Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on December 22, 2022, 08:32:26 PMBy what standard?   The metrics says it's better than last year.  Did you see the post from Ed a few weeks ago? 

Last year they averaged giving up 2.2 sacks per game.  This year they have been averaging 3.1 sacks per game, more than a 40% increase.  In the face of these facts I would not give credence to any metric that says their pass pro has even stayed the same, let anyone improved.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/qb-sacked-per-game

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:19:27 PMPersonnel has changed on both the WR and O-Line units.  Play caller has also changed.......

I wonder what hasn't changed? 

The lack of quality of both groups.  Although they did really change, the O-line clearly got worse in pass pro, and the WRs declined largely due to injury.

I know where you want to take this, but you have to deal with these facts. The personnel may have changed in these units, but is a very hard case to make that change meant improvement.  Impossible, in the case of the pass pro.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 05:21:54 PMLast year there was also a lot of talk about how Jones didn't have a running game to lean on (as Barkley was bad last year). This year not only did we get rid of Jason Garrett and replace him with Daboll/Kafka, but Barkley is the Pro Bowl starter now. And yet the passing numbers still are not materially different from past years.

Well, the pass pro DID get a lot worse, so there's that.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 05:11:23 PMOk, so again middle of the road QB.  Which is fine.  It's not a $25-$30+ AAV QB.

What we do know that with this QB, OL and WR's the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football.  I don't think adding a #1 Playmaking WR will make as big of a difference as others do.  For me the screaming about the WR's is what the fire Jason Garrett upgrade the offensive line was a year ago.  Yet here we are having a similar discussion.

We are having the same discussion because the Oline pass blocking has seriously declined since last year and the WRs have gone backwards since last year.  There is a limit to how much coaching can affect units that have a serious lack of quality.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs.  I could be wrong but don't think it does.

He's 16th in passing yards and 13th in passing and rushing yards combined.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 03:17:02 PMI thought of those stats when I saw this Tweet

https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1606010013310394368

Here's a crazy stat.  Fields has had 15 fumbles, most in the league.  But he has only lost 1.

Quote from: Slugsy-Narrows on December 22, 2022, 09:41:50 AMMurray has had better skill players to throw to I believe!

OLINE probably equal to ours maybe slightly better but not by much.

Not that is the be-all and end-all of pass pro evaluation, but AZ is just above the Giants, giving up 2.9 sacks per game compared to 3.1 for the Giants.  And our guys have done a better job in run blocking at 4.6 YPC compared to AZ's 4.3.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 21, 2022, 10:55:12 PMWhy is that the implication, precisely? Because it fits your supposition? Sorry, but QBs with better yards-per-attempt and less overall yardage have been benched for production reasons (Zach Wilson, Marcus Mariota). Its incumbent upon you to support your position with evidence and not self-serving assumptions.

And moreover, how does this support the idea that Jones is an above-average passer in any way? If these "better" QBs are getting injured and replaced by backups... well the teams overall are still performing far better on average than the Jones-led Giants! The teams idea really neutralizes your argument from the beginning. At best, your argument supports the idea that Jones is healthier than average (a proposition that for this season at least I can agree with), but not an average passer.

I chose not to address your other points because I wasn't involved in your conversation, but felt the need to correct a patently false idea that the Giants or Daniel Jones are middle-of-the-pack in passing. And as I said before, there are certainly valid criticisms about the quality of the Giants receiving corps, so why would I address mitigating factors that I already agreed with? I also don't feel the need to debate with you every point you (or anyone else) has. If you want me to, I can surely try.

The ad hominem attacks about people being happy about Jones departing are unnecessary and truly a refuge for a weak argument.

This might all be the case if this were a debating board and not a discussion board.  As it is I have my opinion and I'm not trying to change your mind, nor am I going to be drawn into a debate when soon enough we will see what happens.  I'll just add that acknowledging the fact that the are people here who want to see DJ's back is not an ad hominem, it is a recognition of reality.  And if you read my post on what I think will happen you'd be hard-pressed to discover a narrative.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on December 21, 2022, 05:02:41 PMWhen you use Jones's individual ranking in total yards then imply its out of 32, you're not making an apples-to-apples comparison. In a 32-team league, the Giants passing offense ranks 28th in yards-per-game and 27th in yards-per-attempt. If you look at Jones's yards-per-attempt for qualified passers this season, he's 27th as well (so right in line with the team rankings). Jones is decidedly not middle-of-the-pack in this regard. Doesn't change your arguments about the quality of the offense, but it's categorically incorrect to imply that the passing production of Jones has been anything but well below-average this season.

