Better or Worse

[Ed Vette]

I agree.

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/5/6/24147428/is-the-giants-2024-roster-better-than-the-one-joe-schoen-inherited-after-the-2021-season

[MightyGiants]

These unit-by-unit comparisons are interesting, and I didn't see anything I would strongly disagree with in the article.


Still, as they say, team building is not the same as collecting talent.  I don't have a good answer as to how to best compare teams or evaluate teams to get a better sense of the direction a team is going.   It is something I have been thinking about though-  how to best evaluate a team to get a better sense of the direction it is going in.

[Painter]

QB- Neutral. There is no basis to suggest that Daniel Jones, even if healthy, will be any better or worse than he has been. Better depth, yes, as it could hardly have been worse. Still, it's really all about DJ.

RB- Neutral. Even if Barkley has a great year with the Eagles, as he did for a couple or three of his 6 seasons with the Giants, I can't help but to think of him as a "boom or bust" RB. That may be unfair, but I feel no loss in his departure. Still, while I am optimistic about the new additions and current roster, and so don't feel it to be Worse, I can't yet rate it as other than Neutral.

TE- Neutral. We can hope but there is no real basis to think or to say otherwise.

OL- Better. It could hardly have been worse. Except for questions regarding Neal and ORT, which I expect to sort itself out either there or at ORG and otherwise to be a better net roster overall.

DL- Better. Even with the loss of Williams at the 3-tech, I see the addition of Burns to Thibs and Ojulari at Edge or 4-Man as more than compensating for what was not a good Wink D overall.

LB- Better. Best in many years both Inside and Outside with those mentioned above and with Okereke, McFadden, and Simmons at MLB and ILB.

CB/Safety- Worse. Until proven otherwise, I certainly can't say Better and feel that Neutral would be a cop out. I can say, however, that I am pleased to have Shane Bowen as the new DC. In regard to the play in and of the Secondary, I will guess off-the-ball / bend don't break coverage outside the 20s while none tougher/better/ stingier in the Redzone.

In any case, for now quien sabe?

Cheers!

[brownelvis54]

Is the Giants' 2024 roster better than the one Joe Schoen inherited after the 2021 season?


Is the New York Giants' roster today better than the one Joe Schoen inherited from Dave Gettleman when he took over as general manager in 2022?

There are 11 players on the current 90-man roster who were drafted or signed by Gettleman. They are:

WR Darius Slayton, LT Andrew Thomas, DT Dexter Lawrence, edge Azeez Ojulari, CB Aaron Robinson, PK Graham Gano, LS Casey Kreiter, RB Gary Brightwell, LB Carter Coughlin, CB Darnay Holmes, QB Daniel Jones.




A breakdown:


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/is-the-giants-2024-roster-better-than-the-one-joe-schoen-inherited-after-the-2021-season/ar-BB1lU7Gl?ocid=BingNewsSerp

[Painter]

QB- Neutral. There is no basis to suggest that Daniel Jones, even if healthy, will be any better or worse than he has been. Better depth, yes, as it could hardly have been worse. Still, it's really all about DJ.

RB- Neutral. Even if Barkley has a great year with the Eagles, as he did for a couple or three of his 6 seasons with the Giants, I can't help but to think of him as a "boom or bust" RB. That may be unfair, but I feel no loss in his departure. Still, while I am optimistic about the new additions and current roster, and so don't feel it to be Worse, I can't yet rate it as other than Neutral.

TE- Neutral. We can hope but there is no real basis to think or to say otherwise.

OL- Better. It could hardly have been worse. Except for questions regarding Neal and ORT, which I expect to sort itself out either there or at ORG and otherwise to be a better net roster overall.

DL- Better. Even with the loss of Williams at the 3-tech, I see the addition of Phillips plus Burns to Thibs and Ojulari at Edge or 4-Man as more than compensating for what proved to not be a good Wink D overall last year

LB- Better. Best in some time both Inside and Outside with those mentioned above and with Okereke, McFadden, and Simmons at MLB and ILB.

CB/Safety- Worse. Until proven otherwise, I can hope, but certainly can't say Better and feel that Neutral would be a bit of a cop out. I can say, however, that I am pleased to have Shane Bowen as the new DC. In regard to the play in and of the Secondary, I will guess off-the-ball / bend don't break coverage outside the 20s while none tougher/better/ stingier in the Redzone.

In any case, for now quien sabe?

You can infer what you will from my comments above re Ed's earlier query unless and until I feel a need for revision.

Cheers!

[Painter]

For my thoughts, see Better or Worse above. Or below as it may be.

Cheers!

[DaveBrown74]

Is it better? I would say yes. O line is better, D is better, we have a star receiver, and our special teams are better.

Is it as improved as it should be after three offseasons since Schoen's hiring? I would have to say no.

[nb587]

The article touched on the problem that confronted Schoen caused by making the playoffs in 2022.  There is no way they give Jones his contract if they were bad as most expected them to be.  Making the playoffs and having to deal with Barkley along with a meddling owner (in my opinion) forced decisions Schoen no doubt regrets.  Nevertheless I think he has a plan that will work if given time.

[Ed Vette]

QB- Neutral. There is no basis to suggest that Daniel Jones, even if healthy, will be any better or worse than he has been. Better depth, yes, as it could hardly have been worse. Still, it's really all about DJ.

