Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 10:14:13 AMHopefully not at #6.  That would REAK of Daniel Jones 2.0.  If they managed to trade down to late Round 1 and pick up a bunch of other picks along the way then fine.  But please, for the love of God, don't make the Daniel Jones mistake again when Daniel Jones is literally still on the team!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 10:21:25 AMTo me, the same logic that should have applied to Jones still applies here.  If you believe a prospect to be a franchise QB, you simply can't draft them too high.   If expectations are anything lower, you are just buying a lottery ticket hoping to get lucky.




ONE OTHER SCOUTING NOTE-   I have heard that with McCarthy, while he wasn't asked to carry his team, he was running an NFL-style offense, so the throws he made were NFL-type throws.

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 11:12:58 AMAgreed.  I think that's exactly what they'd be doing if they take JJ:  buying a lottery ticket and hoping to get lucky.  And if you're going to do that, I'd rather not do that in the top 10.  If they can collect a bunch of other picks to supplement the lottery ticket in case it fails then fine.  But we JUST saw what happens when you take a QB way too high simply because you fell in full bloom love after the senior bowl despite being mostly pedestrian in his college career. 

If they evaluate him at the same level of guys like Maye/Daniels then fine, I guess, but they'd be about the only people in the football watching world that does that.  And that would be a scary proposition for me because they haven't exactly been one of the best scouting organizations around.  When the Ravens evaluate a guy differently than everybody else I'm more inclined to trust their judgement.  There's nothing in recent history to suggest the Giants can properly scout much of anybody so if everybody else says late 1st/Early 2nd and the Giants say "#6 overall" I'd be terrified.  And after they just did the exact same thing with Jones/Gettleman it would be even more unsettling.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 11:19:35 AMYou don't buy lottery tickets in round one.  If you don't believe a QB is a franchise QB, you wait to day two or later.

As for scouting a QB prospect, if Schoen and Daboll are incapable of that, we might as well resign ourselves to being a bad team for the next decade.   

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 11:31:27 AMI sorta feel like the Ravens did it with Lamar Jackson.  They traded up into the 1st round to get him but only when he fell into range where the price wasn't enormous.  If he fails and turns out he can't play QB after all, the loss is easier to deal with than if they had sent their entire draft away to get into the top 10 to take him.  I see this as a similar situation.  After the big 3 any other QB prospect has some good qualities and some bad ones and you just don't know which one of those is gonna be a bust and which one is going to be a stud or whatever. 

I certainly hope Daboll and Schoen can scout QBs but to this point the only evidence we have to support one direction or another was not showing Jones the door before last season which was not the best look for either of them.  No need to rehash the reasons why, and there were some extenuating circumstances but I just don't yet have the blind faith needed to simply trust them to take a 4th QB in the top 6.

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 10:14:13 AMHopefully not at #6.  That would REAK of Daniel Jones 2.0.  If they managed to trade down to late Round 1 and pick up a bunch of other picks along the way then fine.  But please, for the love of God, don't make the Daniel Jones mistake again when Daniel Jones is literally still on the team!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 01:31:46 PMhttps://x.com/The33rdTeamFB/status/1753486141515600029?s=20

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 01:38:35 PMHe's sticking up for his boy...but he's lying.  If he's not he'd take JJ with his first pick and trade Herbert for a kings ransom.  Because if JJ is as good as Harbaugh seems to think he is, getting that for 5 years on a rookie deal would make more sense than paying Herbert top dollar for what in Harbaugh's estimation would be relatively equal performance. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 01:41:17 PMIt would cost the Chargers a $89 million dollar cap hit if they traded him this season.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 11:19:35 AMYou don't buy lottery tickets in round one. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 02, 2024, 04:25:44 PMSome teams do it, including teams that have had success. Would it not be fair to say that Trey Lance was a lottery ticket? How about Anthony Richardson?

And what about Josh Allen? He played for a mid-major school against weak competition and had poor college stats. How was he not a lottery ticket?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 02, 2024, 05:31:14 PMJosh Allen was projected to go top 10

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 02, 2024, 07:31:42 PMSo was Trey Lance. Top five.

If by "lottery ticket" you mean cheap flyer that has tons of upside if you happen to get it right, then I would not consider a QB projected to go in the late first round like McCarthy a lottery ticket either.

Quote from: nb587 on February 02, 2024, 08:38:51 PMI watch very little college football so I bring nothing to the table based on direct observation.  But, let me offer the following.  We had a moron for a GM who made a stupendous mistake drafting Jones at 6 and that was obvious to alot of people from day 1.  Whatever opinion one has of Schoen, he is way sharper than that moron and hard for me to believe people would equate the decision process if we took JJ early.  Also, Jones had  zero big time games on college.  JJ not only had many, he excelled when needed at the highest levels .There is no comparison between the two guys

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 02, 2024, 09:20:25 PMI agree that JJ had a considerably more impressive college career than DJ, but I would struggle to use a first round pick on a QB who in college was gameplanned around and not really used in a feature way in big games. Obviously Michigan's plan worked, as they were the best team in the country, and I'm not saying McCarthy had nothing to do with that because he did, but I would still be very leery about drafting him anywhere near the very top of the draft.

When I hear phrases like "he did everything the coaches asked of him" and "he can make all the throws", that's when I'm reminded of DJ.

Quote from: nb587 on February 02, 2024, 09:41:10 PMSecond, and you and I are over the top Giants fans, when did we ever think that Jones can make all the throws?   

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 02, 2024, 09:20:25 PMI agree that JJ had a considerably more impressive college career than DJ, but I would struggle to use a first round pick on a QB who in college was gameplanned around and not really used in a feature way in big games. Obviously Michigan's plan worked, as they were the best team in the country, and I'm not saying McCarthy had nothing to do with that because he did, but I would still be very leery about drafting him anywhere near the very top of the draft.

When I hear phrases like "he did everything the coaches asked of him" and "he can make all the throws", that's when I'm reminded of DJ.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 02, 2024, 10:19:33 PMI didn't, but I heard that all the time about him, and I have heard the same comment made about McCarthy.

Anytime someone says that about a QB, it feels like a conciliatory acknowledgement that there are a lot of other issues "but at least he can make throws that an NFL QB should be able to make." I have never considered that to be much of a compliment for an NFL QB. High school or even college maybe, but not a pro.

Maybe McCarthy will end up being very good. I acknowledge it's fully possible. But do I want to use a high first round pick on a guy who was basically used as a game manager in the biggest games of his college career? Not really. A day two pick if we really like him? Sure. But not first round for me, much less 6th overall. If they take him in the first round and he ends up being a true franchise QB, then I'll be very happily proven wrong.

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 02, 2024, 11:12:58 AMAgreed.  I think that's exactly what they'd be doing if they take JJ:  buying a lottery ticket and hoping to get lucky.  And if you're going to do that, I'd rather not do that in the top 10.  If they can collect a bunch of other picks to supplement the lottery ticket in case it fails then fine.  But we JUST saw what happens when you take a QB way too high simply because you fell in full bloom love after the senior bowl despite being mostly pedestrian in his college career. 

If they evaluate him at the same level of guys like Maye/Daniels then fine, I guess, but they'd be about the only people in the football watching world that does that.  And that would be a scary proposition for me because they haven't exactly been one of the best scouting organizations around.  When the Ravens evaluate a guy differently than everybody else I'm more inclined to trust their judgement.  There's nothing in recent history to suggest the Giants can properly scout much of anybody so if everybody else says late 1st/Early 2nd and the Giants say "#6 overall" I'd be terrified.  And after they just did the exact same thing with Jones/Gettleman it would be even more unsettling.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 03, 2024, 08:59:17 AMThere also are a lot of areas of improvement for McCarthy entering the NFL as some sources said late in 2023. An AFC director of player personnel told WalterFootball.com:

J.J. is similar to [Will] Levis, but J.J. has better feel in the pocket than Levis did .... J.J. has a strong arm, is pretty good throwing outside the numbers. But I question his vision and instincts. He's late throwing down the middle of the field, and that leads to some misses. He misses quite a bit vertically because he's late on throws. I'm not sure what he's looking at so we will have to find that out in the interviews .... I don't like the decision-making, and he can be careless and reckless with the ball, which is surprising for a Harbaugh guy. J.J. is more talented than a game manager, but the instinctive issues are concerning.

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2024jjmccarthy.php

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 03, 2024, 08:59:32 AMLike I've said, he should have stayed another year and moved to a different program. Perhaps Harbaugh leaving expedited his decision to push his chips in due to uncertainty.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 03, 2024, 08:50:38 AMBottom line for me in a nutshell:

He was clearly a good to very good college QB and has some nice tools. With that said, he never popped off the screen for me in big games the way I'd want a top 10 pick to do. Obviously I'm not a professional scout, but I have watched college and pro ball consistently for over 40 years now so I do have some degree of trust in my eyes.

I would not advocate taking him sixth overall under any circumstances, personally. And I don't expect him to last until 39. If he is still on the board past the 25/28 range and the Giants moved up to get him, I could live with that. What I don't want to see them do is let their desperate need for a good QB push them into overrating McCarthy or any other QB prospect this year. That is the Gettleman approach, and I really do not want to go back to that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 03, 2024, 09:16:08 AMI first heard this from Mike Lombardi.  It's called the 4 Ps of scouting.  Your comment in bold makes you a performance scout while I think we all strive to projection scouts.


Poor. Picker. Performance. Projector.

In every area of life, everyone is a scout. We all evaluate things every day, therefore most of us can relate to these four areas -- which generally cause teams to make mistakes.

» The "poor" scout is someone who cannot effectively evaluate talent. Now, it would be easy to assume that poor scouts wouldn't have jobs, but that would be a bad assumption since mistakes happen each year in the draft. Trust me, the league is filled with "poor" scouts.

» The "picker" scout finds one thing that is wrong about the player and allows that one area to alter his evaluation. Much like many teams did with Suggs, picking on the 40 time, even though his tape was consistently good.

» The "performance" scout can only base his evaluation on what a player does in his presence.

» The "projector" scout can view talent and project their ability, understanding how the player fits for his respective team.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 03, 2024, 09:02:04 AMHarbaugh said he wouldn't be surprised if he's the first QB off the board.

https://sports.yahoo.com/jim-harbaugh-makes-bold-j-230248640.html

Some say Harbaugh should take a drug test.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 03, 2024, 09:10:28 AMFrom JJ's perspective, he just won a championship.  Outside the top 3 QBs, the field is pretty weak.  He could have gone back, but it would have meant a new system (learning new systems tends to set QBs back), and there was no assurance the new system would suit him or that the team would still have the same talent levels.  There is always the injury wildcard as well.

Quote from: Gman329 on February 03, 2024, 10:51:41 AMThere are three QBs worth taking high and JJ clearly is not one of them.  Even taking him in the 2nd round would reek of desperation.  When you draft a QB, you want it to be with confidence, not hope. Even the top guys have uncertainty.  Drafting a QB lower is akin to buying a lottery ticket......and we're in no position to waste draft picks on a lottery ticket or hitching the next few seasons to a prayer.   

Quote from: Philosophers on February 03, 2024, 10:25:22 AMKeep one thing in mind.  Nobody thought Baker Mayfield would go #1 as everybody picked the other guys like Darnold and Rosen.  Teams see things differently because they have more info than fans.  All the interviews, private sessions, film study review with player, etc. is info fans never see or hear about.

Quote from: Painter on February 02, 2024, 05:48:21 PMC'mon Harbaugh, you can support your boy McCarthy without a) sounding like a disingenuous jerk, and b) embarrassing him when he not only isn't among the top-3, but possibly not even taken on Day One. But then, I would guess that McCarthy is not so naive as to take Harbaugh's prediction seriously.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 03, 2024, 12:23:15 PMTrue about Mayfield being a surprise at first overall but he was absolutely expected to be top 10 and probably top 7. Prognosticators have McCarthy going in the 18th-25th type range right now.

I agree with you that anything can happen though. Treating these mocks or prospect rankings lists as some sort of gospel or believing that teams' boards look more or less the same is completely misguided.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 03, 2024, 03:19:40 PMYeah but the prognosticators are dopes like us.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 03, 2024, 03:44:18 PMI was really high on McCarthy, but I have concerns about his mental health. In the NFL the pressure is at an all time high...especially QB



https://www.si.com/college/michigan/football/michigan-football-wolverines-jj-mccarthy-mental-health-big-ten-meditation-depression

Quote from: nb587 on February 03, 2024, 04:16:11 PMLet me ask a real stupid question here from a non fan of the college game.  I have not read about Michigan WRs talked about as being especially good.  If true, and JJ is just a game manager, how is it that none of the quality opponents, Ohio St, Alabama, Washington etc couldnt stop the run- put 8-9 guys on the line of scrimmage and make JJ beat them with his arm.  To my knowledge, it never happened.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 03, 2024, 07:41:30 PMAnother thing to add to the equation:

JJ had basically 3000 yds 22 Tds 4 Int and an 88 QBR. Which are good stats for not having the best wrs and a great RB room.

However, they sat him in the 2nd, and 3rd quarter because they were so far ahead in like 70% of their games. Had he played the full 4 quarters in every game he'd be pushing 30+ Tds and 4500 yards. So take that into consideration when you look at the Jayden Daniels and Nix Stata because they played the whole game for almost all their games.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 03, 2024, 04:50:38 PMShould pin this thread and see how opinions evolve over the next 11 weeks or so.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 07:04:21 AMIf I were a betting man, I would say JJ's draft stock will continue to rise.  Because he didn't declare until January, nowhere near the amount of work was done on him.  As more people (particularly NFL people, and their thoughts leak) dig in, I think he will be pushed higher and higher on people's draft boards.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 03, 2024, 07:41:30 PMAnother thing to add to the equation:

JJ had basically 3000 yds 22 Tds 4 Int and an 88 QBR. Which are good stats for not having the best wrs and a great RB room.

However, they sat him in the 2nd, and 3rd quarter because they were so far ahead in like 70% of their games. Had he played the full 4 quarters in every game he'd be pushing 30+ Tds and 4500 yards. So take that into consideration when you look at the Jayden Daniels and Nix Stata because they played the whole game for almost all their games.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 10:28:26 AMPFF allows me to find the snap counts per QB (if only one count no post-season)


JJ McCarthy-  826 (650 regular season)
C. Williams- 761
D. Maye-  909
J. Daniels- 702
M. Penix- 984 (757 regular season)
B Nix-  870 (752 regular season)


So McCarthy did take significantly less snaps than the other leading QBs

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 04, 2024, 11:52:55 AMYeah I knew there was a big difference. I think sometimes people over think things. The kid has the highest winning percentage of any Qb in college the past decade. Think of all the great qbs, and he has a better percentage than them all. The kid went 27-1 in college and 36-2 in high school. Meaning he's a total of 63-3 in the last 7 years of football. Guys like that just win, he's a culture builder/tone setter. He reminds me a lot of Jalen Hurts when he came out, a lot of people doubted him a ton, but all the guy did was win whether in high school, at Alabama, or at Oklahoma he just won games and figured it out. I don't think Mccarthys game us anything like hurts, but just that winning mindset over a sustained period of time makes me think the kid just figures it out. I think his game is very similar to Joe Burrow, though I've seen Andrew Luck and Cousins comps for him.

The kid has a howitzer for an arm, and you can see him read the entire field, go through progressions, and lead that Michigan team. I also believe him learning from Harbaugh and being in a Pro style offense for those years sets him up to be the most ready to step in and immediately contribute.

I would be happy with the pick assuming we get him a number 1 receiver at 6, and then use the 1 2nd round pick and some others to move up and get him at the end of the 1st.

Quote from: londonblue on February 04, 2024, 02:23:13 PMSmart money might be McCarthy to Denver at 12 or in a small trade back. I just cannot see us risking it at 6 but I can see Payton taking him.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 02:57:20 PMTo me, the QB is so special I don't see much of a difference between spending a 12th pick or a 6th.  I mean, do you pass on a QB because you have a slotted a few spots later?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 02:57:20 PMTo me, the QB is so special I don't see much of a difference between spending a 12th pick or a 6th.  I mean, do you pass on a QB because you have a slotted a few spots later?

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 03:26:05 PMIf MHJ and McCarthy are both there at six, who do you take?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 02:57:20 PMTo me, the QB is so special I don't see much of a difference between spending a 12th pick or a 6th.  I mean, do you pass on a QB because you have a slotted a few spots later?

Quote from: londonblue on February 04, 2024, 04:33:18 PMIt is not just about the player it is also the situation, coaching, support. Denver taking him at 12 is a substantially lower risk for them and him than us taking him at 6 IMO.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 05:18:44 PMFair point, the Broncos are in a better position to develop a drafted QB.

Quote from: nb587 on February 04, 2024, 06:21:16 PMCompletely disagree with that statement.  Why do you say they're in a better position?

