Big Blue Huddle

They have the lead at the half which is good although it's disappointing that they couldn't punch it in with Jacobs. Eli is getting protection and playing well although he's having a hard time finding guys open inside the redzone. But the Steelers are very good at dropping guys into coverage in a short field. I'm just glad that TP didn't make that pick.

I like the hard hitting by the GMen; that call against Phillips was crap.

The Giants have controlled TOP which may slow down the Steeler D and open a big play or two, later. In any case, after the inauspicious start, it hasn't been such a bad first half.

Cheers!

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For those who would like to discuss the game without turning it into their own personal bashing thread.

1. ONE TEQUILA, TWO TEQUILA, THREE TEQUILA, FLOOR.....

2. ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION.

3. IF MAN EVOLVED FROM MONKEYS AND APES, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?

4. THE MAIN REASON THAT SANTA IS SO JOLLY IS BECAUSE HE KNOWS WHERE ALL THE BAD GIRLS LIVE.

5. I WENT TO A BOOKSTORE AND ASKED THE SALESWOMAN, 'WHERE'S THE SELF-HELP SECTION?' SHE SAID IF SHE TOLD ME, IT WOULD DEFEAT THE PURPOSE.

6. WHAT IF THERE WERE NO HYPOTHETICAL QUESTIONS?

7. IF A DEAF PERSON SIGNS SWEAR WORDS, DOES HIS MOTHER WASH HIS HANDS WITH SOAP?

8. IF SOMEONE WITH MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES THREATENS TO KILL HIMSELF, IS IT CONSIDERED A HOSTAGE SITUATION?

9. IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM?

10. WHERE DO FOREST RANGERS GO TO 'GET AWAY FROM IT ALL?'

11. WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU SEE AN ENDANGERED ANIMAL EATING AN ENDANGERED PLANT?

12. IF A PARSLEY FARMER IS SUED, CAN THEY GARNISH HIS WAGES?

13. WOULD A FLY WITHOUT WINGS BE CALLED A WALK?

14. WHY DO THEY LOCK GAS STATION BATHROOMS? ARE THEY AFRAID SOMEONE WILL CLEAN THEM?

15. If A TURTLE DOESN'T HAVE A SHELL, IS HE HOMELESS OR NAKED?

16. CAN VEGETARIANS EAT ANIMAL CRACKERS?

17. IF THE POLICE ARREST A MIME, DO THEY TELL HIM HE HAS THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT?

18. WHAT WAS THE BEST THING BEFORE SLICED BREAD?

19. ONE NICE THING ABOUT EGOTISTS: THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE.

20. HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A CIVIL WAR?

21. IF ONE SYNCHRONIZED SWIMMER DROWNS, DO THE REST DROWN TOO?

22. IF YOU ATE BOTH PASTA AND ANTIPASTO, WOULD YOU STILL BE HUNGRY?

23. IF YOU TRY TO FAIL, AND SUCCEED, WHICH HAVE YOU DONE?

24. WHOSE CRUEL IDEA WAS IT FOR THE WORD 'LISP' TO HAVE 'S' IN IT?

25. WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED 'HEMORRHOIDS' INSTEAD OF 'ASSTEROIDS'?

26. WHY IS IT CALLED TOURIST SEASON IF WE CAN'T SHOOT AT THEM?

27. WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Great summary, Brian. It's not easy to do even when reviewing game tape. Well done.

bigblueinclearblue, on the winning TD play, the Pats called an all-out blitz that left Hobbs in single coverage on Burress. Hobbs slipped when juked by a double move, which left Plax wide open to catch the corner fade.

Eli may have read the blitz and checked down, but I suspect that the Giants were going to throw the deep fade in any case. It would be a reasonable and relatively safe play call under the circumstances especially given Plax's height advantage and with Hobb's playing hurt. But once they spotted the single, it clinched the decision, I'd say. The Oline has to get credit for picking up the Pat's pressure sell out.

Cheers!

 I see what you mean,MG. I can't comprehend his identifying the outside backers as opposite to the sides by which they are identified. There is no doubt as to which is the strong side and which is the weak side in those illustrations. There is logical explanation for it.

Cheers!

bgf, in college football, offensive players are allowed to block downfield while the ball is in the air if the ball is caught behind the line of scrimmage. In the NFL, you are not allowed to block downfield while the ball is in the air regardless of where it is caught.

I think the ESPN writeup is a good one which covers the basics common to most NFL teams.

