Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 09:07:19 AMYet, they still won 11 games and made the playoffs.   This place went crazy when we won 9 games; so, I don't see 11 wins as a failure, despite how they finished.

If OC/DC were the primary issue, they would have struggled out the gate as players were learning the new systems; however, the reverse happened.  Even good teams go through spells; it happens all the time.  Regardless, I suspect they'll win double-digit games again this season, but will wait until Aug to make any real predictions. 

Matt,

I am confused.  The expectation for the Eagles (and this seemed to be a strong consensus) was that they would be returning to the Super Bowl.  How does putting up 11 wins (and making the playoffs) while suffering an embarrassing end-of-season loss to the Giants and immediately getting booted from the playoffs in a butt-kicking by the Bucs suggest the Eagles met expectations?

Quote from: Trench on Today at 09:10:22 AMEvery QB has had flashes of brilliance. That is not a good argument

This comment sort of reflects the issue with discussing Jones.  Uncle Mickey had "showed flashes of brilliance" as a part of an argument.  The Jones critics focused on that part of the argument and first claimed Jones never showed brilliance.  Then, when you show historic accomplishments that any reasonable person would say was a flash of brilliance, the goalposts were moved, and it was claimed failed QBs had shown flashes of brilliance (not sure what that even means in context to UM's original point).  Finally, we have an entire point Uncle Mickey made thrown out, and it's declared the point that Jones has shown flashes of brilliance is now the entire argument, and clearly, that argument is a "bad one."

How can there be quality conversation in conditions like that?

Quote from: Jclayton92 on Today at 09:05:11 AMBut that's what happens when Qbs go to a bad team, they either rise above it or they don't. I don't hear anyone going to bat for Evan Neal or any other offensive player that have equally been failed by being on a team with Daniel Jones, but it's ok for them to all be used as an excuse for him. A 6th year player who still puts up advanced stats like a backup in year 6. Just wild that some can't see Jones is a huge reason for the bad offense.

Jess,

QB's rising above terrible situations is extremely rare.  Sometimes, what appears to be a QB rising above a bad situation is more illusion than reality.  The Texans and CJ Stroud is a perfect example.  The 2022 Texans were a terrible team.  Yet, between FA additions, an extremely good draft, and a major coaching upgrade, the 2023 Texans were much better regardless of the addition of CJ Stroud. 

I guess you can look at first-overall pick QB like Lawerence or highly touted Herbert as players who put up pretty good stats (although in situations considerably better than Jones had).  Still, while their raw stats were pretty good (although in the case of Lawerence, they are on par with DJ's), their team's success didn't reflect their QB's success

@DaveBrown74 and @kingm56

Remember last year when everyone ignored the Eagles' losing both their OC and DC and predicted a repeated trip to the Super Bowl? The Cowboys lost their very talented DC this past offseason (along with a number of veteran starters). Those sorts of losses tend to go under the radar but are often the most impactful.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on May 03, 2024, 06:39:32 PMWish the Giants had the problem of too many draft picks they wanted to re-sign that would command huge salaries.  Although, somehow, with the worst record in the NFC for the last decade they are still up against cap wise

The only way a team sustains cap health, long-term, is to consistently draft well.  That has not been the case for the Giants for a long time.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on Today at 08:31:24 AMJust a note, that calculation is preliminary.   If, for example, McKinney gets hurt in camp and doesn't play next season, there would be noncompliance pick awarded (pretty sure aboutbthat).

Very true, player performances are part of the comp formula

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 08:14:00 AMVery interesting, and I'm not surprised that the Rams are sophisticated on this stuff. They are absolutely one of the most progressive and forward-thinking teams in the league.

We (meaning the organization) on the other hand continue to employ head trainers who learned their trade during the Nixon administration, and then when our guys drop like flies at an alarming rate every single year for well over a decade, we shrug our shoulders and chalk it up to random bad luck.

If you have a subscription to the Athletic, I highly recommend their two-part series, finding Rams.  The Rams gave a reporter massive access to the Rams process during a season and the article provides great insights.   I remember it against "Finding Giants" where my most memorable scene was some old Giants scouting trying to scam free candy from some college football program.

https://theathletic.com/5461276/2024/05/02/nfl-draft-scouting-process-rams-behind-the-scenes/

https://theathletic.com/5468042/2024/05/03/rams-nfl-draft-scouting-behind-the-scenes/

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on Today at 08:22:09 AMRich,

Is Jones himself responsible for any of his own failures?

