Could Daboll be on the hot seat?!

[nicky1000]

I just feel that this is a throwaway year, for the team, and Daboll. He certainly didn't do himself favors this year but he stays. I suspect some changes will include those requested of Coughlin. Daboll needs a reset, same as this team. As cliche as it sounds, he may need to call for and LISTEN to a leadership council, like TC did.

Also, Kafka is Hufnagel 2.0. Daboll needs to either stop being loyal to coaches who are subpar, or if these aren't his decisions, request that Mara allow him to make some choices in the staff if he too is being asked to make changes.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Blaming Kafka or really any coach for this mess seems ridiculous to me. Daniel Jones was terrible. The OL was injured and terrible. No amount of coaching could have made up for that. And now we will have a QB who doesn't even belong on an NFL roster. Kafka and Daboll didn't forget how to coach since last season. Get them a real QB and add players to the OL and a lot of progress will be made next season.

[Jaime]

Daboll may have been with the Bills for 20 years and developed some talent, but5 he wasn't a

[andrew_nyGiants]

Yeah I'm not upset with Daboll or schoen. I think they are great. You can't win without elite Qb play and I firmly believed this was going to be a complete rebuild which is why I was against the Jones and Barkley signings. We've basically missed both all season anyways. They can't coach what isn't there.

Playing Devils advocate here. Aren't Daboll and Schoen the two who ultimately made the decision to sign DJ to the extension and sign Barkley?

You say they're great which I would like to believe, but who then is held to account for the current financial predicament the franchise is in with DJs contract.

If they truly believed they were in a full rebuild, why did they spend so much $$$ this off-season?


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[DaveBrown74]

Playing Devils advocate here. Aren't Daboll and Schoen the two who ultimately made the decision to sign DJ to the extension and sign Barkley?

You say they're great which I would like to believe, but who then is held to account for the current financial predicament the franchise is in with DJs contract.

If they truly believed they were in a full rebuild, why did they spend so much $$$ this off-season?


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I think it's totally fair to hold Schoen (and by extension Daboll) responsible for the Jones contract. We can't pat them on the back for good moves they have made if we're going to give them a pass on bad ones. I do think there's something to be said for (1) the lack of other great options at the time (albeit this doesn't fully get them off the hook) and (2) the fact that they built in somewhat of an escape hatch after year two. Still, even with that escape hatch, they're screwed in 2024, and they'll still have to eat some decent dead money in 2025, so it definitely hurts.

With the luxury of hindsight, the best move IMO would have been to tag Jones and see how he plays in 2023 and whether he was able to stay healthy for two years in a row instead of just the one. In no way am I suggesting today that that was obvious or easy at the time. It wasn't. Tagging him would have meant taking the full hit in 2023, and almost certainly it would have meant losing Barkley, the linchpin of the offense in 2022. Given the fact they were coming off one of the only two winning seasons in a decade plus a playoff win, it was not going to be an easy sell to play it that way, and I doubt Mara would have been supportive.

Anyway, the if-only game is kind of tiresome, as it can be applied to any team's decisions, as nobody makes every move perfectly. At least we don't have Jones on some Kyler Murray type contract. The Giants will be in a position to draft his long term replacement in the upcoming draft, and then ease that player in with Jones (or some other backup) starting the season and potentially playing a good part or even all of it.

So we can sulk and moan all we want, but the situation is what it is, and there are certain aspects of it that provide reasons to have some optimism and hope about potentially getting a big talent upgrade at the QB position.

[andrew_nyGiants]

I think it's totally fair to hold Schoen (and by extension Daboll) responsible for the Jones contract. We can't pat them on the back for good moves they have made if we're going to give them a pass on bad ones. I do think there's something to be said for (1) the lack of other great options at the time (albeit this doesn't fully get them off the hook) and (2) the fact that they built in somewhat of an escape hatch after year two. Still, even with that escape hatch, they're screwed in 2024, and they'll still have to eat some decent dead money in 2025, so it definitely hurts.

With the luxury of hindsight, the best move IMO would have been to tag Jones and see how he plays in 2023 and whether he was able to stay healthy for two years in a row instead of just the one. In no way am I suggesting today that that was obvious or easy at the time. It wasn't. Tagging him would have meant taking the full hit in 2023, and almost certainly it would have meant losing Barkley, the linchpin of the offense in 2022. Given the fact they were coming off one of the only two winning seasons in a decade plus a playoff win, it was not going to be an easy sell to play it that way, and I doubt Mara would have been supportive.