Quote from: sooners56 on February 04, 2024, 03:37:37 PMNo way in hell should the Giants take McCarthy at pick 6. What do they say about a running game? It's a QBs best friend. Michigan could run the ball, which made McCarthy's job way easier. I watched a few games of his and at no point did I see anything special. Seems like others disagree with me but if based on the info I have, I don't take him at 6. Reeks of Daniel Jones all over again!!!!

Quote from: Philosophers on February 04, 2024, 11:38:03 PMI hate the JJ and DJ comparisons.  DJ looks afraid to make a mistake throwing the ball.  JJ is not afraid to take chances.

Also DJ appears quiet everywhere.  JJ has a lot more energy in his demeanor in terms of encouraging and pumping up teammates.

Both are good people but JJ has more passion.

Quote from: katkavage on February 05, 2024, 07:55:52 AMThe athlete's demeanor is not an issue with me. Everyone is different. Results are what matter, not how you look getting those results.

Quote from: katkavage on February 05, 2024, 07:55:52 AMThe athlete's demeanor is not an issue with me. Everyone is different. Results are what matter, not how you look getting those results.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 04, 2024, 11:52:55 AMThe kid has a howitzer for an arm, and you can see him read the entire field, go through progressions, and lead that Michigan team. I also believe him learning from Harbaugh and being in a Pro style offense for those years sets him up to be the most ready to step in and immediately contribute.

I would be happy with the pick assuming we get him a number 1 receiver at 6, and then use the 1 2nd round pick and some others to move up and get him at the end of the 1st.

Quote from: BluesCruz on February 06, 2024, 03:04:38 PMIm not crazy about McCarthy.  Chargers can have him.

I like Nix and Penix who both might be available at #6

Quote from: BluesCruz on February 06, 2024, 03:04:38 PMIm not crazy about McCarthy.  Chargers can have him.

I like Nix and Penix who both might be available at #6

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 06, 2024, 03:39:22 PMIn the championship game, the Wolverines basically relied on the run-game to win it (same against Ohio State).

A crucial question to consider is why? There are many good reasons, so a follow-up question is why not?

The kid was in a tough spot. Maybe he's the next Tom Brady and never had a chance to prove it on the field.

Or the next Daniel Jones & the coach knew it & thought their ONLY chance to win big games was run the ball.

Or, regardless how good he really is, the coaches firmly believed (as I do) their BEST chance to win any big game with a college team is/was to try to run the ball (the easy choice since it had worked ALL YEAR) and not pass the ball until the back end of the defense began moving closer to the line of scrimmage to stop the run.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 06, 2024, 03:39:22 PMIn the championship game, the Wolverines basically relied on the run-game to win it (same against Ohio State).

A crucial question to consider is why? There are many good reasons, so a follow-up question is why not?

The kid was in a tough spot. Maybe he's the next Tom Brady and never had a chance to prove it on the field.

Or the next Daniel Jones & the coach knew it & thought their ONLY chance to win big games was run the ball.

Or, regardless how good he really is, the coaches firmly believed (as I do) their BEST chance to win any big game with a college team is/was to try to run the ball (the easy choice since it had worked ALL YEAR) and not pass the ball until the back end of the defense began moving closer to the line of scrimmage to stop the run.

Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 07:26:46 AMBob,


If you were Harbaugh and you could both run the ball very well and pass the ball very well which would you choose up in cold and windy Michigan?  While coaches pass because more often than not it will result in more scores, most coaches would prefer to run as it's safer and it helps with time of posession.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 06, 2024, 08:27:50 PMIt was just the gameplan. Michigan was the only team in the Playoff without elite Wrs. While they did have two top 50 prospects at RB, and leaned on them in the Championship game. The game before however Mccarthy against Alabama, he put up more yards passing than Alabama had been giving up in total all season. When he needed to throw it he did, and when it wasn't necessary he didn't. The Penn St and Ohio St game they were without Harbaugh I believe which is why they went with the conservative play calling.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 11:06:38 AMI have officially boarded the JJ at six train.  It's funny because comparisons have been made to Daniel Jones. It seems like JJ has been getting a bum wrap.  It's been decades since I have witnessed the sort of negativity directed at a quarterback, as I have seen with Daniel Jones.  Only DJ is not this horrible QB.  He has good arm talent, can make some really good throws, is a major threat with his legs, and his character and work ethic are off the charts.   Yes, he does seem a bit shell-shocked, and there are questions in terms of his processing, but DJ has a far better skill set than most will acknowledge.  It's almost comical seeing fans' knee-jerk reactions of "I will stop being a fan of my FILL IN THE BLANK if they draft JJ McCarthy in round one.   It's a reaction based purely on emotion/bias rather than sound player evaluation.


Now, this is where JJ and DJ are significantly different.   JJ is a proven winner; he won in high school and college.   Being a proven winner is big, in my book.  According to Zierlein, JJ has elite processing, which is a major difference between the two and is a huge plus for JJ (in my book). 

I will acknowledge that owing to the smaller sample size, there is a bigger risk with McCarthy than one would ideally like, but when you are picking at 6, the prospect isn't going to be perfect.  I will take a little unknown than an older QB who is maxed out or a prospect with red flags/question marks.

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 07, 2024, 12:20:04 PMI can't get there with JJ.  At least not at 6.  He might be the 4th best QB of this draft.  I could get there.  But he's got too many questions around him for me to take him over say the best edge rusher, WR or OL available.  Especially since Jones is going to be here next year no matter what.  So if my choice is JJ at 6 and whatever is left at OL/WR/LB in the 2nd round.  Or Alt or Nabers at 6 and Nix or Penix in Round 2 I think I take the latter as a matter of preference. 

And I don't think Jones has gotten a bad wrap really.  He's had 5 years to show he is capable of playing at this level.  He's shown who he is which is a mediocre QB.  He can beat the really bad defenses and struggles against the rest.  The Giants have not exactly surrounded him with the best of talent but he also hasn't looked good when he does get the time and has guys open.  He may have a nice career as a backup for the next 7-8 years but that's about it.  Which is pretty much who he was in college to be honest.  There was no excuse to take him at 6 then and it looks even worse now.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 12:22:02 PMWhat are your question makers with McCarthy?


As for Daniel Jones, pop quiz:  Who has more playoff wins Daniel Jones or Justin Herbert?

Quote from: Gmo11 on February 07, 2024, 12:37:54 PMWho has more TD/Yards/ higher QBR/ passer rating....basically every metric?  If you're saying right now the Chargers would trade Herbert for Jones... I would simply say I disagree and leave it at that.

From what I've seen which is admittedly not his entire body of work yet but what I've seen so far has not jumped out to me as anything special.  What I mean is that he's solid in most areas but not exceptional in any.  He's not Jayden Daniels running the ball.  He's not Caleb Williams improvising and on the run.  He doesn't have en elite trait as far as I can tell. 

Michigan was a run first team and they found themselves in a lot of blowouts so I am aware that he has gotten far less snaps and far less opportunities to showcase his skillset late in games when it matters most.  But what I don't know is if they were a run heavy team because they wanted to be or because they had to be.  I'm not sure we'll get an honest answer to that ever.  Roman Wilson looked really good at the senior bowl so I'm not sure the WRs were the problem.  The OL was clearly good since they were running the ball so well.  So I guess my grade right now is incomplete but if that's my current grade I'm not using a top 10 pick on that. 

But I don't get to talk to the guy, I don't get to see his workouts, I don't get to sit down and break down plays with him and get to know him.  And so if a team does all of that and decide the 4th best QB is better than the 2nd WR in Nabers or the best OL in Alt or anybody else...I'll accept it. 

With Jones I was pretty certain he was going to be bad.  That pick infuriated me.  He actually looked bad at Duke.  With JJ I don't know if he's going to be good or bad so I'll gladly wait and see.  I do think Caleb Williams is going to be great.  I think Daniels is going to be great (though maybe not in year 1).  I actually am not as high on Maye as others so I don't know if I'd want him either to be honest.   

Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 07, 2024, 01:07:37 PMIt's important to consider that teams will draft a QB high based on potential ceiling, not just what people felt they saw on the field.  Its why Josh Allen was drafted as high as he was. In McCarthy's situation, its more about play calling and what the team did rather than what he did (for Allen it was accuracy).  Scouts, HCs, OCs, and GMs will all be looking for the potential and not just that the team did or didn't throw the ball as much as some would like to have seen. 

If I were a HC and my team was able to literally just run over opponents, I would just runover opponents and play good defense. 

I don't know how many fans are proficient at seeing a QBs processing speed.  I am sure some are.  Arm strength and accuracy are much more tangible in my opinion.  He seems better than fine in both those spots.

Having been coached by Harbaugh is plus in my mind (not a reason to draft him necessarily, but it doesn't hurt).   

Quote from: Painter on February 07, 2024, 01:38:55 PMNo way, no how, can I imagine the Giants using their 6th overall on J.J. McCarthy. No matter how we may try to rationalize it, there is nothing in his background and performance to suggest any greater potential than was so with Daniel Jones when taken at 6 in 2019.

Given the uncertainty and angst that Schoen/Daboll must cope with in the wake of what now are widely viewed as questionable decisions, last year and the year before, concerning both Jones and Barkley, the last thing they are likely to do is to roll the dice with McCarthy when they have much less risky choices in which to fill more immediate needs.

If they are to take him at all it won't be until Round 2 unless they are willing to sacrifice their 3rd Rounder to move back into the late 1st.  Do I have to add IMHO?

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on February 07, 2024, 01:38:55 PMNo way, no how, can I imagine the Giants using their 6th overall on J.J. McCarthy. No matter how we may try to rationalize it, there is nothing in his background and performance to suggest any greater potential than was so with Daniel Jones when taken at 6 in 2019.

Given the uncertainty and angst that Schoen/Daboll must cope with in the wake of what now are widely viewed as questionable decisions, last year and the year before, concerning both Jones and Barkley, the last thing they are likely to do is to roll the dice with McCarthy when they have much less risky choices in which to fill more immediate needs.

If they are to take him at all it won't be until Round 2 unless they are willing to sacrifice their 3rd Rounder to move back into the late 1st.  Do I have to add IMHO?

Cheers!

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 07, 2024, 02:09:30 PMI agree with this. With all the negativity around DJ, there's no way Schoen/Daboll are going to put themselves in the position for critics to say "how could you make the same mistake twice?" (Yes, I know they didn't draft DJ)

And I also agree that taking a legit #1 WR in Nabers or a stud edge rusher (I prefer Latu over Turner) would make much more sense than taking the #4 QB in the draft who was never asked to carry his team.

With an extra 2nd-rounder, I could see them trading back into the first to grab him should he fall, but I'm of the opinion the team needs to preserve - or add - draft capital, not trade it away.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 01:56:12 PM1)  I am already seeing popular mocks with JJ going anywhere from 12 - 18.  So it's not unrealistic to think he couldn't end up top 10

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 02:13:05 PMYour comment in bold reminds me of an old NFL saying-  A GM that thinks like the fans (or does their job with an eye toward pleasing the fans) will soon join the fans.

Quote from: T200 on February 07, 2024, 02:17:04 PMWhy is so much weight and credence given to these mocks? They are just someone else's guesses. Educated or not, it's still a guess, not a guarantee.

The only value I get from these mocks is to see which players are popular.

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 07, 2024, 02:19:53 PMIt doesn't change the reality that it's how people think and act.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 02:19:57 PMTim,

It depends on the mock.  Some mocks are simply talent evaluators ranking prospects and assigning talent based on team needs. Other mocks are based on what sort of information the person doing the mock can get from scouts and NFL front office types.  The latter mocks can provide insights into how NFL teams view the prospects, which is always different than the draft community (the ones currently saying JJ isn't top 10)

Quote from: T200 on February 07, 2024, 02:30:56 PMI hear ya, Rich. They're all still guesses, some based on more information than others.

Every year, there's a bunch of people saying, "I didn't see that coming." No one ever does.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 02:33:49 PMTim,

Let me turn it around.  How does Larry know JJ McCarthy ISN'T worth a top-10 pick?


Back on topic, I can't wait until the Combine.  I suspect that McCarthy puts up very impressive numbers and throws the ball well.   On top of that the Combine will allow the media to mingle with scouts and NFL front office people.   I have a feeling McCarthy's perceived draft value will have an upward trajectory after that event.

Quote from: T200 on February 07, 2024, 02:38:26 PMThat's not turning it around. It's still someone else's opinion. It has no bearing on what any of the 32 teams will do with any of their picks.

And now I get to get on my soapbox about the combine!  :laugh:

Why is so much weight put on a weekend event that doesn't include pads? Every single event that they do at the combine will NOT be done on an NFL field.

Why does the combine carry more weight than what a player has done for the 3 or 4 years he's been playing college ball? Talk about a small sample size. Same with the Senior Bowl.

It's just ssa sdrawkcab to me.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 02:45:42 PMTim,

Our perception of draft prospects is pretty much shaped by reports on said draft prospects.  I don't think any of us have time to spend hours breaking down film on each of the hundreds of prospects (assuming we even have access to such film).  So much of our perspective is from listening to reports.   As I said, when the NFL and the draftniks all get together and start talking, those perspectives being reported will change regardless of no snaps played.

Now, as to the Combine itself, there is value to the NFL teams.  They will tell you the biggest value is the medical examines.  Beyond that, the measurements and the testing pretty much act as confirmations.  Teams already have an idea based on scouting what a player's measurements and performance should be.  So if the Combine shows something different, it will cause teams to go back and reevaluate.   Also, most teams have measurement and performance standards for prospects they are willing to draft.  So, a player confirming outside those standards will get heavily dinged.

Quote from: T200 on February 07, 2024, 02:49:43 PMThe medical/physical/mental evaluations are fine by me.

Why are the players doing speed and agility tests in shorts and t-shirts? Put on the pads and helmets and do the same thing. That's more realistic to me.

According to PFF, who has the most bench presses per game?  /sarcasm/  :laugh:

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 01:56:12 PMLarry, a few thoughts:

1)  I am already seeing popular mocks with JJ going anywhere from 12 - 18.  So it's not unrealistic to think he couldn't end up top 10

2) Not addressing an issue is but an option, and like all the other options, it comes with risk.   Daboll may not see a season 4 if Jones pulls an Aaron Rodgers and suffers another neck injury on his third play, and the season is kneecapped before it can start.

Quote from: Gman329 on February 07, 2024, 03:06:38 PMOK, if I untangle that triple negative correctly, you're saying he realistically could wind up in the top 10.  Right?   ;)

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 07, 2024, 05:12:57 PMMccarthy and Jones couldn't be further apart as prospects. I don't see a single comparison, not in high school or college were Mccarthy was prolific.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 05:34:37 PMI agree, but I hear the comparison frequently

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 07, 2024, 02:13:05 PMYour comment in bold reminds me of an old NFL saying-  A GM that thinks like the fans (or does their job with an eye toward pleasing the fans) will soon join the fans.

Quote from: Painter on February 07, 2024, 09:28:49 PMI would agree and can't imagine that Schoen & Co. would be capable of sharing the gullibility of the average fan. In any case, I am talking solely about the notion of the Giants taking McCarthy at 6 which I believe would be both unwise and unnecessary.

Cheers!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 08, 2024, 03:08:12 PMhttps://x.com/thorku/status/1755683333638345056?s=20

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 08, 2024, 03:08:12 PMhttps://x.com/thorku/status/1755683333638345056?s=20

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 08, 2024, 05:09:22 PMHe's a certified killer. I think come draft time we may miss out on him being at 6.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on February 07, 2024, 03:19:12 PMAs I've established elsewhere on here. The Giants need to move on from Jones. If that means the Rook can sit behind him and absorb how to do and not do stuff. I'm all for it.

The one thing Gettleman got right was the fact if your QB is there, you take him.

If this kid is the guy this regime want to hitch their wagon to, then take him. Jones' structure always allowed for this approach. Some here knew and the Giants knew it was a possibility Jones wouldn't take the leap, therefore they put themselves to take a QB this year, if there's one there.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 08, 2024, 05:09:22 PMHe's a certified killer. I think come draft time we may miss out on him being at 6.

Quote from: sooners56 on February 08, 2024, 06:30:09 PMHopefully so

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 08, 2024, 06:47:14 PMSo then when/where do we get the Qb of the future? How much more does the organization need to lose before everyone is tired of losing and willing for the organization to go after a qb?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 08, 2024, 08:13:06 AMLarry,

Can you expand on your comments and explain why you think drafting McCarthy at 6 would be unwise and unnecessary?  I get that many don't see (or don't yet see McCarthy) as a potential franchise QB and hence unworthy of the 6 pick, but I am curious as to why you don't think presumably you feel the team doesn't need to draft a QB.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 10, 2024, 08:43:58 AMI think part of the problem is too many people are not properly scouting McCarthy.   "why didn't he carry the team on passing alone?" isn't scouting.   Saying you never saw an amazing 400+ yard game isn't scouting.  Scouting is looking for the traits that successful NFL QBs have and looking at the entire trait set and projecting those traits into the NFL


https://x.com/thorku/status/1755688402366730342?s=20

Quote from: Philosophers on February 10, 2024, 09:04:26 AMRich - Thanks for posting this video.  I saw everyone of those plays in that video during the regular seasons he played.  What I keep telling folks is look at the traits he displays when he makes those throws.  Many of them are into tight coverage.  Watch his base platform that he uses.  He is stable, head up looking downfield.  Now watch his throwing motion.  Big hip turn and drive from his lower body.  Arm angle varies.  Even when he is running, he maintains good mechanics.  He is always looking downfield to make a play.  Some of those throws were missiles fired far downfield into tight coverage.  When folks say or I read that his arm is "average" I want to say, "what video of him if any have you actually watched?"   

