Go to the 25:15 mark for the start of the discussion. There is a heavy focus on JJ, but he covers other QBs. Lombardi also discusses the Giants QB situation.
Maybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how! lol NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.
As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.
None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 24, 2024, 09:44:28 AMMaybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how! lol NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.
As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.
None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).
Bob
Bob,
I agree about your point about the O-line Jones worked with. Hard to "calmly step up into the pocket" when there are already two defenders there waiting to great you.
With Mike, I find his commentary is a combination of what he hears and what he sees from his own study. I think the Drake May comments were heard. In another segment, Mike talks about how teams really come away liking JJ. That was obviously heard and it's what he was referring to when he talked about the intangibles.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 24, 2024, 09:50:10 AMBob,
I agree about your point about the O-line Jones worked with. Hard to "calmly step up into the pocket" when there are already two defenders there waiting to great you.
With Mike, I find his commentary is a combination of what he hears and what he sees from his own study. I think the Drake May comments were heard. In another segment, Mike talks about how teams really come away liking JJ. That was obviously heard and it's what he was referring to when he talked about the intangibles.
Rich: I forgot about his mention of May... you're right. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 24, 2024, 09:44:28 AMMaybe Jones doesn't have the "innate trait" (think fast, play slow) but I'd ask Lombardi to get out there behind the Giants' offensive line and show me how! lol NOT ONE WORD ABOUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE. Two thumbs down.
As for the QB's discussed, he's not hearing much. I say that because mostly he talked about the various types of scouts and what they look for, as well as the various things HE looks for when evaluating a QB.
None of that is something he "heard" but rather his view of the drafting process(and I agree with all of that).
Bob
There were quite a bit of times last season where Jones had an opportunity to hold the balls for a few ticks longer before taking a downfield shot. Being battered over the years likely impacted that ability.
I agree with Lombardi: the team needs to admit that Jones is not the solution.
Mike makes a good point about QBs' need to process quickly but "play slow." Meaning, be able to get through the reads, progressions, and decision-making process quickly, but not rush the play. His point about how Jones is weak in this whole area is a good one.
Whoever our next long term QB is, whether we get him in this draft or at another time, I think way more stock needs to be put into processing speed/capacity and decision-making than it was this last time. I think in the case of Jones, Gettleman, Mara, and their scouts all decided they liked Jones because of his look, build, athleticism, book smarts, decent arm, work ethic, and Eli-esque personality. All of that may check out well with him, but they didn't do enough on actual QB talent, because the above cerebral aspects I outlined are a big part of overall "talent."
I'm still in the camp that drafting a QB is a crap shoot
JJ might become a star, he might be the second coming of Mac Jones...who the hell knows? No one!
I do believe the Giants are going to give DJ the benefit of the doubt, one more year. He either proves some people wrong, or some people right. I also believe Schoen is just doing his due diligence by strongly evaluating every single top prospect, and that 90% of it could very well be a smoke screen. Deep down, I think he wants a game-changing receiver to throw in the mix for DJ's last hurrah (if it comes to that). There will be no bickering about DJ if he finally has a protective line and good receivers
Quote from: Hadron on March 24, 2024, 11:11:01 AMThere were quite a bit of times last season where Jones had an opportunity to hold the balls for a few ticks longer before taking a downfield shot. Being battered over the years likely impacted that ability.
I agree with Lombardi: the team needs to admit that Jones is not the solution.
Hadron: I agree with that, but check out a few plays (or series) BEFORE those plays and you'll see that not holding the ball was immediately preceded by OL breakdowns, sacks, necessity to scramble, or a WR running the wrong route.
It's almost impossible to trust your OL on the sixth play when plays one through five have been disastrous. IMO there's no confidence in the OL on the plays you're referring to because of what the OL previously did in the same game or series.
Defenses like the Eagles know this, so they go all-out early in games cause Jones to not trust his OL. IMO not even the best QB's in the league could avoid losing confidence in the Giants' OL, so (although I don't think he's among the best in the league) I also don't believe Jones' problems are PRIMARILY his fault, and I know for a fact that the fault is shared.
IMO the far greater share is due to the OL's usually-consistent failure (even in games where Giants win) to do their jobs, and I believe Schoen/Daboll agree.
Bob
When Carl Banks opined a week or so ago that Jones might be seeing ghosts in the pocket and be understandably worried for his health I took a couple of things from that:
1. Banks works for the team so if he is thinking this it is not a big leap to assume it is something being discussed internally at different levels within the Giants organisation up to and including HC and GM
2. If he is right, it probably cannot be fixed by fixing the OL. IF Jones has serious concerns about his neck he will know it only takes one unlucky play and will have jitters
It feels close to 100% certain that this year or next we will be drafting or trading or signing in FA somehow a new QB1. When, not if, IMO.
