Great college player but doubt about his size. Tyler Lindenbaum. 6'3" 290 pounds in college. Now a Pro Bowl center.
Best technique in college since Nelson from ND at guard.
We as fans need to learn from our mistakes.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 20, 2024, 07:57:21 PMGreat college player but doubt about his size. Tyler Lindenbaum. 6'3" 290 pounds in college. Now a Pro Bowl center.
Best technique in college since Nelson from ND at guard.
We as fans need to learn from our mistakes.
The Giants need to learn how to scout like the Ravens and maybe they would be playing this weekend.
Peace!
Or just learn how to utilize guys like Zeitler
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 20, 2024, 08:16:12 PMOr just learn how to utilize guys like Zeitler
Zietler was blowing guys off the ball tonight
Quote from: Philosophers on January 20, 2024, 07:57:21 PMGreat college player but doubt about his size. Tyler Lindenbaum. 6'3" 290 pounds in college. Now a Pro Bowl center.
Best technique in college since Nelson from ND at guard.
We as fans need to learn from our mistakes.
Phil: Yeah, the Ravens are IMO a smarter team than most others. ''
But wait,.. we might have the same thing in Jingleheimer Schmitz.
It took Linderbaum a couple of years to get up to "full speed" (and we got Schmitz in the 2nd round).
Bob
Linderbaum finished his rookie season with a 74.7 grade. JMS finished with a 41.4 grade. That's a lot of ground to make up.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 21, 2024, 08:39:47 AMLinderbaum finished his rookie season with a 74.7 grade. JMS finished with a 41.4 grade. That's a lot of ground to make up.
Doc: Good point, although Linderbaum went to a much better OL than Schmitz. I begged here for Linderbaum.
But a lot of members thought the Giants' pick was "just too high" to use on a center.
In any event, I saw a lot of positive signs this year from Schmitz, so I'm still confident in what we got.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 21, 2024, 08:48:26 AMDoc: Good point, although Linderbaum went to a much better OL than Schmitz. I begged here for Linderbaum.
But a lot of members thought the Giants' pick was "just too high" to use on a center.
In any event, I saw a lot of positive signs this year from Schmitz, so I'm still confident in what we got.
Bob
We shall see if a new Coach can make a difference like it did for the many successful players who left this team and turned their careers around. Some of whom had seasons that didn't end two weeks ago.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 21, 2024, 08:39:47 AMLinderbaum finished his rookie season with a 74.7 grade. JMS finished with a 41.4 grade. That's a lot of ground to make up.
I hold out hope he will improve but it is not a given certainly not after what has happened with Neal.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 21, 2024, 09:22:42 AMI hold out hope he will improve but it is not a given certainly not after what has happened with Neal.
I agree. I actually expect JMS to make a big jump in year 2. It's not a given but my expectation is he will at least be an average center and the question is how much better than average he can develop into. Linderbaum is special. I don't expect JMS to be that good but time will tell.
For whatever it's worth, guys, I just read that the coaching staff thinks so highly of Schmitz they expect he will eventually (sooner rather than later) become one of the Giants' team captains. I think that says a lot. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 21, 2024, 10:23:17 AMFor whatever it's worth, guys, I just read that the coaching staff thinks so highly of Schmitz they expect he will eventually (sooner rather than later) become one of the Giants' team captains. I think that says a lot. Bob
Is this the coaching staff that is here or gone?