With more teams playing a spread offense, we see more middle screen which is similar to the bubble screen, but instead of being executed to one side of the field or another, the receiver continues his route to the middle of the field and then follows his linemen up the middle of the field..

Some teams are good at running screens and others are not. Obviously, personnel may be a factor in it. I can't recall a time when the Giants ran more screens, with more success than during the brief time when Kurt Warner and Tiki Barber were paired in the Giants backfield.  They continued to run them with Eli, but to a lesser extent, and after Tiki with even less frequency. But, whatever the personnel, the real key to success is having a commitment to it as an integral part of your offense. It takes a lot of practice for the players to be able to execute them well and with confidence, and for an OC to be comfortable incorporating them in his plan and in calling them.

Cheers!

You have gotten some good information from Ottoman and MG, jimmyz. I don't have much to add, but in regard to your specific question, Is it possible to get inside push in a 3-4 defense without blitzing inside backers?  , I would have to say that it would be more difficult.

Irrespective of whether the base alignment is a 3-4 or a 4-3, you normally will have four pass pass rushers. In the 4-3, they are the four defensive linemen. In the 3-4 defense, the three defensive linemen are usually joined by a linebacker, most often the OLB on the weak- or blind side. On passing downs, he often is up on the line of scrimmage outside the defensive end. (He's not considered to be blitzer unless another LB also rushes because a blitz by definition requires at least five rushers.)

It does sort of blur the distinction between the 3-4 and 4-3 because the responsibilities of the three remaining linebackers really aren't much different than they would be in a normal 4-3 set.  If you are trying to get pressure up the middle, then at least one of the inside LBs almost certainly would have to join the pass rush. If he does, there really is no particular reason why the usually pass rushing OLB wouldn't continue to do so. Thus, you would have a blitz.

The reason behind what I''ve just said is because the DEs and NT playing in a base 3-4 generally are the larger, run defending types, and as such are not usually ideal pass rushers. In a 3-4 alignment, the Linebackers are the principal pass rushers thus it is often more difficult to generate good  pressure with only four rushers unless at least one of the Dlinemen is an exceptionally versatile player.

Cheers!

Wow! That's a tremendous resource you have provided for us Xs & Os junkies, vette.  However much we may, or may not, be capable of fully understanding all the details, it does establish just how much more complex the game really is than we so often assume it to be.

I was especially pleased to see it mentioned at the very beginning that The strong side of the field is the side of the ball on the line that the offense has more players lined up with. The common answer is the side the TE lines up, but it

I think that may have been part of it, bgf. I know for a fact that when Alford clobbered Brady up the middle at the start of the Pats final futile series, he had just subbed in for a winded Fred Robbins.  And we do have to credit Brady and his receivers, Welker, Moss, and Faulk for being damn good at what they do. They practically have a patent on that sort of thing.

Cheers! 

You could not be more correct, bgf.  I am grateful to you for having expanded on that aspect which is a fundamental feature of the Giants defense, and which paid such dividends against Brady in SBXLII.

These numbers illustrate the Giants pressures on Brady's 53 pass drops:

3-man pressure: 3 (all in the 2h)

4-man pressure: 35 (11/1h; 24/2h)

5-man pressure: 14 (6/1h; 8/2h)

6-man pressure:  1  (in the 2h)

4 sacks came off 4-man pressure; 1 off 5-man. 11 of 18 other hits came off 4-man pressure.

It's pretty clear that the Giants were able to pressure Brady, especially through the first 3 Quarters, by disguising their 4- and 5-man pressures, and not having to sell out. It does seem, however, that it may not have been the best choice to go with 3 or 4 rushers and Dime defense with just under 8 minutes left in the game which resulted in the Pats 12 play drive for the go ahead TD. However, I'm not going to second-guess why. In any case, I think it makes my point, and yours in particular.

Cheers! 

When Tom Coughlin introduced Steve Spagnulo as the Giants new Defensive Coordinator, a year ago, he made particular mention of his familiarity with the Fire Zone philosophy. He didn't say Fire Zone blitz, even though he could expect it to be inferred. What he was referring to was more than scheme, it was a mindset which recognizes that pressure on the opposing Quarterback has become essential to successful pass defense, and with it to overall success on defense.

But what does Fire Zone mean in more specific and practical terms; how does it work? The first element of the Fire Zone is to rush more defensive players than the offense has blockers to account for them. It can involve both numbers and location. Almost always, it involves rushing more than four defensive players which means at least five whether playing a 4-3 or 3-4 front. And that constitutes a blitz.

However, that's not all which is involved. Its essence is to blitz unpredictably with linebackers, defensive backs and combinations of both while keeping the Secondary from being undermanned and exposed by dropping one or more Dlinemen into zone pass coverage.