Quote from: londonblue on March 24, 2024, 11:49:21 AMWhen Carl Banks opined a week or so ago that Jones might be seeing ghosts in the pocket and be understandably worried for his health I took a couple of things from that:
1. Banks works for the team so if he is thinking this it is not a big leap to assume it is something being discussed internally at different levels within the Giants organisation up to and including HC and GM
2. If he is right, it probably cannot be fixed by fixing the OL. IF Jones has serious concerns about his neck he will know it only takes one unlucky play and will have jitters
It feels close to 100% certain that this year or next we will be drafting or trading or signing in FA somehow a new QB1. When, not if, IMO.
london: IMO yours is the best (and ONLY) argument for giving up on Jones and for not blaming the OL. But I don't know if the coaches can get inside Jones' head to see WHETHER he's seeing ghosts, so I rule out number 1 in your post. But the second reason given COULD be the problem (assuming there is a problem) and that alone would be enough reason for the team to "start over" at QB. The Giants' selections in this year's draft will likely (and conclusively) settle this issue for once and for all. Bob
Bob, they don't have to be able to get inside Jones' head on the 'ghosts' they just have to perceive a problem. I have said several times on here down the years that perception becomes reality in decision making (unless you lean heavily into data and decision science to offset bias). If decision makers think Jones is (or even worry he might be) "seeing ghosts" then that will shape their behaviour.
Quote from: londonblue on March 24, 2024, 12:29:29 PMBob, they don't have to be able to get inside Jones' head on the 'ghosts' they just have to perceive a problem. I have said several times on here down the years that perception becomes reality in decision making (unless you lean heavily into data and decision science to offset bias). If decision makers think Jones is (or even worry he might be) "seeing ghosts" then that will shape their behaviour.
london: Whether the team perceives Jones to be "seeing ghosts" may have already been decided (in the negative). I don't believe everything Schoen says, but he is absolutely insistent than Jones is their starting QB next year (absent a health issue). He COULD be lying (most likely reason would be draft-related deception) but I don't believe it matters at Pick Six as much as if the Giants had Pick Two, Three or Four. Teams above them likely won't be affected, and there just aren't more than three QB's this year whom the consensus views as high first-round QB's. Bob
Gentlemen,
In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries. In fact, his lack of processing speed is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter. If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate. All the signs were and continue to be present. Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level. He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer. If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows? More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes. There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'
I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years. In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played. At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm...
Quote from: kingm56 on March 25, 2024, 03:02:03 AMGentlemen,
In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries. In fact, his lack of processing speed is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter. If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate. All the signs were and continue to be present. Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level. He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer. If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows? More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes. There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'
I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years. In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played. At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm...
king: Nice post. I hope you're wrong, but I know better.
Obviously, there's something about the kid they really like (probably effort and dedication) so they're going to stick with him until they're out of excuses.
I've been a consistent defender of Jones throughout the years because the team failed to assemble a supporting cast immediately after drafting him (IMO, it should have been done before drafting a QB). That matter cannot be denied, notwithstanding all of your excellent points.
We have to assume the team was aware of most of all of those points, so the fact that they drafted him anyway is almost inexplicable... or they believed the problem(s) was(were) fixable. It sure looks like they were wrong, but he'll probably have this year as a last gasp.
To date, IMO it's unclear whether they'll draft a high 1st-round QB, but the waters are murky. What they actually do in that regard will tell the tale... so we'll have our answer in just a few weeks.
Bob
PS. I just don't like this group of QB's but if I had to pick one with the first pick it would be McCarthy. At least he knows what it's like to win games against college's best teams.
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 25, 2024, 07:23:32 AMking: Nice post. I hope you're wrong, but I know better.
Obviously, there's something about the kid they really like (probably effort and dedication) so they're going to stick with him until they're out of excuses.
I've been a consistent defender of Jones throughout the years because the team failed to assemble a supporting cast immediately after drafting him (IMO, it should have been done before drafting a QB). That matter cannot be denied, notwithstanding all of your excellent points.
We have to assume the team was aware of most of all of those points, so the fact that they drafted him anyway is almost inexplicable... or they believed the problem(s) was(were) fixable. It sure looks like they were wrong, but he'll probably have this year as a last gasp.