Quote from: Philosophers on February 10, 2024, 09:04:26 AMRich - Thanks for posting this video.  I saw everyone of those plays in that video during the regular seasons he played.  What I keep telling folks is look at the traits he displays when he makes those throws.  Many of them are into tight coverage.  Watch his base platform that he uses.  He is stable, head up looking downfield.  Now watch his throwing motion.  Big hip turn and drive from his lower body.  Arm angle varies.  Even when he is running, he maintains good mechanics.  He is always looking downfield to make a play.  Some of those throws were missiles fired far downfield into tight coverage.  When folks say or I read that his arm is "average" I want to say, "what video of him if any have you actually watched?"   

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 10, 2024, 10:03:28 AMkids game reminds me of a mini Joe Burrow. That's my comp for him at least.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 10, 2024, 10:26:04 AMI think he is more mobile than Burrow

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 10, 2024, 10:26:04 AMI think he is more mobile than Burrow

Quote from: Painter on February 10, 2024, 11:00:40 AMThere are pros and cons, strengths and weaknesses for every one of these guys from which we may then cherry-pick so as to suit what was just a whim before we found ourselves investing it with personal bias.

Although we are never free of the doubt and uncertainty that surrounds the Draft, some will find it necessary to proselytize in behalf of someone or something. There is, of course, no harm in that even if later we claim credit for a specific accuracy while ignoring or failing to acknowledge our far more frequent inaccuracies- see wrong guesses.

But then, I suppose, that is exactly what this exercise is about, something which applies equally to the pundits and 'perts, and to fans casual or obsessed. It is a guessing game not burdened by subsequent memory and where, "Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan"

Cheers!

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 10, 2024, 10:03:28 AMkids game reminds me of a mini Joe Burrow. That's my comp for him at least.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 10, 2024, 02:05:37 PMLarry,

Your post reminds me of one of my favorite quotes


"In many ways, the work of a critic is easy. We risk very little, yet enjoy a position over those who offer up their work and their selves to our judgment. We thrive on negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read. But the bitter truth we critics must face, is that in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is probably more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."

Why not raise the bar and share your scouting thoughts on McCarthy?   

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 08, 2024, 06:47:14 PMSo then when/where do we get the Qb of the future? How much more does the organization need to lose before everyone is tired of losing and willing for the organization to go after a qb?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 07:39:43 AMMichigan true freshman QB J.J. McCarthy throws mind blowing 69 yard touchdown

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 07:43:47 AM@Jclayton92 mentioned Burrow

😴 SLEEPER! 😴 J.J. McCarthy like Joe Burrow? OVER-INFLATION for WHO!? | The Matt Barrie Show

Quote from: Philosophers on February 11, 2024, 09:50:46 AMThe best part of that throw was how good his body mechanics remained knowing he was going to get clobbered after he throws it.  Throwing under fire.  Oh yeah and that throw.  Ridiculous.  How about seeing him on the opposite side of the field?  That is all the stuff you dont or cant teach. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 10:00:41 AMPlus all of that was from a young man just out of high school

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 11, 2024, 09:57:46 AMHis layering of his velocity and touch are next level. The way he manipulates defenders with his eyes, as well as his high low processing of reads is honestly ridiculous. People that watch the film on him will eventually come around.

- Wins at an unprecedented level
- Just turned 21 20 days ago
- exceptional processing
- high level mobility
- Can Coach up
- Hasn't even touched his ceiling
- Cannon for an arm
- Cerebral Qb that sees the whole field
- Crazy touch and ability to lead

You can get all of that with our #6 pick, you don't have to give up the farm, you don't have to really do anything. At the end of the day I don't know how you don't take that chance if there's even a 30-40% chance that he becomes the equivalent of a Burrow.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 11, 2024, 10:31:42 AMYou summed up his qualities nicely.  I get it that Jim Harbaugh was speaking highly of "his" guy when he said recently that he thinks JJ can be the first QB off the board, but I think he is really saying it because of those intangibles.  It's so clear to me that JJ received very good coaching in high school and growing up but that he also listened really well.  Unlike so many players, he likes to be coached.  I think that's why he and Jim Harbaugh connected so well as coach and player.  It does not hurt that JJ got NFL coaching in college either playing in an NFL style offense and practicing daily against an NFL style defense.  Like I said in another post, maybe he does not become a top QB like a Joe Burrow, but his floor is very high.  It's not like he will be a JaMarcus Russell or Akili Smith.  No way.  Those guys had great athleticism but nothing between the ears.  I happen to think his ceiling (as you noted) is not even close to being reached yet.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 11, 2024, 12:19:43 PMI can't help but wonder how much of this recently surging Giants fan love-fest with McCarthy is driven by the fact that the consensus top three QBs in the class will almost certainly be gone when we pick and unavailable through trade. Would we have a 12 page thread about this guy if we were picking 2nd overall? I tend to highly doubt it.

By the way, I'm not saying McCarthy won't be good. He may be good or even great. But I think a lot of Giants fans are kind of subconsciously talking themselves into falling in love with him. If we were picking in the top 2 or top 3 I don't think this would have happened. Just my two cents.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 12:24:12 PMI would be happy with Maye or McCarthy.  I will be more than happy to see Williams (boom or bust type prospect) and Daniels (A one-year wonder) come off the board before the Giants pick.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 12:22:22 PMMy latest Mock.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 11, 2024, 12:27:03 PMOut of curiosity, what do you not like about Daniels?

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 12:32:31 PMHow about this one with no trades? Daniels unavailable.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 11, 2024, 12:38:08 PMEd both your drafts contain an EDGE and DL, to me both are desperately needed moving forward. And depending on what happens with Xavier McKinney, Safety could turn into a great need

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 11, 2024, 12:27:03 PMOut of curiosity, what do you not like about Daniels?

QuoteWhen evaluating a QB, we can't downgrade him for the offense he played in. That would be ludicrous. What we do is look at his triats and break them down to see f he has the talent to be a top NFL prospect and there is no question that is what McCarthy is.

If we look at his numbers over the last two seasons, we see that he completed 446 of 654 throws for a 68.5 completion percentage, 44 TDs, and only nine interceptions. His completion percentage was at 72% for the 2023 season.

While completion percentage does not actually mean that a passer is accurate, we have to watch the tape to see that. What we see is a tight ball that has very good ball placement and usually puts the receiver in position to get yards after the catch.

McCarthy has a tight overhand delivery and a very quick release. His arm strength is very good, and he consistently throws a tight ball. He shows that he can go through a full progression and make good decisions. He seldom forces throws, and that is why his interception numbers have been low for the last two seasons. What I like is he can go from one to two to three and back to one before he releases the ball. He sees the field very well. What also stands out is his poise and patience in the pocket. He doesn't get rattled.

McCarthy is just as effective deep as he is with short throws. He is also good at changing his arm angle when needed in order to get a throw off.

During the later part of the college football season, many analysts felt that McCarthy was more than likely a second-round pick. They were off as I feel he doesn't get out of the first round, and because of the offense he played in, he may be more NFL-ready than the QBs that are supposedly ranked higher.

McCarthy is a very smart quarterback who doesn't make many mistakes. Michigan coaches swear that when NFL coaches get McCarthy in an interview room and put him on the board, he is going to blow them away with his intelligence and knowledge of QB play.

QuoteDon't be surprised to see McCarthy get selected in the Top 15 of the Draft.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 11, 2024, 12:19:43 PMI can't help but wonder how much of this recently surging Giants fan love-fest with McCarthy is driven by the fact that the consensus top three QBs in the class will almost certainly be gone when we pick and unavailable through trade. Would we have a 12 page thread about this guy if we were picking 2nd overall? I tend to highly doubt it.

By the way, I'm not saying McCarthy won't be good. He may be good or even great. But I think a lot of Giants fans are kind of subconsciously talking themselves into falling in love with him. If we were picking in the top 2 or top 3 I don't think this would have happened. Just my two cents.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 11, 2024, 12:19:43 PMI can't help but wonder how much of this recently surging Giants fan love-fest with McCarthy is driven by the fact that the consensus top three QBs in the class will almost certainly be gone when we pick and unavailable through trade. Would we have a 12 page thread about this guy if we were picking 2nd overall? I tend to highly doubt it.

By the way, I'm not saying McCarthy won't be good. He may be good or even great. But I think a lot of Giants fans are kind of subconsciously talking themselves into falling in love with him. If we were picking in the top 2 or top 3 I don't think this would have happened. Just my two cents.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 12:57:07 PMBreaking Down Michigan Quarterback J.J. McCarthy
Greg Gabriel breaks down what he's seen from Michicagan's J.J. McCarthy.

PS-  Greg Gabriel is a former Giants scout and former head of Bears scouting.

https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2024/2/4/24060710/breaking-down-michigan-quarterback-j-j-mccarthy-nfl-draft-quarterback-profile-prospect-projection

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 01:37:15 PMAs Yogi said, it's like Deja vu all over again.

https://x.com/ggabefootball/status/1114278582380109824?

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 01:37:15 PMAs Yogi said, it's like Deja vu all over again.

https://x.com/ggabefootball/status/1114278582380109824?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 01:40:09 PMNot sure what Greg's statement about Daniel Jones not falling to 17 has to do with his scouting report (from the vantage point of someone who scouted in the NFL at the highest levels) on JJ McCarthy.

Plus, as Phil Simms said, Daniel Jones has NFL starter talent and ability.  No one could have predicted the injury issues (unless you considered the Giants' history of bad lines

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 01:42:28 PMhttps://x.com/ggabefootball/status/1633217169948278784?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 11, 2024, 01:43:58 PMAs Phil Simms says, Jones has NFL starter talent and ability.  The neck weakness was not known outside of the Giant's organization.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 12:22:22 PMMy latest Mock.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 11, 2024, 02:25:58 PMThe weakness is from the neck up. As evidenced by the inferior play to his backup and his undrafted FA practice squad backup. It's admirable though how you still support him and deflect his weaknesses. Here's the thing, GG was all in on Jones and now he's touting JJ the same way. He may be right or he may be wrong. 32 teams draft QB's and most all of them are wrong. They go with the selection that they have available or can reach. They and GG will be no surer of picking a winner than I would or a monkey throwing darts at a dartboard. I've studied JJ and at this point, I don't see it. The difference is that I don't overstate my position.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 13, 2024, 09:34:18 AMIf we think there are 4 worthy QB now in top 10 including JJ, that puts us in a great position at 6.  San Diego has Herbert so they don't need a QB.  Woukd they trade it?  Possibly but I think the Chargers have a lot of very good pieces but just needed a much better coaching staff.  Harbaugh thinks the best way to help Justin Herbert is to give him a better running game.  That starts with improving the OL.  I think he loves the idea of getting 1 of the 2 best OLs there.  I thinkbhe stays put and takes an OL.  Now with 4 other spots remaining ahead of the Giants 1 will probabky go to a WR or possibly a second OT.  That leaves the Giants in line to get one of the four QBs.  The only real wrench is if they love so much over the others that to get him they have to trade.

Quote from: Painter on February 13, 2024, 09:43:18 PM Quite apparently, the operative word has become desperation and all that comes with it. Of course, when it involves McCarthy, it does seem that we prefer to think of it as inspiration.


Cheers!

Quote from: Philosophers on February 14, 2024, 09:45:24 AMRich - I think the stats you have been listing show many of the nuances that fans who seek volume stats simply don't see but NFL teams do.  So much of his success that you see in those stats is because he was extremely well coached but that he makes it easy for coaches to coach him by being so receptive.  That comes from both him as well as his family who in my mind did a fabulous job raising this kid.  He's balanced.  He's humble.  He listens and he wants to get better and will do what you ask him to do.  I think the kid's mental intangibles are going to be off the charts.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 09:52:51 AMI remember when I took the Greg Gabriel scouting class, one of the things he taught was it's important to see how a player does against the toughest competition.   College football has such a wide range of talent levels.   As you mentioned, gross stats, can be inflated by playing against a bunch of very poor defenses.  Just look at Penix.  Against a weak Texas defense he looked all world, but he came crashing down when he faced a much stronger Michigan defense.

I think it's also worth considering where a QB played.   It's a lot easier to throw a ball in good weather or indoors than it is in the wind and cold.  McCarthy is the only QB on the list who faced harsh weather conditions (the sort a Giants QB will see)

Quote from: files58 on February 14, 2024, 10:58:32 AMThey should take him at #6. Unfortunately Jones WILL get hurt again. If it's his neck he may be forced to retire. Sign a vet backup, and by midseason JJ will start.

Quote from: files58 on February 14, 2024, 10:58:32 AMThey should take him at #6. Unfortunately Jones WILL get hurt again. If it's his neck he may be forced to retire. Sign a vet backup, and by midseason JJ will start.

Quote from: katkavage on February 14, 2024, 11:47:26 AMNot to mention the fantasy that he will be ready before October.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 11:07:35 AMI have to think the Giants were guilty of gross negligence.  How could they sign Jones to that contract when they knew he was at higher risk of future neck injuries????

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 11:57:06 AMI don't think it's unrealistic to think that Jones might be able to start the regular season.  That said, there is no guarantee Jones will be ready.  Plus, even if he is ready to play, it's very unlikely his full athletism will have returned at that point.

Quote from: files58 on February 14, 2024, 01:48:20 PMWithout any empirical evidence, and based on past performance I firmly believe Jones' contract is 100% attributed to Mara. The two year out is a compromise to Schoen/Dabol.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 09:15:42 AMLarry,

Most of the external links (if not all of them) are not from Giants fans.  They are from the draftnik community.  Despite your suggestion of "desperation," they have nothing to be desperate about.  The reality is that many in this community have connections to NFL teams.  Now that McCarthy has declared, teams are taking a closer look at McCarthy, and they are liking what they see.  So word is leaking out how good NFL teams think McCarthy is.  I recently posted an article about the stats of all the QB prospects (a good read for the statistically oriented).  I found these stats most impressive. 

Quote from: Painter on February 14, 2024, 02:16:44 PMRich, you can't imagine that I was referring to anyone other than Giants fans, can you? Surely, you must know that, and also that there is no such thing as leaking among the pundits, experts and insiders, or the "draftnik community"- of how many hundreds?- except in service of an agenda. And for which accuracy is hardly more than an afterthought.

There is nothing wrong in that as long as we understand that it is we, individually, who cherry-pick from among them, whether attributed or not, in service of own agendas. Moreover, should we choose to promote or proselytize in favor of our agenda, that is our privilege.

The statistical data you have provided will be weighed and perhaps found useful by folks here as we must assume is already so by the team's own eventual Draft decision-makers. Unfortunately, we can do little more than guess that, if not second guess it, after the fact.

Perhaps, I should make clear that while I don't share the notion that the Giants should or will take McCarthy with their No.6 overall pick, should they do so, I will support the choice fully- full stop. If they decide that he will give them the most present or future value, then count me in. 

I must say, however that as I see more recent Silly Season QB scenarios beginning to undulate as to where and by whom Maye and Daniels may be taken, I can only think- so what's new? Certainly not our feelings of need, nor our impulsiveness, nor our naivete.

Cheers!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 14, 2024, 03:38:23 PMLarry,

If the Giants are interested in McCarthy (or perhaps one of the current elite 3 who might be pushed down by McCarthy) would you expect Joe to play it close to the vest and give no hints the Giants might be drafting a QB?

Quote from: Painter on February 14, 2024, 06:07:01 PMI have no way of knowing.

After all these years together, you still don't seem to get me, Rich. I have no interest in guessing what anyone else, up to and including Joe Schoen, might choose to do in any given situation or circumstance. It certainly doesn't matter to him what I might think he thinks about any of it.

While I will share my thinking, my preferences and choices, if asked and already have done so in this regard, I see nothing to be gained by "guessing" what someone else might do, which all too often leads to after-the-fact "second-guessing", a most distasteful activity in which to engage.

Although with a full appreciation of the daunting, often unpredictable, challenges faced by each and every team, every year, I think only of success and the pleasure of rooting. There is no guessing only hoping involved in that.

Certainly, I am not without fault especially when I fail to control my impatience with those I find to be insincere and/or a bit too self-absorbed, or little more than media lackies. Shame on me for that.

