Who are those guys? Is this the same bunch that was on pace to set an NFL record for most sacks allowed?
Is this the same group that couldn't give Daniel Jones any time to throw more than 5 yards?
Did they, all of a sudden, figure out how to block and even open holes for our run game?
Really, what difference a QB who looks down the field and 'gulp' throws it there also?
These can't be the same maligned guys who were the laughingstock of the NFL/
Did Johnson remember how to coach all of a sudden?
Explain this to me, as I am completely befuddled. /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/
In the first three quarters they were horrible Lenn. If Tommy didn't navigate his way around the pressure he would have been sacked several times and Saquon was getting stuffed and had about two yards per carry until the packer Defense wore down and he had a couple of good runs.
No matter what the O-line has looked like in the past few games, don't be fooled, we still need to find 3 new starters.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 12, 2023, 05:55:23 PMIn the first three quarters they were horrible Lenn. If Tommy didn't navigate his way around the pressure he would have been sacked several times and Saquon was getting stuffed and had about two yards per carry until the packer Defense wore down and he had a couple of good runs.
I was being a bit sarcastic Ed, but this is the first game all year the OL didn't allow a sack.
Believe it or not, there are many bad offensive lines in the NFL. In fact, there are very few good ones. The QB has to deal with it. It's the current reality.
Quote from: LennG on December 12, 2023, 06:38:02 PMI was being a bit sarcastic Ed, but this is the first game all year the OL didn't allow a sack.
Tommy didn't allow a sack.
Hardly! Any improvement in their usual Division 2 pass blocking was due largely to Devito's faster decision-making, getting rid of the ball quicker and running when he couldn't. And don't let those couple of late game dashes by Barkley fool you as overall the run blocking was actually worse than it has been.
Cheers!
Jets offensive line or Giants? I know my choice and it's not even close
Quote from: LennG on December 12, 2023, 05:35:36 PMWho are those guys? Is this the same bunch that was on pace to set an NFL record for most sacks allowed?
Is this the same group that couldn't give Daniel Jones any time to throw more than 5 yards?
Did they, all of a sudden, figure out how to block and even open holes for our run game?
Really, what difference a QB who looks down the field and 'gulp' throws it there also?
These can't be the same maligned guys who were the laughingstock of the NFL/
Did Johnson remember how to coach all of a sudden?
Explain this to me, as I am completely befuddled. /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/
The O-line changed the moment Pugh was signed and inserted. He has brought the professionalism, leadership and stability many felt he would.
There was a particular run where Barkley ran right into a defender but the hole to the left was enormous last night, he just didn't see it. Pugh has likely had a major impact on JMS as well.
The bigger question is why did it take so long to recognize his need.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 12, 2023, 05:55:23 PMIn the first three quarters they were horrible Lenn. If Tommy didn't navigate his way around the pressure he would have been sacked several times and Saquon was getting stuffed and had about two yards per carry until the packer Defense wore down and he had a couple of good runs.
Ed: Just wanted to repeat in capital letters... IN THE FIRST THREE QUARTERS THEY WERE HORRIBLE. Bob
Thomas coming back helped a bunch along with Pugh.
Quote from: Painter on December 12, 2023, 07:17:42 PMHardly! Any improvement in their usual Division 2 pass blocking was due largely to Devito's faster decision-making, getting rid of the ball quicker and running when he couldn't. And don't let those couple of late game dashes by Barkley fool you as overall the run blocking was actually worse than it has been.
Cheers!
I also think by 4th quarter the Packers defense became more cautious of DeVito keeping the ball and that could have helped Barkley too.
I am worried about the volume of hits DeVito is taking on either a sack or a run. At least he has some more control when he takes off and is brought down ahead of the line of scrimmage instead of behind it. That alone probably added a ton of net yardage to the offense compared to the last couple of games. Maybe as the game slows down for him and gels more with WRs he'll get more passes off without taking a hit. Once defenses adjust to his scramble threat it's going to open opportunities elsewhere (e.g. more time in pocket, easier runs for the RB, openings in the secondary).
