What Mike Lombardi is hearing and seeing with QB prospects

[MightyGiants]

Go to the 25:15 mark for the start of the discussion.  There is a heavy focus on JJ, but he covers other QBs.  Lombardi also discusses the Giants QB situation.

[Bob In PA]

Maybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how!  lol  NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.

As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.

None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).

Bob

[MightyGiants]

Maybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how!  lol  NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.

As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.

None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).

Bob

Bob,


I  agree about your point about the O-line Jones worked with.   Hard to "calmly step up into the pocket" when there are already two defenders there waiting to great you.

With Mike, I find his commentary is a combination of what he hears and what he sees from his own study.  I think the Drake May comments were heard.   In another segment, Mike talks about how teams really come away liking JJ.   That was obviously heard and it's what he was referring to when he talked about the intangibles.

[Bob In PA]

Bob,


I  agree about your point about the O-line Jones worked with.   Hard to "calmly step up into the pocket" when there are already two defenders there waiting to great you.

With Mike, I find his commentary is a combination of what he hears and what he sees from his own study.  I think the Drake May comments were heard.   In another segment, Mike talks about how teams really come away liking JJ.   That was obviously heard and it's what he was referring to when he talked about the intangibles.

Rich: I forgot about his mention of May... you're right. Bob

[Hadron]

Maybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how!  lol  NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.

As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.

None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).

Bob

There were quite a bit of times last season where Jones had an opportunity to hold the balls for a few ticks longer before taking a downfield shot. Being battered over the years likely impacted that ability.

I agree with Lombardi: the team needs to admit that Jones is not the solution.

[DaveBrown74]

Mike makes a good point about QBs' need to process quickly but "play slow." Meaning, be able to get through the reads, progressions, and decision-making process quickly, but not rush the play. His point about how Jones is weak in this whole area is a good one.

Whoever our next long term QB is, whether we get him in this draft or at another time, I think way more stock needs to be put into processing speed/capacity and decision-making than it was this last time. I think in the case of Jones, Gettleman, Mara, and their scouts all decided they liked Jones because of his look, build, athleticism, book smarts, decent arm, work ethic, and Eli-esque personality. All of that may check out well with him, but they didn't do enough on actual QB talent, because the above cerebral aspects I outlined are a big part of overall "talent."

[Jolly Blue Giant]

I'm still in the camp that drafting a QB is a crap shoot

JJ might become a star, he might be the second coming of Mac Jones...who the hell knows? No one!

I do believe the Giants are going to give DJ the benefit of the doubt, one more year. He either proves some people wrong, or some people right. I also believe Schoen is just doing his due diligence by strongly evaluating every single top prospect, and that 90% of it could very well be a smoke screen. Deep down, I think he wants a game-changing receiver to throw in the mix for DJ's last hurrah (if it comes to that). There will be no bickering about DJ if he finally has a protective line and good receivers

[Bob In PA]

There were quite a bit of times last season where Jones had an opportunity to hold the balls for a few ticks longer before taking a downfield shot. Being battered over the years likely impacted that ability.

I agree with Lombardi: the team needs to admit that Jones is not the solution.

Hadron: I agree with that, but check out a few plays (or series) BEFORE those plays and you'll see that not holding the ball was immediately preceded by OL breakdowns, sacks, necessity to scramble, or a WR running the wrong route.

It's almost impossible to trust your OL on the sixth play when plays one through five have been disastrous. IMO there's no confidence in the OL on the plays you're referring to because of what the OL previously did in the same game or series.

Defenses like the Eagles know this, so they go all-out early in games cause Jones to not trust his OL. IMO not even the best QB's in the league could avoid losing confidence in the Giants' OL, so (although I don't think he's among the best in the league) I also don't believe Jones' problems are PRIMARILY his fault, and I know for a fact that the fault is shared.

IMO the far greater share is due to the OL's usually-consistent failure (even in games where Giants win) to do their jobs, and I believe Schoen/Daboll agree. 

Bob

[londonblue]

When Carl Banks opined a week or so ago that Jones might be seeing ghosts in the pocket and be understandably worried for his health I took a couple of things from that:

1. Banks works for the team so if he is thinking this it is not a big leap to assume it is something being discussed internally at different levels within the Giants organisation up to and including HC and GM

2. If he is right, it probably cannot be fixed by fixing the OL. IF Jones has serious concerns about his neck he will know it only takes one unlucky play and will have jitters

It feels close to 100% certain that this year or next we will be drafting or trading or signing in FA somehow a new QB1. When, not if, IMO.