Would you say it is "fair" to blame a QB's struggles entirely on everyone else and not hold the player accountable for any of it?

Yes, but it's frustrating to hear fans talk like Jones has been put in a normal NFL QB situation.  Jones has had shortcomings; like any QB (potentially more), Jones has shortcomings.  It's just frustrating that some fans seem not to acknowledge the terrible (and it's really been some of the worst in the NFL) support he has received in his NFL career.

Why do I feel like they are operating light-years ahead of the oft-injured Giants?



https://x.com/clt_ny/status/1786571195623538845

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 03, 2024, 07:52:30 PMIf we don't finish last we'll be third. That is our realistic ceiling.

I have to think the Eagles are the odds-on favorite to win the division.  I am not sure Dallas won't look very diminished this season.   Washington's standings will depend on how quickly all the draft picks and free agents can come together.

I think if everything falls right, the Giants could top out at 2nd in the division

Quote from: gregf on May 03, 2024, 09:37:34 PMWinner: Kayvon, help on the other side. Jones. JMS,  vets to help with stunts next to him. Bellinger,  chance to be a starter. 
Loser: Ojularri. Drx, nit enough DT quality or depth. Neal, might get pushed out ar RT.

It's funny; I have seen many list Ojulari as a loser.  I wonder if perhaps being a backup, Ojulari will finally stay healthy and perhaps find a niche (or at least that's what I hope)

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 06:37:46 PMWinner Pinnock, Bobby Ok, and Flott- Pinnock because he gets to stay at FS and continue to grow with Nubin at Strong. Flott because drafting Phillips gets him another Shot at boundaOK, Bobby Ok will thrive with all the talent around him on the front 7, and only get better.

Losers- Belton, Bellinger, and Gray- Drafting a safety let's Belton know that he will only get snaps if he beats Pinnock. Since Bellinger has been drafted we traded for a TE, and drafted another. I think he's the first person at risk of losing his job because Theo is a better talent now than Bellinger is now. Gray got stuck in the doghouse and never got out, maybe taking KR duties away finally will let him focus.

Jess,

Those are some interesting observations.  I never considered Bellinger at risk of losing his job (I still think of pre-injury rookie Bellinger), but you very well may be right


As for Flott, I thought Phillips is very similar to Flott, so I wonder if perhaps Flott may be in jeopardy of making the roster, especially if they signed a veteran with similar inside/outside flexibility

Quote from: kingm56 on Today at 06:31:52 AMDid you bother researching your own question? Clearly not...

Eli Manning
Without Question, Eli's best season was 2011, the only year he received All-Pro votes, was a Pro Bowler, and won a SB.  That year, PFF ranked the NYG Giants Oline #31 (#32 pass protection).  His running game was dead-last...he and JPP carried that team to the playoffs.
 
Here's the exert from PFF:

Yes, they won the Super Bowl, but they did so in spite of a line that sieved pressure throughout the year. Our lowest-ranked pass protecting line had problems all over, but nowhere as bad as at the tackle positions (especially once Will Beatty was lost for the year). It wasn't just the tackles however, with every member of the Giants' line earning a negative grade. This explains the drop-off in the run game and makes the season that Eli Manning had all the more remarkable.

Best Player: Before his season was cut short, Will Beatty (-1.2) was having a good first year starting ... outside of Trent Cole showing him what for in Week 11.

Worst Player: It's hard to look past David Diehl (-48.1) who was terrible at guard, and even worse at tackle. His on field performance is simply unacceptable, giving up a ridiculous nine sacks, eight hits and 48 hurries during the regular season.

Tom Brady
It's complete myth Tom Brady enjoyed top-tier protection throughout his career.  In 2014, 15 and 16, the onlines were bad...REAL BAD.  During that span, he continued to play at an AP/MVP level,.

Enjoy the PFF exerts:

2014:
23. New England Patriots

Pass Blocking Ranking: 31st, Run Blocking Ranking: 8th, Penalties Ranking: 19th

Stud: Our second-team All-Pro right tackle Sebastian Vollmer had himself another good year and avoided the injury bug for a change. Bonus.

