Wink and the Giants bigger picture

[MightyGiants]

I have been following the Giants saga closely and have heard pretty much everything reported. 

I don't think Wink is an angel in all this:

Leaking the story to Glazer was wrong.

Cursing out his boss and storming out of the meeting shows a lack of character.


Now, I am going to talk about what I see as signs of a dysfunctional organization (one that has been that way for quite some time).

1)  Daboll had to fire his close friend Bobby Johnson.   I can't help but feel like part of what motivated Daboll (without consulting Wink) to fire not one but both (I don't see a reasonable explanation for both rather than one) seemed to me like, "Well, if I have to fire my friend, then I will fire yours".  BJ did a terrible job, there was not one pundit, reporter, or fan that suggested Wilkons was doing a poor job.

2) The Giants leaking the story that Wink and the Wilkons brother were forming their own "fiefdom" was no doubt leaked by NYG, but to me, it makes Daboll look small and petty.  So what if Wink likes to hang out with them?   Part of being a good manager is letting people operate in a way that they are most comfortable and produce their best results.

3) The Giants leaking that Daboll went into the defensive meeting to confront the coaches to see if anyone had a problem with him reeked (to me) of a manager indulging his emotions rather than solving a problem.  If Daboll wanted to fix the rift between him and Wink, he should have had a meeting (in the office or gone out and eaten and met) with Wink privately to try and iron out their differences.   A semi-public challenge was highly unlikely to resolve the situation.

4) Drama has become too commonplace in the NYG organization.  The Wink saga reminds me of the Joe Judge saga, where Marc Columbo got fired after cursing out Joe Judge and storming off.  While I put some of that into the failings of the person cursing out, a good manager will de-escalate the situation to stop it from getting to that point (more often than not, there are exceptions).   In the case of Daboll firing both brothers without even consulting Wink, it seemed designed to set Wink off.


5) The Giants have replaced their DC every two years since Betcher.  You had Betcher, then Graham, then Wink, and now who knows. That sort of lack of stability hurts an organization.

6) The NYG leak about Wink thinking he was ultimately only answerable to ownership again doesn't paint the Giants in a good light.  First of all, that is true of every single employee of NYG.  My first mentor taught me when it comes to who is one's first priority; he told me to look to who signed my paycheck.   That all said, one has to wonder if that comment, I wouldn't have leaked, is an indication that the owner is too involved in the day-to-day operations.

7) I wonder about the whole McKinney comment about coaches not listening to him.  I wonder if someone in the organization put him up to say that.   It was out of character for McKinney and it clearly upset Wink who spent a full 8 minutes with the press addressing the issue.

8)  I saw reports that one thing that upset Wink was being publicly yelled at and dressed down by Daboll.   He felt that maybe that flies with a younger coach, but Wink is an older, established coach who deserves better.   There was a time where I would say Wink's expectations were off, but these days I think Wink's expectation is reasonable.  We saw it with Joe Judge and now, to a lesser degree, with Daboll; the Patriot's way becomes archaic; it's past its sell-by date.   The Patriots way is going the way of the Vince Lombardi way.  Times change, and leaders need to change with it.

9)  I am a bit disturbed by the Giants losing employees to colleges.  The last two S and C coaches have quit their jobs with the Giants to go work for a college team.  That really hurt when Wellman left, as he did an excellent job.  I think it's addition by subtraction with Fitzgerald, but still, the NFL is supposed to be the top of the NFL food chain.  People are not supposed to be quitting your organization.  We saw a RB coach quit, Graham quit, and a few other coaches under Judge.   I haven't observed this with other teams (although, to be fair, I don't follow them as closely, so I could be wrong).  What is it about NYG that people don't want to stay?

10)  I thought the whole wee hours of the morning presser with Daboll saying he expects Wink to stay was also in very poor form and reflected poorly on the organization.

[Philosophers]

Reading this morning thatbWink and Wilkins had distanced themselves from Dabs and were almost creating a fiefdom within a fiefdom.  That alone would be a reason to fire them.  How much of that was because the offense was so bad?

