Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:26:35 PMHe does sit in the pocket surveying the field but he's so indecisive and can't see things he ends up taking sacks.

See, that's not a fact, it is an opinion, unless you have some way of quantifying that.  But here's another fact.  In addition to there being only 2 QBs who were sacked more, and only 1 QB who was hurried more, there are only 4 QBS who have been knocked down more.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 05:10:24 PMThe time to throw fact.

Sorry, been debunked.  Time to throw includes the time he spends running for his life.  It's not like that's the time he gets to sit in the pocket surveying the field.

I'm responding in this thread because this is about DJ, not Hodgins:

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 04:44:04 PMThe offensive line was always going to be a work in progress this season.  It has improved but there is more work to be done.

Your claim about pass protection being bad is based on the facts that you choose to acknowledge ignoring the facts that don't support your claim.

Which facts would that be?

Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:40:31 PMAnd you want consistency? What you expect him to do that every game and run for 160 yards every game? That is a tall order in the NFL . This isn't high school football were talking about here.

If you have to argue it would be great if you would argue against what I actually say rather than just making up straw men.  There's a vast gulf between saying I want 160 yards per game every game, which I never said, and pointing out that in half the games he averaged less than 4 ypc in half the games, which is what I actually said.  Just like I never said Jones needs everything perfect, or an elite player at every position on the offense like some have claimed I said.

Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 01:08:55 PMI can never make and sense of the letting Barkley go arguments. How is this team going to score any points?

And why is it some package deal? Barkley stays since he clearly the best player on this team/ the focal point of the offense/ the only player who who has any kind of breakout plays and you can tag him for relatively little cap space.

All this talk about Sexy dex and linebackers is trying to get too cute. This defense is not a problem. And dexter is a good to have 2 down player; nothing near as important as barkley.

Because filling in the holes in the roster is of more value than the marginal advantage an aging, inconsistent, and injury prone Barkley provides over the kinds of RBs you can get for modest FA money or middle round draftees. 

As for the defense, they are 27th in giving up yards and 20th in points allowed.  Long term, that's a problem.  And while I'm not the biggest PFF fan, Dexter is putting up elite grades almost every game, while Barkley has put up some stinkers, including 7 games where he averaged under 4 ypc, two of which were under 3 yards per carry.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 01:07:41 PMIn my opinion and from what I've read from professionals that use next Gen stats for clearer picture of what's going on with an offense "Time to Throw" doesn't give a ton of information on its own. Only when it's coupled with other next Gen stats like actual Air Yards, and intended air yards can you get a better picture.

For example:

Patrick mahomes has a bad time to throw stat but his air yards and intended air yards are way above average borderline really long, and his 20+ and 40+ plays are tops in the league then we can assume from the data that his time to throw is bad not because of the offensive line or anything he's doing but because he is holding the ball longer to allow for routes/plays to develop.

Daniel Jones Bad time to throw stat and his Inteded air yards, and actual air yards are extremely short, that he's holding the ball and not throwing it far when he does release suggests a disconnect in the offense. 

If that helps, but yeah time to throw doesn't offer much without context of other stats involved.

Maybe that's because Mahomes' receivers get open?  They lost one of the top 3 receivers in the league and still have a receiving corps that is light-years better than the Giants'.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 01:08:38 PMDifference is I am not trying to argue this offensive line will be elite with the addition of one elite level player.  IMO they've been sufficient with room for improvement.

Neither am I so this is a straw man argument.  They are not sufficient at pass pro, they stink.  They have one excellent player and a bunch of guys who would be back-ups on most teams.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 12:58:31 PMWhen you have an indecisive QB that holds onto the ball as long as Jones does he's going to get sacked a lot.  I don't put that all on the offensive line. 

And they say no one is making excuses for the OL.

Quote from: Fletch on December 27, 2022, 12:53:29 PMYou want to know the really interesting thing about Jones fans. They were already emotionally invested in this guy, and are hardly sincere in caims like...

"Shoen will use the final X games as an evaluation period" or "let's see how the season plays out"

They already are and were convinced Jones should be the QB here and then they go looking for reasons why. And it goes without saying that they have excuses at the ready.

You can't argue with them about things like Baker looking great the other day and he is a free agent or that Daniel Jones according to his numbers is really like a bottom tier QB.

You will never convince them because Jones to them is what a QB is supposed to be and look like and act like. The fact that he really isn't a very good QB is secondary.

It's too bad I was not around here for Eli ....Anti - Eliers I have seen --who didn't like him --didn't really like his mannerisms and because he would always blame his receivers when there was a communication problem, and they thought he whined too much. So that is why to them Jones is a better QB than Eli.

Funny thing, I feel like I am one of the defenders of DJ, and I've probably made the strongest case for letting him (and Barkley) move on while they focus their CAP space on extending their stars like Dexter and Thomas, and picking up mid-pay-range FAs at lower value position like ILB and IOL, and maybe one big FA signing if there's someone they really like at one of our myriad positions of need.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 27, 2022, 12:30:06 PMOffensive line has been good enough for this team to have a good passing offense.  No excuses needed.  It's a reasonably competent NFL offensive line.

Only 2 QBs have been sacked more and only one QB has been hurried more, so I can't possibly agree with your contention.  The Giants O-line stinks at pass pro, no matter what kind of hand-waving is done.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 27, 2022, 12:46:19 PMTime to throw is the time from the snap until the ball leaves the Qbs hands.

So it's not particularly relevant, since it includes the time he's running for his life.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 27, 2022, 10:34:54 AMI think it's worth noting which QBs enjoyed superior receivers.   QBs can usually get by with either good receivers or good protection, but it's extremely rare to get by without both.

No matter how many times that point is made it gets steadfastly ignored in some quarters.  Just like the 'time to throw' and 'time in pocket' dichotomy.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 27, 2022, 09:31:57 AMNo one is making excuses for the OL, I don't think anyone has claimed it is anything above average besides Thomas.

It is his best overall OL, but that also is not saying much of anything. But plenty of QBs have played well with equal or worse.

Sure excuses are being made for the OL.  I talk about the forty percent increase in sacks and out come the hand-waving excuses that the pass pro has actually improved.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 08:34:26 PMThere's always excuses for Jones.  At what point do they go away?  When things are perfect around him?

There are always excuses for the OL.  At what point do they go away?

And there, yet again is the hyperbolic 'when things are perfect' canard.  No one has said things have to be perfect for him to produce better numbers, we'd just like to see a reasonably competent NFL quality OL and WR corps.  No one has said he needs the Eagles OL and the Bengals receiver group.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 26, 2022, 12:16:44 PMIt's year 4.  He's had multiple Head Coaches, Coordinators and players around him.  At some point it needs to be about him.

You say that like it is a positive, whereas this kind or organizational instability is what can stunt a QBs development.