I do not condemn any opinions on this topic. Although, in my head, I am taking notes on who says what, and when the situation is decided, there will be clear winners and losers in terms of reputation. As for my opinion on the topic, I really don't know how it will play out. From my research, I am not overly impressed with Lock to date (I wasn't that impressed when he was coming out, either). Still, there are many unknowns regarding DJ's recovery from the ACL and how quickly or if he can overcome being shell-shocked (as he was last season). With so much uncertainty, I will refrain from making a prediction.
https://x.com/RossTuckerNFL/status/1787854707156742416
Meh, I've seen enough of Lock to know he isn't a starter in the NFL. If he beats out Jones we'll be in line for a top three pick, which might not be a bad thing for the franchise.
It's a popular topic to get clicks and attention. I think the financial aspect of the injury guarantee in Jones's contract is going to (quietly) be a very important factor in how this shakes out.
Let's Drew the line here, okay? He's insurance in case DJ gets hurt (very possible). I think he has improved from his Denver days..but meh.
The next qb is out there..somewhere..we hope.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 07, 2024, 11:00:57 AMIt's a popular topic to get clicks and attention. I think the financial aspect of the injury guarantee in Jones's contract is going to (quietly) be a very important factor in how this shakes out.
If the Giants have an earlier exit from playoff contention, no doubt.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 11:18:14 AMIf the Giants have an earlier exit from playoff contention, no doubt.
I think if that happens a lot more will change than the QB. It will be tough for Daboll to keep things under control if they have another 2-8 start to a season.
So don't believe Schoen when he says Jones will be the QB this year?
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 07, 2024, 01:43:22 PMSo don't believe Schoen when he says Jones will be the QB this year?
Schoen: "Our expectation was Daniel would be our starter and we brought Drew Lock to be his backup and Tommy is a backup, so that's where we are and that's how we'll move forward this season. Daniel is still under contract for three more years. As it sits today, that's where we are."
Daboll: "My expectation is that Wink and Kafka will both be back. ... There are still conversations to be had."
It's clear that Daboll / Schoen have a much higher opinion of DJ's abilities than the majority of the fan base. So it's not likely that Lock will be a legit threat to win the job early.
But, there are several reasons why it could - or maybe even should - happen over time.
1. DJ should have a short leash if he continues to "see ghosts," is unwilling to take shots down the field, takes unnecessary sacks, turns the ball over too much, etc.
2. DJ should have a short leash if he shows that he's not recovered from his ACL or if he plays scared due to his neck injury.
3. DJ should have a short leash due to the injury provisions in his contract.
#1 is the least likely, for the reasons above re: Daboll / Schoen's opinion. #3 is probably next least likely, as the Giants have typically avoided morally questionable practices relative to their players. So it leaves #2. I could see them pulling him in favor of Lock if he just doesn't look healthy. Let's pray that it doesn't happen due to another injury.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on May 07, 2024, 02:12:30 PMIt's clear that Daboll / Schoen have a much higher opinion of DJ's abilities than the majority of the fan base. So it's not likely that Lock will be a legit threat to win the job early.
I'm curious how you can say this with authority when we have numerous instances of Daboll showing and voicing frustration with Jones (sideline and post-game comments, respectively), Schoen built an out into Jones's contract after 2 years, and Schoen literally just tried to trade up for Maye? I'd even somewhat agree with your second statement, but it's difficult for me to get on board with your conclusions given that I think the inputs are at odds with what has transpired over last season and this past draft cycle.
If they had said something different, you wouldn't have started this thread- and don't they know it. :nanner:
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on May 07, 2024, 02:17:25 PMIf they had said something different, you wouldn't have started this thread- and don't they know it. :nanner:
Cheers!
In all fairness to Emory Hunt, he has been down on Daniel Jones since he was drafted. So his latest comments are, at the very least, consistent.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 02:21:45 PMIn all fairness to Emory Hunt, he has been down on Daniel Jones since he was drafted. So his latest comments are, at the very least, consistent.
So what? He's accomplished his task and so have you. What does fairness have to do with it? You mean he's not one who tries to read fan's fickle minds and then not go with the flow?
Cheers!
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 07, 2024, 02:16:58 PMI'm curious how you can say this with authority when we have numerous instances of Daboll showing and voicing frustration with Jones (sideline and post-game comments, respectively), Schoen built an out into Jones's contract after 2 years, and Schoen literally just tried to trade up for Maye? I'd even somewhat agree with your second statement, but it's difficult for me to get on board with your conclusions given that I think the inputs are at odds with what has transpired over last season and this past draft cycle.
That's fair. But they gave him a contact extension. Yes, there's an out to give them flexibility, but they would not have signed him if they didn't think they could win with him. And signing a guy who has started 5 games in the last 3 seasons doesn't change things, IMO.