[MightyGiants]

Reading this morning thatbWink and Wilkins had distanced themselves from Dabs and were almost creating a fiefdom within a fiefdom.  That alone would be a reason to fire them.  How much of that was because the offense was so bad?

Daboll's background is mostly on the offensive side of the ball.   As a head coach, he is going to oversee all 3 aspects of the team and clearly will discuss bigger picture aspects with Daboll (and T-Mac).  There have been zero reports that Wink refused to accept input from Daboll.  So the whole fiefdom complaint boils down to who Wink hung out with and worked closely with.

I never told a supervisor under me who they could and couldn't hang out with or work with.  As long as the supervisor did what I asked and communicated with me, that's all that is needed.

[FL GMAN]

Disagree with almost everything. There can only be one head coach and a career assistant who thinks he is above the head coach must go. Everyone on the team will see this and know who is in charge. Firing the brothers IMHO was Daboll saying you can stay but I'm in charge. All during the season Wink undermined Daboll and Daboll took it for the good of the team. Enough of this nonsense either get with the program or leave. I don't think he will be that tough to replace and I don't think he did that great a job. We shall see. BTW the Jags just fired their DC and he could be worth a look.

[MightyGiants]

Disagree with almost everything. There can only be one head coach and a career assistant who thinks he is above the head coach must go. Everyone on the team will see this and know who is in charge. Firing the brothers IMHO was Daboll saying you can stay but I'm in charge. All during the season Wink undermined Daboll and Daboll took it for the good of the team. Enough of this nonsense either get with the program or leave. I don't think he will be that tough to replace and I don't think he did that great a job. We shall see. BTW the Jags just fired their DC and he could be worth a look.

If you were a coordinator, would you take a job where the HC didn't allow you to have input on who the staff of position coaches you would be working with were?   A coordinator will only be as good as the position coaches he has under him (much like an HC is only as good as the coaches under him).   Imagine being forced to work with coaches the HC sticks you with (seemingly out of spite).

[FL GMAN]

Mighty I would absolutely give them input and choice to start. If I see that the person has an agenda and is looking to undermine me then my decisions would reflect that, I made a mistake and need to fix it. I think this happens  much more than you think it's just that Wink aired his gripes and a public rebuke was needed. The guy cursed him out what else do you need. He had no respect for Daboll and showed it.

[MightyGiants]

Mighty I would absolutely give them input and choice to start. If I see that the person has an agenda and is looking to undermine me then my decisions would reflect that, I made a mistake and need to fix it. I think this happens  much more than you think it's just that Wink aired his gripes and a public rebuke was needed. The guy cursed him out what else do you need. He had no respect for Daboll and showed it.

I can't disagree with what you said.  Although I am mindful that respect comes in two parts.  Respect that is automatically accorded to you by virtue of your position and the respect you earn.   From what I hear, I am not sure that Daboll conducted himself in a manner that one can say he reasonably earned any respect beyond the fact that he was the boss.

So yeah, you can reasonably point the finger at Wink (and things will eventually be resolved one way or the other), but moving forward, the other issues will be more important.

[Giant Obsession]

Because Daboll and Schoen chose not to take care of a problem (Wink) at midseason they have made the organization look dysfunctional.

They could have fired Wink for cause at midseason but chose to ride it out.  Then they are forced to start playing games (8:30 a.m. press conference to reveal firing 2 non related coaches but give the impression that Wink and Kafka would be back) and then firing 2 of Wink's assistants without his knowledge.  And thus the soap opera drama escalated.

Not handling a problem immediately has lead to this clown show act going on.

So both Wink and Daboll do not have clean hands in this.  End result is a terrible look for all involved and especially the New York Football Giants.

[coggs]

If you were a coordinator, would you take a job where the HC didn't allow you to have input on who the staff of position coaches you would be working with were?  A coordinator will only be as good as the position coaches he has under him (much like an HC is only as good as the coaches under him).  Imagine being forced to work with coaches the HC sticks you with (seemingly out of spite).

