Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 02:05:30 PMJones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.

Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th

Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th.  He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277

I am not sure what is so funny.

Because you're calling it a career year when he's averaging a 180 a game and 1 Td... Everything you just highlighted is because Jones is only throwing it on average 17-27 times a game. We are 27th in the league in pass attempts at 414. So you saying he isn't turning it over and has a high completion rate because we aren't throwing it like other teams. He is the Quarterback and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the league due in part to him. His average completion is 4.8 air yards. When you only throw the ball 4-6 yards down field on average every Qb would have great numbers.. one of the 2-3 worst passing offenses in the league but as long as 17 passes a game are efficient then it's a career year. He'll end up with the same numbers he's had every year, Daboll/Kafka juat made him more efficient because they don't want him throwing the ball unless we absolutely have to.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 22, 2022, 02:26:03 PMBecause you're calling it a career year when he's averaging a 180 a game and 1 Td... Everything you just highlighted is because Jones is only throwing it on average 17-27 times a game. We are 27th in the league in pass attempts at 414. So you saying he isn't turning it over and has a high completion rate because we aren't throwing it like other teams. He is the Quarterback and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the league due in part to him. His average completion is 4.8 air yards. When you only throw the ball 4-6 yards down field on average every Qb would have great numbers.. one of the 2-3 worst passing offenses in the league but as long as 17 passes a game are efficient then it's a career year. He'll end up with the same numbers he's had every year, Daboll/Kafka juat made him more efficient because they don't want him throwing the ball unless we absolutely have to.

I'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.

Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.

Would we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?

Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 02:41:08 PMWould we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?

Obviously winning is what ultimately matters, but yes, I think stats do matter.

I know many people scoff at the idea of "stats", but I look at them simply as quantitative data of what has transpired on the field. I think when people look at stats without appropriate context or look at too small of a sample size and draw conclusions, that is when they get stats wrong. And I also don't think stats by themselves tell you all that you need to know about a player. However to suggest they don't matter at all is not an idea that I'm on board with.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 22, 2022, 03:09:37 PMObviously winning is what ultimately matters, but yes, I think stats do matter.

I know many people scoff at the idea of "stats", but I look at them simply as quantitative data of what has transpired on the field. I think when people look at stats without appropriate context or look at too small of a sample size and draw conclusions, that is when they get stats wrong. And I also don't think stats by themselves tell you all that you need to know about a player. However to suggest they don't matter at all is not an idea that I'm on board with.

I agree 100%. Rarely do I take things at face value. There's usually more to the story.

If a QB's stat line has 4 INTs we'd think he had a horrible game. But if those INTs all bounced off of his receivers' hands and was caught by a defender, the QB doesn't look as bad.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 02:05:30 PMJones is tied for the league's fewest interceptions with four among qualified passers (at least 14 pass attempts per team's games played) and has only lost three fumbles this season. He also has the NFL's lowest interception rate (interceptions/pass attempts) at 1.0%.

Jones is posting career highs in completion percentage (66%) and passer rating (90.5). He ranks 12th and 17th, respectively, in the NFL in these categories. His 2,694 passing yards are 16th in the league. He also has his highest QBR at 57.1, which ranks 12th

Jones also set a new career high (with three games remaining) in rushing yards 583, which ranks him 5th.  He ranks 13th in total QB yards with 3,277

I am not sure what is so funny.

I thought of those stats when I saw this Tweet

https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1606010013310394368

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of statistics to bolster weak arguments, "one of the best, and best-known" critiques of applied statistics. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.


I use stats and measures quite frequently.   So I am not going to say stats don't matter.   Still, stats can be used to help clarify, but they often can be misused (intentionally or unintentionally) in a manner that creates a false impression.

When you are evaluating a QB, I think there is little value in what I like to call raw stats.  Things like total yardage and TDs and the like.   Those tend to be skewed by circumstances such as how pass-heavy an offense is, how many times the ball is thrown,n or even how good or bad a defense is (is the team in shootouts or having to play catchup).

Personally, I prefer ratios (like TDs to INTs or yards per attempt) and established metrics like QB rating, QBR, and PFF grades (admittedly not a stat).  I mean, there is some small value in the raw stats, but I often see their importance overstated. 

Of course, I am not the biggest fan of QB comparisons in general because the three support pillars (coaching/scheme, protection, and receiving targets) can greatly skew the stats used for comparison purposes (while being a challenge to compensate for).  Still, I do appreciate that in the grand scheme of things comparisons do become necessary.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2022, 02:16:42 PMYou have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.

