I think the 6th Pick is possibly the most awkward position

[Gmo11]

There's still too many outstanding questions to understand the direction the Giants should take at #6.  What are the Bears doing with Justin Fields?  Who is taking over in Foxboro (if not Belichick) and what is the QB situation like after free agency? 

I've asserted for some time that it's unlikely the Giants go QB in the draft and I think the finally 5-6 games landed in a way that will only reinforce that ideology within the front office.  There's too much money tied up in Daniel Jones with no easy "out" until next year.  The Giants showed some scrap with backup qbs, realistically could have (and should have) beaten both the Jets, Bills and Rams.  We had a host of injuries.  I think Schoen and the front office will view things through the light of "lost season" moreso than "lost team".  They'll look to augment the existing team and shore up weak areas and roll the dice with Jones again. 

With the Giants at 6, I think you let the draft come to you and see what happens.  Getting additional draft capital by trading down should always be a priority, especially if you can land first round picks in subsequent years.  BPA seems the order of the day.

Wouldn't the last couple weeks only fortify the belief that they need a QB?  The minute they got even semi-competent QB play the team became watchable.  Even frisky.  Imagine if they got ACTUAL competent QB play.  And there's no guarantee a rookie would provide that, but there's absolute a guarantee that Jones/Devito won't.  So I'd rather roll the dice on a top rookie prospect.  If they can't get one of the Big 3, I think whichever QB is left in Round 2 they should pull the trigger then.  Even if it's Nix or Penix or McCarthy.  I'd rather take my chances with them than tie the franchise to Jones any further than next season.

[MightyGiants]

There's still too many outstanding questions to understand the direction the Giants should take at #6.  What are the Bears doing with Justin Fields?  Who is taking over in Foxboro (if not Belichick) and what is the QB situation like after free agency? 

I've asserted for some time that it's unlikely the Giants go QB in the draft and I think the finally 5-6 games landed in a way that will only reinforce that ideology within the front office.  There's too much money tied up in Daniel Jones with no easy "out" until next year.  The Giants showed some scrap with backup qbs, realistically could have (and should have) beaten both the Jets, Bills and Rams.  We had a host of injuries.  I think Schoen and the front office will view things through the light of "lost season" moreso than "lost team".  They'll look to augment the existing team and shore up weak areas and roll the dice with Jones again. 

With the Giants at 6, I think you let the draft come to you and see what happens.  Getting additional draft capital by trading down should always be a priority, especially if you can land first round picks in subsequent years.  BPA seems the order of the day.

Unless a really good QB falls to the Giants in round one or two, I can't say this is a terrible plan.   The Giants' biggest issue is a lack of talent across the board.   From what I have seen talented teams that draft a QB tend to be more successful developing them than less talented teams who draft a QB.

[DaveBrown74]

Kind of a bizarre, silly question to ask Jones. What answer is the reporter (sounded like Schwartz) expecting?


https://twitter.com/SNYGiants/status/1744388629072367680

[Fletch]

Unless a really good QB falls to the Giants in round one or two, I can't say this is a terrible plan.  The Giants' biggest issue is a lack of talent across the board.  From what I have seen talented teams that draft a QB tend to be more successful developing them than less talented teams who draft a QB.

This tired old argument again. It is just more excuses for keeping Jones and being proven right that it is really the team and jones really does not suck but needed more help.

Really like who? The only team I can think of where that is even remotely applicable is Seahawks / Russ Wilson. Meanwhile Pete Caroll nearly lost the locker room with his faith in a young Russ Wilson. I think some resent Wilson to this day for it. No one wants to wait around to develop a rookie QB when they are stacked.

And please do not bring up the likes of Mahomes and the Chiefs and Alex Smith. They were already a solid playoff team that needed something to get over the hump. The Giants and not that , not even close.

[MightyGiants]

Kind of a bizarre, silly question to ask Jones. What answer is the reporter (sounded like Schwartz) expecting?

The quality of the Giants' beat writers has diminished over the years.  I am not sure if that's a function of the team being perennial losers or if the quality of sports reporters has diminished.