Are we reading Kafka is quitting because Bobby Johnson was fired?  I do not understand why the Wilkins were all that valuable?  The OLB were nothing special and neither was the defense as a whole.  "input" does not mean they are allowed to pick the position coaches on their own.

[MightyGiants]

Are we reading Kafka is quitting because Bobby Johnson was fired?  I do not understand why the Wilkins were all that valuable?  The OLB were nothing special and neither was the defense as a whole.  "input" does not mean they are allowed to pick the position coaches on their own.

What we don't know is if Kafka was consulted on the BJ firing (I would think he was; it's the proper way of doing things).  I can't imagine there was anyone within or outside the organization that would argue that BJ needed to go.

[coggs]

What we don't know is if Kafka was consulted on the BJ firing (I would think he was; it's the proper way of doing things).  I can't imagine there was anyone within or outside the organization that would argue that BJ needed to go.

Agreed.  But Daboll and Schoen may have felt one or both of the Wilkens needed to go and knew Martindale wouldn't agree with it.  I would say it is very unlikely they consulted Kafka beyond something like, "We are getting rid of Bobby at the end of the year..." as he was Daboll's guy.  Yes, Schoen and/or Mara may have told Daboll that Johnson needs to go at the end of the year.  The only surprise on that firing was that they actually waited until Monday morning to announce it instead of immediately after the game.

[kartanoman]

I can't disagree with what you said.  Although I am mindful that respect comes in two parts.  Respect that is automatically accorded to you by virtue of your position and the respect you earn.  From what I hear, I am not sure that Daboll conducted himself in a manner that one can say he reasonably earned any respect beyond the fact that he was the boss.

So yeah, you can reasonably point the finger at Wink (and things will eventually be resolved one way or the other), but moving forward, the other issues will be more important.

Good morning, Rich @MightyGiants . Thank you for putting together this thread with some very thought-provoking dialogue going on here.

If you were Joe Schoen, right now, and took time to consider everything that has happened in the last few days, what are you thinking and are you still joined at the hip with Brian Daboll? Why or why not (NOTE: not just for you, Rich, but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts)? If, after last season, the talk about building credibility in the New York Football Giants brand was strong, and now it is 180 degrees out of phase, as a young General Manager, I would be very concerned.

Peace!

[MightyGiants]

Good morning, Rich @MightyGiants . Thank you for putting together this thread with some very thought-provoking dialogue going on here.

If you were Joe Schoen, right now, and took time to consider everything that has happened in the last few days, what are you thinking and are you still joined at the hip with Brian Daboll? Why or why not (NOTE: not just for you, Rich, but I'd welcome everyone's thoughts)? If, after last season, the talk about building credibility in the New York Football Giants brand was strong, and now it is 180 degrees out of phase, as a young General Manager, I would be very concerned.

Peace!

Good Morning, Chris; that is an excellent question. There is still a lot to like about Daboll.  It seems to me that his biggest issue is the one that has plagued all the coaches from the Bill Belichick tree: they try to recreate the Patriot way.

So, I think I would have a heart-to-heart meeting with Daboll.  I would suggest to him he needs to follow the example of one of the Giants' most successful head coaches, Tom Coughlin.  Brian needs to learn how to polish off the rough edges and learn to work better with his coaching staff.  It's sort of ironic.  While we are hearing (and somewhat witnessing) that it's tough to coach under Daboll, it's the opposite with the players.   For the players, it's almost a country club atmosphere.   Training camps are easy, Daboll brought back the ping pong tables in the locker room (I was always hearing ping pong matches going on when players were interviewed in the locker room by beat reporters).

I think Daboll really needs to spend some time evaluating how he does things and what's really important.  Schoen strikes me as more level-headed and aligned with modern management thinking.   So I think Schoen can help his friend.

[coggs]

I have been following the Giants saga closely and have heard pretty much everything reported. 

I don't think Wink is an angel in all this:

Leaking the story to Glazer was wrong.

Cursing out his boss and storming out of the meeting shows a lack of character.


