Big Blue Huddle

I have always felt like sleeping is an under-discussed and perhaps under-prioritized topic relative to the proportion of our lives we devote to it.

I am curious about people's tendencies, philosophies, an techniques of sleeping as it pertains to general health, and perhaps even more importantly if anyone had any tips or recommendations towards getting better quality sleep.

I am someone who aims to get seven-plus hours of sleep a night but often lands on something closer to six. Even on weekends, when I have no pressing need to get up at any particular set time, I find that I usually wake up after 6 or maybe 6.5 hours. That's assuming I had a solid night's sleep the night before. If I am overtired from the previous night, I often will sleep seven or even sometimes eight hours. For me to sleep more than seven hours, that will usually involve waking up and then deliberately trying (and succeeding) to fall back asleep and managing to get another hour or two at that point. But 6/6.5 hours seems like the sweet spot for me. I would prefer that it be seven or seven-plus, but my body does not seem to need seven if it is well-rested from the night before.

I don't presently take any medication for sleeping. I have had things prescribed in the past, but typically the only time I take anything is if I am taking a long flight. I have tried to use non-chemical means to augment my quality of sleep, although I am certainly not adamantly opposed to medication if my techniques ever fail in the future.

Here are a few things I have prioritized that have helped me (1) fall asleep, and (2) get better overall sleep:


(1) I am a big believer in the 4-7-8 breathing technique. For those who are unfamiliar with it, it is pretty simple. Once you are in a comfortable sleeping position, you breathe in through your nose for four seconds. Then you hold your breath for seven seconds. And then you slowly breathe out through your mouth for eight seconds. You repeat this over and over, and I have found that I am typically asleep after anywhere from four to 10 repetitions. Sometimes it takes longer, but that is usually the zone. There are plenty of youtubes and articles about this technique online. The idea behind it is the deep breathing has an automatically physiological calming effect, and when I do it, I feel my heart rate instantly declining noticeably. Also, because you have to keep close count of the seconds in your mind, your mind is forced to move away from any thoughts or stressors that may have been there before. So you have both a physical and mental response to this technique. I do it almost every night, and I find that it really helps.

(2) Another thing that I care about greatly is having a cool bedroom. I guess everyone is different on this front, but I think a cooler-than-room temperature bedroom leads me to sleep better throughout the night and also to have an easier time falling asleep. I like to have the room at about 68-70 instead of something like 72-74.

(3) A third thing that I prioritize is my level of fullness before bed. A good rule of thumb is to not eat anything for at least two hours prior to going to sleep. Ideally longer than that. But from what I have gathered, if you go to bed with a full stomach, since your body is working to process the food, that is going to adversely impact the quality of your sleep. I try to go to bed with a fully digested stomach as often as possible and, if anything, slightly on the hungry side.

(4) An obvious one is exercise. There is no question that I sleep better on days where I have exercised versus days where I didn't.

(5) Another obvious one is alcohol. Drinking right before bed or even within an hour or two is not a good idea if you're trying to get a good night's sleep. Depending on our social lives or other factors, many of us still do it at least occasionally, but as a base practice I feel it is better to go to bed alcohol free.

(6) I have always been more of a back sleeper, but over the past year or so I have tried to sleep more on my side. You tend to snore much less often on your side, and for those who suffer from not just routine snoring but also sleep apnea, side-sleeping is always recommended if you want to avoid the CPAP machine. Although I will say that people I know who have this condition and went for the CPAP machine all say they wish they had done it sooner.

(7) It is always recommended to not be in your bed at all other than for sleeping or for intimate activity. Lying around in bed all morning, or getting into bed 2-3 hours before your intended bedtime, while tempting, is considered not ideal for promoting the best sleep health. I know that insomnia sufferers are usually advised to actually get out of bed and go into a different room and sit up doing quite activity like reading until the sleepiness comes over them again, rather than just lying in bed wide awake. I am pretty good about all of the above, but I could be better.

