Stapleton: QB evaluations

[Jclayton92]

Jones is not a good qb, he wasn't at Duke, and he hasn't been in the NFL. You can't develop someone that's lacking everything mentally to play the position he plays. Yes he's tough but beyond that he can't process, and still habitually makes the same rookie mistakes.

I'd argue Jones was so bad he made the offense look significantly worse than it actually was this year.

[BluesCruz]

DeVito made three stick throws in one game. I don't think Jones has done that in one season. Definitely none this season. The fact that DeVito threw downfield to Hyatt multiple times even if he wasn't wide open already makes him a better QB.

Amen

Jones is a very stiff qb.....his game is wound tight and just has zero rythym

he tries too hard.....overthinks everything

Tommy is cool as a cucumber

very different styles and results

[Ed Vette]

Jones is not a good qb, he wasn't at Duke, and he hasn't been in the NFL. You can't develop someone that's lacking everything mentally to play the position he plays. Yes he's tough but beyond that he can't process, and still habitually makes the same rookie mistakes.

I'd argue Jones was so bad he made the offense look significantly worse than it actually was this year.

Still, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.

[Jclayton92]

Still, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.

Maybe he'll take him for a comp pick

[DaveBrown74]

Maybe he'll take him for a comp pick

We're the only team and fanbase who regard Jones as a quality starter.

[katkavage]

We're the only team and fanbase who regard Jones as a quality starter.

The Giants fans and press and ownership live in a bubble. Best evaluations are made objectively from the outside. That is why Jones is ranked as he has been. Middle to lower pack QB.

[DaveBrown74]

The Giants fans and press and ownership live in a bubble. Best evaluations are made objectively from the outside. That is why Jones is ranked as he has been. Middle to lower pack QB.

As an organization and fan base we are highly guilty of overrating our own players. To be fair to Jones, he is not the only one. It has been going on for quite a while. We also get much more emotional about players than other teams do, including when we're losing, which has been the vast majority of the past decade. See guys like Shepard and Barkley. We get way more emotional about players than players get emotional about the team and its fans. See the countless examples of times fans get miffed when a player the team is looking to re-sign doesn't give us a "hometown discount."

[GloryDays]

Here is my 4 cents:

1- Our O line is performing better than earlier in the season, mostly due to the addition of Pugh and also Phillips taking some snaps over Neal, who is a bust at Tackle imo. Devito is still being sacked a lot, but these seem to be more coverage sacks than constant collapse of the pocket like DJ was experiencing earlier.

2- Devito seems to be an unpolished Diamond in the rough. Credit goes mostly to those who were able to see his potential and secondly to the coaching (imho). He has more mental edge to him than physical, but he has enough of both to help him succeed and even become a good starter in the league.

3- Whether it's talent deficiency or coaching or play calling, the Receivers are disappointing in getting separation quickly, so our QBs could to throw to them, before they have to tuck it in. Unfortunately, watching regular TV camera angles, it is difficult to know who and what is at fault; but Devito, who is not afraid to sling it, is clearly looking and looking, then he either pulls it in and gets sacked or runs. I would love to hear from others on this, if they have better information.

[spiderblue43]

Tommy has made the best pure throws in his short term than Jones ever did this year TD shows antipaction and touch rarely seen from DJ.

Now is that Daboll's influence or simply that Jones can't cut it? He was so awful this year, it's hard for others to look worse..quite frankly.

[kingm56]

Still, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.

I suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited.  Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups.   It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games.  Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper.  It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll.  In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.   

I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer:  why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely?  I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into a sustained above average/PB starter, simply by changing coaches.  Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers.  Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple. 

[DaveBrown74]

Tommy has made the best pure throws in his short term than Jones ever did this year TD shows antipaction and touch rarely seen from DJ.

Now is that Daboll's influence or simply that Jones can't cut it? He was so awful this year, it's hard for others to look worse..quite frankly.

I don't think Jones is as bad as he played this year, if that makes any sense. This year was particularly bad, and I think he's capable of better than what he did in 2023.

However, the facts on the ground still are what they are. The bottom line is he got outplayed by not one but two of his own teammates at the same position dealing with the same conditions. That is not to say these other QBs did well, but the point here is they definitely weren't worse than Jones. Both were better by the numbers and the eye test. These QB teammates make small fractions (tiny, in DeVito's case) of what Jones is now making. It's simply not a good look, and the organization knows it. It is in plain view for everyone to see now. The jig is up.

[DaveBrown74]

I suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited.  Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups.   It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games.  Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper.  It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll.  In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.   

I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer:  why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely?  I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into an above average starter, simply by changing coaching.  Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers.  Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple. 

Totally agree King, and there are examples all over the place that back your point up.

Joe Montana had probably his best season ever in 1989. That was the year Seifert took over for Walsh. Was Seifert a better coach than Bill Walsh? Or was Montana just a an elite player who played great throughout his career and happened to put up his best numbers that year?

Bill Walsh was an all time great and a legend. Seifert is basically an afterthought. Shouldn't Montana's performance have collapsed in 1989, if coaches have such influence? Why was that pretty much his best season?

[Ed Vette]

I suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited.  Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups.   It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games.  Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper.  It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll.  In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.   

I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer:  why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely?  I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into a sustained above average/PB starter, simply by changing coaches.  Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers.  Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple. 

https://www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2016/4/22/11477522/veteran-nfl-qbs-who-got-better-after-changing-teams

[Ed Vette]

https://www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2016/4/22/11477522/veteran-nfl-qbs-who-got-better-after-changing-teams

Bill Parcells- Phil Simms

[Ed Vette]

Bill Parcells- Phil Simms

Reid had a hand in the development of McNabb, Vick, Smith and as an assistant Farve.