You have inadvertantly made a point about his durability.  With the stat you cite coupled with the fact that the he is 16 in yards passing the implication is that QBs who are "better" than him have lost time to injury.

IAC, we'll see what happens.  I think there will be teams that will look at him differently, that see that the Giants are near the bottom of the league in pass attempts and some of the other points I made that you chose not to address and offer him better coin than some folks think.  They'll say, look what he's accomplished with a lousy OL and lousy receivers - our OL and receivers are way better, so imagine how he would do with them - and outbid the Giants.  Which will make a bunch of you guys happy.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 21, 2022, 02:01:36 PMThere is no doubt that Jones is one of the best rushing QB's in the league.  And even factoring in his supporting cast I still don't believe he'll ever be an elite QB.  If he was putting up average middle of the road passing numbers with this then I'd agree about that elite potential.

Agree to disagree on this.

He's 16th in total passing yards.  In a 32 team league that is the very definition of "average middle of the road passing numbers".  And he has made himself top-notch in ball security despite being sacked the third-most times in the league, behind our supposedly improved OL (although going from 2.2 sacks per game last year up to 3.1 sacks per game this year doesn't seem improved to me).  And he's about 4th in rushing yards.

These are the things that will make a team look at him and the lack of quality in the offense he's playing in and think about what he might do in their offense that is higher quality.  And offer him more than the Giants are willing to pay him.

Quote from: TrueBlueFan on December 20, 2022, 05:19:14 PMIt was a decent drive, perhaps he deserves some credit not for that drive but maybe a few throws. But how did that drive end? Did he throw a TD or punch it in with his legs? I can't credit him an entire drive if he was not the one that sealed the deal at the end of it.

That drive was roughly half of his production the whole game. Coupled with 13 total points on offense, and none of those scoring plays involving him, what does that say about his performance every other drive and the game as a whole? Does he really deserve as much credit as you think he does?

If a 97 yard drive is just a decent drive I'd love to know what it takes for you to call a drive good.

And saying that the drive had something to do with the win is giving him too much credit?

I have to say that the notion that the only things a QB really deserves credit for is being part of the scoring play is unusual.  So since he covered the last 3 yards on a TD run, does Barkley get the credit for the drive?

I'm leaning towards the position that they have too many holes, starting and depth, to afford the luxury of a relatively high paid QB and RB.  I won't be upset if they let then both go and use the CAP space to sign some good players in the lower value positions, maybe 2 FA ILBs, of which there will be a number to choose from.  Maybe a couple of IOLs.  A safety.  An RB.  Maybe a rotational pass rusher.  Maybe a mid-price WR.  Then use the draft to go after higher value positions like WR and CB.  And fill out the draft with guys who provide depth who might develop into starters.

Then play Tyrod for 2023 and, with a more solid roster, go all-in for the QB in the 2024 draft that they like.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 20, 2022, 04:54:21 PMAgain I'm just not sure what exactly you're asking me to give him credit for. A couple of our receivers (James is the subject of this thread so I'll key on him in this post) had a couple of plays that they looked decent on. No Giant receiver even had 50 yards in this game, and overall our passing offense put up 160 yards on 32 attempts (5.0 YPA) and no touchdowns. It is unclear to me why you're put off by the fact that I'm not rushing to give Jones credit for either his or the receivers' performance in this game. By any rational measure our passing offense was poor, and we won this game for other reasons.

I have never bought into the narrative that our receivers are horrible. I certainly don't think they are good either. I think they're below average and we clearly lack a number one receiver, but we have NFL caliber players in this receiver room who are capable of making plays. So when a Richie James has a scrappy 42 yards and perhaps a nice play or two on specials, that's decent for him, but I'm not sure why I am expected to jump to heap credit on Jones for that.

I think the 97 yard drive which was almost all passing had a little something to do with the win.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 19, 2022, 01:56:03 PM1-10 in primetime games now, least he got that off his back with the win.

This is what drives me crazy.  Even a great win becomes an occasion to throw shade at DJ.

Quote from: Fletch on December 19, 2022, 12:22:22 PMSo it looks like NFL.com is using either QBR to be Rating and not actual QBR or just a mistake in general. But whatever ... that just goes to show that no one really cares
Here is an example from the Texans game:
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Kansas+City+Chiefs+vs+Houston+Texans+Sunday%2c+December+18%2c+2022&FORM=S00035

It was a lot more fun around here without some xxxx who is trying to prove he's right all the time

Totally out of line, IMO.