- Daniel Jones - The 5th most sacked QB in the NFL

[Ed Vette]

I actually disagree with this and feel that the Jones supporters are broadly less flexible than the Jones questioners. There are those here who will simply never admit it when Jones has a poor game. It is always the fault of others for these fans - never his. They might admit he made a bad decision on a given play, but they will never admit he played poorly for a whole game. There are always myriad excuses and the blame always falls elsewhere. "He was running for his life the whole game." "The receivers can't get separation." "The play calling was terrible." "He has no running game." "It is impossible to evaluate him." And so on. The "Jones bashers" in my experience have no problem admitting when he plays well. That was certainly the consensus after the Green Bay game, for example. I didn't see anyone bashing him after that performance.

Virtually all of the "Jones bashers" have characterized him as a decent, middle of the road starting QB too, even though going into this season the numbers have said he was bottom third or bottom quarter, and the consensus from coaches and executives per the Athletic survey was that he was 30th. Most "bashers" here think he is somewhere in the teens as far as the starting QB rankings go. And yet many here use these terms like "Jones bashers" and "Jones haters" and claim that anyone who questions Jones or takes a non-adoring view of his game is saying he "stinks." People seem to get emotional about it too, going as far as telling those who questioned a Jones game to "shut up."

The stubbornness around Jones is frankly at the other end. If one is truly objective and really reads what people are saying in these threads, that is not all that difficult to see.

Spot on DB. Not liking a different opinion and resorting to labeling and name calling in a discussion is a common trait here.

[Ed Vette]

Starting a thread with an assertion and then supporting that with one aspect of facts opens up the person to have others scrutinize the reasons for the assertion. When all the facts are laid on the table to clearly show there are multiple reasons why he's the most sacked QB percentage wise and then have the usual folks attack that person for presenting more evidence and labeling the person in a negative light, is just another means of provocation.

[GMenRF]

The title of this thread is also the answer to the question:

Why doesn't DJ hold on to the ball longer, so he throws more deep passes?

It's a matter of trust factor as well.  The pass blocking sustaining their blocks to buy more time and also chemistry with the WRs.  The only ones DJ actually has chemistry with is Slayton and Sheppard that's why even when tightly covered he's willing to let if fly to throw to those guys.  Timing is also a factor when and where they will be so DJ can place the ball where they can make a play.  Having Robinson out the first 5 games of the season and losing Sheppard for sure hindered the pass game.

Hopefully having the bye week, with good self scouting like what Kafka has mentioned and the kind of coaching staff we have in place, they will work those kinks out.

It also makes you more confident on the passing game considering they didn't go out and make a trade for a WR.

[Painter]

Starting a thread with an assertion and then supporting that with one aspect of facts opens up the person to have others scrutinize the reasons for the assertion. When all the facts are laid on the table to clearly show there are multiple reasons why he's the most sacked QB percentage wise and then have the usual folks attack that person for presenting more evidence and labeling the person in a negative light, is just another means of provocation.

It can be difficult for someone to admit to a particular bias as it may be thought as weakening the position. Quite often that is accompanied by a belief that one's biases aren't already obvious which would seem misplaced given the colloquy which occurs every day in a forum such as this.

With that thought in mind, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to acknowledge that our positions are mostly subjective and not always fair; sometimes quite unfair (read biased). In any case, why take the chance of losing one's credibility for so little gain.

Cheers!   

[Jclayton92]

Starting a thread with an assertion and then supporting that with one aspect of facts opens up the person to have others scrutinize the reasons for the assertion. When all the facts are laid on the table to clearly show there are multiple reasons why he's the most sacked QB percentage wise and then have the usual folks attack that person for presenting more evidence and labeling the person in a negative light, is just another means of provocation.

It doesn't matter to them that what I said was actually factual and the other half of the reason for the sacks and that you posted the stats. Because I don't think he'll be retained people don't care about stats. I actually posted a ton of content here a year ago for DJ, I just try to offer a different opinion other than the one through rose colored glasses especially when there are some serious faults in the offense right now that can't simply be boiled down to "Wr".

[Rambo89]

I'm curious as to the sack numbers since the Dallas game and where the Giants rank since then.  Maybe the numbers don't say it but it feels like most of the sacks came in that game and prior to that and there haven't been nearly as many since.

[DaveBrown74]

I'm curious as to the sack numbers since the Dallas game and where the Giants rank since then.  Maybe the numbers don't say it but it feels like most of the sacks came in that game and prior to that and there haven't been nearly as many since.

He was sacked 13 times in the first three games. Since then, in the subsequent five games, he has been sacked 12 times, with most of those 12 coming versus Baltimore and Seattle. In the Bears, Pack, and Jacksonville games he was sacked only one time in each.

There are a few things to consider if we want to look at Jones' sacks holistically:

(1) Jones holds on to the ball longer than almost any other QB in the league. This is a longstanding thing with him, and we all know this. Obviously, the longer you hold the ball, the more often you're going to get sacked.

(2) As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Giants, despite their record, have been playing from behind a lot this year. That gives the D an advantage in the second halves of games as you become more predictable. In the Seattle game for example, two of Jones' five sacks came in the final 2:50 of the game, when they were down two scores.