Anyway, the if-only game is kind of tiresome, as it can be applied to any team's decisions, as nobody makes every move perfectly. At least we don't have Jones on some Kyler Murray type contract. The Giants will be in a position to draft his long term replacement in the upcoming draft, and then ease that player in with Jones (or some other backup) starting the season and potentially playing a good part or even all of it.

So we can sulk and moan all we want, but the situation is what it is, and there are certain aspects of it that provide reasons to have some optimism and hope about potentially getting a big talent upgrade at the QB position.

Well respectfully, for me this isn't about sulking and more about getting out of this definition of insanity that ownership seems to continue to pull us in.

Give them hope that we're headed in the right direction by throwing a bunch of $$$ into an off-season, only to collapse again after all of the spending.

My point as the OP of this thread was to hold Daboll up as an example of what a pattern the Maras seem to be stuck in. "Don't rebuild, retool so we don't lose the fans, and oh by the way here are the untouchable players we expert decision makers dictate that you should retool around...you can do this, RIGHT?"

At least that's how it looks to me, and while I see Daboll & Schoen as two very talented football men, it's kind of difficult to show your wares with this level of meddling.


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[Giant Obsession]

Blaming Kafka or really any coach for this mess seems ridiculous to me. Daniel Jones was terrible. The OL was injured and terrible. No amount of coaching could have made up for that. And now we will have a QB who doesn't even belong on an NFL roster. Kafka and Daboll didn't forget how to coach since last season. Get them a real QB and add players to the OL and a lot of progress will be made next season.

You do realize that the circumstances in your post apply basically in total to Joe Judge's tenure.  And forget the QB sneak to prevent a safety in the first half of the Washington game.  That game and Judge's last 4 games were unwinnable since he was saddled with DeVito like talent at QB....who were those guys anyway and where are they now ??

[DaveBrown74]

You do realize that the circumstances in your post apply basically in total to Joe Judge's tenure.  And forget the QB sneak to prevent a safety in the first half of the Washington game.  That game and Judge's last 4 games were unwinnable since he was saddled with DeVito like talent at QB....who were those guys anyway and where are they now ??

I'd say the difference in the two tenures was that Judge/Gettleman did nothing but fail, whereas Daboll/Schoen had a reasonably (or at least relatively) successful year last year in their debuts.

Even if you take the opinion that the 6-1 start was a mirage that involved winning with mirrors against terrible teams (not an unfair stance), they did win a road playoff game, which was pretty impressive. Judge has nothing remotely like that on his resume.

[Giant Jim]

I'd say the difference in the two tenures was that Judge/Gettleman did nothing but fail, whereas Daboll/Schoen had a reasonably (or at least relatively) successful year last year in their debuts.

Even if you take the opinion that the 6-1 start was a mirage that involved winning with mirrors against terrible teams (not an unfair stance), they did win a road playoff game, which was pretty impressive. Judge has nothing remotely like that on his resume.

1981 was a tease but we didn't know it at the time, so '83 was extremely disappointing because they were as bad as the previous 17 or 18 seasons. I always felt 2016 & last year were teases because I knew the team wasn't that good. The drafts and free agents after '16 were to patch holes, adding very little to the foundation. I didn't expect a winning or playoff season this year, but I did expect to see better offensive line play, more competitive games against teams like Dallas and solid wins against teams like the Raiders. I'm not ready to jump ship with Daboll, but this season is winding down to look like '82/83 & '17. Does anyone think this team is any better than McAdoo, Shurmur or Judges talent wise? If Jones can't start at the beginning of next year, they're worse. If the Giants are done with Jones, for any reason, the rebuild restarts from ground zero and we're looking to reach the bad run like the 20 years of lousy football we had from '64-'83.

The Giants were the laughing stock of pro football (NFL & AFL) under Wellington Mara's guidance until he agreed to step aside and let a qualified GM run the team without his interference. John kept them down for most of this run, I don't know if he still is too involved, but my bet is, he is. John needs to talk to knowledgeable football people, not just Belicick, to properly evaluate Joe Schoen and if he decides he's not the problem, Schoen or the new GM need to determine Daboll's fate without any input from any Mara.