And yes, the rumors of trading up for Maye are telling. But what does it really say? That they really liked Maye? Yes. But not necessarily that they don't like DJ. Had that been the case, then they would have drafted JJ at 6 or tried to trade down for him, Penix or Nix if they were really low on DJ. I don't think we can call really liking a guy (Maye) an indictment of DJ when they didn't feel the need to draft any of the other 3 first round QBs available.
And I don't consider Daboll bitching a sign of anything. That's his m.o. LOL
Quote from: Stringer Bell on May 07, 2024, 02:36:07 PMThat's fair. But they gave him a contact extension. Yes, there's an out to give them flexibility, but they would not have signed him if they didn't think they could win with him. And signing a guy who has started 5 games in the last 3 seasons doesn't change things, IMO.
And yes, the rumors of trading up for Maye are telling. But what does it really say? That they really liked Maye? Yes. But not necessarily that they don't like DJ. Had that been the case, then they would have drafted JJ at 6 or tried to trade down for him, Penix or Nix if they were really low on DJ. I don't think we can call really liking a guy (Maye) an indictment of DJ when they didn't feel the need to draft any of the other 3 first round QBs available.
And I don't consider Daboll bitching a sign of anything. That's his m.o. LOL
Fair enough. I just think there's plenty of smoke to the fire that Schoen and Co. aren't all-that-high on DJ. I think they were hoping he had a 2023 campaign that got them there. But that obviously didn't happen. And if they were picking in the top-3 this past season, the heir apparent would already be on the roster. Based on that, I can't see the rest of their draft decision-making as an endorsement of DJ, but a criticism of the rest of the roster and the desperate need to find difference-makers for the future QB. I do agree though that I don't see Lock as much competition (though I've not looked very closely at the subject), but rather a backup with starting experience.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on May 07, 2024, 02:36:07 PMAnd yes, the rumors of trading up for Maye are telling. But what does it really say? That they really liked Maye? Yes. But not necessarily that they don't like DJ. Had that been the case, then they would have drafted JJ at 6 or tried to trade down for him, Penix or Nix if they were really low on DJ. I don't think we can call really liking a guy (Maye) an indictment of DJ when they didn't feel the need to draft any of the other 3 first round QBs available.
:-?? :-?? :-??
If they made a move for Maye, that pretty much says they'd rather have him than DJ. QB is not a multiple player position like WR.
They obviously didn't like JJ at and their actions showed that.
There was an obvious pecking order with the first round QBs and Jones, as far as Schoen/Daboll were concerned.
They were higher on Maye than Jones. They were higher on Jones than McCarthy/Penix/Nix.
Pretty simple.
I am shocked :o Commentators are throwing barbs at DJ??? Say it ain't true! :what:
(that's only been going on since the second he was drafted)
I think after seeing TT clearly outperform Jones last year, that is what spurs this discussion. I think because of what they are paying him, Jones is the QB unless hurt or a total meltdown.
I don't see it happening myself. The only way Jones doesn't start week one is if he's not medically ready. And I think if they say that, it will be legitimate. Meaning I don't see Lock being able to beat out a healthy Jones for the job in camp, even if he genuinely plays better than Jones in camp.
Could a healthy Jones be pulled during the season due to poor play or the offense being dysfunctional overall? Yes, that could happen. I'm not predicting it will or won't, but I do think that's possible. I don't think it's possible that Lock starts over a healthy Jones in week one.
Jones 6 Games
Att 160
Cmpl% 68
Yards 909
Tds 2
Int 6
Yards per attempt 5.7
Yards per catch 8.4
10+ yards 33
20+ yards 9
30+ yards 1
Lock 2 Games
Att 76
Cmpl % 63.4
Yards 543
Tds 3
INT 3
Yards per attempt 7.1
Yards per catch 11.3
10+ yards 19
20+ yards 10
30+ yards 3
If Lock plays in 6 instead of 2 he'd have 706 more yards, and 7 more Tds. He would have doubled Jones 10+ yard catches, tripled his 20+ yard catches and have 8 more 30+ yard catches.
One throws down field the other does not.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 06:07:22 PMJones 6 Games
Att 160
Cmpl% 68
Yards 909
Tds 2
Int 6
Yards per attempt 5.7
Yards per catch 8.4
10+ yards 33
20+ yards 9
30+ yards 1
Lock 2 Games
Att 76
Cmpl % 63.4
Yards 543
Tds 3
INT 3
Yards per attempt 7.1
Yards per catch 11.3
10+ yards 19
20+ yards 10
30+ yards 3
If Lock plays in 6 instead of 2 he'd have 706 more yards, and 7 more Tds. He would have doubled Jones 10+ yard catches, tripled his 20+ yard catches and have 8 more 30+ yard catches.