Curious that Daboll gave a game ball to the OL when they were leaky again in pass protection (saved by DeVito) and stoned in the run game for 3 quarters. They had some success on the edge with Wan"Dale..and the Pack got fooled by a DeVito run design. But Barkley went nowhere..twice on short yardage
They weren't horrendous..but still in need of 3 new starters and coach. 69 sacks on the year given up is mind boggling bad. Schmitz return and play helps..okay.
You guys facing Winston or Carr this week?
Quote from: Trench on December 12, 2023, 08:08:29 PMThe O-line changed the moment Pugh was signed and inserted. He has brought the professionalism, leadership and stability many felt he would.
There was a particular run where Barkley ran right into a defender but the hole to the left was enormous last night, he just didn't see it. Pugh has likely had a major impact on JMS as well.
The bigger question is why did it take so long to recognize his need.
How did you reach that conclusion, Trench? Pugh has been atrocious and is currently one of the NFL's worst Guards, having allowed 5 sacks and 4 penalties in just 504 snaps. His Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux-like 47 PFF rating is an accurate depiction of his efforts. Prior to MNF, the Giants actually gave up more sacks per game since inserting Pugh, including 8x, 5x, 9x, and 6x. They've also rushed under 100 yards in 3 of his 6 starts; last week they rushed for 200+ yards off the strength of Tommy's 86 rushing yards, which were necessary as byproduct of poor interior blocking (he was running for his life). The lines improvement is a mirage propagated by Tommy's performance. His ability to avoid sacks in the pocket is the impetus for a zero sack performance against GB and the perceived OL gains. In short, the Oline hasn't improved...the QB play has, which I believe is the geneses of this thread and the point Lenn was making.
Quote from: kingm56 on December 13, 2023, 06:45:50 AMHow did you reach that conclusion, Trench? Pugh has been atrocious and is currently one of the NFL's worst Guards, having allowed 5 sacks and 4 penalties in just 504 snaps. His Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux-like 47 PFF rating is an accurate depiction of his efforts. Prior to MNF, the Giants actually gave up more sacks per game since inserting Pugh, including 8x, 5x, 9x, and 6x. They've also rushed under 100 yards in 3 of his 6 starts; last week they rushed for 200+ yards of the strength of Tommy's 86 rushing yards, which were necessary as byproduct of poor interior blocking. The lines improvement is a mirage propagated by Tommy's performance. His ability to avoid sacks in the pocket is the impetus for a zero sack performance against GB and the perceived OL gains. In short, the Oline hasn't improved...the QB play has, which I believe is the geneses of this thread and the point Lenn was making.
=D> =D> =D>
This is supposed to be a progression of the offense lead by good consistent reads by the QB & receivers.
If they can minimize the OL substitution due to injuries moving forward, I believe we will see more positive Paisan progression moving forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I view Pugh as a stop-gap signing that was made when we were desperate just to get an experienced body in there as we were ravaged by injuries and terrible play. Personally I don't think he has been anything to write home about, and in some games he has looked bad to me, but perhaps his familiarity with the organization and the fact that he is a veteran and maybe seen as something of a leader attracted them to him. Either way I'll be very surprised if he's a day one starter on this line in 2024.
I have never bought the notion that our O line has suddenly transformed into something it was not, just by happenstance when they switched QBs. We had folks making this claim when Tyrod was brought in too. The line is the same line. Different QBs bring different skill-sets to the table. The idea that a terrible line becomes suddenly decent overnight, and that metamorphosis just happens to coincidentally happen when a QB change is made, just doesn't ring true to me whatsoever.