To date, IMO it's unclear whether they'll draft a high 1st-round QB, but the waters are murky. What they actually do in that regard will tell the tale... so we'll have our answer in just a few weeks.
Bob
PS. I just don't like this group of QB's but if I had to pick one with the first pick it would be McCarthy. At least he knows what it's like to win games against college's best teams.
I concur with you regarding this group of QBs, Bob. I just don't know about the top 4 guys; I'd prefer we gamble with someone like Nix in the late 1st/early 2d and use our #1 on the Wr you covet. Fix the line with 3/4; who knows, maybe we'll find our next David D....
Quote from: kingm56 on March 25, 2024, 03:02:03 AMGentlemen,
In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries. In fact, his lack of processing speed is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter. If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate. All the signs were and continue to be present. Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level. He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer. If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows? More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes. There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'
I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years. In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played. At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm...
This is what gets me. The biggest knock on Jones was always his ability to process quickly. This isn't something where he was suddenly sped up by a bad O-line. It hasn't helped but this was always a major question with Jones and why very few people thought taking him with a top 10 pick was a bad idea. It's really why so many people had him as a day 2 pick.
I am puzzled by how many people buy into the claim that Daniel Jones is a slow processor. Do you honestly believe that Daboll (for all his faults, he appears to be a pretty good OC) couldn't figure out how quickly Jones could process? Does anyone here believe that outsiders or fans are better at judging DJ's processing speed than the coaches in the building?
Now, if the fan's claims about how slow DJ processes were true and the coaches (the people in the best position to judge) told Schoen that Daniel Jones would never be better than a backup QB (ignore the whole winning season and winning an away playoff game against a double-digit win team) that he would have signed Jones to the contract he signed him to???
Also, while McShay said Jones "was slow to process at times," Other draft outsiders like Lance Zierline (who does the reports for NFL.com and Walter Football both said Jones was a quick processor.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 25, 2024, 11:31:06 AMI am puzzled by how many people buy into the claim that Daniel Jones is a slow processor. Do you honestly believe that Daboll (for all his faults, he appears to be a pretty good OC) couldn't figure out how quickly Jones could process? Does anyone here believe that outsiders or fans are better at judging DJ's processing speed than the coaches in the building?
Rich: I sense (but cannot prove) that most of the folks here who are seriously down on Jones DO BELIEVE that the only reason he's still on the team is due to the owners (probably Mara) insisting upon it. If true, that would negate your reasoning (above) which I find persuasive and logical. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 25, 2024, 11:47:01 AMRich: I sense (but cannot prove) that most of the folks here who are seriously down on Jones DO BELIEVE that the only reason he's still on the team is due to the owners (probably Mara) insisting upon it. If true, that would negate your reasoning (above) which I find persuasive and logical. Bob
Bob,
I don't prescribe to the notion that Mara is solely responsible for DJ remaining on the roster; although, I certainly believe he played a role. Fundamentally, I believe he's still on a team as result of circumstance. If a decent QB prospect was available in 2022, the Giants would have drafted him with one of their two top 7 picks. Unfortunately, it was the worse draft for QB prospects in two decades. Last year, there were no alternatives and it would have been a marketing nightmare to allow DJ to walk, following a Playoff victory. What I do know is 60+ GS is more than enough time to predict DJ's trajectory.
Quote from: Bob In PA on March 25, 2024, 11:47:01 AMRich: I sense (but cannot prove) that most of the folks here who are seriously down on Jones DO BELIEVE that the only reason he's still on the team is due to the owners (probably Mara) insisting upon it. If true, that would negate your reasoning (above) which I find persuasive and logical. Bob
I am glad you used the word "believe," as that means a position held without supporting facts.
Look, I will admit with this terrible losing streak, I have been down on Mara. I believe Mike Lombardi's assertion that Mara is too loyal (Ronnie Barnes being exhibit one).
Still, the man grew up around professional football. Great football minds like Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick, George Young, Ernie Accorsi, and Tom Coughlin no doubt helped to shape his beliefs about football.
The idea that Daboll and Schoen came to John Mara and told him, "We need to move on from Daniel Jones because he simply can't process quick enough," and this was met by Mara saying, "Daniel Jones reminds me of Eli Manning, so I don't care if he can't be successful I want you to pay what it takes to keep him on the team!"
This exchange strikes me as highly unlikely and, frankly, even silly.