(8) The one thing I don't do enough of that I really should try to make more of an effort on, because I know it is important, is completely getting rid of all screen use (phone, TV, and laptop) at least an hour before bed. This is one of the basic tenets of proper "sleep hygiene." I don't usually do this myself, but I know I should.

(9) I think sleeping is something worth investing in, not just with respect to the above practices, but also financially. Several years ago my wife and I needed a new mattress, and we decided to "pay up" for the new one. We ended up spending several thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact number, but it was at least triple what we had paid the last time. We did plenty of research and spent hours in the showroom before making up our minds. I have to say, I feel like this was one of the best investments we ever made. Having a quality mattress and good quality pillows and bedding is a massive, massive difference maker. A cheap, sagging, or uncomfortable mattress with old, flimsy pillows really has an adverse impact on your quality of life relative to what a really high quality sleeping setup brings to the table. There are a lot of things in life one can belt-tighten on to save money, but in my opinion getting a restful night's sleep every night should not be one of them. It never will for me again.


Those were the main things I was able to think of off the top of my head. I would love to hear anyone else's thoughts and/or advice on this important health-related subject.

DB: Great post.  I too get about 6 or 6 1/2 hours of sleep most of the time.  I've never heard about most of the other stuff you discussed, but it's very interesting and I'm going to look into it further.  Thanks. Bob

Great topic:

Quote(1) I am a big believer in the 4-7-8 breathing technique. For those who are unfamiliar with it, it is pretty simple. Once you are in a comfortable sleeping position, you breathe in through your nose for four seconds. Then you hold your breath for seven seconds. And then you slowly breathe out through your mouth for eight seconds. You repeat this over and over, and I have found that I am typically asleep after anywhere from four to 10 repetitions. Sometimes it takes longer, but that is usually the zone. There are plenty of youtubes and articles about this technique online. The idea behind it is the deep breathing has an automatically physiological calming effect, and when I do it, I feel my heart rate instantly declining noticeably. Also, because you have to keep close count of the seconds in your mind, your mind is forced to move away from any thoughts or stressors that may have been there before. So you have both a physical and mental response to this technique. I do it almost every night, and I find that it really helps.

Humans naturally breathe thru their noses and exhale thru their mouths.  This is basic to meditation as well.  And I've found it more relaxing to let my stomach expand more so than my chest.

Quote(3) A third thing that I prioritize is my level of fullness before bed. A good rule of thumb is to not eat anything for at least two hours prior to going to sleep. Ideally longer than that. But from what I have gathered, if you go to bed with a full stomach, since your body is working to process the food, that is going to adversely impact the quality of your sleep. I try to go to bed with a fully digested stomach as often as possible and, if anything, slightly on the hungry side.

I avoid both being full or hungry as hunger tends to keep me up.

Quote(4) An obvious one is exercise. There is no question that I sleep better on days where I have exercised versus days where I didn't.

I can go about two days anymore without exercise else I get restless and have too much energy at night.

Quote(6) I have always been more of a back sleeper, but over the past year or so I have tried to sleep more on my side. You tend to snore much less often on your side, and for those who suffer from not just routine snoring but also sleep apnea, side-sleeping is always recommended if you want to avoid the CPAP machine. Although I will say that people I know who have this condition and went for the CPAP machine all say they wish they had done it sooner.

I used to sleep on my stomach and then side and now back.  No idea why. 

Quote(7) It is always recommended to not be in your bed at all other than for sleeping or for intimate activity. Lying around in bed all morning, or getting into bed 2-3 hours before your intended bedtime, while tempting, is considered not ideal for promoting the best sleep health. I know that insomnia sufferers are usually advised to actually get out of bed and go into a different room and sit up doing quite activity like reading until the sleepiness comes over them again, rather than just lying in bed wide awake. I am pretty good about all of the above, but I could be better.

I have to coax my wife all the time into getting out of bed on weekends and staying out until bed time.