Cheers!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 08:34:52 AMLarry,

I think we both value knowledge and well-informed opinions.  I think where we differ is that you talk about fandom more seriously than I do.  You have your rules of how fans should think and behave.  I have an irreverent nature, and frankly, I appreciate at the end of the day, football is entertainment.  I believe the value of that entertainment comes not just from watching games but also from following and discussing the team-building process and the coaching decisions.  I don't have any rules in terms of what can and can't be discussed, and while I prefer opinions to be supported by facts and reason, I don't have any rules on how fans should partake in their fandom.  We all are fans of football and the Giants for enjoyment and whatever floats you boat.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 15, 2024, 07:33:11 PMNobody knows where NFL teams have this guy. Whether they have him in the top 5 or a late second round value is unknown. And we won't know until the draft.

Of course, click-bait artists and self-promoters on social media will continue to feed off of the gullible and confirmation-biased in the interim.

Enjoy!

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 07:56:22 PMCouldn't this be said of all the QBs being discussed?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 15, 2024, 08:03:03 PMYes, for sure.

I haven't seen 16 page threads about Bo Nix or Michael Penix though. Or any of the consensus top three prospects.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 15, 2024, 08:16:39 PMHow does consensus matter?  If you are going to be consistent, consensus among draftniks is no more meaningful than reports alleging how teams value a prospect

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 15, 2024, 08:27:53 PMMy point is simply that nobody has any clue where these QBs will get drafted. Yes, one can make an educated guess that will often be right, but tweets like "NFL teams have QB X or QB Y rated much higher than the fans do" are pure drivel that are sourced solely from the person writing them. Teams don't reveal what they think of draft prospects to anyone. Those discussions are airtight. Claims that an individual is "a lot higher on teams boards than people think" are meaningless. But anyone can believe whatever they want of course.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 15, 2024, 09:49:22 PMUnfortunately, JJ McCarthy is very difficult to get a good evaluation. It's not his fault. It was the system he was playing in where he wasn't asked to be the driver of that Offense. Sure, you can look at his mechanics and you can determine his other attributes but in very limited amount of snaps. Out of all the QB's in this draft he never stood out as a player who made huge throws or great eye popping plays.

He's going to need a team where he can sit and develop for at least one season.

There is a huge jump going from College to the NFL. He has the ability to work within a system and play in structure, so that's a big plus for him. He just hasn't been exposed to enough game situations to be a day one starter.

Perhaps he may be a good pick for the Giants since Daniel Jones will be the starter in 2024. But not at the number six pick. There are however a lot of teams looking for a QB and I don't see him falling to the second round.

There are three QBs in this draft that are at a level above the rest. That is Williams, Maye and Daniels. Those three are day one starters or close to it. Daniels will need a team where the Offense can be built around him. Same for Calib. Maye has the complete package and would thrive here in NY. Bo Nix has great talent too but even though he's the most experienced, he's a checkdowns QB too and misses opportunity downfield and when he runs, he loses sight of anything else. Penix unfortunately has that injury history. I would rule him and Daniels out for the Giants after their experience with Jones.

All of them will have an adjustment from working Under Center, to the difference in the Hash and where the ball is placed, to motion, to reading progressions, complex defenses and Clap to Cadence.

I have to say that I would be thrilled to get Maye or Daniels and if Williams gets past their mental toughness evaluation, he's a potential generational talent. I would be ok with Nix, Penix and McCarthy trading up from round two to mid first round.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 16, 2024, 10:50:28 AMEd - I actually think JJ is more NFL ready than either Williams, Maye or Daniels as he is world's ahead of them in the mental aspect of reading defenses, processing info quickly, going through progressions and making a throw.  I'd rather have him start day 1 than any of those three, however, I think the best course of action is to let all four sit for a bit and slowly get into games.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 16, 2024, 11:06:32 AMI am guessing that playing for Harbaugh is as good a prep for the NFL as any college QB has ever had. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 15, 2024, 07:33:11 PMNobody knows where NFL teams have this guy. Whether they have him in the top 5 or a late second round value is unknown. And we won't know until the draft.

Of course, click-bait artists and self-promoters on social media will continue to feed off of the gullible and confirmation-biased in the interim.

Enjoy!

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 16, 2024, 01:14:01 PMNo QB in this draft reads the defenses and progressions better than Drake Maye and he's the best most accurate deep passer too. His footwork will need consistency at the mext level.

No passer throws with greater touch and anticipation than Daniels and he's a legitimate comparison to Hurts and more of a scoring threat than Jackson. His arm is just adequate not great.

Williams is short and there have been many his size that have struggled at this level. Tua is an exception. He's not a pocket passer and is best moving.

You all can have your opinions about McCarthy. I didn't say he would fail, I said it's difficult to evaluate him. He averaged 22 passes a game... Twenty Two! Just wrap your heads around that. 22 touchdowns for an effective game manager.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 16, 2024, 01:38:57 PMTom Brady averaged 16.53 attempts per game his last 2 seasons at Michigan

Josh Allen had bit more than JJ,s  at 24.6 attempts per game and overall had less college attempts (655 to 714 for McCarthy)

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 16, 2024, 01:55:13 PMAll of the QB prospects have questions but I believe Maye and Daniels have more than Williams and Mccarthy.

Maye- Lost to any team that was even remotely good this past season and the ACC was way down. His footwork as, as well as his decision making and accuracy come into question when he doesn't have a perfect pocket. I also really question the offense that he played in. Longo his OC every year but this past year really dumbs down the playbook to the point that he only runs 6-8 plays a game and yes they put up volume or did but so did Sam Howell under Longo. In fact Mayes best and Howells best in NC are eerily similar. I just don't think Maye has the moxy, to lead a team, some give him Herbert as a comp and I think that's his ceiling but he could just be howell 2.0

Daniels- While he got better every single year it took year 5 and multiple elite weapons to put up the stats that he did. Has he already hit his ceiling? Ontop of that his processing and short/intermediate game still leave a lot to be desired.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 16, 2024, 02:11:06 PMadd in 92 rushing attempts for a dual threat QB. As for Brady, lighting can strike twice, I suppose.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 16, 2024, 03:02:21 PMI did some digging. Here are the 1st round college QBs with the least number of college attempts (compared to McCarthy's 714


https://x.com/NFL_Stats/status/1651561998218305575?s=20

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 16, 2024, 01:14:01 PMNo QB in this draft reads the defenses and progressions better than Drake Maye and he's the best most accurate deep passer too. His footwork will need consistency at the mext level.

No passer throws with greater touch and anticipation than Daniels and he's a legitimate comparison to Hurts and more of a scoring threat than Jackson. His arm is just adequate not great.

Williams is short and there have been many his size that have struggled at this level. Tua is an exception. He's not a pocket passer and is best moving.

You all can have your opinions about McCarthy. I didn't say he would fail, I said it's difficult to evaluate him. He averaged 22 passes a game... Twenty Two! Just wrap your heads around that. 22 touchdowns for an effective game manager.

Quote from: JT39 on February 16, 2024, 05:52:08 PMAnd they won every game and I am sure he stopped throwing in a lot of blowouts. Would you be throwing late in games with a lead or try to run the clock out?

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 16, 2024, 04:41:11 PMSince you're lobbying for McCarthy, which selection of QB's order do you see he should getting drafted? Better yet, why don't you slot the QB draft class and the round they should get picked if it's not the first round. Not the actual draft. Where you think they should fall.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 16, 2024, 07:25:31 PMA few points:

1)  I don't "lobby".  When I heard Tony Pauline knocking McCarthy, I posted the video and the summary of his comments on this thread.  I have a column on my Tweetdeck with a search for "JJ McCarthy."  I post any tweets I see on that feed on this thread.  What you see as lobbying is, in reality, that since McCarthy has declared, the sentiment towards him has been rising steadily.

2) I haven't done a deep dive on the top 3 because I have accepted the current conventional wisdom that they will be long gone by the time the Giants pick at 6 and I consider the massive talent deficit this team suffers as a major reason for this team not to trade up (untalented teams have a terrible track record developing QBs)

3) From the class to Greg Gabriel to all the former GMs I have listened to over the years, none of them suggest scouting by projecting where a player should or will be drafted; in fact, most preach against that.

4) These days, I have strayed from the more traditional scouting and scouting reports in favor of more of an approach of hiring a franchise QB.  I look for the traits that good to great NFL QBs have, and I consider the red flags or paths to failure they may have.  I study the stats beyond just yards and TDs.  I watch as much tape as I can find and scouting videos that have scouting breakdowns (so I can see if what they claim is what I see). 

5) If I have time this weekend, I may start doing a deep dive on Drake Maye.  With the momentum that I am seeing with McCarthy, it's quite possible that by the end of the Combine, McCarthy could potentially replace Maye in the top 3 tier.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 09:20:42 AMCome on Rich, you've been pushing this player and all in like you have been for Daniel Jones for years. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just that it creates 17 pages of argument.

Do you want to know why I think it's premature and unfair to judge this QB at this point after all the other reasons I gave? I'll lay it out for you but I will say that it's again premature until after the Combine where we will have more information and be able to have a more complete package.

JJ has some nice fundamental attributes that will serve him well and his age as you've said a few times, gives him the opportunity for a nice upside. He has good throwing mechanics and although he is athletic and can run, he's been coached to move within the pocket or outside it to give a play time to develop when the pocket collapses or for a Receiver to get open downfield. While going so however, he is the antithesis of Bo Nix. Nix will take the short open Receiver, while JJ will look to that mid to below deep range for the completion.

Still he has a good completion percentage because at that range he has the ability to fit a ball in tight spaces. However while doing this he can be inconsistent in his accuracy. Although he reads the field well and has good anticipation, he has a habit or tendency to lock on to his primary Receiver and at the next level, bird dogging or DJ'ing his Receiver it will lead to interceptions.

He has never been asked to be the Driver of that Offense but with him they win games because he has been an excellent Game Manager. That's not a slight, but at the next level, this is a passing league and very good to Elite QB's win Champions when Defenses raise their level of play. Michigan drives the ball on the ground and mixes in the passing game and it's worked well for them.

His Offensive Line was not as good at Pass Protection as the 2022 team and it's evident that although he's got nice pocket presence, he can fail at sensing a Defender closing in on him. Not that he's bad under pressure because he's good under pressure, it's just that at the next level, the pressure will result in turnovers, errant passes and sacks because he lacks a short game. He also lacks touch in that short game. Another DJ trait.

He has a good arm but not a great arm and his deep passes over 40 years drop off.

A lot of this is correctable or not. It's been five years and Daniel Jones still reverts. On the other hand other QB's have.

I remember that Maryland game and if you haven't watched it, I suggest you do so. It illustrates how he can be inconsistent. It was his worst game but it unfortunately sticks in my head. He burned bad teams but wasn't the driver against good teams. The exception was the Penn St. game. 8 attempts for 60 yards.

From what I've seen, I have Daniel Jones flashbacks where I felt he would be able to grow into an excellent QB. Even after the multiple turnovers his rookie season, his production was very good. Unfortunately when reigned in, he became exposed.

This is why I don't think it's fair to evaluate him based on all this. He needed to leave Michigan and go somewhere where he had a chance to develop and show what he could do. I think as a true Junior, he should have stayed one more year and in 2025 would have the chance to be the number two QB of that Draft and challenge Sanders for the Crown.

Instead he chose to move on because Harbaugh was leaving and he may have based his decision in that uncertainty. To me that's a potential Red Flag. Not a Red Flag, a potential one.

I would take a chance on him if he drops to the Mid First Round and trade the two Second Round picks to get him because of his age and his potential but most likely they won't have that opportunity. There are too many QB needy teams sitting there.

It's a shame because he could sit a year behind Jones and hopefully not be forced on the field too soon.

Based on everything I see, I would not pick him at six.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 17, 2024, 09:48:12 AMEd,

You laid out your opinion in great detail and I respect and appreciate that.  I am not going to try to dissuade you from the position.  I will note a couple of key differences in our views.

1)  I don't use the term game manager.   As Bill Polian said with a chuckle, every QB needs to be a game manager.   More to the point, it's about the abilities a QB shows when they have to throw the ball and how consistently they display those abilities when they throw the ball.  If they have the traits to be successful in the NFL, I consider how often they throw the ball a minor issue at best.

And he is a good game manager as I said. He can execute and direct the Rushing Attack and when he has to throw, not make costly errors to hurt his team.


2) A couple of pages back I posted a stat comparison between Daniel Jones and JJ McCarthy, those stats show they were not remotely the same QB.

I was pretty clear that the similarities were traits, not due to stats.

3) I see the acquisition of a franchise QB differently than you do.  If a QB prospect has a very good chance of being a franchise QB, and you need a franchise QB, then you draft him.  Considering the importance of the position picking your franchise QB 6 or 26 is pretty much meaningless.  Consider the Jets and the Steelers.  Both teams are unhappy with their drafted QB and it's not much a consultation that Pickett cost the Steelers a 20th pick and the Taylor cost the Jets a number 2.

I'm unconvinced that JJ McCarthy is the next savior of the NY Giants.That mistake was made with Jones when they reached for him. At this point from what I've seen, I'm not willing to do it. It remains to be seen if there is a team or if the Giants will Draft him top ten.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 09:20:42 AMCome on Rich, you've been pushing this player and all in like you have been for Daniel Jones for years. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just that it creates 17 pages of argument.

Do you want to know why I think it's premature and unfair to judge this QB at this point after all the other reasons I gave? I'll lay it out for you but I will say that it's again premature until after the Combine where we will have more information and be able to have a more complete package.

JJ has some nice fundamental attributes that will serve him well and his age as you've said a few times, gives him the opportunity for a nice upside. He has good throwing mechanics and although he is athletic and can run, he's been coached to move within the pocket or outside it to give a play time to develop when the pocket collapses or for a Receiver to get open downfield. While going so however, he is the antithesis of Bo Nix. Nix will take the short open Receiver, while JJ will look to that mid to below deep range for the completion.

Still he has a good completion percentage because at that range he has the ability to fit a ball in tight spaces. However while doing this he can be inconsistent in his accuracy. Although he reads the field well and has good anticipation, he has a habit or tendency to lock on to his primary Receiver and at the next level, bird dogging or DJ'ing his Receiver it will lead to interceptions.

He has never been asked to be the Driver of that Offense but with him they win games because he has been an excellent Game Manager. That's not a slight, but at the next level, this is a passing league and very good to Elite QB's win Champions when Defenses raise their level of play. Michigan drives the ball on the ground and mixes in the passing game and it's worked well for them.

His Offensive Line was not as good at Pass Protection as the 2022 team and it's evident that although he's got nice pocket presence, he can fail at sensing a Defender closing in on him. Not that he's bad under pressure because he's good under pressure, it's just that at the next level, the pressure will result in turnovers, errant passes and sacks because he lacks a short game. He also lacks touch in that short game. Another DJ trait.

He has a good arm but not a great arm and his deep passes over 40 years drop off.

A lot of this is correctable or not. It's been five years and Daniel Jones still reverts. On the other hand other QB's have.

I remember that Maryland game and if you haven't watched it, I suggest you do so. It illustrates how he can be inconsistent. It was his worst game but it unfortunately sticks in my head. He burned bad teams but wasn't the driver against good teams. The exception was the Penn St. game. 8 attempts for 60 yards.

From what I've seen, I have Daniel Jones flashbacks where I felt he would be able to grow into an excellent QB. Even after the multiple turnovers his rookie season, his production was very good. Unfortunately when reigned in, he became exposed.

This is why I don't think it's fair to evaluate him based on all this. He needed to leave Michigan and go somewhere where he had a chance to develop and show what he could do. I think as a true Junior, he should have stayed one more year and in 2025 would have the chance to be the number two QB of that Draft and challenge Sanders for the Crown.

Instead he chose to move on because Harbaugh was leaving and he may have based his decision in that uncertainty. To me that's a potential Red Flag. Not a Red Flag, a potential one.

I would take a chance on him if he drops to the Mid First Round and trade the two Second Round picks to get him because of his age and his potential but most likely they won't have that opportunity. There are too many QB needy teams sitting there.

It's a shame because he could sit a year behind Jones and hopefully not be forced on the field too soon.

Based on everything I see, I would not pick him at six.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 17, 2024, 09:59:57 AMHe did not need to leave Michigan.  That's a ridiculous comment.  His OC is now his head coach and his QB coach is now the OC.  Their TE coach is now the OL coach.  The RB and WR coaches are likely going to be the same guys.  On the offensive side of the ball, there is tremendous continuity.  Donovan Edward, their best pass catching RB is coming back.  So many other offensive players as well.  I think Michigan will be less successful in 2024 but it won't be because of the offensive side of the ball.  Jayden Daniels won the Heisman on a 3 loss LSU team.  JJ got advice from Harbaugh and the NFL about his draft stock being 1st round.  If they say you are in the 1st round, you leave for the NFL.  I am sure Harbaugh said, "JJ your stock will only go up once the NFL starts to see your tape and get you in a room." 