[Philosophers]

I thought the Giants might win 1 more game but now believe they will lose out.  Top 5 or even maybe top 3 pick assured.

We are fooling ourselves if we think we only need a good QB.  No QB will play well here until other problems addressed too.  A QB may play better than DJ but you wont get top 10 QB play with those injuries and play.

[DaveBrown74]

I thought the Giants might win 1 more game but now believe they will lose out. 

The week 18 home game against the eagles is a problem. That game is likely to mean nothing to them, and if losing that game means they'll screw the giants out of a top 2 pick, you can bet your bottom dollar they'll make sure they do. They have zero scruples (we've seen them throw games before), and they'll love screwing the gmen. Plus why would you want Caleb Williams or Drake Maye in your division if you can prevent it.

And of course, the Giants (who will have Taylor back) will throw the kitchen sink at that game and try to win one for pride purposes.

We need the Eagles to start losing some games so that that game means something to them. At least for seeding. If they have the number one seed locked up for that game I guarantee you they throw it and we try to win.

[Dgoodmantrublu]

Judge never had a year when he made the playoffs. He was a tyrant who made his team run laps after practice for no reason. Multiple players retired rather than stay on the team. He had a complete meltdowm in a press conference. Multiple GMs were going to refuse to interview if he stayed the coach. Not a comparable situation at all.

You do realize that the circumstances in your post apply basically in total to Joe Judge's tenure.  And forget the QB sneak to prevent a safety in the first half of the Washington game.  That game and Judge's last 4 games were unwinnable since he was saddled with DeVito like talent at QB....who were those guys anyway and where are they now ??

[EDjohnst1981]

Judge never had a year when he made the playoffs. He was a tyrant who made his team run laps after practice for no reason. Multiple players retired rather than stay on the team. He had a complete meltdowm in a press conference. Multiple GMs were going to refuse to interview if he stayed the coach. Not a comparable situation at all.

Yeah, situations aren't comparable at all in my view. Judge was a nightmare on at every turn in that second year.

[4 Aces]

The Giants as an organization need to examine their approach and what their blueprint and plans really look like.  Answer some basic questions like "what identity do we want" (currently don't have one) and what strategically are we doing with the roster to build a winning culture?

The latter question is what makes me feel we're light years away. The Giants have had one of the youngest rosters in the league, focused on drafting 21 year olds, purged the roster of almost anyone 29+. And they've played like it. Not 1 player in the lockerroom setting a winning standard and holding the young players accountable to it. To me, this is one of the reasons they've acquired so many highly rated college players only to watch them flop. They get here, they have a little bit of initial success sometimes, then they regress. Who is showing them how to do it right? Nobody on this team. Nobody's won.

Meanwhile PHI and DAL are able to integrate and develop young players because they have players on their roster showing them the way. How about having Kelce and Lane Johnson on the OL? Graham and Cox on the DL? Slay & Bradberry at CB? They've got veterans who have won games and/or played at an All Pro level, leading the way. At every position group. It becomes a cottage factory. The Giants had this under Coughlin and almost all their acquisitions hit.

To me, you head into this offseason almost like it's an expansion team, looking to set a core infrastructure to develop and promote winning. Go back to the basic roster building strategy of 1 veteran leader at each position group. Even if they're over 30. Guys that have won in the NFL and like to lead. No - they aren't a part of your future. But you won't have a future if you don't bring in some of these guys to set the tone.

**EDIT: apologies for the long post, it's been a long year....

Look at the 10 captains of the Giants this year: Tell me which one of these guys has a winning NFL background and the personality to hold his teammates accountable:

1. Daniel Jones (good lead by example guy, not much winning in the NFL, QB of historically bad offense much of his career)
2. Saquon Barkley (good vocal leader, the poster boy for this losing Giants team, seems to panic in the clutch)
3. Darren Waller (good vocal leader, has never won much in the NFL)
4. Andrew Thomas (young, quiet guy, good player that has played on a historically bad NFL offense his whole career)
5. Dexter Lawrence (kind of a gentle Giant, soft-spoken. Hall of Fame talent but not the guy you want as a mouthpiece)
6. Leonard Williams (gone)
7. Bobby Okereke (step in the right direction here)
8. Adoree Jackson (give me a break)
9. Xavier McKinney (give me a break)
10. Graham Gano (a kicker isn't going to set the tone I'm talking about)

So these 10 captains are leading us.....where, exactly?