Quote(8) The one thing I don't do enough of that I really should try to make more of an effort on, because I know it is important, is completely getting rid of all screen use (phone, TV, and laptop) at least an hour before bed. This is one of the basic tenets of proper "sleep hygiene." I don't usually do this myself, but I know I should.

I've read its also good to stay away from screens for the first hour or so of the morning.  Maybe not sleep related but its best not to go directly to the screen in the morning.  Those of us who are work from home types these days may be experiencing more exposure to electronic at both ends of the day. 

Quote(9) I think sleeping is something worth investing in, not just with respect to the above practices, but also financially. Several years ago my wife and I needed a new mattress, and we decided to "pay up" for the new one. We ended up spending several thousand dollars. I don't remember the exact number, but it was at least triple what we had paid the last time. We did plenty of research and spent hours in the showroom before making up our minds. I have to say, I feel like this was one of the best investments we ever made. Having a quality mattress and good quality pillows and bedding is a massive, massive difference maker. A cheap, sagging, or uncomfortable mattress with old, flimsy pillows really has an adverse impact on your quality of life relative to what a really high quality sleeping setup brings to the table. There are a lot of things in life one can belt-tighten on to save money, but in my opinion getting a restful night's sleep every night should not be one of them. It never will for me again.

Absolutely.

I have no great information to add, but I stay up until 11:30 every night (sometimes it varies, but only slightly later) and am up by 6:30 - 7:00. Since I'm retired, I don't set an alarm clock. I wake up a little bit and tell myself it's time to get out of bed. Turn on the coffee pot, check the stock market for pre-trading, read several on-line newspapers, check this forum, make plans for moving stocks around for the opening bell

Experience tells me that a good ole round of hearty love making before bedtime will put any man to sleep in a hurry...even if she wants to talk afterwards - LOL

Now in my advanced age, I normally read for a half hour or so and take a slug of NyQuil. I'm asleep in seconds and it's a very sound sleep...unless my girlfriend takes my covers  ~X(

I read an article the other day that I shared with my mother who has a hard time falling asleep called the "Military Method". I also tell her that people with higher intelligence have a harder time falling asleep because they can't shut their minds down. So she like to quip, "how come you fall sleep so easily?" which is a good point. I tell her it's my "good living - no bad conscience to gnaw at me" - she laughs because she knows better

Anyway, this is called the military method where sleep for soldiers is imperative

(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq941whq/sleep.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I don't know if this is so, but I was told as you get older, and I am older, you do/don't need as much sleep?

Myself, me, and the missus, always watch the monologues of Jimmy Kimmel and then Steven Colbert just about every night. She then goes to sleep and I stay up a bit longer to watch something on the DVR. I usually fall asleep in about 10-15 minutes after that.
Being a bit older, it is rare that I sleep thru the entire night without having to make a bathroom stop, once, sometimes twice (and sometimes even 3 times) a night. After that, I ALWAYS lay on my left side to fall asleep. It is a fact that that is the best and healthiest position for sleep, helping your heart and your stomach.

We also have found that we have to eat dinner no later than 7, but try for 5:30-6:00 as there is simply no way we can go to sleep with a full stomach.

I use headphones to make the bedroom as quiet as possible, and again, just put the TV on, and I'm usually asleep in no time.

I have my alarm clock set for 7 AM but I am usually up before it rings. That said, we both usually don't get out of bed till about 9, as that's when I try and catch up on my TV watching which I can't seem to do at night.

So overall, I get about 6-7 hours of sleep a night, sometimes less but it really doesn't seem to affect me in any way.

OH, I am NOT a napper. I simply cannot take time to lay down during the day for a nap. I can't say why, but it just isn't me.

