An excellent article on the Giants and the trade deadline

[T200]

I have a slightly different take on trading for a WR this year.

First, at 6-2 in the rookie year of the Schoen/Daboll tenure, this team is playing with house money. They came in with a plan and the results are better than they probably expected, as well as the fan base. To me, it's like buying a stock with great future potential but no real hopes of it skyrocketing in the first few weeks. But it does! So do you alter your long-term plan because of the short-term success? Personally, I wouldn't.

Second, and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, I'm a fan of Jones but I still have a problem with his lack of vision and seeing the entire field. Yes, I understand the concept of primary receivers and progressions. But if you have two receivers open on the same side of the field, why throw to the short guy? I've heard the many reasons about the short option being the primary but I just can't fathom Kafka or Daboll criticizing Jones for skipping the primary short target and throwing to an open guy 10 yards down the field.

Bringing in a guy who CAN get open and get separation, in MY view, is NOT going to help Jones see him. That part of his game is lacking and he needs to work on that.

[MightyGiants]

I have a slightly different take on trading for a WR this year.

First, at 6-2 in the rookie year of the Schoen/Daboll tenure, this team is playing with house money. They came in with a plan and the results are better than they probably expected, as well as the fan base. To me, it's like buying a stock with great future potential but no real hopes of it skyrocketing in the first few weeks. But it does! So do you alter your long-term plan because of the short-term success? Personally, I wouldn't.

Second, and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, I'm a fan of Jones but I still have a problem with his lack of vision and seeing the entire field. Yes, I understand the concept of primary receivers and progressions. But if you have two receivers open on the same side of the field, why throw to the short guy? I've heard the many reasons about the short option being the primary but I just can't fathom Kafka or Daboll criticizing Jones for skipping the primary short target and throwing to an open guy 10 yards down the field.

Bringing in a guy who CAN get open and get separation, in MY view, is NOT going to help Jones see him. That part of his game is lacking and he needs to work on that.

Tim,

I sometimes wonder if we fully appreciate just how quickly QBs run through their progressions.  I mean QB's frequently get the ball out in 2.5 seconds.   Consider the first part is the play unfolding and then the reads, which potentially gives a QB less than a second to evaluate each of the WRs in their progression (I think it's fair to say most progressions are three receivers and sometimes a check down).  Also, remember that the good QBs are also reading what the defense is doing and trying to prevent his eyes from giving away his intention or using them to manipulate the defense.

Now to circle back to your point of suggesting Jones skip ahead in his progression.  Now I was listening to Nick and Dan's podcast this morning, and they just talked about how frequently a window for a receiver being open is a small one (as in they are open for a brief period of time and then they are covered again either by another defender or the coverage defender catching up).  So say that Jones did as you suggest (skip the first read and go to the second read because it was deeper, and he might be open).  What happens if the 2nd read turns out to be covered?   Do you jump back to the first read?  Do you go to read number 3 and reduce your option?   I think it's worth remembering that reads are often designed to speed things up by reading left to right or deep to shallow rather than just looking randomly all over the field.   So if you read your receivers out of order the QB will end up looking all over the field in a herky-jerky manner

[T200]

Tim,

I sometimes wonder if we fully appreciate just how quickly QBs run through their progressions.  I mean QB's frequently get the ball out in 2.5 seconds.   Consider the first part is the play unfolding and then the reads, which potentially gives a QB less than a second to evaluate each of the WRs in their progression (I think it's fair to say most progressions are three receivers and sometimes a check down).  Also, remember that the good QBs are also reading what the defense is doing and trying to prevent his eyes from giving away his intention or using them to manipulate the defense.

Now to circle back to your point of suggesting Jones skip ahead in his progression.  Now I was listening to Nick and Dan's podcast this morning, and they just talked about how frequently a window for a receiver being open is a small one (as in they are open for a brief period of time and then they are covered again either by another defender or the coverage defender catching up).  So say that Jones did as you suggest (skip the first read and go to the second read because it was deeper, and he might be open).  What happens if the 2nd read turns out to be covered?   Do you jump back to the first read?  Do you go to read number 3 and reduce your option?   I think it's worth remembering that reads are often designed to speed things up by reading left to right or deep to shallow rather than just looking randomly all over the field.   So if you read your receivers out of order the QB will end up looking all over the field in a herky-jerky manner

Rich,

I guess my issue with Jones is probably more about natural instincts and the ability to adjust.

I understand and appreciate that some people have a much narrower field of vision than others. My scenario of two receivers being open on the same side of the field was purposeful. One, it has happened during several games. Two, it eliminates the issue of scanning the field from left to right or right to left. Kafka has dialed up pass plays with short and intermediate routes on the same side of the field. In some of those cases, I have seen Jones go for the short route and on a few occasions, missed open receivers in the end zone.

It obviously didn't hurt them in the wins but those misses on third down versus Seattle were killer.