Now, I am going to talk about what I see as signs of a dysfunctional organization (one that has been that way for quite some time).

1)  Daboll had to fire his close friend Bobby Johnson.  I can't help but feel like part of what motivated Daboll (without consulting Wink) to fire not one but both (I don't see a reasonable explanation for both rather than one) seemed to me like, "Well, if I have to fire my friend, then I will fire yours".  BJ did a terrible job, there was not one pundit, reporter, or fan that suggested Wilkons was doing a poor job.

2) The Giants leaking the story that Wink and the Wilkons brother were forming their own "fiefdom" was no doubt leaked by NYG, but to me, it makes Daboll look small and petty.  So what if Wink likes to hang out with them?  Part of being a good manager is letting people operate in a way that they are most comfortable and produce their best results.

3) The Giants leaking that Daboll went into the defensive meeting to confront the coaches to see if anyone had a problem with him reeked (to me) of a manager indulging his emotions rather than solving a problem.  If Daboll wanted to fix the rift between him and Wink, he should have had a meeting (in the office or gone out and eaten and met) with Wink privately to try and iron out their differences.  A semi-public challenge was highly unlikely to resolve the situation.

4) Drama has become too commonplace in the NYG organization.  The Wink saga reminds me of the Joe Judge saga, where Marc Columbo got fired after cursing out Joe Judge and storming off.  While I put some of that into the failings of the person cursing out, a good manager will de-escalate the situation to stop it from getting to that point (more often than not, there are exceptions).  In the case of Daboll firing both brothers without even consulting Wink, it seemed designed to set Wink off.


5) The Giants have replaced their DC every two years since Betcher.  You had Betcher, then Graham, then Wink, and now who knows. That sort of lack of stability hurts an organization.

6) The NYG leak about Wink thinking he was ultimately only answerable to ownership again doesn't paint the Giants in a good light.  First of all, that is true of every single employee of NYG.  My first mentor taught me when it comes to who is one's first priority; he told me to look to who signed my paycheck.  That all said, one has to wonder if that comment, I wouldn't have leaked, is an indication that the owner is too involved in the day-to-day operations.

7) I wonder about the whole McKinney comment about coaches not listening to him.  I wonder if someone in the organization put him up to say that.  It was out of character for McKinney and it clearly upset Wink who spent a full 8 minutes with the press addressing the issue.

8)  I saw reports that one thing that upset Wink was being publicly yelled at and dressed down by Daboll.  He felt that maybe that flies with a younger coach, but Wink is an older, established coach who deserves better.  There was a time where I would say Wink's expectations were off, but these days I think Wink's expectation is reasonable.  We saw it with Joe Judge and now, to a lesser degree, with Daboll; the Patriot's way becomes archaic; it's past its sell-by date.  The Patriots way is going the way of the Vince Lombardi way.  Times change, and leaders need to change with it.

9)  I am a bit disturbed by the Giants losing employees to colleges.  The last two S and C coaches have quit their jobs with the Giants to go work for a college team.  That really hurt when Wellman left, as he did an excellent job.  I think it's addition by subtraction with Fitzgerald, but still, the NFL is supposed to be the top of the NFL food chain.  People are not supposed to be quitting your organization.  We saw a RB coach quit, Graham quit, and a few other coaches under Judge.  I haven't observed this with other teams (although, to be fair, I don't follow them as closely, so I could be wrong).  What is it about NYG that people don't want to stay?

10)  I thought the whole wee hours of the morning presser with Daboll saying he expects Wink to stay was also in very poor form and reflected poorly on the organization.

1) Rather than "I have to fire my best friend so I am firing yours"? Think that is a bit of a stretch.  But, the attitude of, "If I fired my best friend, then anyone an be fired.." would be a fair way to say it.  Best friend or not, business is business.

2) When you say, "The Giants leaking...." to who are you referring?  Daboll, Schoen, Mara, Hanlon? A combo? These reporters have other sources.  They could be getting info from players, other coaches, etc.  Could also be getting it in bits and pieces and putting 2 and 2 together.  Regardless from where it is leaked, there is nothing wrong with defending themselves.  Schwartz could have had this info for weeks, and was just holding it until the time was right.