I see that Ed, and completely get that, it's a valid point. His rushing has been really good this season, but as a passer in my opinion nothing has changed. He has not progressed as a thrower of the football this season and even regressed. He doesn't get as many opportunities to throw it and so his efficiency and turnovers are a positive but overall his passing as a whole is secerly lackluster.

Quote from: T200 on December 22, 2022, 02:39:59 PMI'm pleased with his performance this year, all things offense considered. I'm fine with his being a game manager, making good decisions (for the most part) and his legs aren't to be dismissed.

Aside from limiting the turnovers, my biggest question mark for him this season was his health. He checked that box for me.

Im even ok with numbers if we're not acting like he's the end all be all or that he's done some miraculous feat warranting 30 million a year. His passing Imo is meh, it's not good enough, and if we are looking at Jones as a stop gap to us finding the answer I'm 150% on board with that. I'm just not ok with acting like he's the long term answer when he's clearly not if that makes sense.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 22, 2022, 02:16:42 PMYou have to add in his rushing yards and TD's and 1st downs running. He may wind up with near 4000 yards total. As of now he only has 4 Interceptions and has cut down considerably in turnovers. So Rushing and YAC is a career high. 3300 passing and that's also a CH. 66% completion % and that's a CH. QR 90.5 and QBR 57.1 and those are CH's.

You'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs.  I could be wrong but don't think it does.

Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 02:41:08 PMWould we rather throw the ball all over the field to one of the worst receiving corps in the league just so we can have higher passing stats? Or have a game plan that gives us the best opportunity to win? Last time I checked we are 8-5-1. So do stats really matter?

The idea that it's the worst receiving corps in the league is an opinion.  We don't know exactly why the Giants aren't throwing it all over the field.  It could be Jones, the O-Line, Receivers or a combination of all three.

Whatever the case Jones has proven to be an extremely efficient game manager.  And as you pointed out it's helped the Giants get to being 8-5-1.

Quote from: MightyGiants on December 22, 2022, 03:17:02 PMI thought of those stats when I saw this Tweet

https://twitter.com/SteveV_NFL/status/1606010013310394368

Here's a crazy stat.  Fields has had 15 fumbles, most in the league.  But he has only lost 1.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs.  I could be wrong but don't think it does.

The idea that it's the worst receiving corps in the league is an opinion.  We don't know exactly why the Giants aren't throwing it all over the field.  It could be Jones, the O-Line, Receivers or a combination of all three.

Whatever the case Jones has proven to be an extremely efficient game manager.  And as you pointed out it's helped the Giants get to being 8-5-1.

See that's part of the problem, before the season started daboll wanted Jones to "rip it" "Air it out and attack" and we've yet to see any of that from a throwing perspective. So we're in year 4 with Jones and still don't know if he can thrive in a traditional dropback offense. Just a month ago Gms and executives around the league were quoted saying that he shouldn't be retained because of his inability to win in throwing situations, even in the scaled back nontraditional offense Daboll and Kafka had to install. So if other executives think that, then it's just curious why daboll and Co went away from the rip it, attack, and went to a nontraditional offense. Because what we are left with is just more of the same instead of seeing that he can really attack, force the ball down field, sustain multiple drives through the air, and win putting up points that way.

Quote from: Rambo89 on December 22, 2022, 04:25:29 PMYou'd have to do that with every QB in the league and when you do that with the number of athletic QBs in the league I don't think it helps Jones in that regard with where he ranks when you combine the passing and rushing yards for QBs.  I could be wrong but don't think it does.

He's 16th in passing yards and 13th in passing and rushing yards combined.

Are we really gonna say the Giants don't have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL? I mean can we at least be objective?

If you want to argue Ravens - fine but they have andrews at least. There's really not a group other than them that are as bad as ours.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on December 22, 2022, 04:46:17 PMHe's 16th in passing yards and 13th in passing and rushing yards combined.

Ok, so again middle of the road QB.  Which is fine.  It's not a $25-$30+ AAV QB.

Quote from: AP44 on December 22, 2022, 05:06:23 PMAre we really gonna say the Giants don't have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL? I mean can we at least be objective?

If you want to argue Ravens - fine but they have andrews at least. There's really not a group other than them that are as bad as ours.

What we do know that with this QB, OL and WR's the Giants have one of the least productive passing offenses in football.  I don't think adding a #1 Playmaking WR will make as big of a difference as others do.  For me the screaming about the WR's is what the fire Jason Garrett upgrade the offensive line was a year ago.  Yet here we are having a similar discussion.