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 10:19:47 AMDon't mince my words and call them ridiculous. I said he may have chosen to leave based on uncertainty and a potential Red Flag. I also said he should have left Michigan for a more pass aggressive Offense. You don't know what's in his head either. You're another one who's all in on this kid and you don't see me cherry picking your posts... yet

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 10:19:47 AMDon't mince my words and call them ridiculous. I said he may have chosen to leave based on uncertainty and a potential Red Flag. I also said he should have left Michigan for a more pass aggressive Offense. You don't know what's in his head either. You're another one who's all in on this kid and you don't see me cherry picking your posts... yet

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 10:19:47 AMDon't mince my words and call them ridiculous. I said he may have chosen to leave based on uncertainty and a potential Red Flag. I also said he should have left Michigan for a more pass aggressive Offense. You don't know what's in his head either. You're another one who's all in on this kid and you don't see me cherry picking your posts... yet

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 17, 2024, 11:40:59 AMEd,

You seem just as strongly opposed to JJ at 6 as the people you say are all in on McCarthy support drafting him at 6. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 17, 2024, 12:23:06 PMJJ McCarthy All-22 Film Review vs. Michigan State

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 12:30:37 PMEverybody has a podcast and is a QB expert it seems. I'm waiting for the QB school to put his out.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 12:30:37 PMEverybody has a podcast and is a QB expert it seems. I'm waiting for the QB school to put his out.

Quote from: brownelvis54 on February 17, 2024, 01:16:43 PMFor the record, I have been a big fan of McCarthy since the beginning of the season, but ED is right. Anyone can have a podcast. I have been right and wrong on many players. It also helps to guess a lot and point out the guys you got right. This same video on McCarthy, this guy said Bryce Young was "the man"

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 17, 2024, 12:50:12 PMNot everyone has access to the all 22.  That is the value here

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on February 17, 2024, 06:21:14 PMThis quite laughable. Thread reaks of desperation to be correct - 18 pages for a draft project that might not even land on the Giants.

I guess those accusing others of hating on Jones for the last 11 months are getting out in front of the next bus really early. Good for them.

Although the same posters were telling us the future was sorted, and doing cartwheels, fewer than 12 months ago.

Still it's better to be first, than correct (apparently).

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on February 17, 2024, 06:21:14 PMThis quite laughable. Thread reaks of desperation to be correct - 18 pages for a draft project that might not even land on the Giants.

I guess those accusing others of hating on Jones for the last 11 months are getting out in front of the next bus really early. Good for them.

Although the same posters were telling us the future was sorted, and doing cartwheels, fewer than 12 months ago.

Still it's better to be first, than correct (apparently).

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 17, 2024, 07:05:33 PM😂 it's what we do, and the beat goes on...

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 01:33:08 AMNow why is there 19 pages about this guy and I see no threads on the main page about Daniels or drake??

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 01:33:08 AMNow why is there 19 pages about this guy and I see no threads on the main page about Daniels or drake??

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 01:33:08 AMNow why is there 19 pages about this guy and I see no threads on the main page about Daniels or drake??

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 07:31:21 AMCurrently, McDaniels is a QB the Giants could draft.   Neither Maye or Daniels seem likely to be there to draft at 6 and trading up is an ill-advised longshot

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 03:37:24 PMnot sure how trading up for either is ill advised?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 03:43:13 PMThe longshot part is that the teams drafting ahead of the Giants need quarterbacks.  So it's unlikely they pass on an elite prospect themselves.

The Giants are near the bottom of the league in talent.  One thing we have witnessed over and over again is teams lacking talent drafting a QB and the QB failing to develop (sort of hard to learn to play in the NFL, running for your life).   The draft capital that it would take to move up in the draft would mean the worst line in the league will pretty much stay one of the worst.  The receiver corp will not be upgraded; the RB room will decline with the departure of Barkley, and the DBs will diminish with the loss of McKinney and Jackson.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 18, 2024, 03:43:13 PMThe longshot part is that the teams drafting ahead of the Giants need quarterbacks.  So it's unlikely they pass on an elite prospect themselves.

The Giants are near the bottom of the league in talent.  One thing we have witnessed over and over again is teams lacking talent drafting a QB and the QB failing to develop (sort of hard to learn to play in the NFL, running for your life).   The draft capital that it would take to move up in the draft would mean the worst line in the league will pretty much stay one of the worst.  The receiver corp will not be upgraded; the RB room will decline with the departure of Barkley, and the DBs will diminish with the loss of McKinney and Jackson.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 04:24:22 PMOur only shot is Pats taking Marvin but I agree

We saw Tyrod basically look average with the same line as Tommy and DJ... I have faith in Daboll to develop a QB and if we have Saquon that can help the rookie. I truly think some fans are underestimating just how awful DJ was and how much Daboll had to scheme around him in order for things to work 2 years ago.

If we have the opportunity to take a franchise QB, you do it. Bottom line. Just because ewe may have a higher pick next year doesn't mean the QB class will be as strong as this one. If let's say Maye is somehow still there at #4, we must go for him.

I also do not think JJ is even in the same stratosphere as the other 3 so taking him in the 6-12 range and then ONCE AGAIN being forced to "Wait on him" for 4 year is the biggest disaster imo.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 18, 2024, 06:32:37 PMYou wouldn't have to wait as JJ is head shoulders above the rest in terms of plug n play while Maye, Daniels, and Williams will all likely need time to adjust and grow.

Does Mccarthy need reps, and time to grow, absolutely, but he's easily the most pro ready coming out of a pro style offense in college playing some of the best defenses in the country.

We wouldn't be waiting on Mccarthy, the kid has won at every level. The team would grow with him not be waiting on him as heads so far above the rest currently from a mental grasp of the game.

Quote from: T200 on February 18, 2024, 05:59:25 PMAre we truly devoid of talent or is the bigger problem developing and coaching what we have?

Every year players are drafted but aren't sufficiently developed and thus not re-signed. I don't understand how these players are talented enough to get drafted but then they become bums once they put on an NFL uniform?

The Giants have been abysmal when it comes to developing draft picks and I have a hard time not believing that it cuts their careers short.

The coaching has to be better for these players to show what they can do.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 07:01:08 PMyou REALLY just said JJ is head and shoulders above Caleb Williams?!

JJ has been handled his entire college career with baby gloves, just like Daniel Jones.

Now he is going to the NFL where he a below average athlete (worse than Jones in that regard), with a very very mediocre arm. He did play against tough competition, but he also had the best college football coach in the nation designing a system to limit his faults and mistakes.

We also don't need someone who is "most ready" to win now, we need the QB with the highest ceiling who can be a franchise QB for 10+ years.. does this team look ready to contend? lol

We do not need another guy who struggles with processing and can throw off his first read but not much else.


The point of a Brian Daboll is to get a guy with MASSIVE potential he can develop into a stud like Josh Allen, not a Jones/MCcarthy type where Daboll has to scheme and limit his genius to fit a player with limitations.

And just like Jones, this is a guy projected to be a late 1st-2nd round pick all of a sudden getting whispers he might sneak into the early first. NO thank you. I'd rather draft an Oline than get stuck with this guy for 4 years


I would 1000% prefer a guy like Caleb or Drake who's "weakness" is trying to keep plays going too long and make some miraculous throw, because you can develop around it.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 07:01:08 PMyou REALLY just said JJ is head and shoulders above Caleb Williams?!

JJ has been handled his entire college career with baby gloves, just like Daniel Jones.

Now he is going to the NFL where he a below average athlete (worse than Jones in that regard), with a very very mediocre arm. He did play against tough competition, but he also had the best college football coach in the nation designing a system to limit his faults and mistakes.

We also don't need someone who is "most ready" to win now, we need the QB with the highest ceiling who can be a franchise QB for 10+ years.. does this team look ready to contend? lol

We do not need another guy who struggles with processing and can throw off his first read but not much else.


The point of a Brian Daboll is to get a guy with MASSIVE potential he can develop into a stud like Josh Allen, not a Jones/MCcarthy type where Daboll has to scheme and limit his genius to fit a player with limitations.

And just like Jones, this is a guy projected to be a late 1st-2nd round pick all of a sudden getting whispers he might sneak into the early first. NO thank you. I'd rather draft an Oline than get stuck with this guy for 4 years


I would 1000% prefer a guy like Caleb or Drake who's "weakness" is trying to keep plays going too long and make some miraculous throw, because you can develop around it.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 18, 2024, 10:29:41 PMWho exactly are you to. One on this board
You have the audacity to challenge an esteemed member of this board who also happens to be a knowledgeable college football fanatic and someone who writes thoughtful posts here?

You registered on this board yesterday and posted what 16 times?  You offer nothing except what the pundits say which is nothing but lazy follow the herd mentality.  As they say in a surf lineup.  Work your way in rather than try to take the first wave.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 11:24:36 PMI realize now you are the biggest JJ McCarthy fan so I see why you feel personally attacked.

If that poster has an issue with my post they can discuss it, they don't need someone fighting battles for them.

I have seen JJ play and do not believe he would be successful with the Giants and the New York media. If we are all Giants fans, we should want what is best for the team not holding blind loyalty to someone for ego purposes.

Shall we get back to the discussion and not insults directed at posters for their opinions?

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 18, 2024, 07:01:08 PMyou REALLY just said JJ is head and shoulders above Caleb Williams?!

JJ has been handled his entire college career with baby gloves, just like Daniel Jones.

Now he is going to the NFL where he a below average athlete (worse than Jones in that regard), with a very very mediocre arm. He did play against tough competition, but he also had the best college football coach in the nation designing a system to limit his faults and mistakes.

We also don't need someone who is "most ready" to win now, we need the QB with the highest ceiling who can be a franchise QB for 10+ years.. does this team look ready to contend? lol

We do not need another guy who struggles with processing and can throw off his first read but not much else.


The point of a Brian Daboll is to get a guy with MASSIVE potential he can develop into a stud like Josh Allen, not a Jones/MCcarthy type where Daboll has to scheme and limit his genius to fit a player with limitations.

And just like Jones, this is a guy projected to be a late 1st-2nd round pick all of a sudden getting whispers he might sneak into the early first. NO thank you. I'd rather draft an Oline than get stuck with this guy for 4 years


I would 1000% prefer a guy like Caleb or Drake who's "weakness" is trying to keep plays going too long and make some miraculous throw, because you can develop around it.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 11:37:17 AMThere are three traits that I see a lot of disagreement when it comes to JJ.

1)  Arm Strength-  there are many who say that his arm is strong (plus arm talent, as well) while others claim it's mediocre or weak

2)  Athleticism-  There are many who say JJ is very athletic and some who claim he isn't

3) Processing-  There are some that say he is an elite level processor and others claim this is a weakness.

I have looked at quite a big of JJ's tape.  I think his arm is above average.  I think his athleticism is above average.  Processing is harder to see, but I am impressed how you can see him working out a solution while under pressure and scrambling.


Still, that's just my view on these issue.  I remember a former NFL scout/head of scouting has scouted this prospect.  Here was Greg Gabriel's trained eye on those three traits.

Arm- McCarthy has a tight overhand delivery and a very quick release. His arm strength is very good, and he consistently throws a tight ball. // McCarthy is just as effective deep as he is with short throws. He is also good at changing his arm angle when needed in order to get a throw off

Athleticism-  J.J. is very athletic and can run really well for a QB. He's not going to run in the 4.5s, but he looks as if he can easily run in the mid-4.6s, which is fast enough for the NFL. One of the strong points of his game is that he does a great job eluding pass rushers, can extend plays with his feet, and can cause defense problems with his running ability.

processing- He shows that he can go through a full progression and make good decisions. He seldom forces throws, and that is why his interception numbers have been low for the last two seasons. What I like is he can go from one to two to three and back to one before he releases the ball. He sees the field very well. What also stands out is his poise and patience in the pocket. He doesn't get rattled.

https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2024/2/4/24060710/breaking-down-michigan-quarterback-j-j-mccarthy-nfl-draft-quarterback-profile-prospect-projection

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 19, 2024, 08:05:45 AMI genuinely think you didn't read what I said. I said JJ was head and shoulders above the rest being NFL ready now.

Josh Allen had significantly worst stats than Mccarthy coming out so that's a bad example as is saying Mccarthy can't process, when he's got the best processing out of the draft able qbs.

I get you tried but JJ is nothing like Jones, it's a lazy comp when all the scouts are comping him with Joe Burrow.

Next time digest the info, do the research, and come back with something better.

Welcome to the board.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 08:01:17 AMWhy don't you consider taking a break for a bit and reading how we discuss topics here instead of coming in here swinging?  Many on this board including myself have been on this board for 15+ years and have a real respect for each other even when we disagree.

By the say, I have never said the Giants should draft McCarthy.  I said I think he's the most NFL ready.  Until the OL problem is solved, nobody in my opinion will be successful playing QB for the Giants.  We need better OL play and a stud WR1 unless Hyatt's route running become elite next year.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 03:40:26 PMAnd that's just not accurate when he's had a SYSTEM that babied him the entire time in college. Of course when someone has a coach like Harbaugh they will appear more "ready" than the guy who played for friggin UNC.

The Josh Allen referenece is that his CEILING is much higher than a guy like JJ's.

When you play with an AWARD WINNING offensive line for 2 years you better look incredible offesnively, and JJ merely looks competent. A =good majority of his passes were just dump off short routes or screen passes.

I have my opinion from what I've seen, I cannot think of a stupider pick than taking frigginn JJ McCarthy at 6. Right back at ya.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 19, 2024, 05:00:25 PMWell thankfully they are not taking your suggestions because those takes are horrible. He had a 90 pff grade, with no elite weapons but sure competent lol.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 06:06:04 PMThey clearly are taking those suggestinos assuming they don't draft JJ. And of course, I'm sure Drake Maye with his elite weapons at UNC had it far easier than... 5 star #1 in the country Michigan and their skill group.

This is absurd. You're acting as if JJ didnt have literally the perfect scenario around him to succeed and still produced mediocre to average numbers.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 06:06:04 PMThey clearly are taking those suggestinos assuming they don't draft JJ. And of course, I'm sure Drake Maye with his elite weapons at UNC had it far easier than... 5 star #1 in the country Michigan and their skill group.

This is absurd. You're acting as if JJ didnt have literally the perfect scenario around him to succeed and still produced mediocre to average numbers.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 06:06:04 PMThey clearly are taking those suggestinos assuming they don't draft JJ. And of course, I'm sure Drake Maye with his elite weapons at UNC had it far easier than... 5 star #1 in the country Michigan and their skill group.

This is absurd. You're acting as if JJ didnt have literally the perfect scenario around him to succeed and still produced mediocre to average numbers.

Quote from: T200 on February 19, 2024, 07:52:25 PMIs it possible that perfect scenario included mediocre to average numbers for McCarthy?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 19, 2024, 08:42:10 PMWhat? From those comments I'm going to just assume you don't know what you are talking about going forward.

Drake Maye had an elite offense in 2023, his offensive line led by Diego pounds and Tre Green were really really good, and his skill players were significantly better than Michigan's starting with 5 star Wr Tez Walker, the Jones, McCollum, and Nesbit. Not to mention their Rb Hamilton Tha went for 1500 yards.

NC skills trumped Michigan in Rushing and Receiving but sure stick with your narrative.

Michigan had a decent running game but no serious Wrs as Roman Wilson is nowhere the caliber Wr that Tez Walker is... so Michigan likely has a slight edge in Oline but UNC skills were better.

Through seven weeks, McCarthy currently ranked No. 2 nationally in completion percentage (.782), as well as No. 2 nationally in passing efficiency (195.92). He's also the most effective quarterback in the country when it comes to moving the sticks on third down through the air at 73.1% while Drake Maye (52.3%) and Daniels (50%) lagged significantly behind. At that point in the season he had 213 drives of which he scored on 130, 34 field goals and 96 touchdowns, which means he scored on 61% of all drives.

His 88.3 QBR was 3rd in the country despite NOT PLAYING A FULL GAME until week 9. Before week 9 he sat half way through games, had he played every quarter of every game like the other Qbs he would have easily surpassed Drake Mayes yardage and likely Williams. But you know let's not focus on details, let's just watch a random YouTube video and assume instead of actually looking at the numbers. Because for some reason 3,000 yards, 22Td 4Int while sitting at halftime if most games and having a 27-1 record in college is mediocre to you.

But sure whatever you think.

https://www.si.com/college/michigan/football/michigan-wolverines-football-big-ten-jim-harbaugh-jj-mccarthy-michael-penix-bo-nix-drake-maye

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 09:27:19 PMthey won the championship so it was a "perfect scenario" well done to Jim.

But when you have the best defense, run game and offensive line in the country AND you're not relying on a QB to produce real numbers, it's not that impressive. Tommy DeVito could probably have won a championship with this Michigan team.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 03:42:36 PMOh so now I'm the one who come out swinging?

Last I checked, you threw out personal attacks my way when your name wasn't even mentioned trying to fight someone else's battle. Don't talk about respect when you came at me first for no reason when you couldn't debate things in a respectful manner. Gaslighting.

And again, we already saw Tyrod have significantly stronger play with the same OLine than either Tommy or Jones did. The OLine while a problem is not the main concern, it is getting the right franchise QB.