[Blue Fire]

Tim,

I sometimes wonder if we fully appreciate just how quickly QBs run through their progressions.  I mean QB's frequently get the ball out in 2.5 seconds.   Consider the first part is the play unfolding and then the reads, which potentially gives a QB less than a second to evaluate each of the WRs in their progression (I think it's fair to say most progressions are three receivers and sometimes a check down).  Also, remember that the good QBs are also reading what the defense is doing and trying to prevent his eyes from giving away his intention or using them to manipulate the defense.

Now to circle back to your point of suggesting Jones skip ahead in his progression.  Now I was listening to Nick and Dan's podcast this morning, and they just talked about how frequently a window for a receiver being open is a small one (as in they are open for a brief period of time and then they are covered again either by another defender or the coverage defender catching up).  So say that Jones did as you suggest (skip the first read and go to the second read because it was deeper, and he might be open).  What happens if the 2nd read turns out to be covered?   Do you jump back to the first read?  Do you go to read number 3 and reduce your option?   I think it's worth remembering that reads are often designed to speed things up by reading left to right or deep to shallow rather than just looking randomly all over the field.   So if you read your receivers out of order the QB will end up looking all over the field in a herky-jerky manner

You touched on so many key points here in the equation.

There is so much nuance to this (and more) on just about every single pass play. It is not nearly as black and white as the average fan watching at home makes it to be. A QB is often told on certain plays what the read order should be too. What if read 4 uncovers early and is an other side of the field read? An average fan sees this and arbitrarily blames the QB for having poor vision or decision making. This is just one small example of many.

[T200]

I will also add that it's not so much skipping ahead in his progression. The whole point of a progression is to find the open man. If there are two open receivers, go to the one with better advantage, be it separation or gain. That's on the QB to decide. Sticking hard and fast to the progression is not a recipe for success, if you ask me. I'd rather look at it as a guide.

[T200]

You touched on so many key points here in the equation.

There is so much nuance to this (and more) on just about every single pass play. It is not nearly as black and white as the average fan watching at home makes it to be. A QB is often told on certain plays what the read order should be too. What if read 4 uncovers early and is an other side of the field read? An average fan sees this and arbitrarily blames the QB for having poor vision or decision making. This is just one small example of many.

So if Read 4 uncovers early because a defender fell down, you mean to tell me that the QB shouldn't throw it to the open guy until AFTER he's gone through his first three options???   

It's not arbitrary for anyone watching a game and sees a a receiver wide open and the QB doesn't get him the ball. It's deliberately blaming the QB.

I guess a below-average fan would be OK with sticking with the progressions no matter what.

[Rambo89]

I have a slightly different take on trading for a WR this year.

First, at 6-2 in the rookie year of the Schoen/Daboll tenure, this team is playing with house money. They came in with a plan and the results are better than they probably expected, as well as the fan base. To me, it's like buying a stock with great future potential but no real hopes of it skyrocketing in the first few weeks. But it does! So do you alter your long-term plan because of the short-term success? Personally, I wouldn't.

Second, and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, I'm a fan of Jones but I still have a problem with his lack of vision and seeing the entire field. Yes, I understand the concept of primary receivers and progressions. But if you have two receivers open on the same side of the field, why throw to the short guy? I've heard the many reasons about the short option being the primary but I just can't fathom Kafka or Daboll criticizing Jones for skipping the primary short target and throwing to an open guy 10 yards down the field.

Bringing in a guy who CAN get open and get separation, in MY view, is NOT going to help Jones see him. That part of his game is lacking and he needs to work on that.

I don't think anyone can deny that the Giants do need to improve the talent level among their WR's.  But to your point I am not sure adding an elite #1 will help Daniel Jones with the weakness in his game specifically going through his progressions and anticipating plays.  If anything it might reinforce his bad habits of locking onto one receiver.

[T200]

I don't think anyone can deny that the Giants do need to improve the talent level among their WR's.  But to your point I am not sure adding an elite #1 will help Daniel Jones with the weakness in his game specifically going through his progressions and anticipating plays.  If anything it might reinforce his bad habits of locking onto one receiver.

And he's certainly not cured of the bird dogging either. He did it a few times against Dallas and I believe Jax... or whichever game he threw the INT but it was negated by a defensive penalty. At any rate, he's got to develop better field vision, IMHO.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

I guess my issue with Jones is probably more about natural instincts and the ability to adjust.

I understand and appreciate that some people have a much narrower field of vision than others. My scenario of two receivers being open on the same side of the field was purposeful. One, it has happened during several games. Two, it eliminates the issue of scanning the field from left to right or right to left. Kafka has dialed up pass plays with short and intermediate routes on the same side of the field. In some of those cases, I have seen Jones go for the short route and on a few occasions, missed open receivers in the end zone.

It obviously didn't hurt them in the wins but those misses on third down versus Seattle were killer.

Tim,

There is another aspect of this issue to consider.  I remember reading Phil Simm's book "Sunday Morning QB."  One of the points he made in the book is that what you see on TV is much different than what a QB sees on the field.   Beyond not having the advantage of the bird's eye view we enjoy, the QB is reading his receivers and the defense with guys who are 6'3" to 6' 6" tall doing battle in front of him.   

Another thing to consider is the point that Dan and Nick make on the podcast that all QBs leave plays on the field or appear to leave plays on the field.   To some degree, the issue is amplified with Jones because the games have such narrow margins, and our subpar receiving group doesn't give many open looks to exploit.