[Bob In PA]

When Carl Banks opined a week or so ago that Jones might be seeing ghosts in the pocket and be understandably worried for his health I took a couple of things from that:

1. Banks works for the team so if he is thinking this it is not a big leap to assume it is something being discussed internally at different levels within the Giants organisation up to and including HC and GM

2. If he is right, it probably cannot be fixed by fixing the OL. IF Jones has serious concerns about his neck he will know it only takes one unlucky play and will have jitters

It feels close to 100% certain that this year or next we will be drafting or trading or signing in FA somehow a new QB1. When, not if, IMO.

london: IMO yours is the best (and ONLY) argument for giving up on Jones and for not blaming the OL. But I don't know if the coaches can get inside Jones' head to see WHETHER he's seeing ghosts, so I rule out number 1 in your post. But the second reason given COULD be the problem (assuming there is a problem) and that alone would be enough reason for the team to "start over" at QB. The Giants' selections in this year's draft will likely (and conclusively) settle this issue for once and for all. Bob

[londonblue]

Bob, they don't have to be able to get inside Jones' head on the 'ghosts' they just have to perceive a problem. I have said several times on here down the years that perception becomes reality in decision making (unless you lean heavily into data and decision science to offset bias). If decision makers think Jones is (or even worry he might be) "seeing ghosts" then that will shape their behaviour.

[Bob In PA]

Bob, they don't have to be able to get inside Jones' head on the 'ghosts' they just have to perceive a problem. I have said several times on here down the years that perception becomes reality in decision making (unless you lean heavily into data and decision science to offset bias). If decision makers think Jones is (or even worry he might be) "seeing ghosts" then that will shape their behaviour.

london: Whether the team perceives Jones to be "seeing ghosts" may have already been decided (in the negative). I don't believe everything Schoen says, but he is absolutely insistent than Jones is their starting QB next year (absent a health issue). He COULD be lying (most likely reason would be draft-related deception) but I don't believe it matters at Pick Six as much as if the Giants had Pick Two, Three or Four. Teams above them likely won't be affected, and there just aren't more than three QB's this year whom the consensus views as high first-round QB's.  Bob

[kingm56]

Gentlemen,

In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries.  In fact, his lack of processing speed  is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter.  If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate.  All the signs were and continue to be present.  Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level.  He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer.  If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows?  More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes.  There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'

I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years.  In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played.  At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm... 

[Bob In PA]

Gentlemen,

In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries.  In fact, his lack of processing speed  is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter.  If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate.  All the signs were and continue to be present.  Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level.  He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer.  If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows?  More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes.  There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'

I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years.  In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played.  At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm... 

king: Nice post. I hope you're wrong, but I know better.

Obviously, there's something about the kid they really like (probably effort and dedication) so they're going to stick with him until they're out of excuses. 

I've been a consistent defender of Jones throughout the years because the team failed to assemble a supporting cast immediately after drafting him (IMO, it should have been done before drafting a QB). That matter cannot be denied, notwithstanding all of your excellent points.

We have to assume the team was aware of most of all of those points, so the fact that they drafted him anyway is almost inexplicable... or they believed the problem(s) was(were) fixable.  It sure looks like they were wrong, but he'll probably have this year as a last gasp.

To date, IMO it's unclear whether they'll draft a high 1st-round QB, but the waters are murky. What they actually do in that regard will tell the tale... so we'll have our answer in just a few weeks.

Bob

PS. I just don't like this group of QB's but if I had to pick one with the first pick it would be McCarthy. At least he knows what it's like to win games against college's best teams.

[kingm56]

king: Nice post. I hope you're wrong, but I know better.

Obviously, there's something about the kid they really like (probably effort and dedication) so they're going to stick with him until they're out of excuses. 

I've been a consistent defender of Jones throughout the years because the team failed to assemble a supporting cast immediately after drafting him (IMO, it should have been done before drafting a QB). That matter cannot be denied, notwithstanding all of your excellent points.

We have to assume the team was aware of most of all of those points, so the fact that they drafted him anyway is almost inexplicable... or they believed the problem(s) was(were) fixable.  It sure looks like they were wrong, but he'll probably have this year as a last gasp.

To date, IMO it's unclear whether they'll draft a high 1st-round QB, but the waters are murky. What they actually do in that regard will tell the tale... so we'll have our answer in just a few weeks.

Bob

PS. I just don't like this group of QB's but if I had to pick one with the first pick it would be McCarthy. At least he knows what it's like to win games against college's best teams.

I concur with you regarding this group of QBs, Bob.  I just don't know about the top 4 guys; I'd prefer we gamble with someone like Nix in the late 1st/early 2d and use our #1 on the Wr you covet.  Fix the line with 3/4; who knows, maybe we'll find our next David D....