Dropping linemen into zone pass coverage often mean zone coverage behind them, but not always. There may still be man-coverage, and even a double on the opponents best receiver. It does seem. however, that the Giants most often play a three deep zone behind their blitzes which they employ on average about 12-15 times a game.

Whatever shell is played behind the blitz, it is important that the rushers get at least enough pressure to hurry the QB, and that those who aren't rushing clog the passing lanes, and try to identify the hot receiver. 

So, we have blitz (rushing five or more players) and zone blitz ( Dlinemen dropping into coverage), where then does the term, Fire Zone come in? Although not precisely defined, it is considered to mean creating a fire zone or clear path for a blitzer to the QB by overloading one side of a blocking scheme. That may be accomplished not only by attacking with a second blitzer, but also by stunting and looping Dlineman so that they don't rush straight ahead from their original position but overload one side of the offensive protection.

While strictly speaking the term, Fire Zone means blitzing and a propensity to blitz- not all the time, but at almost any time, in almost any situation- certain of its fundamental elements have been employed by the Giants without actually blitzing. For example, it's not uncommon when the Giants are playing their Four Aces package to see them stunt or loop Dlineman while dropping one into coverage and adding a Linebacker to the rush often through a gap vacated by a Dlineman.  Only four rushers, but with a look that can be as confusing to the QB as if there were more. Any extra fraction of a second he takes to figure out that it's only four is to the defense's advantage.

I suppose we could sum it up by saying that the Fire Zone philosophy is to aggressively apply pass rush pressure on the opposing Quarterback by employing extra rushers from any and all angles at any time with the conviction that the more a quarterback is attacked, the more are the chances he is going to be hit, and the more he is hit, the more innacurate he'll become.

How effective were they in attacking?  How about a season with 53 sacks, 61 knockdowns, and 45 hurries. That doesn't include what they did in postseason including the Super Bowl when they sacked and hit Brady a combined 23 times. Philosophically sound it would seem.

Cheers!

Even the terms, Strong Safety, and Free Safety don't tell all of the story. The term, Strong Safety derives from the fact that he lines up on the strong side to support run defense, and may have man-coverage responsibility for the TE. The Free Safety has no man-coverage responsibilty and is thus "free" to roam.

Of course, in a Cover 2 Zone both safeties defend the deep areas (halves) of field.  In such case, they could just as well be referred to as strong and weak safeties or, as in the manner of CBs, just left and right safeties.

In a Cover 3 Zone, which divides and defends the deep area in thirds, it is not unusual for a Cornerback to be positioned to the outside third which is most likely to be challenged by the opponent's deep threat, or fastest WR on a 9 route Go.

And finally, when the Strong Safety is playing close to the LOS, perhaps in the box, on an expected running play, the Free Safety is likely to be playing in a single high safety position to protect against a deep throw off play action.

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

-Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)

[Cheers!

The terms, Cornerback and Safety are simply terms which defines the areas of responsibilty which those players have. It doesn't matter what you call them, the responsibilties are still the same. If you can put 4, 5, or more players in the Seconday on the field who can who defend the run and cover Tight Ends as well as Wide Receivers, you can label them on the roster any way you wish. There roles and responsibilities don't chance.

You've actually answered your own question when you mention Nickle and Dime. That as much as anything has been the response to the more pass oriented offense. So also have zone defenses.

If you can find a guy with the speed and coverage skills usually associated with a CB who you can play in high coverage like a FS, then great. But he'll still be called a Safety because he does have, among other things. a deep pass coverage responsibility.

We could call them all DBs, but they'd still have the same kinds of positioning on the field and roles in the game as they have now.   

Cheers! 

Once again a thread which has meandered far from its subject and intent. But no harm done, I suppose.

Cheers!

It's never entirely fair to compare one unit of a defense to another while ignoring the influence of the other seven or eight players such as in the case of the Giants and Saints four man LB corps, or pre-Cowher Steelers' 3 man.

However, while I think that it could be a toss up between those Giants and Steelers units, I can pick the Giants without any hint of embarassment. However, as much as I appreciate the talent of that Saints unit, I have to consider that they never quite got it done. Perhaps, it's unfair to them, but that's the way diddly poo crumbles, sometimes.

The problem inherent in all such comparisons is that in elevating one, it can't help but appear to slightly diminish the others. Of course, the purpose is to engender a bit of harmless controversy, not to trigger some long forgotten bonus clause in those player's contracts.

Cheers!