Quote from: kingm56 on March 25, 2024, 11:53:54 AMBob,
I don't prescribe to the notion that Mara is solely responsible for DJ remaining on the roster; although, I certainly believe he played a role. Fundamentally, I believe he's still on a team as result of circumstance. If a decent QB prospect was available in 2022, the Giants would have drafted him with one of their two top 7 picks. Unfortunately, it was the worse draft for QB prospects in two decades. Last year, there were no alternatives and it would have been a marketing nightmare to allow DJ to walk, following a Playoff victory. What I do know is 60+ GS is more than enough time to predict DJ's trajectory.
king: My mantra about the draft continues to be that the Giants are one of the unluckiest of NFL teams, and have been so since IMO the late 1960's. Their best "luck" has been 2004 (the Eli situation) and the year Lawrence Taylor "fell" to Pick Two. lol Bob
Quote from: kingm56 on March 25, 2024, 11:53:54 AMBob,
I don't prescribe to the notion that Mara is solely responsible for DJ remaining on the roster; although, I certainly believe he played a role. Fundamentally, I believe he's still on a team as result of circumstance. If a decent QB prospect was available in 2022, the Giants would have drafted him with one of their two top 7 picks. Unfortunately, it was the worse draft for QB prospects in two decades. Last year, there were no alternatives and it would have been a marketing nightmare to allow DJ to walk, following a Playoff victory. What I do know is 60+ GS is more than enough time to predict DJ's trajectory.
What about that prospect from Iowa State, Brock what's-his-name? I hear he has played pretty well since becoming an NFL QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 25, 2024, 11:57:52 AMWhat about that prospect from Iowa State, Brock what's-his-name? I hear he has played pretty well since becoming an NFL QB.
You're right, Rich; he was such an amazing prospect he lasted to the very last pick. I don't fault the Giants for not using a top 7 pick on him.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 25, 2024, 11:31:06 AMNow, if the fan's claims about how slow DJ processes were true and the coaches (the people in the best position to judge) told Schoen that Daniel Jones would never be better than a backup QB (ignore the whole winning season and winning an away playoff game against a double-digit win team) that he would have signed Jones to the contract he signed him to???
The Giants ended up in no man's land regarding their QB after 2022. Winning 9 games and, ultimately, a playoff game, left them missing out on the top QBs in the draft so the only options were either re-sign Jones or bring in a stopgap. That said, this is a team that is keenly aware of perception and I do think that bringing Jones back was at least partially because they didn't want the whole "how could you move off a guy who just won you a playoff game" concept. The other part of it was basically "well, what else are we going to do?" All that said, the contract was essentially designed to give the Giants an opt out after year 2 if it didn't work out with Jones. Basically, if 2023 went as it did the Giants would be in a position to start planning to move on from Jones with his contract being a one year albatross. Bringing him back didn't mean they loved him, it meant they didn't have many options.
Ultimately, though, people need to stop pretending that 2022 season was more than it was. The Giants ran a low risk offense where Jones' main purpose was to not be the reason we lost. While they won a playoff game against a 13 win team that Vikings defense was awful. Jones was fine but hardly a needle mover in terms of overall success.
All I know is that when I watch Jones I frequently ask what was he looking at or what was he thinking? The key work there is frequently ...since everyone one makes mistakes but he is more consistent with it. He makes me yell at my TV set more than anyone.
Quote from: kingm56 on March 25, 2024, 03:02:03 AMGentlemen,
In regards to the rationale for DJ's poor performance as a passer, please consider he was criticized for lack of processing speed in college, well before he was saddled with the Giants' terrible OLs, or suffered any injuries. In fact, his lack of processing speed is what led Todd McShay to conclude DJ was a 'bad pick, who's skillsets were more suited to a backup vice NFL starter. If you go back and listen to McShay, his assessment was eerily accurate. All the signs were and continue to be present. Again, DJ was never an above-average passer, at any level. He wasn't a highly, or even moderately recruited HS player; also, he only amassed a few 300+ yard passing games in college, despite playing in a high-scoring conference. The reasons are obvious; despite being a good athlete, his mental/cogitative shortcomings limit his ceiling as a passer. If you consider the latter, how many times do we see DJ make an anticipatory throw through tight windows? More often than not, he's throwing simple crossing, post or nine routes. There's also virtually no improv ability; if a play breaks down, so does DJ, with the exception of the occasional long run. As a passer, he simply never had 'it.'
I'm also mystified why some fans are signing up for 17 more games to see if he can become something he never was; it's more perplexing when you compare DJ's trajectory to every QB who's played over the past 30 years. In short, no QB made the transition from average to SB winning QB after 60+ games played. At this point, DJ is who he is, and I think the Giants understand their current paradigm...
Excellent post. Very well summed up, and hard to argue against with a straight face.