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 19, 2024, 10:53:06 PMJones did not play with the same Oline as either TT or TD.  Check out the snap counts during the early part of the season and you'll see stalwarts such as McKethan, Ezeudu,Lemieux playing significant minutes. It wasn't until game 9 when Thomas returned and Philips replaced the injured Neal that the line began to look somewhat competent.  Pretty much the same 5 each game for balance of season

Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 10:31:41 PMHave you spent any time in Michigan in mid-late October/November?  Wet, muddy or snowy and cold.  Conducive to a running game.  The weather dictated some of that.  Why would you throw 45 times in a game when you don't have to?

Williams had to throw 45 times per game because USC's defense could not stop anyone so Lincoln Riley had to dial up passing game to score 50 points.  Michigan's D never had that problem. 

There's a difference between not being able to do something and not having to.

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 19, 2024, 10:53:06 PMJones did not play with the same Oline as either TT or TD.  Check out the snap counts during the early part of the season and you'll see stalwarts such as McKethan, Ezeudu,Lemieux playing significant minutes. It wasn't until game 9 when Thomas returned and Philips replaced the injured Neal that the line began to look somewhat competent.  Pretty much the same 5 each game for balance of season

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 09:27:19 PMthey won the championship so it was a "perfect scenario" well done to Jim.

But when you have the best defense, run game and offensive line in the country AND you're not relying on a QB to produce real numbers, it's not that impressive. Tommy DeVito could probably have won a championship with this Michigan team.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 11:08:40 PMthat doesn't change fact he was responsible for 32% of his sacks (2nd most in the league) according to PFF. That 1 in 3.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 08:18:27 AMCan we circle back to JJ McCarthy.  That is the purpose of this thread

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 20, 2024, 08:32:55 AMI posted the video here from yesterday and while I don't like the chat sports guy there is a ton of smoke around the Giants and Mccarthy currently. Enough to were a 21 page thread on him makes sense. A lot of people think the Giants have him as the #2 Qb in the draft.

Also noticed with the new mocks that Maye is falling, while Daniels and Mccarthy are rising.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 08:45:29 AMHere are the PFF grades for receiving and pass blocking for the top prospects (team grades)



Name  ...  Pass Block ... Receiving

Williams ... 77.4 ... 82.4
Maye ... 72.3 ... 72.2
Daniels ... 80.5 ... 84.6
McCarthy ... 70.3 ... 86.2
Nix ... 91.4 ... 89.3
Penix ... 78.4 ... 89.7

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 09:00:00 AMRich: Do you view the above as a good thing or a bad thing (regarding McCarthy vs. the other QB's shown)? Bob

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on February 02, 2024, 11:49:47 AM"Second-round grade" (as Brugler notes) taken at #6 overall... recipe for disaster for the kid and the franchise.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 19, 2024, 11:09:53 PMSame question to you, given Michigan had THE best defense, run game and Oline in the country, do you believe Drake Maye would have better stats than JJ McCarthy had at Michigan? Daniels too.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 09:25:33 AMIn less than 3 weeks, it went from "second-round grade" (from Brugler) to 24th overall prospect and


24 J.J. McCarthy
QB
MICHIGAN
Height:
6-3
Weight:
196
Class:
Jr.

No, the Michigan offense didn't regularly lean on McCarthy to push the ball downfield with his arm. But McCarthy executed when his team needed a play, which often came on third or fourth down. He has the arm and athletic talent that will translate well to the pro game, and his intangibles are off the charts.

Many roll their eyes at win-loss records for quarterbacks, but NFL teams care about that stat, and McCarthy finished 27-1 as a starter at Michigan with a national championship. (He also went 36-2 in high school and won a state title.)

Although McCarthy is far from a polished product, it is easy to see why an NFL team would spend a first-round pick to invest in his future.

https://theathletic.com/5270481/2024/02/13/nfl-draft-2024-prospect-rankings-top-100/

Quote from: kingm56 on February 20, 2024, 07:31:39 AMDo you believe QB play/ability impacts the line performance, or is only reverse true?

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on February 20, 2024, 10:34:21 AMTo some extent it can but it's my belief that a team cannot hope to be good without an adequate line.  Can you run the ball when everyone knows you're going to? Can you protect when everyone knows you're throwing?  The Giants line has come up woefully short in these areas far too long. IMO

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 09:08:25 AMit's pretty clear that McCarthy's production was not inflated (compared to the other QBs) in terms of support and opposition faced; if anything, he had to work harder.

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 12:39:10 PMRich: That was my conclusion. He was peddling uphill, not to the extent Jones did at Duke, but it was still uphill.

If anything, there is a strong possibility he was actually held back a bit by the combination of having had a very strong run-game, combined with having a head coach who values the college run-game as of the utmost importance, especially in big games against the best teams.

I'm warming to McCarthy a bit. More importantly, I can almost guarantee Mara would love to have an Irishman (if not an actual "Fighting Irish"-man lol) as the QB of his team.

So IMO it's likely there's some truth behind the idea that the Giants are interested in drafting McCarthy.

Beware: if they do take him without first trading down in round one, there will be howls in certain quarters of the media (and probably here too) about how the same thing happened with Jones (most people felt they could have gotten Jones a whole lot lower and should have risked a trade down).

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 12:39:10 PMRich: That was my conclusion. He was peddling uphill, not to the extent Jones did at Duke, but it was still uphill.

If anything, there is a strong possibility he was actually held back a bit by the combination of having had a very strong run-game, combined with having a head coach who values the college run-game as being of the utmost importance, especially in big games against the best teams.

I'm warming to McCarthy a bit. More importantly, I can almost guarantee Mara would love to have an Irishman (if not an actual "Fighting Irish"-man lol) as the QB of his team.

So IMO it's likely there's some truth behind the idea that the Giants are interested in drafting McCarthy.

Beware: if they do take him without first trading down in round one, there will be howls in certain quarters of the media (and probably here too) about how the same thing happened with Jones (most people felt they could have gotten Jones a whole lot lower and should have risked a trade down).

Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 12:43:03 PMBob,

I remember Phil Simms once talked about the challenges of being a "game manager."  Fans seem to think being a game manager is easy.  Phil Simms pointed out that it's actually much harder.  He made two main points on why it's harder:

1)  It's easier for QBs to throw on first and second down compared to 3rd down (or 4th down).  Game managers tend to throw more passes on third downs than other QBs.

2) Game mangers tend not to throw as many passes.  So when they do through, they have less room for error.  When you are passing like the mad bomber if you miss on a throw it's no big deal; you get them next time.  Once your opportunities are limited there isn't a lot of room for error on any given pass.

Quote from: nb587 on February 20, 2024, 12:52:33 PMBob- I hope you are totally wrong about Mara and wanting an Irishman.  Please say that you are joking.  I'm guessing that Schoen will run his choice by Mara but the only part of the draft I want Mara to be involved is having his picture taken and writing a check.

To your point about JJ being held back by his coach, the flip side of that is that being that Harbaugh was a QB, and possibly or probably a QB coach somewhere in his resume, and JJ was taught how to throw correctly and whatever flaws he may have had, were coached out of him. 

As an aside, with 2 months before the draft and the all of the work that goes into the selection, combines, pro days, meetings, etc, the level of specificity that people are showing about the players and where they are taken is way overboard and borderline comical. 

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 20, 2024, 12:55:57 PMRich: Agree 100 percent again. Some of that is on the coaching staff.  I guy doesn't come to the NFL to be a game manager.  Some coaches (for various reasons, including lack of complete faith in the QB and predisposition to take the conservative approach to winning) are at least partially responsible (if not fully responsible) for a guy being tagged with the game manager role (as opposed to the "gunslinger" style). Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 20, 2024, 01:19:50 PMIt's been traced back to the great college FB coach Darrell Royal with the following quote.  "Three Things Can Happen When You Pass, and Two of Them Are Bad."

Now, you could further add that running the ball tends to help the defense because it reduces the amount of time the defense needs to be on the field.

The NFL has become a passing league, owing a great deal to rule changes.  Yet, in these playoffs, many of the games were won by QBs playing a game-manager role rather than this QB putting up big numbers.

Consider the winners in the SB, Conference, and Division games and how often the winning QB put up 300+ yards

Super Bowl- Mahomes 333 yards (but this was done in 5 quarters rather than the usual 4

Conference

AFC- Mahomes 241 yards
NFC- Purdy 267 yards

Division

Balt- Jackson 152 yards
KC- Mahomes 215 yards
49ers- Purdy 252 yards
Lions- Goff 287

So you can see in the playoffs, even with some of the best QBs available, coaches opted to put them in a game manager role.


I say all that to support my assertion that all things being equal, most HCs still favor running over passing.

Quote from: T200 on February 20, 2024, 07:53:50 AMIf you feel that it's not that impressive, why knock him for his lack of stellar statistics when it appears his productivity was limited by design?

For the record, I don't follow college football, so this time of the year leading up to the draft, I rely on the BBH community for insight on the draft picks. Now, I did watch the championship game and felt JJ played a very good game, much better than Penix.

I tend to agree with you that athletically, Jones and McCarthy are similar, and I'd actually give Jones the edge because of his legs. But mentally, I feel like Jones is shot. I think McCarthy has a distinct advantage because of the coaching he received from Harbaugh, playing in a pro-style offense, and he isn't shell-shocked like Jones is.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on February 20, 2024, 04:06:42 PMbecause there is a reason his production was limited by design. The coaching staff did not trust him enough to play anything other than a conservative game plan. that is the antithesis of what a coach like DAboll can do for a team. We want a guy like Maye or Caleb who's problem was taking TOO MANY chances in college like Josh Allen did

Quote from: T200 on February 20, 2024, 08:29:07 PMI think that's more in line with your personal viewpoint, not so much fact.

I trust Schoen and Daboll to pick the guy they think and feel will be the best QB to build around for the Giants. If it turns out to be JJ McCarthy, I will root just like I did for Jones. Unless and until...

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 21, 2024, 01:23:56 PMhttps://x.com/JamesPalmerTV/status/1760365501530657072?s=20

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 21, 2024, 01:45:14 PMAnd if the comp for McCarthy is Herbert, then I guess the next question is, "is that a good thing?"

I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Herbert has "flourished" in the NFL. Herbert has been a chronic underachiever, achieving a sub-.500 record (30-32) in 4 years and having led his team to the playoffs once - a first-round loss.

He has not picked his team up on his back and brought them over the hump. Which is one of the primary concerns with McCarthy, as well. He was not asked to do that in college, so how can we be confident he can do that against much better players?

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 21, 2024, 01:48:51 PMOne of the things we don't need to wonder about with JJ McCarthy is if he is a winner or not.   JJ has done nothing but win since he put in a helmet in HS.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 21, 2024, 01:48:51 PMI think Herbert is the poster boy disputing the idea that drafting a really good QB will change your team's fortunes.   You're correct. The Chargers have done poorly since drafting Herbert, and the Giants actually have more playoff teams in their first 4 years with Jones than the Chargers with Herbert.

Where things get muddy is that while the team has performed poorly, Herbert has put up impressive stats.   So one wonders if Herbert is like Cousins, a QB who will put up great stats but not lead his team to victory, or is Herbert simply the victim of being drafted by a poorly run team?   

One of the things we don't need to wonder about with JJ McCarthy is if he is a winner or not.   JJ has done nothing but win since he put in a helmet in HS.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 23, 2024, 09:11:47 AMIf McCarthy is moving up as it appears, he would be a good pick for the Giants at six because he will sit up to a year since DJ will play in 2024. If they feel he will be there after ten they could trade back but since there are so many teams needing a QB, that's not likely. If Daniels is there at six, they have to take him. If Maye is there at six, they have to take him. I don't think they will.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 23, 2024, 10:31:31 AMHypothetical, You can get your choice of Odunze or Nabers and then trade our 2025 1st and our 2nd, 2nd rd pick plus maybe some conditionsls to move back into the top 10 to grab Mccarthy would you be on board with something like that? I think schoen and Daboll have to make a splash and I think that would be my ideal splash

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 23, 2024, 11:12:50 AMNo, too much sacrifice to nab a top Receiver when the position is deep. I wouldn't take a chance on a QB. They can't carry Jones another year. With that Oline, I wouldn't be surprised if the wait and pick Bo Nix. Let's see what the Combine looks like. 

Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 23, 2024, 01:04:08 PMYeah after his senior bowl outing though he may be at a new low.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 23, 2024, 07:07:46 PMZierlein on McCarthy:

Overview

Enigmatic quarterback lacking the measurables and splash throws associated with early round quarterbacks but possessing elements that require more study and consideration. McCarthy lacks frame thickness and a plus arm. He's fairly poised in the pocket but is average as a pocket passer. His ball placement and timing need to improve to help mitigate an average operation time due to a windup release. McCarthy doesn't seek to play out of structure but is fairly consistent at making positive plays when it happens and ramps up his focus late in games and on third downs. He is confident and seems to have the ability to take slights and digest it as competitive fuel. McCarthy should continue to improve as a passer, but he fails to stand out in many of the areas that tend to be predictive of top-level success in the NFL.


Here is the full write-up:

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/j.j.-mccarthy/32004d43-4318-9531-b3f5-120a14383239


I'll leave it up to everyone here to decide if this sounds like a player you'd take with the 6th pick in the draft.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 23, 2024, 07:07:46 PMZierlein on McCarthy:

Overview

Enigmatic quarterback lacking the measurables and splash throws associated with early round quarterbacks but possessing elements that require more study and consideration.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 08:40:27 AMI will start off that I share Jeff's take on Lance Zerliene.  I consider him a safe basic scout that gives pretty good, but nothing exciting reports.

That said, if I were a GM and this was the scouting report Lance handed me, he would get it returned to him to do another one and, this time, do it right (or find another line of work).

"Enigmatic"?  That has no place in a proper scouting report.  It's your F***ing job to solve those puzzles

"lacking the measurables."  We haven't even had the measurables from the Combine, so what the hell is he even talking about?

"splash throws"  One is looking for traits that translate well to the NFL, "slash throws" is not a trait.

"require more study and consideration"  Are you seriously handing your your scouting report with the clear statement that you didn't put in the work needed to properly assess the prospect? SERIOUSLY?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 08:51:54 AMGood points.

My biggest concern with McCarthy is that, in the biggest games against the toughest opponents, Jim Harbaugh, who understands the QB position as well as anyone, chose to gameplan around him rather than making him the linchpin of the offense. He did not do that with Andrew Luck in Stanford, and I don't think you'll see him do it with Justin Herbert in LA.

That doesn't mean McCarthy definitely won't be good. But it makes me very leery about taking someone with that fact pattern 6th overall.

Quote from: JT39 on February 24, 2024, 08:56:11 AMTheir game plan was the same all year. Control the ball, dominate with defense, and let JJ make plays when needed. Game plan seemed pretty successful to me.

When Corum got hurt last year - McCarthy carried them against Ohio State. He had 8 TDs against Ohio State and TCU. Even with a couple mistakes littered in - there were times when he needed McCarthy to carry the. - and for the most part - he did.

This notion that Harbaugh took the ball out of his hands and didn't trust him is pure lunacy.

And remember against PSU and Maryland - he was playing with a severe high ankle sprain. To the point where he wasn't suppose to play.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 08:51:54 AMGood points.

My biggest concern with McCarthy is that, in the biggest games against the toughest opponents, Jim Harbaugh, who understands the QB position as well as anyone, chose to gameplan around him rather than making him the linchpin of the offense. He did not do that with Andrew Luck in Stanford, and I don't think you'll see him do it with Justin Herbert in LA.

That doesn't mean McCarthy definitely won't be good. But it makes me very leery about taking someone with that fact pattern 6th overall.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 09:14:28 AMI am curious why we would go back to 2010 and Andrew Luck rather than look at the nature of the Michigan offense prior to JJ becoming the starter, especially as the Pac-10 had notoriously poor defenses compared to the Big-10.

Still,  since the point was raised.

Andrew Luck (two seasons under Harbaugh)

288 attempts and 372 attempts

JJ McCarthy (two seasons as a starter under Harbaugh)

332 attempts and 322 attempts

I do not see a glaring difference.

I see issues with McCarthy (as I do all prospects).  That said, some issues I find have questionable value, including the idea that Harbaugh had to scheme around JJ McCarthy.  First off, Harbaugh has made it pretty clear in his statements that he did not scheme around his 5-star QB recruit.  Second, Michigan was a very talented team, especially in terms of being able to run the ball (and run block), and had a great defense.  Most coaches, if given their choice, would prefer to run the ball on offense.  It's safer, it wears down opposing defenses, and it wins the critical time of possession (which helps your defense).  Considering that the team was undefeated and the national championship, I find it hard to believe claims that Harbaugh had no choice "but to scheme around his weak QB" rather than running the ball successfully and using his skilled QB to keep drives going and score when they needed it.'

Oh, and as I suggested (I had already done this).  Michigan didn't suddenly become a run heavy team when McCarthy took over, that was their characteristic well before McCarthy became the starter.