RB- Neutral. Even if Barkley has a great year with the Eagles, as he did for a couple or three of his 6 seasons with the Giants, I can't help but to think of him as a "boom or bust" RB. That may be unfair, but I feel no loss in his departure. Still, while I am optimistic about the new additions and current roster, and so don't feel it to be Worse, I can't yet rate it as other than Neutral.

TE- Neutral. We can hope but there is no real basis to think or to say otherwise.

OL- Better. It could hardly have been worse. Except for questions regarding Neal and ORT, which I expect to sort itself out either there or at ORG and otherwise to be a better net roster overall.

DL- Better. Even with the loss of Williams at the 3-tech, I see the addition of Phillips plus Burns to Thibs and Ojulari at Edge or 4-Man as more than compensating for what proved to not be a good Wink D overall last year

LB- Better. Best in some time both Inside and Outside with those mentioned above and with Okereke, McFadden, and Simmons at MLB and ILB.

CB/Safety- Worse. Until proven otherwise, I can hope, but certainly can't say Better and feel that Neutral would be a bit of a cop out. I can say, however, that I am pleased to have Shane Bowen as the new DC. In regard to the play in and of the Secondary, I will guess off-the-ball / bend don't break coverage outside the 20s while none tougher/better/ stingier in the Redzone.

In any case, for now quien sabe?

You can infer what you will from my comments above re Ed's earlier query unless and until I feel a need for revision.

Cheers!

I think overall a slightly better roster than he inherited after three drafts and FA is pretty poor. Rich posted the five year average PFF support teams and 2022 the year he inherited was the best year for the Giants.

A neutral rating for QB and RB is reasonable but I'll point out that Barkley was four years younger. I believe the DL is worse but the Edge/OLB is stronger. Together that could be a neutral for me.

[Gmo11]

Is it better? I would say yes. O line is better, D is better, we have a star receiver, and our special teams are better.

Is it as improved as it should be after three offseasons since Schoen's hiring? I would have to say no.

I would agree with that. But I'd add that Neal was a no brainer pick that any GM in the league (save Gettleman) would have taken in that spot and if he had turned out to be even serviceable that changes things in my opinion. If Neal was good the team would be much better off overall, although they'd still have a QB problem I suppose.

[Philosophers]

I would agree with that. But I'd add that Neal was a no brainer pick that any GM in the league (save Gettleman) would have taken in that spot and if he had turned out to be even serviceable that changes things in my opinion. If Neal was good the team would be much better off overall, although they'd still have a QB problem I suppose.

I dont agree that every GM would have taken Neal.  Possible another passes because of his lack of testing or looks at data or does interviews differently.

Would every GM have drafted Saquon and his more obvious talent out of college than Neal?

[DaveBrown74]

I would agree with that. But I'd add that Neal was a no brainer pick that any GM in the league (save Gettleman) would have taken in that spot and if he had turned out to be even serviceable that changes things in my opinion. If Neal was good the team would be much better off overall, although they'd still have a QB problem I suppose.

They could have taken Ekwonu 5th overall but they prioritized Thibodeaux. There was an active debate as to who was better between Neal and Ekwonu. So far Ekwonu has been the materially better player (mainly due to Neal being so awful).

But even despite the Neal conundrum, Schoen has done a very poor job overall dealing with the O line mess since taking over prior to this offseason. Every free agent he has brought in has been brutal and every draft pick, so far at least, has either looked awful, gotten hurt quickly, or both. The O line coach left a lot to be desired until this offseason as well, and while that may have been Daboll's hire, Daboll is Schoen's hire so ultimately Schoen is responsible.

By the way, I've been a pretty steady Schoen supporter and still am, but I'm not going to gloss over areas where I don't think he has done a good job to this point. Let's hope the decisions made in this most recent offseason lead to better O line play in 2024 and beyond.

[uconnjack8]

I thought it was a pretty good breakdown overall.  Part of me wanted the front 7 ranked as a unit rather than separating DL and LBs into 3 groups. 

Totally disagree with this:

"The Giants haven't had the assets to be able to trade for a package of draft picks that would turbo charge their roster building efforts."

They had the assets.  If Neal and Thibodeaux were considered home runs at this point, this team would have an entirely different outlook.

[Jclayton92]

I think overall a slightly better roster than he inherited after three drafts and FA is pretty poor. Rich posted the five year average PFF support teams and 2022 the year he inherited was the best year for the Giants.

A neutral rating for QB and RB is reasonable but I'll point out that Barkley was four years younger. I believe the DL is worse but the Edge/OLB is stronger. Together that could be a neutral for me.

The one thing you can take away is that we are investing in premium positions. The premium positions on this roster have been addressed, have they all been home runs absolutely not but Wr, Tackle, CB, Edge, and even to a certain extent Qb have been addressed while positions that aren't as big of a premium have shed their high price tags ie Safety, RB, and so on.

[kartanoman]

The one thing you can take away is that we are investing in premium positions. The premium positions on this roster have been addressed, have they all been home runs absolutely not but Wr, Tackle, CB, Edge, and even to a certain extent Qb have been addressed while positions that aren't as big of a premium have shed their high price tags ie Safety, RB, and so on.

A different angle in looking at it but one I believe is important to evaluate in terms of overall value at both a player level and, collectively, at a unit level. We can definitely see the trend move this way since 2021 and, hopefully soon, the results will follow.


Peace!