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 21, 2024, 10:23:17 AMFor whatever it's worth, guys, I just read that the coaching staff thinks so highly of Schmitz they expect he will eventually (sooner rather than later) become one of the Giants' team captains. I think that says a lot. Bob
When half the team are Captains I'm not so sure it's that big a deal 😂
Quote from: Trench on January 21, 2024, 05:33:40 PMWhen half the team are Captains I'm not so sure it's that big a deal 😂
Trench: I'm aware the Giants seem to have more than the average number of captains, but I don't achieving that level in any way would diminish the accomplishment. There are really really good players on the Giants who are not captains. It has to do with getting respect from those who have been around the NFL a lot longer than Schmitz. It's truly a compliment regardless, IMO. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 21, 2024, 10:42:34 PMTrench: I'm aware the Giants seem to have more than the average number of captains, but I don't achieving that level in any way would diminish the accomplishment. There are really really good players on the Giants who are not captains. It has to do with getting respect from those who have been around the NFL a lot longer than Schmitz. It's truly a compliment regardless, IMO. Bob
It most definitely is, you're totally right. Unfortunately the Giants seem to elevate and anoint all the wrong people before they've earned it.
Case in point Daniel Jones and Xavier McKinney. Both named Captains before really doing much of anything. Good players yes, but very young. They would've been better served waiting a few years and it would've meant more. Kind of how LT and Carl Banks were great players but George Martin and Harry Carson easily were the leaders and Captain types.
I openly advocated for the Giants trading down in 2022 with one or both first rounders and securing Linderbaum as one of the picks in the middle of the first round, and was routinely laughed at here.
"You can't spend first round capital on interior linemen when you have top 10 picks" - really? I believe you can, but we often believe gambling on a tackle is better than a sure thing at guard or center. Good teams like the Ravens have been doing this for years, grabbing incredibly polished guys at under-drafted positions.
Not only did they get a ProBowl plug-and-play center, they got Kyle Hamilton earlier in the first at safety (another underappreciated first round position) who turned in a fantastic season as well (4 ints, 3 sacks).
This is how the Giants need to avoid the dreaded "we did just good enough to not be eligible for a top tier quarterback" routine. Stop swinging for the fences and just hit a few singles.
I think Ed hit the nail on the head. We can scout perfectly, but if we don't have the coaches to hone the skills of the players, it's fruitless. We've seen OLinemen come here and get worse, not better. I hope the new coaches can finally help build a good O Line!
Quote from: WheresDayne on January 22, 2024, 12:25:47 PMI think Ed hit the nail on the head. We can scout perfectly, but if we don't have the coaches to hone the skills of the players, it's fruitless. We've seen OLinemen come here and get worse, not better. I hope the new coaches can finally help build a good O Line!
I hope the new coach teaches them to be a unit not just 5 individual pieces.
Quote from: zephirus on January 22, 2024, 11:49:51 AMI openly advocated for the Giants trading down in 2022 with one or both first rounders and securing Linderbaum as one of the picks in the middle of the first round, and was routinely laughed at here.
Lee: Me too. When I heard he went to the Ravens (a top drafting team) I felt really bad for the Giants. Bob
Quote from: Trench on January 22, 2024, 11:25:31 AMIt most definitely is, you're totally right. Unfortunately the Giants seem to elevate and anoint all the wrong people before they've earned it.
Case in point Daniel Jones and Xavier McKinney. Both named Captains before really doing much of anything. Good players yes, but very young. They would've been better served waiting a few years and it would've meant more. Kind of how LT and Carl Banks were great players but George Martin and Harry Carson easily were the leaders and Captain types.
Pretty much every team names their QB as a captain. In Jones case he has been a starter for 5 seasons in a league where careers last 5-10 years more or less. Just how long should the leader of the offense for 5 straight seasons have to wait to meet your rigid threshold? There is nothing wrong with a 4 year veteran being named Captain like McKinney. They are voted by their own players.
LT and Banks were captains after Carson retired in 88. It was a different time with the Giants only naming 1-2 player captain each season.
This was not a post about Tyler L but about a narrow view that he was undersized going into the pros and that he'd be limited. He proved them wrong. Gained real weight but kept his great technique.
We should learn not to go down erroneous paths but consider everything.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 22, 2024, 02:14:21 PMPretty much every team names their QB as a captain. In Jones case he has been a starter for 5 seasons in a league where careers last 5-10 years more or less. Just how long should the leader of the offense for 5 straight seasons have to wait to meet your rigid threshold? There is nothing wrong with a 4 year veteran being named Captain like McKinney. They are voted by their own players.