I should add: My bedroom is 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house and I cannot sleep without the drone of a fan. Pure silence awakens me so if the electricity goes out for any reason, I'm up because the fan stops running. I think there are a lot of people who need the sound of a fan to sleep

Do you have a Fitbit? Tells you how many hours sleep and the quality. You can even compare it to a benchmark. I have a versa 2. It monitors heart rate and has a relax session breathing mode. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/202ce87fcc42038908d80dfbfb85f757.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/36d65df80e916c579fd90000e54aa919.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/ca91ee3c06423c80830c2954b3e4c8b9.jpg)


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The REM and DEEP sleep vary and some days I have more REM and some much more DEEP. Depends on my body needs as I have figured out. I always have less awake time than the benchmark.


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Great stuff. Thank you all very much for the thoughtful responses. A couple of follow-up comments:

1. Jimmy, I thoroughly agree about expanding the stomach instead of the chest when inhaling. Actually, I never really knew this was how you were supposed to breathe in until a trainer told me a few years ago. He essentially said my breathing was all wrong, and once I trained myself to expand my belly instead of my chest I was performing better in the gym. Same with at night. "Belly breaths" are the term you here, and my experience tells me that this is indeed the right way to do it. Maybe everyone knows this already and I was just clueless (wouldn't be the first time), but it is a good point.

2. JBG, I had never heard of the military method. Sounds good. All of these are ways of just clearing your mind and getting yourself as deeply relaxed as possible. Different people have different approaches. I do like the deep, controlled breathing though - I find that really works for me.

3. Lenn, I am not much of a napper either. Many swear by it, but it has never been something I actively try to do. Once in a while (like maybe 2-3 times a year), I will doze off in the afternoon on the couch or in bed, but that tends to only happen if I had a very poor night's sleep the night before, a very late night, or I'm under the weather. Naps for me have never felt natural. I find that sleeping during the day disorients me a little bit, plus I'm always concerned that if I nap during the day I'll have a harder time getting to sleep that night.

4. Those of you who follow baseball will be familiar with the name Justin Verlander. He is a very successful Major League pitcher who is a surefire bet to be in the Hall of Fame. He is 39 years old now, and although he had an elbow injury that sidelined him last year, he has pitched at a very high level in recent years. In an interview, he said the biggest driver of his success and his longevity has been his devotion to sleep. He claims to sleep 10 hours a night and thinks that is a big reason why he does better than other pitchers his age. His story made an impression on me and made me realize that prioritizing more sleep than perhaps most people do is probably a worthwhile investment of one's time. Here is an article if you're interested:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/09/sports/baseball/justin-verlander-all-star-sleep.html

Quote from: Ed Vette on March 30, 2022, 12:19:16 PM
Do you have a Fitbit? Tells you how many hours sleep and the quality. You can even compare it to a benchmark. I have a versa 2. It monitors heart rate and has a relax session breathing mode. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/202ce87fcc42038908d80dfbfb85f757.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/36d65df80e916c579fd90000e54aa919.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220330/ca91ee3c06423c80830c2954b3e4c8b9.jpg)


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I don't, but I have been meaning to look into it. This looks like an excellent tool to have.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 30, 2022, 12:27:36 PM
I don't, but I have been meaning to look into it. This looks like an excellent tool to have.

You can sync it with your smartphone so it vibrates when you get a call or text and the information appears in the watch so you don

Very good topic for a thread, DB.

I haven't really thought about sleep to this degree. I've pretty much been a 'good' sleeper the majority of my life. I do well on little sleep (2-4 hours) but I generally get between 5-7 hours a night. I can doze off at a moment's notice for a 10-minute power nap and be refreshed as if I'd slept for 8.

About 10 years or so ago, I developed a mild case of RLS (restless leg syndrome). It would wake me several times a night, a few times a week. I would get up and try to 'shake' it off, lay down and a few minutes later, I'm up again. I'd end up getting out of bed to either go to the couch or sleep on the floor (I prefer a firm surface to sleep on) and eventually rock myself to sleep. Over the past few years, it kind of tapered off and doesn't happen as much.

