Wink and the Giants bigger picture

[MightyGiants]

Classic strawman argument, Rich.

Tim,

At the risk of being pedantic, I didn't put forth a strawman argument.   A strawman argument misrepresents what someone else said (so they can tear down the false construct).  @coggs was suggesting (at least that's how I understood him that players may not have been happy with Wilkson.   I didn't misrepresent that point; I pointed to evidence that I felt would make that less likely.  You may not agree with my interpretation of the evidence, but that isn't the same as a strawman argument, assuming I didn't misunderstand Coggs.

[coggs]

I had heard the lack of pass rush associated with the defense and poor development of Thibs as it relates to the fest or famine style of his play was the main issue with Drew Wilkins

Not sure how much of this is true or not

There was definitely a problem with the pass rush.  With the exception of New England, the Jets, and Washngton, QBs had all day to throw against this defense.  How much of that is on Wilkins, I can't say.

[T200]

Tim,

At the risk of being pedantic, I didn't put forth a strawman argument.  A strawman argument misrepresents what someone else said (so they can tear down the false construct).  @coggs was suggesting (at least that's how I understood him that players may not have been happy with Wilkson.  I didn't misrepresent that point; I pointed to evidence that I felt would make that less likely.  You may not agree with my interpretation of the evidence, but that isn't the same as a strawman argument, assuming I didn't misunderstand Coggs.

The misrepresentation of what Coggs said was taking

could have been players who had an issue with one or both of the Wilkins

and turning it into something that was not even close to what was said. It was a gross misinterpretation of what was said.

[MightyGiants]

The misrepresentation of what Coggs said was taking
and turning it into something that was not even close to what was said. It was a gross misinterpretation of what was said.

Tim,

To expand on my point, it's been reported that the Wilkins brothers are attached at the hip to Wink.  I find it improbable that the players all loved Wink (based on their words and what has been reported) if the guys he was attached to were coaches the players didn't like or had issues with.

[T200]

Tim,

To expand on my point, it's been reported that the Wilkins brothers are attached at the hip to Wink.  I find it improbable that the players all loved Wink (based on their words and what has been reported) if the guys he was attached to were coaches the players didn't like or had issues with.

Not so. People didn't like OBJ... did they stop rooting for the Giants?

[MightyGiants]

Not so. People didn't like OBJ... did they stop rooting for the Giants?

As I said, you may not agree with how I interpreted the evidence, but that doesn't mean it's a strawman.

[babywhales]

To be fair Wink's defense was not good. 
2022
25th yards
15th passing yards
20th Passing TD's
27th rushing yards
9th rushing TD's
3rd in penalties
25th take aways


2023
27th  Yards
19th Passing YArds
11 Passing Td's
29th Rushing Yards
31st Rushing Td's
1st Take Aways
19th Penalties
26th Scoring
25th Red Zone

The only real positive with the 1st ranked Take Away Defense and the 9th ranked 3rd Down Defense


The dysfunction leading to Wink wanting to leave is a bigger issue than the lose of a DC who ran a bottom 5 defense IMO

The Giants defense was massively inefficient, 2nd in NFL in missed tackles, 1st in Blitzing 45.4 % to get to a 8.8% QB hurry per drop back (7th),  17th in pressure % , 2nd on Yards after the catch and sacks (34-29th)

that is better than last year when they led the league in blitz % at 39.7 % but only had a hurry rate per drop back of 7.4% (11th in NFL). Last year Yards after the catch was better (ranked 12th) and sacks (41-13th)


It could be worse with Wink gone but the guy was not running a solid defense.  This year it was a bottom 5 defense and based on the discord and his attitude in no way would I want him back

[MightyGiants]

@babywhales

I pointed out in the other thread that if the Giants didn't think very highly of Wink's abilities as a DC, they wouldn't be worried he would go down the Turnpike and work for the Eagles (as has been reported by beatwriters).

[babywhales]

@babywhales

I pointed out in the other thread that if the Giants didn't think very highly of Wink's abilities as a DC, they wouldn't be worried he would go down the Turnpike and work for the Eagles (as has been reported by beatwriters).

He will be gone and free to choose his destination at some point very soon. 


If they were truly worried they would not have intentionally started this war with him. They knew he was leaving, as such they tried to orchestrate it by having a 8:30 am presser announcing 2 non defensive firings, only to finish the presser and almost immediately fire two of winks closest and longest tenured assistants. 

[MightyGiants]

He will be gone and free to choose his destination at some point very soon.


If they were truly worried they would not have intentionally started this war with him. They knew he was leaving, as such they tried to orchestrate it by having a 8:30 am presser announcing 2 non defensive firings, only to finish the presser and almost immediately fire two of winks closest and longest tenured assistants.

How much freedom Wink will have is to be determined.  If the Giants fire him, then the Giants are on the hook for paying Wink $3 million minus any offsets (what another team would pay him).  If Wink quits, he won't get the $3 million, and the Giants would still have to give permission to allow Wink to work for another NFL team. 

Odds are the Giants agent, and the Giants are negotiating some sort of middle ground to resolve this issue (assuming they have decided the bridge is beyond burnt).   So it's possible the negotiated settlement could include a clause that forbids him working for certain teams this year.

On a related note, if the Giants can prove that Wink was in breach of his contract (rather than a performance firing) the Giants could terminate Wink (he is still free to go wherever) but the Giants wouldn't be on the hook for the $3 million.

[Doc16LT56]

Not sure if this tweet was already shared on the board. I think this stat tells us a lot.

https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1744440201630421193?t=Hr9tkXg-8JBwPXFSM1Uu-Q&s=19

[MightyGiants]

I thought of one more piece of the puzzle.   Patrick Graham stuck around after Joe Judge was fired.   Then Daboll was hired, and Daboll said he would like to keep Graham, but Graham opted to leave the Giants and work the same job with the Raiders.  Graham and Daboll had worked together previously

[Stringer Bell]

Not sure if this tweet was already shared on the board. I think this stat tells us a lot.

https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1744440201630421193?t=Hr9tkXg-8JBwPXFSM1Uu-Q&s=19

Thanks for sharing, Doc. This tweet, and babywhales' post, are perfect examples of why "nobody was talking about Wilkins so this had to be vindictive" is a ridiculous stretch.

The performance and numbers speak for themselves.

[MightyGiants]

Not sure if this tweet was already shared on the board. I think this stat tells us a lot.

https://twitter.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1744440201630421193?t=Hr9tkXg-8JBwPXFSM1Uu-Q&s=19

There are other stats like 11.5.  That was the number of sacks that KT had that had him tied for 12th most in the league.


When you are looking at pressure win rate, you need to factor in a few things:

How often did the defense get to play with a big lead?  Big leads allow defenses to pin their ears back and focus on just rushing the passer, as opposed to also having to worry about the run.

How often did they get to rush in situations where the QB was forced to hold on the the ball longer (like 3rd and long?  This can be impacted by non-rush issues like stopping the run and minimizing YAC.

[Doc16LT56]

I haven't read the previous pages in this thread yet, so not clear on the context of previous discussions. I would just add what I've said in other threads, I don't think any of the defensive coaches have distinguished themselves in a way that they should feel any sort of entitlement or that the Giants have to keep them. They've been part of the problem in my opinion.