One throws down field the other does not.
I am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?
Let's see what Daboll does with Lock. I don't know if he's ever had a good shot or good coaching at the NFL level before.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 07:20:07 PMI am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?
Is there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you?
I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.
Daniel Jones, if healthy, and given his major share of the cap, will be the starter, not Drew Lock as was also never the intention and commitment re Taylor/ DeVito, last season.
Second guess, wear out your fingers crunching numbers, redo the Draft if you must, or whatever it takes for you to deny current reality instead of rooting and supporting all concerned until actual events bring forth a different reality, one not fueled by petty bias.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you?
I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.
For what it's worth, the Giants gave up 20 more sacks than the 31st place team. It could be argued that there was a giant chasm between the Giants OL and the 28th ranked line.
Quote from: T200 on May 07, 2024, 03:46:09 PMIf they made a move for Maye, that pretty much says they'd rather have him than DJ. QB is not a multiple player position like WR.
Tim: It is also possible making a move for Maye meant they'd rather have Maye than Lock (or Tommy). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 07, 2024, 09:49:54 PMTim: It is also possible making a move for Maye meant they'd rather have Maye than Lock (or Tommy). Bob
Bob,
The QB order is Jones, Lock, and DeVito. If they made a move for Maye, he'd have to be viewed as the eventual #1. If they liked Maye better than Jones, then, by extension, better than the other two as well.
I don't think they'd make a move to get to a top 3 pick to draft a backup.
Quote from: AYM on May 07, 2024, 09:30:54 PMFor what it's worth, the Giants gave up 20 more sacks than the 31st place team. It could be argued that there was a giant chasm between the Giants OL and the 28th ranked line.
You could very well be 100% right as I haven't looked at the overall pressures, rankings etc and just looked at the base ratings pff gave teams olines.
The problem though is that one qb is making pennies and one is making 8× the other qb a year. So yes does the 32nd to 28th line probably make some difference, absolutely but not enough that a guy making 8× is performing underneath a guy that shouldn't be starting.
So yes we can make all the excuses for Jones in the world as some of them are viable like the oline. Multiple backups though shouldn't look significantly better than your 40 million a year quarterback.
The fact that the media pundits, analyst, and everyone else are even discussing a backup as being a better option to a qb that is making 40 million a year is the problem.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 07, 2024, 07:20:07 PMI am curious: do you think the fact that Jones was working behind the worst pass protection in the league and throwing to the worst receivers (per PFF) might have skewed last year's numbers when you compare that to Lock having the 28th pass protection, but throwing the 7th best receiver group in the league?
Short answer is - no
For those who are advocating for Drew Lock, and making the case that he is a better QB than Daniel Jones, I would kindly ask you to look at both players entire career stats and not just a few games.
Both players were drafted in 2019.
Here are Drew Locks career stats.
59.7% 5283 Yards 28 TD 23 Int 79.3 RTG
Now here are Daniel Jones career stats, including rushing totals.
64.3% 14,426 Yards 75 TD 40 Int 85.2 RTG
As you can see it's not even close, Daniel Jones is the superior QB.
No one can force any of you to change your mind, but you may just want to reconsider your position.
Daniel Jones will be the day one starter, while Drew Lock will be sitting on the bench.
Take care.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you?
I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.
Sure and the difference between the worst WR group and the #7 WR group couldn't have anything to do with it. Plus, Lock was sacked 6 times in 2 games (3/game) while Jones was sacked 30 times in 5 games (6/game), just to put some context in that 28th to 32nd OL comparison.
Quote from: T200 on May 07, 2024, 10:04:59 PMBob,
The QB order is Jones, Lock, and DeVito. If they made a move for Maye, he'd have to be viewed as the eventual #1. If they liked Maye better than Jones, then, by extension, better than the other two as well.
I don't think they'd make a move to get to a top 3 pick to draft a backup.
Tim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.
Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it would still be Jones' job to lose (this year).
They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.
Bob
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 08, 2024, 01:57:41 AMSure and the difference between the worst WR group and the #7 WR group couldn't have anything to do with it. Plus, Lock was sacked 6 times in 2 games (3/game) while Jones was sacked 30 times in 5 games (6/game), just to put some context in that 28th to 32nd OL comparison.
So that would have been 18 sacks to 30 over a 6 game stretch. If you deduct the sacks that were his fault then they are about even.
The problem is that we are having this conversation at all with Jones making 40 million. I don't think Lock is really any better than Jones but the fact that it is even a conversation should be alarming.
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 08, 2024, 06:31:26 AMTim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.
Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it's still be Jones' job to lose (this year).