@MightyGiants what were the PFF team Oline grades for passing and for run blocking? And what were the grades by player? Thanks
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 13, 2023, 10:06:21 AM@MightyGiants what were the PFF team Oline grades for passing and for run blocking? And what were the grades by player? Thanks
(https://i.imgur.com/I1RJiKo.png)
I think Carl Banks is on point when it comes to the biggest improvement of the offensive line. It's important to consider (and I am unaware of stats to use) the difference between a failure of the O-line that leads to a free rusher and sacks/pressures that are a result of an engaged defender defeating their block. Free rushers are devastating to an offense (because of how quickly it happens), while pressure after defeating a block is more workable.
Early in the season, there were far too many free rushers. That was really disruptive. Now you are not seeing the mental errors from the line and things are more effective.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 13, 2023, 10:09:42 AM(https://i.imgur.com/I1RJiKo.png)
As I thought. Just Thomas with a very good grade and JMS with a decent grade. The rest were poor and gave up nine pressures combined. Tommy avoided a lot of sacks.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 13, 2023, 10:13:30 AMI think Carl Banks is on point when it comes to the biggest improvement of the offensive line. It's important to consider (and I am unaware of stats to use) the difference between a failure of the O-line that leads to a free rusher and sacks/pressures that are a result of an engaged defender defeating their block. Free rushers are devastating to an offense (because of how quickly it happens), while pressure after defeating a block is more workable.
Early in the season, there were far too many free rushers. That was really disruptive. Now you are not seeing the mental errors from the line and things are more effective.
One of the things JMS is good at is double teams and lateral movement off one block to another. Bellinger is disappointing but Saquon has become a pretty consistent blocker which was a fault early in his career.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 13, 2023, 10:15:52 AMAs I thought. Just Thomas with a very good grade and JMS with a decent grade. The rest were poor and gave up nine pressures combined. Tommy avoided a lot of sacks.
Ed: That was just for the one game, correct? Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 13, 2023, 10:13:30 AMI think Carl Banks is on point when it comes to the biggest improvement of the offensive line. It's important to consider (and I am unaware of stats to use) the difference between a failure of the O-line that leads to a free rusher and sacks/pressures that are a result of an engaged defender defeating their block. Free rushers are devastating to an offense (because of how quickly it happens), while pressure after defeating a block is more workable.
Early in the season, there were far too many free rushers. That was really disruptive. Now you are not seeing the mental errors from the line and things are more effective.
Rich: So true. If you count just the number of free rushers then the OL has improved over time.
Again, though, we come back to... compare the last five teams we played to the first five.
This is why I believe the Giants need another EDGE (especially). You've got have have at least three or four these days because passing is more important than ever, so, therefore, pass-defense/pass-rushing is more important than ever.
Bob
Brederson had a beautiful pulling block on the first O snap of the game and then I don't think they ever went back to it the rest of the game. They might have I just didn't notice it.
Quote from: Bob In PA on December 13, 2023, 10:28:10 AMEd: That was just for the one game, correct? Bob
Yes but it's indicative of what's been prevalent all season. There is Andrew Thomas and then the rest who struggle.
I don't remember this but was Pugh drafted to be a tackle or guard? I think tackle and I think its his best position.
It seems that its hard to pinpoint the improvement of the OL to 1 thing. The most important is the return of Thomas followed by the return of Schmidt. But, bringing in Pugh helped and it's important to remember (I think) that he came without the benefit of training camp which is a big deal
Quote from: nb587 on December 13, 2023, 10:40:03 AMI don't remember this but was Pugh drafted to be a tackle or guard? I think tackle and I think its his best position.
It seems that its hard to pinpoint the improvement of the OL to 1 thing. The most important is the return of Thomas followed by the return of Schmidt. But, bringing in Pugh helped and it's important to remember (I think) that he came without the benefit of training camp which is a big deal
Pugh was drafted to play RT. He gave up some sacks but was the most consistent since at that position. He had injury issues and I think it was Gettleman who gave up on him. He's had a solid if not spectacular career. His versatility and leadership have been his strengths.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 13, 2023, 11:02:03 AMPugh was drafted to play RT. He gave up some sacks but was the most consistent since at that position. He had injury issues and I think it was Gettleman who gave up on him. He's had a solid if not spectacular career. His versatility and leadership have been his strengths.