LT and Banks were captains after Carson retired in 88. It was a different time with the Giants only naming 1-2 player captain each season.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone on the fact they got named Captain. What I am saying is in my opinion it actually placed more pressure on these two guys who as of yet hadn't accomplished much of anything except being starting players. Leaving them under the radar another year or two wouldn't have hurt at all.
Quote from: Trench on January 22, 2024, 03:19:11 PMI'm not disagreeing with anyone on the fact they got named Captain. What I am saying is in my opinion it actually placed more pressure on these two guys who as of yet hadn't accomplished much of anything except being starting players. Leaving them under the radar another year or two wouldn't have hurt at all.
This is an incredible hill you are dying on. I don't think you get how short NFL careers are. And how short Giants defensive players careers are with only DLaw getting an extension by Schoen so far. McKinney is obviously highly respected by his teammates and only Jackson, also a captain, has more experience than him in the secondary. So there isn't another starter in the secondary who would meet your archaic standards.
I agree with the comments about Jones. In his case, IMO, being a "captain" may be mostly an "honorary" title.
I don't know, but suspect, the case of McKinney is different.
Again I don't know, but it is possible McKinney and Daboll are more on the same page about defense than McKinney and Wink were. If true, that added information would give McKinney a "pass" IMO.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 23, 2024, 09:30:09 AMI agree with the comments about Jones. In his case, IMO, being a "captain" may be mostly an "honorary" title.
I don't know, but suspect, the case of McKinney is different.
Again I don't know, but it is possible McKinney and Daboll are more on the same page about defense than McKinney and Wink were. If true, that added information would give McKinney a "pass" IMO.
Bob
The coaches do not choose the captains. They are voted by their fellow players. So nothing "honorary" about them voting for starting QB who had just taken the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. I bet Danny Kanell was voted in as a co-captain in 1998.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 23, 2024, 09:41:42 AMThe coaches do not choose the captains. They are voted by their fellow players. So nothing "honorary" about them voting for starting QB who had just taken the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs. I bet Danny Kanell was voted in as a co-captain in 1998.
TD: My post was unclear.
I know who chooses the captains and agree with the bold part of your comment.
My point is that the starting QB is a captain on just about every NFL team, because players know how important the QB is in the NFL to the team's success, especially in this pass-happy version of the league.
Bob
I think the thing with Linderbaum or any other outlier prospect isn't that they can't succeed, it's more of an issue that outliers tend to succeed less often than those that meet the established criteria for a player. In other words, the exception doesn't make the rule.
Here's an example- Orlando Brown Jr. was in terrible shape and put up terrible numbers at the Combine. He got drafted and has had a relatively successful NFL career (better than most expected). That doesn't mean we should draw a lesson that out-of-shape players and/or poor Combine performers should be sought after. It simply means outliers can succeed; there are no absolutes.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 23, 2024, 10:27:33 AMI think the thing with Linderbaum or any other outlier prospect isn't that they can't succeed, it's more of an issue that outliers tend to succeed less often than those that meet the established criteria for a player. In other words, the exception doesn't make the rule.
Here's an example- Orlando Brown Jr. was in terrible shape and put up terrible numbers at the Combine. He got drafted and has had a relatively successful NFL career (better than most expected). That doesn't mean we should draw a lesson that out-of-shape players and/or poor Combine performers should be sought after. It simply means outliers can succeed; there are no absolutes.