They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.
Bob
Bob,
I agree with you 1000%!
I don't think they were dissing Jones or disappointed in him. The Giants found themselves in a situation where they could potentially significantly upgrade the most important roster spot. You're right - it doesn't mean that he's trash.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 07, 2024, 07:41:01 PMIs there really that big of a difference in the 28th vs the 32nd to you?
I understand you were trying to make a point that somehow there was a huge difference in the 28th vs 32nd but there isn't, not enough to jump the stats that much. Even if you want to say they have better wrs which they do, Lock still attacked down the field while Jones did not.
Why did you ignore the 7th receiving targets versus the 32nd receiving targets? Do you think that receivers don't improve a QBs production? If not, why do you think WRs make so much money?
As to your point, 32nd is unlimited bad. We have clear stats that show the protection was significantly worse in terms of percent of pressure and time to pressure under Jones, and even with the improvements after Jones, they were still last. Even adding a healthy Andrew Thomas and Pugh off his coach didn't move the Giants off 32nd in pass protection.
Quote from: Trench on May 07, 2024, 11:26:06 PMShort answer is - no
So why do NFL teams spend so much money on receivers and offensive linemen if things like pass protection and receiving targets don't make a difference?
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 08:02:23 AMWhy did you ignore the 7th receiving targets versus the 32nd receiving targets? Do you think that receivers don't improve a QBs production? If not, why do you think WRs make so much money?
As to your point, 32nd is unlimited bad. We have clear stats that show the protection was significantly worse in terms of percent of pressure and time to pressure under Jones, and even with the improvements after Jones, they were still last. Even adding a healthy Andrew Thomas and Pugh off his coach didn't move the Giants off 32nd in pass protection.
So why do NFL teams spend so much money on receivers and offensive linemen if things like pass protection and receiving targets don't make a difference?
I didn't say they don't. A backup or any backup should not look significantly better than your 40 million dollar qb regardless of the circumstances and not one but several backup Qbs did this past season.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:13:17 AMI didn't say they don't. A backup or any backup should not look significantly better than your 40 million dollar qb regardless of the circumstances and not one but several backup Qbs did this past season.
The part in bold is where we see things differently. I don't do absolutes like "regardless of circumstances". I always factor in circumstances when I evaluate anything in football. Evaluating without considering circumstances is akin to taking a quote out of context, in my opinion.
Like it or not, our (not one but TWO) backup QBs played markedly better than the 40 million dollar man. People will say that is because we were missing Andrew Thomas. One person doesn't make a team. The argument would hold some weight if not for the fact TWO backups played much much better and even beat an inter division rival.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 08, 2024, 09:16:25 AMThe part in bold is where we see things differently. I don't do absolutes like "regardless of circumstances". I always factor in circumstances when I evaluate anything in football. Evaluating without considering circumstances is akin to taking a quote out of context, in my opinion.
@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL but we are supposed to give Jones a pass that he looks worse than most of the backups that started at some point last season in the same scenario.
Eli won a super bowl with a horrible offensive line but we can't even expect starter level play out of Jones? Yes the line was bad last year but that doesn't explain the 3 year arc of Jones refusing to throw down the field.
Qbs are supposed to make their team better and Jones has never done that even consistently. Pointing to a half here or a quarter here after 6 years just doesn't cut it.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:37:37 AM@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL
Quarterback support is a three-legged stool. Those legs consist of coaching/scheme, pass protection, and receiving targets. What exactly do we learn focusing exclusively on a single leg of the stool?
Quote from: Bob In PA on May 08, 2024, 06:31:26 AMTim: Right, but my point is... it's not conclusive that they are dissing Jones, or even dissatisfied with Jones.
Clearly, a high pick is expected to take over eventually, but it's still be Jones' job to lose (this year).
They paid him a lot of money. The only way they can attempt to get their "money's-worth" is to play him.
Bob
If by they you mean Schoen/Daboll/Mara, and not those here more invested in their petty egos than anything like a rooting interest, then I would agree, Bob, as it is altogether obvious that Daniel Jones will be the Giants starting QB this season and will remain so unless and until they are forced to make a change.
Can you imagine someone compiling a bunch of numbers to try to legitimize his hate while knowing full-well the compelling reasons why the Giants must hope to achieve a thoroughly objective assessment of Daniel Jones's cost/performance at this critical point in his future and theirs? Otherwise, you will have to enlighten me as to how the 3 pages of largely editorial posts thus far have done anything to alter that simple reality?
Cheers!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 07:49:08 AMSo that would have been 18 sacks to 30 over a 6 game stretch. If you deduct the sacks that were his fault then they are about even.