Ed: Wish I had your memory. Can you loan it to me for a few years or decades? lol
Quote from: kingm56 on December 13, 2023, 06:45:50 AMHow did you reach that conclusion, Trench? Pugh has been atrocious and is currently one of the NFL's worst Guards, having allowed 5 sacks and 4 penalties in just 504 snaps. His Will Hernandez and Shane Lemieux-like 47 PFF rating is an accurate depiction of his efforts. Prior to MNF, the Giants actually gave up more sacks per game since inserting Pugh, including 8x, 5x, 9x, and 6x. They've also rushed under 100 yards in 3 of his 6 starts; last week they rushed for 200+ yards off the strength of Tommy's 86 rushing yards, which were necessary as byproduct of poor interior blocking (he was running for his life). The lines improvement is a mirage propagated by Tommy's performance. His ability to avoid sacks in the pocket is the impetus for a zero sack performance against GB and the perceived OL gains. In short, the Oline hasn't improved...the QB play has, which I believe is the geneses of this thread and the point Lenn was making.
I don't view PFF as any sort of barometer whatsoever. All I know is when Pugh was inserted that line started playing better. Much much better. The QBs have had time to throw for the most part and we have seen our WR in fact are orettt decent and do get open. I believe oline play is so much more than grades and a lot of it is teamwork attitude and confidence. I believe Pugh has helped immensely on the intangible front.
Unless you feel Jones was the issue for the oline looking so poorly, there is no reason to believe the insertion of Pugh wasn't a game changer (also he is just now beginning to get his legs) as he didn't have a training camp
To answer the thread's question, from what, bad to less bad? As mentioned they need three new starters. I watch SB take a handoff, and almost immediately say to no one in particular give the effing guy a chance. There are times in pass protection where you would think several of the 5 are wearing tutus. The sun rises in the East, and bad teams have bad OL's, good teams have good OL's.
Quote from: Trench on December 13, 2023, 02:09:11 PMI don't view PFF as any sort of barometer whatsoever. All I know is when Pugh was inserted that line started playing better. Much much better. The QBs have had time to throw for the most part and we have seen our WR in fact are orettt decent and do get open. I believe oline play is so much more than grades and a lot of it is teamwork attitude and confidence. I believe Pugh has helped immensely on the intangible front.
Unless you feel Jones was the issue for the oline looking so poorly, there is no reason to believe the insertion of Pugh wasn't a game changer (also he is just now beginning to get his legs) as he didn't have a training camp
I can add that he's better than the guy(s) he replaced, or at least as "good."
To answer the question in the title, yes, there has been a metamorphosis in personnel, certainly, but I'm not if the same is true of the average talent level.
We started with an excellent LT, a question mark LG, a promising C, a question mark RG and an underperforming RT. Sounds about like today's gaggle.
Bob
I think the answer is no.
Here's Dan Duggan from The Athletic:
"DeVito was pressured on 48.1 percent of his 27 dropbacks on Monday, so it's not as if the offensive line was a brick wall. For perspective, Jones was pressured on 45.5 percent of his dropbacks this season."
https://theathletic.com/5133112/2023/12/13/new-york-giants-tommy-devito-brock-purdy/?source=user_shared_article
So bit much difference to be fair, and Jones played far more dangerous defences.
They did do a good job of sustaining blocks which did help Tommy maneuver and navigate through to make plays with his legs and arm. Even though they gave up pressure and they did have a few good pockets when he needed them.
I like that Daboll rewarded them with the game ball. Maybe some weight will be taken off their shoulders and a ray of sunshine peeks through their cloud. They needed the confidence.