a 2nd contract at Guard by your team is better than not getting a 2nd contract at tackle by your team likely due to sub performance and getting a backup's contract from another team.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on March 18, 2024, 12:40:59 PMI think you have to give him a shot with the new O-line coach to see if he can work as a RT. There's too much pedigree and potential upside not to take that shot. If he still looks the same through a quarter of the season, I think you pull the plug then.
This makes sense in theory, but it might be tricky in practice.
Personally, if I were Daboll, I would lean heavily on Bricillo's input on this subject. If Bricillo told me at the end of August that, based on what he has seen in camp and the preseason, he thinks Eleumenor is the better RT right now and gives us the best chance to win, I would not usurp him and force him to go with Neal because my boss and I had an agenda of trying to make a failed draft pick work. I would definitely go with whoever I thought helped give the team the best chance to win, including in week one.
If Neal wants to keep starting at RT for this team, I don't think expecting him to beat out a FA OT we brought in for $7mm a year (low for that position) is asking a lot of a third year player.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 18, 2024, 06:30:15 PMThis makes sense in theory, but it might be tricky in practice.
Personally, if I were Daboll, I would lean heavily on Bricillo's input on this subject. If Bricillo told me at the end of August that, based on what he has seen in camp and the preseason, he thinks Eleumenor is the better RT right now and gives us the best chance to win, I would not usurp him and force him to go with Neal because my boss and I had an agenda of trying to make a failed draft pick work. I would definitely go with whoever I thought helped give the team the best chance to win, including in week one.
If Neal wants to keep starting at RT for this team, I don't think expecting him to beat out a FA OT we brought in for $7mm a year (low for that position) is asking a lot of a third year player.
I would love to see the Giants decode by July 1 and get everyone into their actual positions for the entire camp. No "let's experiment til Sept 1 then decide."
Quote from: Philosophers on March 18, 2024, 10:14:20 PMI would love to see the Giants decode by July 1 and get everyone into their actual positions for the entire camp. No "let's experiment til Sept 1 then decide."
I think they can go with a working assumption of their starting team and hope to stick to it, but I don't like the idea of making firm commitments on July 1st to the point where it doesn't matter how guys look in camp and the preseason. I could see doing that on an established, strong line, but not one that has been in flux. Performance in camp and preseason has to matter, and it has to justify any working assumption they have on July 1st.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 18, 2024, 06:30:15 PMThis makes sense in theory, but it might be tricky in practice.
Personally, if I were Daboll, I would lean heavily on Bricillo's input on this subject. If Bricillo told me at the end of August that, based on what he has seen in camp and the preseason, he thinks Eleumenor is the better RT right now and gives us the best chance to win, I would not usurp him and force him to go with Neal because my boss and I had an agenda of trying to make a failed draft pick work. I would definitely go with whoever I thought helped give the team the best chance to win, including in week one.
If Neal wants to keep starting at RT for this team, I don't think expecting him to beat out a FA OT we brought in for $7mm a year (low for that position) is asking a lot of a third year player.
Obviously if he continues to look terrible in camp, I'd just go with Eleumanor at RT. My main question is at what point do you make the shift to guard? I can't imagine you can have him working on both positions at once so if you don't make the shift in camp, is it the kind of thing where he just becomes a healthy scratch for a few weeks while he works on playing guard?
Evan Neal reminds me a lot of Ereck Flowers...
Give Eleumenor the starting caliber reps at Rt, it is his job to lose. That will either trigger something within Neal and hopefully get him working toward the right road under the guidance of Bricillo and if that is not an option that it sets the stage for the move to guard.
Neal has not earned the right to anything other than the opportunity to compete for a job.
It would be a mistake to give Neal any kind of edge on any depth chart associated with the Oline.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 18, 2024, 10:58:26 PMI think they can go with a working assumption of their starting team and hope to stick to it, but I don't like the idea of making firm commitments on July 1st to the point where it doesn't matter how guys look in camp and the preseason. I could see doing that on an established, strong line, but not one that has been in flux. Performance in camp and preseason has to matter, and it has to justify any working assumption they have on July 1st.
The only reason I am saying it is to have olenty if time to build cohesion and continuity among the starting five so they really know how the guy left and right moves.
It's not to reward a bad player by anointing him July 1.
Last year I felt the Giants experimented all through preseason camp up to the first regular season game and had not built any continuity.
Quote from: babywhales on March 19, 2024, 08:42:21 AMGive Eleumenor the starting caliber reps at Rt, it is his job to lose. That will either trigger something within Neal and hopefully get him working toward the right road under the guidance of Bricillo and if that is not an option that it sets the stage for the move to guard.
Neal has not earned the right to anything other than the opportunity to compete for a job.
It would be a mistake to give Neal any kind of edge on any depth chart associated with the Oline.
I agree. We gave this guy a big contract to come in and be a starter. He knows Bricillo's system and he's going to be key to getting the rest of the line up to speed.
Neal can fight for a job at RT or at G. Either way, he needs to earn a spot.
I don't get Neal at all. He was considered as close to a sure thing as there was. Not necessarily to be a superstar, but to at least be a very good tackle. And he came from a top school. Something is amiss here.
Quote from: ViewFromSection129 on March 19, 2024, 10:20:18 AMI don't get Neal at all. He was considered as close to a sure thing as there was. Not necessarily to be a superstar, but to at least be a very good tackle. And he came from a top school. Something is amiss here.
Could be as simple as lacking the mental discipline for the NFL, he abandons his technique when under duress.
Or it could be poor coaching, Bobby Johnson was horrible and has been horrible for the majority of his career.
Or it could be the scheme, I have read Daboll asks Olineman to use a mix of zone and man:man blocking that can be very hard for certain players to implement.
Either way the guy is a mess on the field more than not
Quote from: babywhales on March 19, 2024, 10:27:45 AMCould be as simple as lacking the mental discipline for the NFL, he abandons his technique when under duress.
Or it could be poor coaching, Bobby Johnson was horrible and has been horrible for the majority of his career.
Or it could be the scheme, I have read Daboll asks Olineman to use a mix of zone and man:man blocking that can be very hard for certain players to implement.
Either way the guy is a mess on the field more than not
I'm hoping it is scheme or coaching. Which is what I have questioned about the Giants for awhile. We blame the draft for a lot, and rightly so, but I feel like we are not getting the most out of our players. But I have not done an analysis on this, it is just more of an opinion than based on hard facts.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 19, 2024, 09:01:05 AMThe only reason I am saying it is to have olenty if time to build cohesion and continuity among the starting five so they really know how the guy left and right moves.
It's not to reward a bad player by anointing him July 1.
Last year I felt the Giants experimented all through preseason camp up to the first regular season game and had not built any continuity.
I totally agree that it would be great to have that cohesion. I just don't think it can be guaranteed ahead of camp/preseason with a line that is this embattled.
They could say something like "men, this is our starting five as of right now. If your name is on this list, we expect you to live up to our current assessment of you by performing up to scratch in camp and the preseason. If you're not on it, we want to see you give everything you have to try to earn you way onto it."
I don't see why that's not a decent compromise that gives you the hope of cohesion but leaves the door open to a different player working his way on by clearly outplaying and outpracticing the guy who is on.