The problem is that we are having this conversation at all with Jones making 40 million. I don't think Lock is really any better than Jones but the fact that it is even a conversation should be alarming.
This discussion wouldn't be necessary if every post of yours about DJ didn't reflect your extreme bias. Like ignoring the difference in sacks rates. Blaming the sacks on DJ. Ignoring the difference between the 7th ranked WR group and bottom 5 receiver group.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 08, 2024, 09:37:37 AM@kingm56 just the other day posted multiple examples of Qbs playing at an elite level despite having one of the worst olines in the NFL but we are supposed to give Jones a pass that he looks worse than most of the backups that started at some point last season in the same scenario.
Eli won a super bowl with a horrible offensive line but we can't even expect starter level play out of Jones? Yes the line was bad last year but that doesn't explain the 3 year arc of Jones refusing to throw down the field.
Qbs are supposed to make their team better and Jones has never done that even consistently. Pointing to a half here or a quarter here after 6 years just doesn't cut it.
Here's another example of your extreme bias. Those other successful QBs with bad (but nowhere near as bad as the 2023 Giants) OLs had good receivers. Where's the QB who was successful with BOTH a bad OL AND bad receivers?
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 08, 2024, 11:57:47 AMThis discussion wouldn't be necessary if every post of yours about DJ didn't reflect your extreme bias. Like ignoring the difference in sacks rates. Blaming the sacks on DJ. Ignoring the difference between the 7th ranked WR group and bottom 5 receiver group.
This board has extreme bias going both ways for and against Jones. It is far from a one way ticket.
And that is ok. We are all just fans.
MacAdoo was itching to get Geno playing over Eli so anything can happen when you are not the regime that drafted said QB.
Apart from that, I think DJ would beat out Lock if they are on level playing ground.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on May 08, 2024, 12:50:43 PMMacAdoo was itching to get Geno playing over Eli so anything can happen when you are not the regime that drafted said QB.
Apart from that, I think DJ would beat out Lock if they are on level playing ground.
A lot of the outrage over the Giants breaking Eli's consecutive starting streak was due to the quarterback starting in Eli's place, Geno Smith. I wonder if how Geno has played with the Seahawks the past two seasons might have some people reconsidering the outrage over starting Geno Smith.
Ben McAdoo has his shortcomings, but he seems to have a pretty good handle on QB assessments, or at least as well as anyone, since it's a bit of an inexact science.
Quote from: Trench on May 08, 2024, 09:33:12 AMLike it or not, our (not one but TWO) backup QBs played markedly better than the 40 million dollar man. People will say that is because we were missing Andrew Thomas. One person doesn't make a team. The argument would hold some weight if not for the fact TWO backups played much much better and even beat an inter division rival.
Jones faced the early part of the schedule. Their losses were to: Cowboys, 49ers, Seattle, Dolphins and the Bills. Everyone knew the Giants weren't winning those games. Taylor and DeVito played the softer part of the schedule.
You also said "one person doesn't make a team". This statement is usually correct but it really depends on what position and who the replacement was. Thomas was out but his replacement Ezeudu was totally overmatched at left tackle. The early schedule also included the rookie OLs starting when they clearly weren't ready. As the season went on, Thomas returned and the rookie OLs matured. Bredeson , who was awful, was replaced by Pugh. Even Aikman and Buck stated that "Jones never had a chance". Which he didn't with only 1.7 seconds until the pocket totally collapsed.
Taylor and DeVito faced the softer part of the schedule and both played behind better offensive line play than Jones had to deal with.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Trench on May 08, 2024, 12:47:59 PMThis board has extreme bias going both ways for and against Jones. It is far from a one way ticket.
And that is ok. We are all just fans.
Sorry, while I understand why you might choose to suggest it, I don't agree. We are not all just fans when there are those among us who, rather than root for the team's success, feel compelled to make every relentless effort to demean someone like Daniel Jones despite being fully aware, as are we all, of the uncertainty regarding his future and with it both the challenge and consequences involved for all concerned. For such people here, it is both meanspirited and gratuitous and hardly reflects that of a true Giants fan.
Cheers!
Nah. They like Jones too much to not start him.
Do I think Lock will have to replace Jones at some point in the regular season? Yes.
Quote from: Painter on May 08, 2024, 01:43:12 PMSorry, while I understand why you might choose to suggest it, I don't agree. We are not all just fans when there are those among us who, rather than root for the team's success, feel compelled to make every relentless effort to demean someone like Daniel Jones despite being fully aware, as are we all, of the uncertainty regarding his future and with it both the challenge and consequences involved for all concerned. For such people here, it is both meanspirited and gratuitous and hardly reflects that of a true Giants fan.
Cheers!
My point being - I don't agree with you either. And that is ok.