3) Wasn't it reported that Daboll did speak to Martindale privately.  Maybe he felt Martindale b.s or yes'd him to death just to get rid of him. 

4) agreed.  will happen when you do not win.

5) The defense has been lousy for a while.  1) if they didnt make changes, we would be complaining about that.  Plus, head coaches were fired.  So, coordinators will also go.

6)  Spoke about it in other thread.  If it is true, it is on Mara. 

7) Maybe Mckinney had been speaking up behind closed doors was brushed off.  Then, when asked for the 29th time, "What is going on with the defense" or "Why is the defense struggling.." he snapped and went off. 

8) If wink is the wise old vet, he simply nods his head, goes about his work and discusses it with Daboll. 

9) I can see where some prefer college ranks.  Recruiting who you want rather than have to play the hand you are dealt in the draft.  Some may prefer the increased teaching that happens on a college team as opposed to an NFL team.  Could also be a guy doesn't like dealing with the egos of NFL players.  Do you think the RB coach has more pull in an organization than Barkley?  In a well run college program, players know they are not above any of the coaches.

10) I dont think the time matters.  Think that is splitting hairs.  There is a lot of work to be done on their part, and they may not have expected the Wilkins/martindale thing to blow up like it did.  Or, they were playing that game. 

[MightyGiants]

1) Rather than "I have to fire my best friend so I am firing yours"? Think that is a bit of a stretch.  But, the attitude of, "If I fired my best friend, then anyone an be fired.." would be a fair way to say it.  Best friend or not, business is business.

2) When you say, "The Giants leaking...." to who are you referring?  Daboll, Schoen, Mara, Hanlon? A combo? These reporters have other sources.  They could be getting info from players, other coaches, etc.  Could also be getting it in bits and pieces and putting 2 and 2 together.  Regardless from where it is leaked, there is nothing wrong with defending themselves.  Schwartz could have had this info for weeks, and was just holding it until the time was right.

3) Wasn't it reported that Daboll did speak to Martindale privately.  Maybe he felt Martindale b.s or yes'd him to death just to get rid of him. 

4) agreed.  will happen when you do not win.

5) The defense has been lousy for a while.  1) if they didnt make changes, we would be complaining about that.  Plus, head coaches were fired.  So, coordinators will also go.

6)  Spoke about it in other thread.  If it is true, it is on Mara. 

7) Maybe Mckinney had been speaking up behind closed doors was brushed off.  Then, when asked for the 29th time, "What is going on with the defense" or "Why is the defense struggling.." he snapped and went off. 

8) If wink is the wise old vet, he simply nods his head, goes about his work and discusses it with Daboll. 

9) I can see where some prefer college ranks.  Recruiting who you want rather than have to play the hand you are dealt in the draft.  Some may prefer the increased teaching that happens on a college team as opposed to an NFL team.  Could also be a guy doesn't like dealing with the egos of NFL players.  Do you think the RB coach has more pull in an organization than Barkley?  In a well run college program, players know they are not above any of the coaches.

10) I dont think the time matters.  Think that is splitting hairs.  There is a lot of work to be done on their part, and they may not have expected the Wilkins/martindale thing to blow up like it did.  Or, they were playing that game.

1) Wilkins wasn't just Wink's friend.  Wilkins organized the personnel sending them in and out for Wink on game day.  Wilkins worked with Wink on game plans.   BJ was clearly bad at his job.  That wasn't the case with Wilkins.

2)  Over the years, I have observed and made a note of which "insiders" simply report what the Giants want to put out there and which will report everything regardless of how it makes the team look.  So when I am referring to leaks by NYG (I can't say specifically who does the leaking), I am referring to information that came from people I have seen be team mouthpieces.

3) I have not heard any reports suggesting Daboll and Wink met privately to try and resolve their differences.

5) The defense has been handicapped by weak talent and having to carry a terrible offense (there was no complimentary football).  So I have a hard time saying they were "lousy"