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 24, 2024, 03:26:19 PMThis Tweet is quite interesting.  @DaveBrown74 this seems to address your attempts issue

NFL Draft Files
@NFL_DF
JJ McCarthy's passing attempts were so low only because of how DOMINANT he and Michigan were in 2023.

2024 Draft QBs first half passing attempts, excluding screens:
• JJ McCarthy - 199
• Drake Maye - 194
• Jayden Daniels - 184
• Caleb Williams - 167

His attempts tapered in second halves because Michigan had a 21 point+ lead in 11 of their games this season. JJ McCarthy didn't even play in seven 4th quarters (
@BGWhitefield
).

The "they didn't let him throw" narrative needs to be put to rest immediately.

Hate all you want, the numbers with context DO NOT LIE.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 04:24:45 PMI'm more focused on the big games he played against top competition, not the season in its totality. That he threw a lot in the first half of the game against someone like Rutgers or Northwestern and then didn't throw much in the second half makes sense. No issues there.

My concern lies more with Harbaugh's lack of use of the passing game in the four toughest games they played all season: Washington, Alabama, PSU, and OSU. Those were their four games against top 10 teams, and McCarthy had 73 attempts in those four games (about 18 per on average). Moreover his passing yardage was pretty low in those four games (average of 117 passing yards per game). So about 6.5 YPA in those games with not many attempts. To me that's the concern here. I don't care as much what he did against the East Carolinas, UNLVs, and Bowling Greens of the world.

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 24, 2024, 04:44:34 PMGood stuff, Dave. And absolutely valid. Not exactly sure why these very logical thoughts are considered "hate" or "need to be put to rest".

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 04:24:45 PMI'm more focused on the big games he played against top competition, not the season in its totality. That he threw a lot in the first half of the game against someone like Rutgers or Northwestern and then didn't throw much in the second half makes sense. No issues there.

My concern lies more with Harbaugh's lack of use of the passing game in the four toughest games they played all season: Washington, Alabama, PSU, and OSU. Those were their four games against top 10 teams, and McCarthy had 73 attempts in those four games (about 18 per on average). Moreover his passing yardage was pretty low in those four games (average of 117 passing yards per game). So about 6.5 YPA in those games with not many attempts. To me that's the concern here. I don't care as much what he did against the East Carolinas, UNLVs, and Bowling Greens of the world.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 24, 2024, 04:24:45 PMI'm more focused on the big games he played against top competition, not the season in its totality.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 25, 2024, 09:27:01 AMIn Michigan's four toughest games here are their rushing stats.

Penn St - 46 rushes for 227 yards
Ohio State - 39 rushes for 156 yards
Alabama - 32 rushes for 130 yards
Washington - 38 rushes for 303 yards

Michigan did not have to throw it 40 times to win those games.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 25, 2024, 02:04:41 PMI totally get that. It speaks to how good their running game was and how it was the key to their success against the best teams. What it doesn't necessarily do is support the argument that McCarthy is a great pick at 6th overall.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 25, 2024, 02:04:41 PMI totally get that. It speaks to how good their running game was and how it was the key to their success against the best teams. What it doesn't necessarily do is support the argument that McCarthy is a great pick at 6th overall.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 25, 2024, 05:45:44 PMDave - my suggestion would be to instead of defining greatness by volume, do it based on what he did throw.  Do you like his decisions, his reads, his throws, his choices to run vs pass or vice versa? 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 02:46:33 PMFrom what I have observed, I would say yes for the most part. I wouldn't necessarily say he has blown me away though.

As I have said numerous times, I'm totally open to the fact that he may end up being good, very good, or possibly even great. I just personally struggle to get fully on board with using the sixth pick in the draft on a QB who for the most part was gameplanned around by a highly knowledgeable and competent head coach in their four toughest games of the season.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 06:12:24 PMWhat makes you think Michigan gameplanned around him?  Maybe Harbaugh simply likes to run the ball as his established form of offensive identity.  He has repeatedly said that nothing deflates a defense more than an offense running on them.  Michigan ran on everybody and passed aggressively when they did especially with play action.

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 17, 2024, 02:59:53 AMA great video explaining everything wrong with this guy. How he has 26 pages of nonsense on him is beyond me. DO NOT DRAFT THIS BUST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I621PS3WS50

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 17, 2024, 02:59:53 AMA great video explaining everything wrong with this guy. How he has 26 pages of nonsense on him is beyond me. DO NOT DRAFT THIS BUST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I621PS3WS50

Quote from: JT39 on March 17, 2024, 09:03:54 AM26 pages of nonsense?

Very mature repsonse

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 17, 2024, 08:48:14 AMI am curious: what are Alex Rollins' qualifications?  Why should we listen to his opinions?

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 09:10:39 AMIn watching it, I think his description of what he sees is actually pretty good but it's the premise that showing a few misreads (even when huge plays occur) shows an inadequacy in a player is odd as a tape of mistakes can be made on every player.

It's the totality that ultimately matters.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 09:10:39 AMIn watching it, I think his description of what he sees is actually pretty good but it's the premise that showing a few misreads (even when huge plays occur) shows an inadequacy in a player is odd as a tape of mistakes can be made on every player.

It's the totality that ultimately matters.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 17, 2024, 10:04:19 AMEvery evaluation podcast does that whether it's pro or con. It's clear the person knows his xxxx, it's just limited to a few plays so it fits his narrative. It's up to the viewer to look into it further or to form an opinion off a body of work. It's good to have both posted in my opinion. Otherwise the site is viewed as slanted. Especially if one member is pushing a narrative incessantly. Thus the high amount of pages.

That's why I limit what I post to mostly what I have observed and my opinion. In the case of JJ McCarthy it's been the limited amount of film, working behind an outstanding Rushing Attack and the lack of pressure he faced, balanced with the fact that he was a winner, he played under a great Coach in a Pro Style offense, has plenty of arm and is mobile. It is clear however even according to Phil Simms, that he will need to be brought along and not start right away. He even said that he doesn't see him as a top ten pick.
No matter where he gets drafted, some here will gloat and take a victory lap. How JJ ultimately performs after a few years will be the true test. Look at Daniel Jones... he's still given a lifeline and supported by a GM who appears to have put his reputation on the line if he passes on a QB in the first two rounds.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 17, 2024, 10:09:34 AMEd,

You gave the people who recognized that McCarthy was a top-10 prospect a lot of grief.  Instead of acknowledging that maybe the negative comments were misguided, now you are accusing them of "gloating" and taking "victory laps" when they point out that they were proven correct.

It wouldn't hurt to simply acknowledge that some people recognized JJ's talent very early on in the process and that maybe giving them grief for doing so was ill-advised.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 17, 2024, 10:18:49 AMNobody is proven correct Rich. Do I need to repeat myself that it will take years to see who is correct. And again you put me in a position to provide balance here. You've done the same thing with Jones the last five years. Btw, why is it so important for you to be right that you jump on every post contrary to your opinion. Yes, it's an opinion because you're a fan just like everyone else here.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 17, 2024, 10:27:54 AMHow can anyone be "right" or "wrong" about a player who hasn't even been drafted yet, let alone set foot on an NFL field even once?

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 17, 2024, 10:24:39 AMThere was nothing extreme about saying JJ was top ten talent.  So there was absolutely no need for you to "provide balance".   As for jumping on contrary opinions, just look how you went after people for saying JJ was top 10.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 17, 2024, 10:27:54 AMHow can anyone be "right" or "wrong" about a player who hasn't even been drafted yet, let alone set foot on an NFL field even once?

Quote from: JT39 on March 17, 2024, 10:31:09 AMThe same way people proclaiming he is a bust even before even being drafted haha

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 17, 2024, 10:36:15 AMHow many posts have you put up pushing JJ McCarthy, Rich? Dozens and dozens.

I see you even started another Daniel Jones thread defending him.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 17, 2024, 10:44:29 AM"Pushing JJ McCarthy"  Seriously?

This thread posed a question.   There are probably a dozen or so posts on this thread that provide evidence that leads to the conclusion that he is a top-ten prospect.   

As for Daniel Jones, you and other strong critics declared yourselves right because injuries are putting a premature end to his career.  I am not sure what that has to do with the grief you gave people on this thread.

Despite your harsh and extreme claims to the contrary, I am not clueless about QBs.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 17, 2024, 09:07:31 AMThe funny thing is, Drake maye might actually be the closest prospect to Daniel Jones since Daniel Jones.

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 15, 2024, 09:49:22 PMUnfortunately, JJ McCarthy is very difficult to get a good evaluation. It's not his fault. It was the system he was playing in where he wasn't asked to be the driver of that Offense. Sure, you can look at his mechanics and you can determine his other attributes but in very limited amount of snaps. Out of all the QB's in this draft he never stood out as a player who made huge throws or great eye popping plays.

He's going to need a team where he can sit and develop for at least one season.

There is a huge jump going from College to the NFL. He has the ability to work within a system and play in structure, so that's a big plus for him. He just hasn't been exposed to enough game situations to be a day one starter.

Perhaps he may be a good pick for the Giants since Daniel Jones will be the starter in 2024. But not at the number six pick. There are however a lot of teams looking for a QB and I don't see him falling to the second round.

There are three QBs in this draft that are at a level above the rest. That is Williams, Maye and Daniels. Those three are day one starters or close to it. Daniels will need a team where the Offense can be built around him. Same for Calib. Maye has the complete package and would thrive here in NY. Bo Nix has great talent too but even though he's the most experienced, he's a checkdowns QB too and misses opportunity downfield and when he runs, he loses sight of anything else. Penix unfortunately has that injury history. I would rule him and Daniels out for the Giants after their experience with Jones.

All of them will have an adjustment from working Under Center, to the difference in the Hash and where the ball is placed, to motion, to reading progressions, complex defenses and Clap to Cadence.

I have to say that I would be thrilled to get Maye or Daniels and if Williams gets past their mental toughness evaluation, he's a potential generational talent. I would be ok with Nix, Penix and McCarthy trading up from round two to mid first round.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 11:24:21 AMNone of these QBs are a sure thing.  None.  QBs with good intangibles may end up not being stars but their risk is being average.  QBs with questionable intangibles risk being busts.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 11:24:21 AMNone of these QBs are a sure thing.  None.  QBs with good intangibles may end up not being stars but their risk is being average.  QBs with questionable intangibles risk being busts.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 09:10:39 AMIn watching it, I think his description of what he sees is actually pretty good but it's the premise that showing a few misreads (even when huge plays occur) shows an inadequacy in a player is odd as a tape of mistakes can be made on every player.

It's the totality that ultimately matters.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on March 17, 2024, 11:38:07 AM(https://i.postimg.cc/SKyrVS3x/Franchise-QB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMN7gr3k)

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 08:04:35 AMYou can put a film study like that on every QB and every player.  They all make mistakes in a game so highlighting it offers nothing.  Do you think Caleb Williams does not ever miss a read or not focus one place when he should throw somewhere else.  Of course he soes.  What's great about that video is that even on plays where he could have gone to one player and threw it or ran it, he still made a big play.

Quote from: JT39 on March 17, 2024, 09:03:54 AM26 pages of nonsense?

Very mature repsonse

Quote from: EliWasrobbed on March 17, 2024, 03:14:08 PMok confirmed you are a JJ guy instead of Drake, makes sense now

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 05:27:11 PMGiven that JJ is the most polarizing prospect in this board, I probably hope the Giants don't draft him. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 17, 2024, 05:30:11 PMIf he's good, I don't know why a little pre-draft controversy will matter. I'm sure Texans fans had some disagreements about Stroud last spring/summer. I doubt they do now.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 05:50:19 PMConclusions here are formed by many.

Stroud had nowhere near the doubt.

Happy to get Nabers and go from there.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 05:27:11 PMGiven that JJ is the most polarizing prospect in this board, I probably hope the Giants don't draft him. 

Quote from: y_so_blu on March 17, 2024, 06:15:41 PMThis board could polarize itself over how to hang toilet paper.

McCarthy is much more promising than anything we have now at QB, and I'll be excited if we get him.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 17, 2024, 05:27:11 PMGiven that JJ is the most polarizing prospect in this board, I probably hope the Giants don't draft him. 

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on March 17, 2024, 11:38:07 AM(https://i.postimg.cc/SKyrVS3x/Franchise-QB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sMN7gr3k)

Quote from: Philosophers on March 18, 2024, 10:05:04 PMI hate the idea of leaving topflight talent at other positions available to draft a QB who does not get it done.  They need to nail the evaluation.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 19, 2024, 09:03:40 AMThe one thing about going WR at 6 with hopefully an improved OL is that if it all comes together yet DJ still does not play well enough or gets another neck injury, we will know for sure going into 2025 we need a new starting QB.

Quote from: JT39 on March 19, 2024, 10:47:25 AMNo matter who goes where withthe top 4 QB - they all need support staffs from coaches and players to be successful. The 3rd or 4th QB taken could be more successful than the first QB taken but it doesnt necessarily mean he is better.

Look at Minnesota.
- good OL
- Best WR in the game
- very good up and coming number 2 WR is Addison
- very good TE

Whoeever goes there will be starting off on the right foot!

Quote from: JT39 on March 19, 2024, 10:47:25 AMNo matter who goes where withthe top 4 QB - they all need support staffs from coaches and players to be successful. The 3rd or 4th QB taken could be more successful than the first QB taken but it doesnt necessarily mean he is better.

Look at Minnesota.
- good OL
- Best WR in the game
- very good up and coming number 2 WR is Addison
- very good TE

Whoeever goes there will be starting off on the right foot!

Quote from: katkavage on March 19, 2024, 11:51:47 AMIf the staff is not up to a rookie QB, the Giants need a new staff. And you want to wait until all is good around this rookie? Keep waiting...and waiting...and waiting. We can enjoy more mediocrity while we wait. There is no perfect scenario. Your guy is there, take him. End of story. There won't be other chances.

Quote from: JT39 on March 19, 2024, 11:57:55 AMOh I agree we need a QB and have to take them. My point is that there are situations that are really temping for new QBs and others not so much. And lets say Maye is the 4th QB taken - he may have a better career than Daniels or Williams - but it may be becaue his situation was better.

Quote from: katkavage on March 19, 2024, 12:03:03 PMCould be, but if you are that good and your coaches are at least decent, you should find away to thrive.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 19, 2024, 12:18:28 PMIt's not an individual sport like golf where 1 talent can overpower anyone and everyone.  Need everyone.  That's why it's called a team.

Quote from: katkavage on March 19, 2024, 12:20:35 PMA team where the most important individual to that team is the QB. The team, Houston Texans, made the playoffs from the bottom of the division the year before. They did it in a variety of ways, but most importantly, they did it with their QB.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 19, 2024, 03:07:57 PMCame across this on the internet.  It made me chuckle.


(https://i.redd.it/sm1x7gcj6cpc1.jpeg)

Quote from: Philosophers on March 19, 2024, 01:29:35 PMMost importantly, they did it with an OL that protected their QB, then CJ flourished.  CJ Stroud was only sacked 38 times.  He would not be CJ Stroud if we were sacked 85 times like the Giants OL did.

Quote from: katkavage on March 19, 2024, 05:48:26 PMYou guys just don't get it. Of course I know the value of a good offensive line. But seriously, that good offensive line won't make a mediocre QB an elite QB. It might prevent him from being worse than mediocre. But the QB has to have the skills along with the offensive line to succeed. A good offensive line and a mediocre QB get you nowhere. And stop with the risk of drafting a QB because it's a crapshoot. Yeah, tell me something I don't know. Trust the GM and staff to do their due diligence. If they don't they will be gone

Quote from: Philosophers on March 20, 2024, 12:14:02 AMStop suggesting an elite QB is the answer to the Giants problems.   And I am not suggesting anything about Jones, good or bad.

Quote from: katkavage on March 20, 2024, 05:10:07 AMI never ever suggested that. But having one gives you hope for ultimate success. You can fix the other problems, and the Giants should and actually trying to, but you still need to find that QB. This is a QB driven league. There is no denying that. If you want the real Giant problem, look no further than the owner. Sadly we fans are stuck with a bad one.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 20, 2024, 11:33:03 AMI hope if we draft a QB and next season our OL continues to be awful that we dont insert the rookie just because the offense is sucking.

Quote from: katkavage on March 20, 2024, 12:41:38 PMThat's what Drew Lock is there for. And if the OL is still bad, or hasn't improved significantly, even with their all pro left tackle (that most teams don't have), then it might be time for new management.

Quote from: katkavage on March 20, 2024, 12:41:38 PMThat's what Drew Lock is there for. And if the OL is still bad, or hasn't improved significantly, even with their all pro left tackle (that most teams don't have), then it might be time for new management.

Quote from: Painter on March 21, 2024, 10:15:26 AMNew management? You mean new for the 4th time in 8 years? Sure, that ought to do it. Or are you talking about the Maras selling the team? You might actually have something there.

Cheers!