Dud: The 306 snaps that Jordan Devey managed were brutal to watch at times. Not much of a pass blocker, he didn't exactly light it up in the run game either.

Breakdown: Nate Solder had a bad year by his standards and the interior gave up way too much pressure. They did bloody some rookies, but this group appeared a unit in transition, with the team trying to patch up something just good enough to not harm their skill players too much.

2015:
25. NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS
Pass-blocking rank: 31st

Run-blocking rank: 12th

Penalties rank: 15th

Stud: Far from perfect, but Josh Kline looked the part when he got on the field.

Dud: Pick your poison here. None were truly atrocious, but most were well below average. None more so than Cameron Fleming, who allowed way too much pressure.

Summary: The good news is that, where they struggle (pass protection), they have a quarterback good enough to overcome it. But it was still so bad that you wonder how much easier (and better) life for Tom Brady could have been with better protection.
 
"I think we've established how atrocious the New England Patriots offensive line performed in 2015. Almost every single player to suit up on the line was hurt for some extended period of time, and the team had to rely on a series of young, inexperienced, and hurt players to protect the best player in the NFL."

According to Pro Football Focus, the Patriots offensive line ranked 31st in the league in pass protection, ahead of only the San Diego Chargers.
 
Key Takeaways:
1. Both the 2015 Pats and 2011 Giants won SBs with PFFs 31st and 32 ranked pass blocking olines
2. Prime Eli Manning was absolutely capable, and DID, overcome terrible oline play
3. Tom Brady was an MVP/AP/SP Winner with the NFLs "31 ranked pass protection
4. Tom Brady was able to overcome terrible oline play
   2007: Brady was sacked 21 times
   2008: Brady injured, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times with the same Oline and Coach
   2009: Brady returns and the line reverts to giving up just 16 sacks
5. Over the past few months, I've watched fans incorrectly attribute sacks allowed to the Oline, without giving any consideration to the QB role in that stat; QBs who process poorly are sacked more...is that really a surprise?

I could provide a lot more data points, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of objective or subjective data will change it.  Regardless, your statement regarding Eli's and Brady's reliance on the oline has objectively been proven false. 

2011 was a bit of an anomaly.   The Giants were just 9-7 during the regular season.  Frankly, they didn't even look as good as their record most of the time.  However, health and the playoffs inspired much better play from the offensive line, which helped propel the Giants to their 4th Super Bowl trophy.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on Today at 01:12:32 AMYou're forgetting the offsetting that occurs when the Giants signed players. Runyon effectively cancelled out Saquon with a similar AAV.

This! it's not just who a team loses but who the team signs.  That's why the Giants would have been far better-served trading Saquan and McKinney last season at the deadline than letting them walk.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on May 03, 2024, 08:40:01 PMAll of those accomplishments you listed happened as a rookie besides the coming back against a horrible Arizona team. Most of the people he was listed with outside Peyton and Russell haven't exactly taken the league by storm.

Kinda like the "how it started, how it's going" meme.

As a Rookie he also has the 3rd most turnovers for a rookie in NFL history with 5 less than Deshon Kizer and 2 less than Geno Smith.

100s of QB have played against bad teams, and never had they done what DJ did.   Look, in the end, you and @kingm56 and the other critics of Jones could ultimately be proven correct in that he will never be a quality starting quarterback.  In fact, with every season that they screw the young man up, it's looking more and more that DJ is never going to succeed.

That said, I would appreciate it if we try to be fair.  There have been flashes of brilliance by Jones; that is something most reasonable people would agree.   Flashes of brilliance don't mean Jones will ultimately be successful, so why not just concede the more than fair point?   It's like the other claim I hear from some of the critics, claiming the Giants have no one to throw them the ball.  As Jordan Raanan says, that's silly.  Jones has his flaws, but he is also an NFL thrower.  It's not like Jones is some little leaguer trying to play in the majors.

I don't think it hurts your case to concede the positives of the man.  If anything, it gives your opinions more validity because it shows you are capable of seeing and acknowledging the good and the bad.  If someone is only willing to see what supports their beliefs and finds excuses to dismiss anything else,  I tend not to value those opinions very highly as they are formed with a flawed process.

So we don't have to agree, but we all should find common ground in acknowledging the good and the bad.