However you should be a little nicer and not state as fact anyone not holding the same opinion of you doesn't "reflect that of a true Giants fan"....that is simply not true and is beneath what this board is all about. I would hope the moderators and the owner would agree.
Quote from: todge on May 08, 2024, 01:36:46 PMJones faced the early part of the schedule. Their losses were to: Cowboys, 49ers, Seattle, Dolphins and the Bills. Everyone knew the Giants weren't winning those games.
I respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.
Selective amnesia. Remember how great Jones and Waller looked in the five minutes they played in the pre season?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.
I think for many of us, the 1st game was a slap back to reality. It would have been one thing to lose, but to look completely outclassed was a different story.
Quote from: Trench on May 08, 2024, 12:47:59 PMThis board has extreme bias going both ways for and against Jones. It is far from a one way ticket.
And that is ok. We are all just fans.
Bias is fine. Except when it causes you to ignore facts, like the difference between a bad group of receivers and the 7th ranked group of receivers.
Quote from: todge on May 08, 2024, 01:36:46 PMJones faced the early part of the schedule. Their losses were to: Cowboys, 49ers, Seattle, Dolphins and the Bills. Everyone knew the Giants weren't winning those games. Taylor and DeVito played the softer part of the schedule.
You also said "one person doesn't make a team". This statement is usually correct but it really depends on what position and who the replacement was. Thomas was out but his replacement Ezeudu was totally overmatched at left tackle. The early schedule also included the rookie OLs starting when they clearly weren't ready. As the season went on, Thomas returned and the rookie OLs matured. Bredeson , who was awful, was replaced by Pugh. Even Aikman and Buck stated that "Jones never had a chance". Which he didn't with only 1.7 seconds until the pocket totally collapsed.
Taylor and DeVito faced the softer part of the schedule and both played behind better offensive line play than Jones had to deal with.
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Oh, but
@todge, context doesn't matter. /sarcasm/
Quote from: uconnjack8 on May 08, 2024, 06:25:39 PMI think for many of us, the 1st game was a slap back to reality. It would have been one thing to lose, but to look completely outclassed was a different story.
Yup. That game was a complete fiasco. One of the worst performances in franchise history if not the worst. We looked like an expansion team going up against the defending SB champs in that game. Even worse than that, actually. More like a college team playing a good NFL team.
We were only a 2 or 3 point underdog in that game too, and many people were backing the Giants.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.
Hi Dave,
This is not to challenge you in any way, but I do remember there were quite a few posters saying that the Giants could actually be a better team in 2023, but their record may actually be worse.
The reason why they were saying that was because the first six games of the season were absolutely brutal, and they were.
The schedule didn't begin to soften until week seven.
By the way this doesn't justify the poor record that they had, or the year, so please carry on.
Will the 2024 Giants, opening day, be "better" (NOTE: quantify "better" as you please) than the opening day 2023 Giants, and why?
Now, how does that play into answering the original question posed in this thread?
Discuss, please.
Peace!
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 08, 2024, 07:26:52 PMBias is fine. Except when it causes you to ignore facts, like the difference between a bad group of receivers and the 7th ranked group of receivers.
Then you do you, but it doesn't help when some here disrespect dissenting though and it happens frequently. I called it out earlier and nobody even responded. Speaks volumes. Facts have been stated on both sides but many just refuse to accept it. To each his own. Time will tell.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 05:33:06 PMI respectfully beg to differ. Last August there were people on this board arguing that the Giants were going to be "something special this year." I don't think any of those folks, or even a number who were less emphatic but still cautiously optimistic, would have told you last August that the Giant would go 0-5 in those five games.
I remember most fans were less than thrilled at the killer row the Giants opened with. I think most were hoping to come out of that stretch maybe 2-3 or, at best, 3-2 (this was considered a longshot).
Quote from: Trench on May 08, 2024, 03:00:06 PMMy point being - I don't agree with you either. And that is ok.
However you should be a little nicer and not state as fact anyone not holding the same opinion of you doesn't "reflect that of a true Giants fan"....that is simply not true and is beneath what this board is all about. I would hope the moderators and the owner would agree.
Either you're missing the point, or prefer less candor when it comes to taking exception to those who are so singly invested in the relentless bashing of Daniel Jones and ridiculing of the team for his presence.
By no means has been it a one-off or a "fool me once" failure-rooting exercise to which I am taking exception. If you don't like it, you can tsk, tsk about it all you like without having to whine to teacher. What do expect them to do, spank the armadillo?
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on May 09, 2024, 09:50:53 AMEither you're missing the point, or prefer less candor when it comes to taking exception to those who are so singly invested in the relentless bashing of Daniel Jones and ridiculing of the team for his presence.