Quote from: katkavage on March 21, 2024, 11:58:23 AMIf only! I've said that the Mara's are ultimately what drag the franchise down.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 03:17:32 PMhttps://x.com/danorlovsky7/status/1771185543927287961?s=20

Quote from: AZGiantFan on March 21, 2024, 02:07:52 PMI've been drifting towards the assessment that Mara is Jerrah, without the flamboyance and, frankly, without the skills.  Say what you want about the Cowboys tendency to flame out, but at least they've been competitive enough to be in a position to flame out.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 05:24:07 PMhttps://x.com/realtannenbaum/status/1771144832263639427?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 22, 2024, 05:24:07 PMhttps://x.com/realtannenbaum/status/1771144832263639427?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 22, 2024, 05:55:33 PMSeems like a pretty routine play for any QB capable of being on an NFL roster.

If JJ McCarthy is a top five caliber pick, which he may well be, is that really the play you'd pick to prove that assertion?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 23, 2024, 11:26:49 AMInteresting take on McCarthy from a former NFL scout:

https://twitter.com/firstroundmock/status/1771531489236127805?s=46&t=5ebj5eomvte9o41lpqwTkQ

Quote"I can at least "comprehend" the strong feelings some people have about guys who have won the Heisman"

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on March 22, 2024, 04:54:49 PMInteresting point: Would a fan rather have a quality, entertaining, decent team that flames out every year at the end for decades (cheer all year, cry at the end)...or an up-and-down, feast-or-famine, stink-or-shine type of team that wins a Lombardi every decade (bitch all year, surprised some years and have a parade)?

As for me, I'll take the latter

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on March 22, 2024, 04:54:49 PMInteresting point: Would a fan rather have a quality, entertaining, decent team that flames out every year at the end for decades (cheer all year, cry at the end)...or an up-and-down, feast-or-famine, stink-or-shine type of team that wins a Lombardi every decade (bitch all year, surprised some years and have a parade)?

As for me, I'll take the latter

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on March 22, 2024, 04:54:49 PMInteresting point: Would a fan rather have a quality, entertaining, decent team that flames out every year at the end for decades (cheer all year, cry at the end)...or an up-and-down, feast-or-famine, stink-or-shine type of team that wins a Lombardi every decade (bitch all year, surprised some years and have a parade)?

As for me, I'll take the latter

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 23, 2024, 11:48:17 AMI don't doubt his claim of 4 years working with the Jets, but frankly, I had a hard time taking him seriously after he made this comment:
Of things that might be indicators of NFL success, winning the Heisman is not one of them.

Quote from: Bob In PA on March 24, 2024, 02:56:27 PMIf they trade up to pick McCarthy instead of Harrison, it will ruin my year.

I get it.  If he turns out to be "The Next Tom Brady" (also from Michigan, and also dissed/ignored pre-draft) they'll never live it down.  I say I'll take that bet (won't be the next Brady).

I say tell me his three greatest attributes. I can only think of one that really matters to an NFL team (good leader). I do see, though, that players might think more highly of him, depending on what scuttlebutt is going around about him.  I don't know. Maybe Schoen and Mara should ask the players. lol

Bob

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 24, 2024, 03:24:55 PMArizona announced their pick is up for grabs.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 24, 2024, 03:24:55 PMArizona announced their pick is up for grabs.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on March 23, 2024, 12:42:34 PMHowever, I think it is fair to give Jerrah some credit for the Cowboys' relatively consistent competitiveness, while I think Mara has more to do with the famine years and very little to do with the occasional feast years.

Quote from: Bob In PA on March 24, 2024, 02:56:27 PMIf they trade up to pick McCarthy instead of Harrison, it will ruin my year.

I get it.  If he turns out to be "The Next Tom Brady" (also from Michigan, and also dissed/ignored pre-draft) they'll never live it down.  I say I'll take that bet (won't be the next Brady).

I say tell me his three greatest attributes. I can only think of one that really matters to an NFL team (good leader). I do see, though, that players might think more highly of him, depending on what scuttlebutt is going around about him.  I don't know. Maybe Schoen and Mara should ask the players. lol

Bob

Quote from: spiderblue43 on March 25, 2024, 09:26:36 AMAgree Bob,

You can't pass on MHJ if you trade up. Trading up for a surefire star is acceptable, a McCarthy no.

Quote from: T200 on March 25, 2024, 09:41:13 AMWhat's more valuable to an offense: a top 3 QB or a top 3 WR?

Quote from: babywhales on March 25, 2024, 10:46:30 AMRoster development is relative. You can win with either or neither, it all depends on the how the rest of the team is built.

Quote from: T200 on March 25, 2024, 10:52:55 AMI agree about roster development.

But give me the top 3 QB over the top 3 WR. If a defense doubles or otherwise neutralizes the top WR, the QB has other options. If the QB is having an off day, there's very little the top WR is going to be able to do to get that offense going.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 26, 2024, 10:11:32 PMIf JJ is there I think the Giants have to grab him without hesitation. The product on the field has to get better and Daniel Jones is incapable of that at this point.

Quote from: kingm56 on March 27, 2024, 02:15:43 AMJoe/Jess,

Fundamentally, I agree with both of you; however, when it comes to JJ, I just don't know. I'd rather gamble on a prospect like Nix in the second round vice spend my top pick on JJ; executing this COA, could net us a top-tier QB and WR.  Even if Nix is flop, you could literally draft QB again the following seasons.

If the Giants do draft JJ, I will still be happy as the promise of JJ represents a far better prospect than enduring another offensively inept/boring season under DJ.  In short, we know the latter's capability; I'd rather gamble on a QB to afford the Giants an opportunity to truly alter their trajectory.   

Quote from: kingm56 on March 27, 2024, 02:15:43 AMJoe/Jess,

Fundamentally, I agree with both of you; however, when it comes to JJ, I just don't know. I'd rather gamble on a prospect like Nix in the second round vice spend my top pick on JJ; executing this COA, could net us a top-tier QB and WR.  Even if Nix is flop, you could literally draft QB again the following seasons.

If the Giants do draft JJ, I will still be happy as the promise of JJ represents a far better prospect than enduring another offensively inept/boring season under DJ.  In short, we know the latter's capability; I'd rather gamble on a QB to afford the Giants an opportunity to truly alter their trajectory.   

Quote from: Philosophers on March 27, 2024, 10:18:27 AMI totally see where you are coming from.  Two things though enter my mind.  First how much of a real drop off would there be with a 2nd round WR prospect given such a deep class?  Second, we have not really discussed the leap Hyatt and maybe Robinson may take next season.  Hyatt was good.  They did not throw it to him enough.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 28, 2024, 05:34:52 PMI just read that Caleb has painted his nails pink and is walking around with a pink mobile phone.  I have nothing against color choices but folks will rush to judgment.  In no way does this help him and frankly folks may question his judgment to do something which may be misinterpreted.  Some here will say, "it doesn't matter."  Then it will.

Message to JJ.  Continue being you.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 28, 2024, 06:33:51 PMI can see why this would rub many NFL fans the wrong way, and I understand why, but for me it's still all about what the player does on the field and how he treats and interacts with his teammates. The rest is noise to me. If those two overriding factors are strong, then I don't care how he dresses, what he does with his hair, or even if he paints his nails, personally.

Dennis Rodman was doing stuff like this (and way, way more by the way) several decades ago, and he was an absolutely pivotal part of two different championship winning NBA franchises. The Celtics are the best or second best team in the NBA right now, and there is a key guy on the team with florescent green hair.

You can run an NFL team with the mindset of only looking for guys who look like they were plucked from central casting for a 1950s Ovaltine commercial. That's one way to play it, and I'd say our owner is a bit like that. And it seems we have plenty of fans who prefer that sort of approach. But to me, it's about what the player does on the field, and how he interacts with his teammates and coaches. His physical appearance, hairstyle, or fashion sense is way down the list of things I care about. I want talented players who are winners and great teammates. I don't care what they look like.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 28, 2024, 07:55:44 PMRodman did that after he became famous and established his high level of professional play not before he is trying to get to his first contract.

That's my concern for him.  Judgment.  Now he needs to be not drawing attention to himself this way.

Quote from: JPPT1974 on March 28, 2024, 08:29:25 PMWell as it would be surprising. Then it would not be surprising. As JJ is a future NFL star regardless of NFL team. But hope he can really be in the league for the long haul. Question is if he will land with the Giants or where?! But he has a promising future.

Quote from: JPPT1974 on March 28, 2024, 08:29:25 PMWell as it would be surprising. Then it would not be surprising. As JJ is a future NFL star regardless of NFL team. But hope he can really be in the league for the long haul. Question is if he will land with the Giants or where?! But he has a promising future.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 28, 2024, 08:14:23 PMThat's a fair point about Rodman. He wasn't really "weird" on the Pistons. You're right. I think you make a valid point.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 30, 2024, 07:33:22 AMIt's very obvious many here significantly Williams or are down on him as a prospect. That is fine, but it's kind of irrelevant. There is zero chance he will be a Giant in 2024.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 30, 2024, 04:03:32 PMWe'll see how good he actually becomes. Everyone here such firm views on all these prospects like they already know the outcome. It makes me chuckle how certain everyone seems. The reality is there is a huge range of possibilities with all these players, and nobody remotely knows where any of them will land, including people employed in the league who are more qualified than any of us to make these judgments

Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on March 30, 2024, 04:20:24 PMI think in our collective heart of hearts we know you're right. But what better place than an anonymous message board as a platform to demonstrate that you are the smartest person in the room?  And if our posts elicit a laugh or two, all the better  ;)

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 30, 2024, 06:32:00 PMActually not my words. A quoteless copy that went under the radar by the author. Although applied to 34 pages of hype... yada, yada, yada.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 30, 2024, 04:03:32 PMWe'll see how good he actually becomes. Everyone here such firm views on all these prospects like they already know the outcome. It makes me chuckle how certain everyone seems. The reality is there is a huge range of possibilities with all these players, and nobody remotely knows where any of them will land, including people employed in the league who are more qualified than any of us to make these judgments.

Quote from: Philosophers on March 31, 2024, 09:50:21 AMRich - beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  It simply is not what she looks like coming into the bar but what she is like after 4 hours of talking with her.

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 31, 2024, 10:04:06 AMAnd never at closing time.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 05, 2024, 08:54:06 AMHere are what college coaches said about JJ (via Bruce Feldman)


The Coaching Intel

"I think too many people are getting caught up trying to look at box scores instead of watching film. He makes a lot of plays for them after the play breaks down. There's some 'wow' stuff in there. He's on a dead sprint, and he makes some perfect throws. When he has to get out and make a play, he can really do it."

"We thought he throws a little bit of a flat ball and you wouldn't see much of him layering it in there. But he's really dynamic. You wanted to keep him in the pocket but he'd still get out whenever they needed him to, and he's great throwing on the run. He could get out to his left or his right and get you, but especially going to his right."

"I thought he was great. You could tell he was the alpha male on that team from a leadership standpoint. He was coached up well on how to make throws and make the decisions very fast. He throws very well on the run. He did have a really good O-line and a good defense, but we didn't think their wide receivers were great, and he made it all go."

Quote from: Philosophers on April 07, 2024, 05:10:36 PMGut says Giants want maybe 1 or 2 of the QBs and maybe 1 or 2 WRs.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 07, 2024, 06:43:04 PMLot of reports coming out that the Giants WOULD pull off a blockbuster trade to the patriots depending on who is there after the 1st 2 picks.   

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 07, 2024, 06:45:47 PMThey've scouted Maye a ton.

Not sure why the Pats would trade down though. They're going to go into week one with Jacoby Brisett and Bailey Zappe?

Quote from: uconnjack8 on April 08, 2024, 02:16:15 PMSo what spot do the Vikings trade up to in order to ensure they get him?  4? 5? 6?  If they are really worried about another team taking him, I would think it has to be the 4 spot. 

Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 08, 2024, 04:16:58 PMIf that's the deal I hope it is 6.  LOL

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 12, 2024, 08:26:52 PMhttps://x.com/bigblueunited/status/1778593587367669834?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 12, 2024, 10:05:14 PMFolks here who have made up their minds that McCarthy is going to be a really good NFL QB will claim that Tiki, a highly talented, knowledgeable, and accomplished former NFL star, has no clue what he's talking about and that they're right and he's wrong.

Folks who see it more his way will nod in agreement or "like" the post.

That's how it usually works in March/April.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 12, 2024, 10:05:14 PMFolks here who have made up their minds that McCarthy is going to be a really good NFL QB will claim that Tiki, a highly talented, knowledgeable, and accomplished former NFL star, has no clue what he's talking about and that they're right and he's wrong.

Folks who see it more his way will nod in agreement or "like" the post.

That's how it usually works in March/April.

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 13, 2024, 06:54:20 AMJeff,

I appreciate there are a few here guilty of shooting the messenger (or heaping massive praise on the messenger) because their opinion matches their own.  However, I think they are the exception, not the rule.  I think most here consider both the soundness of the argument and the qualifications of the person putting forth the argument when they consider what was said.

I was more than willing to listen to Tike because as a former HB and broadcaster is qualified to give his opinion.  That said, Tiki lost me when he claimed the scheme JJ worked in at Michigan doesn't translate to the NFL.  Michigan ran an NFL-style offense, and the things you saw JJ doing translated far better to the NFL than all the other top prospects (to some degree or other).

Quote from: Philosophers on April 13, 2024, 08:27:16 AMWhen Tiki said Michigan is not an NFL style offense and is a one read passing game, I laughed and wondered if he ever actually watched a Michigan game. 

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 13, 2024, 10:17:18 AMActually, watching that highlight film the boys put up there were several one read passes. So he's not completely wrong. He did bird dog his receiver at times. I actually was watching the film and was disappointed seeing it. Again it was a highlight film and I don't know how many plays were repeated. I don't know if it's truly a concern. If you have some time, watch the BB Banter pod I put up. Let me know what you think.

Quote from: Philosophers on April 14, 2024, 09:08:02 AMWd - it's a multi read offense but if the primary read is open he goes to him.  You cant look at a highlight film of any QB because most throws will likely to first WR.

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2024, 09:37:30 AMWhy would most throws likely Go to the first WR in a highlight film?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 14, 2024, 09:38:31 AMWhy would you try to scout a player from a highlight film?

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 14, 2024, 09:37:30 AMWhy would most throws likely Go to the first WR in a highlight film?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 16, 2024, 11:34:52 AMhttps://x.com/JFowlerESPN/status/1780256026119242204

Quote from: Ed Vette on April 16, 2024, 11:55:04 AMPaywall. Can you post the content of the article?

Quote from: MightyGiants on April 16, 2024, 11:57:45 AMThey have one for all the top QBs

Tier 2.5

J.J. McCarthy, Michigan
Most frequent scout/exec comp: Mix of Kirk Cousins and Brock Purdy

McCarthy is easily the most fascinating -- and polarizing -- quarterback prospect in the draft. Evaluators are truly all over the map. Some see elite talent, maybe the best long-term play of the group, while others see fringe first-round or even second-round talent. He's very close to Tier 2.

"I don't see him getting past [Pick] 5 or 6," an NFC exec said. "Definitely not getting out of the top 10. Anticipation, decision-making, preparation, coming from pro-style offense -- he's got a lot going for him. You see him process, go through progressions. That's an easier predictor of what it would look like at the NFL level."

Added a high-ranking NFL official: "I'm buying the hype that he goes high. He's got something to him from a leadership and makeup standpoint that resonates."

McCarthy gets the game manager label, having averaged 22.6 passing attempts per game over the past two seasons (29 games). That lack of in-game volume only heightened the scrutiny around McCarthy's pro day, where McCarthy "validated some things" with "one of the best pro days I've seen as a passer," according to one veteran NFL personnel evaluator.

"Movement ability, arm talent, laying the football, throwing off-platform. He did it all [at his pro day]," the evaluator said. As one NFL national scout put it, "[McCarthy] wasn't a game manager because they had to hide something -- he has high-level traits. It's more a function of Jim Harbaugh's offense. He's never been asked to throw 30-plus times a game but I think he can handle it." An AFC offensive coach counters: "[Former Michigan coach Jim] Harbaugh didn't trust him like he did Andrew Luck. When he makes a mistake, Harbaugh leans into the running game even more so during the flow of the game."

Multiple teams believe Minnesota or Denver could be trade-up options for McCarthy, who's considered a good fit in both places. He'd be best served to sit a year behind a veteran, per multiple scouts. McCarthy's 39.0 total QBR when under pressure was among the best of nearly 250 FBS quarterbacks with at least 25 starts over the past decade, trailing only Joe Burrow (49.0) and Trevor Lawrence (44.0). Stroud was tied with McCarthy at 39.0.

"I just don't see it," said an AFC scout of the McCarthy hype. "I don't see consistent accuracy, his ability to get it done inside the white lines, and [the Michigan staff] didn't call games or play offensively like they trusted him." But one reason he's rising? "What you're seeing now is the coaches and coordinators are more involved in the draft process [in March and April], and they are realizing, s---, he's a pro already," the NFC exec said. "And he showed more arm strength at his pro day than I thought he had."