It's not that I completely disagree with you.  There are times (like the one video that was posted multiple times on the Nick Falato thread) when Jones could do a better job anticipating a receiver coming open (that is part of the challenge. It does not just look at a receiver and see if he is open, you have to anticipate if that will quickly change). 

I guess where I differ is that I see Jones improving in his vision, processing, and anticipation to the point where he could take full advantage of a proper WR.  I mean, it may not happen right out of the box, but I see it as a situation that would improve as the weeks rolled on.

[Blue Fire]

Tim,

There is another aspect of this issue to consider.  I remember reading Phil Simm's book "Sunday Morning QB."  One of the points he made in the book is that what you see on TV is much different than what a QB sees on the field.   Beyond not having the advantage of the bird's eye view we enjoy, the QB is reading his receivers and the defense with guys who are 6'3" to 6' 6" tall doing battle in front of him.   

Another thing to consider is the point that Dan and Nick make on the podcast that all QBs leave plays on the field or appear to leave plays on the field.   To some degree, the issue is amplified with Jones because the games have such narrow margins, and our subpar receiving group doesn't give many open looks to exploit.

It's not that I completely disagree with you.  There are times (like the one video that was posted multiple times on the Nick Falato thread) when Jones could do a better job anticipating a receiver coming open (that is part of the challenge. It does not just look at a receiver and see if he is open, you have to anticipate if that will quickly change). 

I guess where I differ is that I see Jones improving in his vision, processing, and anticipation to the point where he could take full advantage of a proper WR.  I mean, it may not happen right out of the box, but I see it as a situation that would improve as the weeks rolled on.

Jones vision, processing and anticipation are NOT elite. However they are good enough along with other elite facets of his game that when the right system is in place (along with functional enough receiving talent) that he can be a very high level QB and one that you can win a Super Bowl with.

[T200]

Rich,

I agree that the TV vantage point is 'easier' than the QB's. But he's used to that view, as are all QBs.

the QB is reading his receivers and the defense with guys who are 6'3" to 6' 6" tall doing battle in front of him.

IMHO, if his vision is distracted by the defensive line in front of him, I think that lends to my statement that he needs to develop better field vision. My perspective on a QB is that he needs to 'feel' the pass rush (pocket presence/awareness) and 'see' the coverage and his receivers.

And, to circle back to my original point: if he's 'distracted' by the pass rush in front of him, a wide open Jerry Jeudy isn't going to help this offense.

[MightyGiants]

Rich,

I agree that the TV vantage point is 'easier' than the QB's. But he's used to that view, as are all QBs.

IMHO, if his vision is distracted by the defensive line in front of him, I think that lends to my statement that he needs to develop better field vision. My perspective on a QB is that he needs to 'feel' the pass rush (pocket presence/awareness) and 'see' the coverage and his receivers.

And, to circle back to my original point: if he's 'distracted' by the pass rush in front of him, a wide open Jerry Jeudy isn't going to help this offense.

Tim,

I am not saying that Jones is being distracted, but rather that those large men doing battle limit and obstructs his vision.  Ever try to view an event at ground level with people as tall as you standing in front of you?

[Ed Vette]

I have a slightly different take on trading for a WR this year.

First, at 6-2 in the rookie year of the Schoen/Daboll tenure, this team is playing with house money. They came in with a plan and the results are better than they probably expected, as well as the fan base. To me, it's like buying a stock with great future potential but no real hopes of it skyrocketing in the first few weeks. But it does! So do you alter your long-term plan because of the short-term success? Personally, I wouldn't.

Second, and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, I'm a fan of Jones but I still have a problem with his lack of vision and seeing the entire field. Yes, I understand the concept of primary receivers and progressions. But if you have two receivers open on the same side of the field, why throw to the short guy? I've heard the many reasons about the short option being the primary but I just can't fathom Kafka or Daboll criticizing Jones for skipping the primary short target and throwing to an open guy 10 yards down the field.

Bringing in a guy who CAN get open and get separation, in MY view, is NOT going to help Jones see him. That part of his game is lacking and he needs to work on that.

That was one of my points, Tim. So especially considering Jones is often reading progressions on one side of the field and if there is nothing there, he reads the other side. They line up many plays with three or more receivers on one side including the inline TE. He's often reading one side and making a decision unless there;s an intended receiver based on the play call or a pre-snap read. 

[AZGiantFan]

Tim,

I am not saying that Jones is being distracted, but rather that those large men doing battle limit and obstructs his vision.  Ever try to view an event at ground level with people as tall as you standing in front of you?

About 10 years ago the college national championship did a test market of a 3D 'broadcast' of the game at a selection of movie theaters.  There was one near me, so my wife and I went.  It was amazing how hard it was to understand what was going on because how much was blocked out in 3D compared to regular tv.  Those guys are big, and sightlines that make sense on 2D TV were extremely difficult in full 3D.  And they play the game in 3D.

[Hadron]

For 2nd round pick.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34925571/source-bears-get-chase-claypool-trade-steelers