By no means has been it a one-off or a "fool me once" failure-rooting exercise to which I am taking exception. If you don't like it, you can tsk, tsk about it all you like without having to whine to teacher. What do expect them to do, spank the armadillo?
Cheers!
Your post makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have no ill will towards whatever you believe or root for. I simply ask you for the same courtesy.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 07:47:31 PMYup. That game was a complete fiasco. One of the worst performances in franchise history if not the worst. We looked like an expansion team going up against the defending SB champs in that game. Even worse than that, actually. More like a college team playing a good NFL team.
We were only a 2 or 3 point underdog in that game too, and many people were backing the Giants.
We should have expected it after our joint practices and ps game with Detroit showed how the Lions were preparing far more intensely and purposefully than the Giants.
I listened to Pat Leonard's recent podcast. He is trying very hard to make this a story. He cited the comments by the Seahawks GM; he claims to have heard from his own inside sources, and he declared that Daniel Jeremiah is no longer just a draft guru but an NFL insider as well.
He never mentioned that Schoen and Lock himself denied the claims. As a sports journalist, Leonard was required to report all the relevant facts, not cherry-pick them to pursue his self-serving agenda.
I had sort of been warming up to Pat of late, but I am troubled by what I consider his less-than-honest reporting. I am not even saying Pat had to believe Schoen's or Lock's claims, but it was dishonest not to include them in is reporting.
Quote from: Trench on May 09, 2024, 12:17:56 PMYour post makes no sense to me whatsoever. I have no ill will towards whatever you believe or root for. I simply ask you for the same courtesy.
If you think I was discourteous to you, you have no idea what that means. As for ill-will, call it what you like, but you also seem confused as to whom, what and why I have been critical. Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps, that's just as well.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on May 09, 2024, 01:07:51 PMIf you think I was discourteous to you, you have no idea what that means. As for ill-will, call it what you like, but you also seem confused as to whom, what and why I have been critical. Otherwise, I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps, that's just as well.
Cheers!
I was pointing to when you threw out the label, gratuitous and mean spirited beneath what is a Giants fan
A) If the shoe fits... B) It had nothing to with you no matter how you may choose to read it. C) It still applies to those for whom it was and is directed who quite obviously aren't bothered in the least by it.
Is that clear enough?
Cheers!
The funny thing is, this is all absolute nonsense that has no bearing in reality whatsoever. It's stuff people are pulling out of their rear end and presenting as fact, which is basically everything you read and hear now.
Daniel Jones is the starter and Drew Lock is the backup. That's reality. I'd imagine every diehard Giants fan understands that.
Quote from: 4 Aces on May 10, 2024, 04:35:59 PMThe funny thing is, this is all absolute nonsense that has no bearing in reality whatsoever. It's stuff people are pulling out of their rear end and presenting as fact, which is basically everything you read and hear now.
Daniel Jones is the starter and Drew Lock is the backup. That's reality. I'd imagine every diehard Giants fan understands that.
This is worth repeating.
I think the more intuguing conversation at least initially is if Lock can come in if needed and replicate what tyrod did last season if called upon. Tyrods explosive plays and deep ball work was top notch last season.
I get Tyrod was a walking injury but he isn't an easy person to replace with his knowledge of the offense plus what he brings off the field in a leadership capacity.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 10, 2024, 05:34:38 PMI think the more intuguing conversation at least initially is if Lock can come in if needed and replicate what tyrod did last season if called upon. Tyrods explosive plays and deep ball work was top notch last season.
I get Tyrod was a walking injury but he isn't an easy person to replace with his knowledge of the offense plus what he brings off the field in a leadership capacity.
Hopefully Lock understands this is a pivotal point in his career. A perfect opportunity to take a step back and blossom. If he screws this up he's done. If he can bide his time and be prepared, he can become relevant.
Quote from: Painter on May 10, 2024, 10:24:53 AMA) If the shoe fits... B) It had nothing to with you no matter how you may choose to read it. C) It still applies to those for whom it was and is directed who quite obviously aren't bothered in the least by it.
Is that clear enough?
Cheers!
Yeah whatever.
Cheers
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 08, 2024, 07:47:31 PMYup. That game was a complete fiasco. One of the worst performances in franchise history if not the worst. We looked like an expansion team going up against the defending SB champs in that game. Even worse than that, actually. More like a college team playing a good NFL team.
We were only a 2 or 3 point underdog in that game too, and many people were backing the Giants.
The crazy thing is, the very first drive, the team looked crisp. And then the wheels came off.
Quote from: AYM on May 11, 2024, 05:18:13 PMThe crazy thing is, the very first drive, the team looked crisp. And then the wheels came off.