(3) Jones almost never takes shots downfield, even when there are guys open downfield. What the exact reason is for that is may be up for discussion, but the fact remains that he almost never does it. So defenses can comfortably afford to throw more guys at him knowing that even if he picks it up, the ball is probably not going very far.

[TONKA56]

I actually disagree with this and feel that the Jones supporters are broadly less flexible than the Jones questioners. There are those here who will simply never admit it when Jones has a poor game. It is always the fault of others for these fans - never his. They might admit he made a bad decision on a given play, but they will never admit he played poorly for a whole game. There are always myriad excuses and the blame always falls elsewhere. "He was running for his life the whole game." "The receivers can't get separation." "The play calling was terrible." "He has no running game." "It is impossible to evaluate him." And so on. The "Jones bashers" in my experience have no problem admitting when he plays well. That was certainly the consensus after the Green Bay game, for example. I didn't see anyone bashing him after that performance.

Virtually all of the "Jones bashers" have characterized him as a decent, middle of the road starting QB too, even though going into this season the numbers have said he was bottom third or bottom quarter, and the consensus from coaches and executives per the Athletic survey was that he was 30th. Most "bashers" here think he is somewhere in the teens as far as the starting QB rankings go. And yet many here use these terms like "Jones bashers" and "Jones haters" and claim that anyone who questions Jones or takes a non-adoring view of his game is saying he "stinks." People seem to get emotional about it too, going as far as telling those who questioned a Jones game to "shut up."

The stubbornness around Jones is frankly at the other end. If one is truly objective and really reads what people are saying in these threads, that is not all that difficult to see.

Actually, I was pretty ready to say goodbye to Jones prior to this season, but he has shown me some grit, mental toughness, and ability to respond to coaching that I haven't really seen in him before.  The team recognizes him as the leader, and there's something to be said for that. This isn't Madden where you can just plug and unplug guys randomly and expect them to form a cohesive unit.  I think some folks just can't but associate him with Gettleman and the Gettleman stink will never clear until Jones is gone and maybe even Barkley too. It is not based in objective logic.

[TONKA56]

The title of this thread is also the answer to the question:

Why doesn't DJ hold on to the ball longer, so he throws more deep passes?

We have folks saying he holds to ball too long.

[Jclayton92]

We have folks saying he holds to ball too long.

Because he does. He has the 30th ranked time to throw in the league only in front of the Jets and bears QB. That coupled with his average Air Yards at 6 and he's holding it forever just to throw short.  If he was holding the ball long to throw the ball long it would show in his air yards but he's holding the ball forever and refusing to go long which is the disconnect and allows for the pressures and the sacks. He's either hesitant, gun shy, or isn't reading the field properly. Either way when you couple air yards and TT as a stat it speaks to something being wrong with the QB not the line.

Ed posted stats earlier In the thread Showing some of his time to throw and pressures that he's directly responsible for, not the oline.

[TONKA56]

Because he does. He has the 30th ranked time to throw in the league only in front of the Jets and bears QB. That coupled with his average Air Yards at 6 and he's holding it forever just to throw short.  If he was holding the ball long to throw the ball long it would show in his air yards but he's holding the ball forever and refusing to go long which is the disconnect and allows for the pressures and the sacks. He's either hesitant, gun shy, or isn't reading the field properly. Either way when you couple air yards and TT as a stat it speaks to something being wrong with the QB not the line.

Ed posted stats earlier In the thread Showing some of his time to throw and pressures that he's directly responsible for, not the oline.

Not the point. The point is we have folks arguing that he needs to get rid of it sooner and hold on to it longer so guys can get open deep in the same thread. 

[kingm56]

Because he does. He has the 30th ranked time to throw in the league only in front of the Jets and bears QB. That coupled with his average Air Yards at 6 and he's holding it forever just to throw short.  If he was holding the ball long to throw the ball long it would show in his air yards but he's holding the ball forever and refusing to go long which is the disconnect and allows for the pressures and the sacks. He's either hesitant, gun shy, or isn't reading the field properly. Either way when you couple air yards and TT as a stat it speaks to something being wrong with the QB not the line.

Ed posted stats earlier In the thread Showing some of his time to throw and pressures that he's directly responsible for, not the oline.

Those dang pesky FACTS...

[kingm56]

Not the point. The point is we have folks arguing that he needs to get rid of it sooner and hold on to it longer so guys can get open deep in the same thread. 

Who is arguing he needs to get rid of it sooner?  Besides, this isn't a binary decision.  For example, on blitzes, if it's picked-up, he can hold the ball longer and try to take advantage of man-to-man and/or zero coverage schemes; conversely, if the protection breaks down, he needs to read hot.  This has never been DJ's strength...

[DaveBrown74]

We have folks saying he holds to ball too long.

Actually, I did not say he holds on to it too long. I said he holds on to it longer than most QBs, which he does. That's not an opinion - it's a fact.

[DaveBrown74]

Not the point. The point is we have folks arguing that he needs to get rid of it sooner and hold on to it longer so guys can get open deep in the same thread. 

Who in this thread said he needs to get rid of it sooner?

Bringing up that he holds onto it longer than most other QBs is not the same thing as stating that he has to get rid of it sooner. Seems to me you made that part up.