How does something like this happen?!?!
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/12C2F/production/_119074867_surfgetty.jpg)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592827
(https://cdn.winknews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/surfside-florida-partial-building-collapse-062421-from-distance.jpg)
(https://s2.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20210624&t=2&i=1566827871&w=780&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&sq=&r=2021-06-24T115312Z_40865_MRPRC2Y6O9QE3VN_RTRMADP_0_MIAMI-BUILDING)
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Up to 51 people may be missing. Here is a before and after photo
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E4qPPMJWEAc5BGn?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/06/24/10/44617687-9720381-image-a-25_1624527818284.jpg)
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 24, 2021, 08:36:34 AM
How does something like this happen?!?!
Sinkhole and paid off building inspector seems to be the best bet right now.
What I have heard is that the building was built on reclaimed wetlands and there was a study that showed the ground was sinking at an alarming rate back in the 90s
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 24, 2021, 03:53:28 PM
What I have heard is that the building was built on reclaimed wetlands and there was a study that showed the ground was sinking at an alarming rate back in the 90s
Stupid is as stupid does... :yes: :yes: :yes:
there could be nearly 100 people dead in that pile of rubble, this is a pretty tragic event
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 25, 2021, 08:25:03 AM
there could be nearly 100 people dead in that pile of rubble, this is a pretty tragic event
Agreed, it is beyond awful. Lots of children too.
this really brings it home
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2021/06/24/surfside-collapse-loved-ones-name-those-they-say-are-missing/
I have a feeling this disaster could have ramifications far beyond this one building. It's possible there are other buildings with similar risks all over the area
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cause-miami-condo-collapse-unclear-experts-say-barrier-islands-present-n1272316
It's now up to 159 missing
I wonder if there is a paper trail somewhere that will lead to either gross negligence on the part of an inspector or superintendent, or, worse, that someone in a senior position in the building management company or an owner somehow knowingly looked the other way or otherwise circumvented the system out of greed or laziness.
Buildings don't just collapse like that on their own. Someone somewhere had to know that things weren't right structurally.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 26, 2021, 02:46:22 AM
I wonder if there is a paper trail somewhere that will lead to either gross negligence on the part of an inspector or superintendent, or, worse, that someone in a senior position in the building management company or an owner somehow knowingly looked the other way or otherwise circumvented the system out of greed or laziness.
Buildings don't just collapse like that on their own. Someone somewhere had to know that things weren't right structurally.
These are Condos so each unit is individually owned and the building is managed by a Condo Association (usually elected by or appointed by the Condo owners). In Miami (or Florida, I am not sure) they are required to have a building inspection every 40 years. This building was in the process of performing this inspection. Hopefully, there is some information that was gleaned from the inspection that might help figure out how this terrible tragedy happened.
From my experiences and a general fascination with how disasters happen, I would wager it was a multiple breakdown type of thing. Usually (but not always), horrible disasters are not the result of just one factor, but rather multiple factors
I just read three NY Times articles on the collapse. It seems like the building was going to have a multi-million dollar renovation to repair cracked and spalling concrete and rust from steel structures underneath like columns and rebar.
After reading these articles, this may be an issue with having a building so close to the ocean. The constant salt in the air causes corrosion of any exposed metal like the steel rebar (metal rods used to give concrete strength) and even the steel columns.
It's possible that this was an issue of the building rusting away to the point of failure.
It's also possible that improper renovation in some of the units could have cut through structural support columns.
It's going to take months to figure out what happened (maybe even longer).
MG,
Thanks for the comments/info. Informative and helpful - appreciate it.
Tragically, I have to assume that most if not all of the missing have probably perished by now. If your were trapped after the collapse, even if you were not seriously injured in any way, you can't really go more than three days without water, and it's probably less than that in what I would assume to be pretty significant heat.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 26, 2021, 10:36:19 AM
MG,
Thanks for the comments/info. Informative and helpful - appreciate it.
Tragically, I have to assume that most if not all of the missing have probably perished by now. If your were trapped after the collapse, even if you were not seriously injured in any way, you can't really go more than three days without water, and it's probably less than that in what I would assume to be pretty significant heat.
I agree, I have little hope they will find any survivors
This is one of the better articles I have read
https://www.kake.com/story/44198811/as-engineers-hunt-for-answers-in-the-surfside-building-collapse-signs-point-to-the-buildings-lower-reaches
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 29, 2021, 02:29:44 PM
This is one of the better articles I have read
https://www.kake.com/story/44198811/as-engineers-hunt-for-answers-in-the-surfside-building-collapse-signs-point-to-the-buildings-lower-reaches
Very good article indeed. It seems pretty clear now that the primary (or at least one of the main) source of the collapse was at the base. This article definitely provides a lot more depth around the various theories.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 30, 2021, 02:20:35 AM
Very good article indeed. It seems pretty clear now that the primary (or at least one of the main) source of the collapse was at the base. This article definitely provides a lot more depth around the various theories.
My best GUESS at this point is that the foundation gave way. I am thinking rising water tables washed away and softened the ground the piles had been driven into
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 30, 2021, 08:01:51 AM
My best GUESS at this point is that the foundation gave way. I am thinking rising water tables washed away and softened the ground the piles had been driven into
I read an article that the long term prospects of this barrier island as well other barrier islands are not good in the long run due to the fact of rising sea levels and the fact the buildings were built on limestone. Limestone absorb water like a sponge. As the water table rises there will be damage to structures. There will be nothing you could do to stop the limestone from absorbing water. Building a barrier sea wall won
Hey, since climate change is a hoax, let's build a few more buildings there. /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/
I understand they are going use explosives to bring down the rest of the building. I have been reading that engineers are seeing less rebar than the drawings call for. Not likely to take down the building alone, but likely one of the multiple factors that are responsible
Once they take down the rest of the building, search and rescue/recovery (whatever they still want to call it) will become a lot easier, as they were always in fear that the rest of the building might come down on top of the rescue workers.
Florida Condo owners may be in a world of hurt moving forward
QuoteThe partial collapse on June 24 of Champlain Towers South in Surfside has plunged older beachside condos and high-rise buildings like it into a swirl of uncertainty. Local government officials and condo associations are rushing inspections, some of them long overdue. Insurance companies are demanding proof that aging buildings have been evaluated or are threatening to cut off coverage.
And real estate agents across the region are bracing for how the disaster might ripple through an otherwise scorching housing market.
They finally officially changed operations from rescue to recovery. In my opinion, they should have made this switch a bit sooner. I think they were giving the relatives of the victims false hope. Plus, in rescue you might take risks that you simply wouldn't take with recovery
Quote from: MightyGiants on July 08, 2021, 01:06:55 PM
They finally officially changed operations from rescue to recovery. In my opinion, they should have made this switch a bit sooner. I think they were giving the relatives of the victims false hope. Plus, in rescue you might take risks that you simply wouldn't take with recovery
I agree and have thought this myself. Without water you're looking at maybe a three day window, and I bet it's less that that in the South Florida heat. I suspect it dragged on for as long as it did due to the immense pressure from above to be seen to be doing absolutely everything possible to rescue any possible survivors, including running the effort much longer than they otherwise might with less spotlight on them.
That's not a good reason of course, but I suspect it was the reason.
Maybe they tacitly conduted operations in a way that didn't put the responders at quite as much personal risk as they would be if it were a true all-out effort.