This is a very good point and one which wasn't dissected enough. Was it the result of coaching adjustments?...it's a fascinating thing to analyze
From what I read of Lock and seen some video's of, I think his major roadblock is what's between the ears. Seems to me he has the physical tools to be a good QB. IMHO, I think he needs to work harder to absorb and understand/implement the playbook. Let's hope he has matured and will really apply himself to become a better QB. Because the odds are pretty good that he will play this season.
Tommy DeVito is the best Giants QB in my opinion
He has the right mindset and can make all the throws....also a good pocket presence
The other two will fail miserably I'm afraid before Tommy gets another shot
Meanwhile he's getting a lot of practice with the scout team
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 11, 2024, 07:28:14 PMTommy DeVito is the best Giants QB in my opinion
He has the right mindset and can make all the throws....also a good pocket presence
The other two will fail miserably I'm afraid before Tommy gets another shot
Meanwhile he's getting a lot of practice with the scout team
DeVito has his work cut out for him this summer and fall. He's clearly not making the 53 short of at least one of Jones/Lock being medically unable to play, and it's unclear if he'll even be on the practice squad now after this pickup of this ex Pats' QB. It's possible one of either Tommy or the Pats guy could get claimed after not making the 53, but I think that's pretty unlikely. One of them will probably end up getting his walking papers.
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 11, 2024, 07:28:14 PMTommy DeVito is the best Giants QB in my opinion
He has the right mindset and can make all the throws....also a good pocket presence
The other two will fail miserably I'm afraid before Tommy gets another shot
Meanwhile he's getting a lot of practice with the scout team
Most NFl UDFAs only get one shot to make an impression and Devito had 5 games to show everyone what he had. Daboll then kindly showed him to the bench.
As a udfa you want your team to not be able to bench you because you are playing at an elite level. That was not the case with Devito though and that's why he finished the season on the sidelines.
He needed to show he was a significant upgrade to what we had starting and he couldn't do that period.
This one goes so far as to list Lock as one of a handful of breakout QBs
DREW LOCK, QB, NEW YORK GIANTS
It's far from assured that Drew Lock will be the starting quarterback in New York this season, just like O'Connell. However, it sure seems like the New York Giants will give him every opportunity to win the job.
Lock signed a one-year deal with the Giants for less than $5 million guaranteed. That is in line with what most NFL backups make, but it was an interesting signing by New York because Daniel Jones is recovering from a torn ACL and a neck injury. Before he tore his ACL, Jones struggled mightily during the 2023 season and took a big step backward. Going into Year 2 of his new deal, it's not a "lock" that he will open the year as the Giants' starting quarterback.
You can make a strong case that Lock is the better fit in Brian Daboll's offense, especially after the selection of WR Malik Nabers this year. Lock performed well last season for the Seattle Seahawks when called upon to start, completing nearly 69 percent of his passes for 7.45 yards per attempt. He led a winning drive against the Eagles on Monday Night Football and threw several gorgeous passes to keep Seattle alive in that contest.
Lock is only 27 and seems like a much more mature player than he was in Denver. With Jones likely to miss all OTAs, mini-camp and potentially training camp, Lock will have plenty of chances to play with the first team.
Even average quarterback play would make a difference for the Giants, and Lock could give them that this season. Seeing him play like the 2023 version of Gardner Minshew or 2022 Geno Smith wouldn't be a shock. He is a very talented quarterback with athleticism, and he lands in an offense that finally has the right weapons.
https://www.the33rdteam.com/2024-nfl-predictions-who-will-be-this-years-breakout-quarterbacks/
I really can't see any realistic scenario where lock beats out a healthy Jones for week 1.
A healthy Daniel Jones is a big if. He may be shell-shocked already and be a liability regardless. Drew Lock, yes, has the opportunity to impress first. He's kind of a hold-the-fort guy, perhaps passable.
But DJ will get to start if he looks okay in camp. but he has to produce wins asap or will the Giants let him struggle, then get stuck with an injury settlement? Short leash is logical, Also, Lock might be able to exploit
Daboll's offense downfield more effectively.
I like DJ and want him to succeed. He'll get his chance first.
Stay tuned.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on May 14, 2024, 04:16:10 PMA healthy Daniel Jones is a big if. He may be shell-shocked already and be a liability regardless. Drew Lock, yes, has the opportunity to impress first. He's kind of a hold-the-fort guy, perhaps passable.
But DJ will get to start if he looks okay in camp. but he has to produce wins asap or will the Giants let him struggle, then get stuck with an injury settlement? Short leash is logical, Also, Lock might be able to exploit
Daboll's offense downfield more effectively.
I like DJ and want him to succeed. He'll get his chance first.
Stay tuned.
I agree with you and I also like him and am hoping he can find success this year.