I've also noticed that when I'm home if my mind isn't engaged (mostly on the computer or on my phone), watching a movie or I'm not actively doing something, I'll be out faster than I can think about that 4-7-8 method!

For most of my adult life, I was used to getting by on just 6 days of proper sleep (and until about a decade or so prior, often less than that).    Since I finally retired from the squad, it's been a real treat to have 7 days of sleep.  What a difference it makes.   Wednesday night was the night I would have to get by from anywhere for an hour or two to if I was lucky on rare occasions 6 hours.   I have to say I noticed that often when I got sick it was on Thursday or Friday.  I can tell you it was harder to stay calm on Thursdays and sometimes Fridays.   

This whole 7 nights a week of sleep is a real treat.  Suddenly it's about just getting a good night's sleep rather than forever chasing and trying to make up for lost sleep.

I use a CPAP & get about six hours sleep.

Quote from: MightyGiants on March 30, 2022, 01:26:13 PM
For most of my adult life, I was used to getting by on just 6 days of proper sleep (and until about a decade or so prior, often less than that).    Since I finally retired from the squad, it's been a real treat to have 7 days of sleep.  What a difference it makes.   Wednesday night was the night I would have to get by from anywhere for an hour or two to if I was lucky on rare occasions 6 hours.   I have to say I noticed that often when I got sick it was on Thursday or Friday.  I can tell you it was harder to stay calm on Thursdays and sometimes Fridays.   

This whole 7 nights a week of sleep is a real treat.  Suddenly it's about just getting a good night's sleep rather than forever chasing and trying to make up for lost sleep.

Getting by on an hour or two must have been really tough, especially in a physically active job.

For me, the worst is always back to back nights of significantly insufficient sleep (less than 4-5 hours). If I have one bad night but am otherwise well rested, I can get through that next day without it being too much of a problem (albeit it's not great). But two nights like that in a row and I'm a mess. Thankfully that almost never happens with me these days.

Has anyone ever taken melatonin? I know people who have. It's seen to be an alternative to chemical sleep medication as it is seen to be  non habit forming, there is no hangover, and its effects don't diminish. I have never tried but I suspect its effects are not as strong as certain heavier duty medications, but I know people who swear by it.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 31, 2022, 07:42:17 AM
Has anyone ever taken melatonin? I know people who have. It's seen to be an alternative to chemical sleep medication as it is seen to be  non habit forming, there is no hangover, and its effects don't diminish. I have never tried but I suspect its effects are not as strong as certain heavier duty medications, but I know people who swear by it.

I've tried Melatonin a few times, and literally every single time I've woken up with a fairly bad headache. For whatever reason we don't play well together. Instead when I have trouble sleeping I take this https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-sleep-aid%2C-192-tablets.product.100214358.html

Quote from: Sem on March 31, 2022, 08:11:30 AM
I've tried Melatonin a few times, and literally every single time I've woken up with a fairly bad headache. For whatever reason we don't play well together. Instead when I have trouble sleeping I take this https://www.costco.com/kirkland-signature-sleep-aid%2C-192-tablets.product.100214358.html

Interesting on the headaches, and sorry to hear that. Obviously that is no fun. I have never tried it and don't have any imminent plans to, but I just thought it was interesting since it is a non-chemical solution.

Knock on wood but these days I have been sleeping pretty well for the most part. Well enough at least that it isn't any sort of real problem. I have a feeling many people who struggle with it could improve their situation by addressing some of the non-medication considerations laid out in the OP and throughout this thread.

Of course, if those don't work, and a person is still suffering from insomnia, then certainly medication is an option.

I have gone through a few different periods in my life where I was not sleeping well enough, and it definitely impacted me at the time. I was getting sick more easily and just wasn't enjoying life as much. It is well worth taking whatever measures one can to avoid a poor sleep existence.