Rich: That's all good, but in the case of Linderbaum I (for one) believed the aspects making him an outlier in the NFL would not prevent him from succeeding, not only because of his excellence in all other measures of a center but also because question marks actually assisted him in elevating other aspects of his game that could prove quite valuable if used appropriately. In other words, the coaching staff did a great job putting him in a position to succeed by taking advantage of his superior mobility (think Jason Kelce). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 23, 2024, 10:43:06 AMRich: That's all good, but in the case of Linderbaum I (for one) believed the aspects making him an outlier in the NFL would not prevent him from succeeding, not only because of his excellence in all other measures of a center but also because his question marks actually assisted him in elevating other aspects of his game that could prove quite valuable if used appropriately. In other words, the coaching staff did a great job putting him in a position to succeed by taking advantage of his superior mobility (think Jason Kelce). Bob
Bob,
You will never hear me disagree about the importance of development when it comes to draft picks.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 23, 2024, 09:18:01 AMThis is an incredible hill you are dying on. I don't think you get how short NFL careers are. And how short Giants defensive players careers are with only DLaw getting an extension by Schoen so far. McKinney is obviously highly respected by his teammates and only Jackson, also a captain, has more experience than him in the secondary. So there isn't another starter in the secondary who would meet your archaic standards.
I assure you I'm not dying on any hill. Just responding to a post during the down time after a sad season.
Just because he is the elder member of a secondary doesn't anoint him a spot as Captain and if the players are simply voting on it then I assure u that isn't always the best way either because many times these things are a popularity contest.
I simply believe too many chefs can spoil the meal. I also believe the head coach should choose his captain(s) and 10 is way too many and defeats the purpose/waters it down in my opinion.
FWIW I 100% agree with Trench. My own view is 7 captains is the upper limit on a 53 man roster enabling:
O: 3 with 1 QB (ideally QB1 or respected veteran QB2), 1 OL and a 1 skill player
D: 3 with 1 DL, 1 LB (ideally the Mike) and 1 DB
ST: 1 ideally a gung-ho cover teams guy
Captains should mainly be respected veterans. It should be earned.
Players should be asked to give their views to their position coaches and position coaches should together nominate a shortlist to the leadership group of HC, DC, OC (STC effectively chooses his guy) for the final choice. The HC has a veto that should rarely if ever be used.
You can't just reverse decades of policy of having coaches naming the captains instead of the players just because you don't like it. ~X(
But we are all in agreement that 10 captains (18.87% of the 53 man roster) is absurd. I did a little research and from 2007 - 2016 3 teams had 5, The 2008, 2013 & 2014 teams. The rest had 3. Sometime after 2017 it increased to the current 10. Was it was a Gettleman thing or Schoen?
I agree having all these captains is ridiculous. The Giants have struggled with a lack of leadership for years. Remember the year Jerry Reese drafted only team captains in order to address the issue? Now they're making everyone and their brother a captain to try to manufacture leadership. These are not smart ways to go about developing leadership. Shortcuts and gimmicks don't work.
Here's a recent tweet from Darius Slayton defending Daniel Jones from being compared to Pat Mahomes.
https://twitter.com/Young_Slay2/status/1749536227357843503?t=OT3Hm-djTyXpoBQjDu5WMA&s=19
Slayton has good intentions with his tweet but his choice of words is revealing. He's offering excuses to justify poor play. The entire Giants organization has been infected with this disease of excuse making for years and it starts at the top. This is not how you learn how to compete and win.
What Slayton and others should be saying is: Pat Mahomes is the gold standard. We, as a team, understand we aren't good enough and that it's up to the people in this room to get better and build a foundation that will allow us to compete with guys like Mahomes. We aren't satisfied with where we are today. It isn't good enough. We have our work cut out for us, but I believe we're up for the challenge.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 23, 2024, 02:25:41 PMYou can't just reverse decades of policy of having coaches naming the captains instead of the players just because you don't like it. ~X(
But we are all in agreement that 10 captains (18.87% of the 53 man roster) is absurd. I did a little research and from 2007 - 2016 3 teams had 5, The 2008, 2013 & 2014 teams. The rest had 3. Sometime after 2017 it increased to the current 10. Was it was a Gettleman thing or Schoen?
There is no decades of policy. The process for selecting team captains is decided by the head coach each year.