Totally agree; this is a really dumb question.  They might as well just invite fans in to ask questions if that's the sort of question that will be asked.  Hell, I think the fans here could ask superior questions to that one.

[MightyGiants]

This tired old argument again. It is just more excuses for keeping Jones and being proven right that it is really the team and jones really does not suck but needed more help.

Really like who? The only team I can think of where that is even remotely applicable is Seahawks / Russ Wilson. Meanwhile Pete Caroll nearly lost the locker room with his faith in a young Russ Wilson. I think some resent Wilson to this day for it. No one wants to wait around to develop a rookie QB when they are stacked.

And please do not bring up the likes of Mahomes and the Chiefs and Alex Smith. They were already a solid playoff team that needed something to get over the hump. The Giants and not that , not even close.

 

Brock Purdy
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen

[londonblue]

On talent I think we are better than that expected win projection suggests outside our OL. We played better late season than earlier in the year. We got more out of our QB position. We took more shots downfield. The D forced turnovers. We were in every game in December/January.

I do agree that we have far too few elite playmakers on both sides of the ball to contend but our 'average starter' and 'primary back-up' talent is generally not terrible, again parking the OL.

We are 15-18-1 in the Schoen/Daboll era. I think that is about who and what we are, a below average but somewhat competitive team who get manhandled by elite teams.

Obviously the blowouts by the Cowboys highlight how far beyond QB our problems go but this is true of at least half the NFL. Given our closeness to our team we tend to lose a bit of perspective. There are things to build on.

[Fletch]

Brock Purdy
Jalen Hurts
Dak Prescott
Lamar Jackson
Josh Allen

So the Gaints are a SB team now or we should develop one first and then pick a QB?

People just love pulling Brock Purdy out their but every time.

Let's talk about the 9ers and Brock Purdy. This was a Super Bowl team that went to Super bowl with Jimmy G. They used up 2 #1s to get a Tray Lance. He beat out all those other guys to get the spot.

Jones got to play here a scholarship

Jalen Hurts again same thing. He replaced a QB that had MVP votes to his credit and was a team that won a SB with Nick Foles.

Lamar Jackson and Allen? Really? They got developed? They don't get any credit for being superstar athletes themselves?

[MightyGiants]

On talent I think we are better than that expected win projection suggests outside our OL. We played better late season than earlier in the year. We got more out of our QB position. We took more shots downfield. The D forced turnovers. We were in every game in December/January.

I do agree that we have far too few elite playmakers on both sides of the ball to contend but our 'average starter' and 'primary back-up' talent is generally not terrible, again parking the OL.

We are 15-18-1 in the Schoen/Daboll era. I think that is about who and what we are, a below average but somewhat competitive team who get manhandled by elite teams.

Obviously the blowouts by the Cowboys highlight how far beyond QB our problems go but this is true of at least half the NFL. Given our closeness to our team we tend to lose a bit of perspective. There are things to build on.

Mike Lombardi developed the concept of blue-chip and red-chip players

Definition of a blue-chip player
» Player demonstrates rare abilities and can create mismatches that have an obvious impact on the game
» Is a premier player in the league and a weapon on the field
» Combines competitiveness and skill to have a consistent championship-level performance
» Rates in the top five at his position in the league

Definition of a red-chip player
» Player has abilities that can create mismatches vs. most opponents in the league
» Is a featured player on the team and has impact on the outcome of the game
» Player can't be taken out of the game in one-on-one matchup
» Has a consistent level of performance each week
» Plays at a championship-level performance
» Rates in the top 10 at his position in the league


Now I found an old article from 2011 that listed the number of blue and red chip players each team had.  So for reference the best teams in 2011 (Mike counted HCs in the list)

Steelers-  BC- 8 RC- 4
Packers-  BC- 7 RC- 5

Ranked 10th

Colts-  BC- 4  RC- 1
This is the same count as the 11th ranked Vikings


So where do the Giants sit?