Sorry, the best sleep aid---SEX

All excellent points brought up. I did a deep dive last year over ways to forestall Alzheimers. After diet,sleep was one of the top things to restore the brain.   REM takes place about 6 hours in, so 7 hours sleep is important.
     I'm 52 and have been a shift worker my adult life.  Sleep is ever more a priority. When I transition to day shift, I take 5mg melatonin to help fall asleep. Magnesium helps you stay asleep longer too.  For shift workers, a dark room is a must.
      I see many retirees get off shift work and on a normal sleep schedule. They usually look younger after 6 months of this.
     Bottom line, healthy food, sleep, and exercise all must be a life priority.

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This is from my Fitbit. I rarely look at it and Ed's post reminded me that it has that sleep tracking/monitoring capability.

Tapping on one of the charts gives a more granular breakdown.

Pretty cool app.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220401/1817e324a30325a27a912f5a30271ae7.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220401/62ad262e019e2e591e74f97df06a4a73.jpg)

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You need more sleep.


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I got an 80 with 5 hours and 44 minutes.

I got an 81 with 7 hours and 57 minutes.

Quality > quantity

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Wow - great topic and outstanding diversity of input from everyone ... especially the sex which I completely agree with!

My 53-year-old body does well on seven hours of sleep and I think one factor, that I'm sure many here assumed but didn't quite spell it out, is that CONSISTENCY is really one of biggest factors in predicting quality of sleep. By that, I mean you go to bed at (or around) the same time every night and get up at (or around) the same time every morning. For some of us, that may not be possible due to work or other personal commitments. For others who can, however, it should be a goal to try to achieve (within +/- say 30 minutes of your target sleep time and wake time, respectively).

Personally, I try to hit the hay between 8:30 - 9:00 PM every day to wake up about 4:00 AM to start my day at the office by 5:30 - 6:00 AM (earlier if I have to be at a supplier and need to fight the hustle and bustle of PHX metro traffic). I've used many of the ideas already mentioned here to facilitate sleep such as Melatonin ... but also have a prescription if I am having a hard time falling asleep, keep the bedroom dark and as cold as possible (NOTE: as long as I promise to give my wife all my body heat so she doesn't complain she's cold). I generally take a warm shower to relax stiff muscles and my wife and I exchange massaging sore spots on each other. But, recently, since she had back surgery last winter, and is still very much hurting from L5-S1 being fused and caged, I decided to go all out on a Sleep Number bed with all the bells and whistles (e.g. FlexBase, DualTemp layer, etc.) and I have to say that has been the ultimate game changer in our sleeping experience. Critics will poo-poo it saying it's an overpriced air bed but, if you or your partner have back issues, and both of us do, and can't find the perfect sleeping position, the Sleep Number has completely addressed that for both of us. Both of us have considerable honkers and can snore the other
right out of the bed some nights (NOTE: don't ask who's winning that game). The bed has the partner "snore" button which elevates your partner's side, ever so slightly, but enough to where they actually do stop snoring. I'll just say the Sleep Number isn't for everyone but, if you're getting older, the bones are beginning to creak more now than ever before, and finding quality sleep is becoming an issue, it might be worth a try. Expensive? Yes, definitely but our thought is if it helps us, and the quality is there, I don't mind the price tag. So far, it has been everything for us we hoped it would be and that has made the greatest difference in the quality of our sleep.

If you have any questions about the Sleep Number, please feel welcome to PM me anytime and I'll be happy to share more.

Peace!

My wife and I have always slept in a Full bed. Don't ask me why we never graduated to a Queen or even larger, but we seem to like the closeness of the bed. My wife's father was in the mattress business eons ago, and she was always brought up with the thinking the firmer the bed the better it is for your back, which with many of today's mattresses that just isn't so. So she LOVES a firm to hard mattress while I enjoy some comfort in a softer bed. Having a Full mattress sort of eliminates a lot of the dual sides as most don't have that. We have tried several of the 'foam' ones which I loved, but she didn't.
We are actively looking at a Sleep Number bed and, as you said, the cost simply doesn't outweigh the good night's sleep option.