Blue-Chip

Dex

Red-Chip

Thomas, maybe KT

[zephirus]

Wouldn't the last couple weeks only fortify the belief that they need a QB?  The minute they got even semi-competent QB play the team became watchable.  Even frisky.  Imagine if they got ACTUAL competent QB play.  And there's no guarantee a rookie would provide that, but there's absolute a guarantee that Jones/Devito won't.  So I'd rather roll the dice on a top rookie prospect.  If they can't get one of the Big 3, I think whichever QB is left in Round 2 they should pull the trigger then.  Even if it's Nix or Penix or McCarthy.  I'd rather take my chances with them than tie the franchise to Jones any further than next season.

If Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

[Fletch]

If Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

We'll be saying the same things 2-3 seasons from now. We had options last season. Derrick Carr was available .... yeay yeah he sucks right 4x pro bowl , 25 Tds this year . You had Baker playing well and available.

[DaveBrown74]

Jones is a sunk cost at this point. There is nothing we can do about him other than eat the $47mm hit next season and then bail out after that and move on. That reality should not influence whether or not we draft a QB. The fact that we can't move Jones proves he has no value and that we need to go in another direction at this position ASAP.

And just because Jones is on the team at that exorbitant cap hit doesn't mean he has to play all year. The money is gone either way. That shouldn't (and won't) preclude them from making the correct decisions from here. The same way a good poker player doesn't remain in a hand he knows he's beat in just because he already put money into the pot.

[Fletch]

What are the options anyway? WHo will be starting QB in camp next season Devito? Or will Jones be ready by then?

[Gmo11]

If Daniel Jones weren't carrying massive cap implications I'd be inclined to agree with you.  But the reality is that he's on the team next year.  Drafting a QB and having a $40m a year backup is probably the fastest way for Schoen to get a pink-slip and be shown the door.  I also simply disagree that there's a huge disparity in play between Jones and Taylor.  I absolutely think any game the Giants won with DeVito or Taylor could have been won with Jones. 

I don't like the prospect of the Giants rolling into next season with Jones more than many here, but it's a reality that we need to accept because that's how the NFL is designed.  The Giants made a big mistake extending him, and drafting another QB in the first doesn't materially help the team, it probably hamstrings it by expending valuable draft capital, creating a QB controversy, and tying up cap space.

People think that going into next season with Jones as starter is like "doubling down" on idiocy.  It's not.  It's probably the best option we have in order to field a competitive team in the near future without hamstringing our cap and introducing more volatile change with wholesale personnel changes. I'm not espousing "patience" with Jones, I'm espousing "prudence" with regards to team culture and stability.  The prudent thing to do is draft BPA, see how things fall, and show Jones the door next off-season when that action doesn't completely decimate our cap situation, which for those of you with short memories, is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

I get what you're saying about the 40 million but you can get away with a 40 million dollar backup if your starter is on a rookie deal. And it would only be for one season.  It's an expiring contract after next season. 

Maybe Jones could have won those games but not if he was going to play the way he did to start the season where he stubbornly refused to throw more than 5 yards down the field.  And it wasn't the OL because Taylor and even Devito found ways to throw downfield from time to time.  Jones didn't.

Jones' is going to be on the roster next year we can all agree on that.  There's no way to get rid of him.  So whether the Giants draft a QB at 6 or a DE that guy is going to be paid the same money so it doesn't change the finances for next season. 

I would certainly not want to trade a million picks to move up to like #1 for Caleb Williams because the team isn't good enough for that, but to move from 6 to 5 so the Chargers don't sell Jayden Daniels out from under them?  I might be willing to do that.  If QBs go 1-2-3 then I think they go BPA and hope that one of Penix/Nix/McCarthy are around in Round 2 and take one of them there. 

[DaveBrown74]

What are the options anyway? WHo will be starting QB in camp next season Devito? Or will Jones be ready by then?

Neither. They'll either bring back Tyrod or some other cheap vet (assuming they don't draft a rookie they're comfortable playing in week one).

No way DeVito is our week one starter. Zero chance of that. Better chance he's not even a Giant than that he's our starter in week one or playing with the ones in camp.