I am hoping like hell that the Giants will make me look foolish for doubting them.
1) I am really really really tired of talking about the offensive line. Seems like that has been a main topic of conversation for Giants fans (as in talking about the need to get better) for well over a decade.
2) It seems like the players are more into playing ping-pong than winning football games. This may seem petty, but it really irks me when I listen to player interviews (like the ones with Art Stapleton) and you can hear the players whooping it up playing ping pong. I just wish they put as much energy into winning football games as they do their ping-pong matches.
3) Has Daboll fallen off the player-friendly coach tightrope? Player-friendly coaches are always challenged with the need to balance their friendliness with the players and their need to hold the players accountable. Has 1925 Giants Way become a country club for well-paid (some might say overpaid) NFL players?
4) How many more games are the Giants going to lose because of injury before they fire Ronnie Barnes? You don't spend a decade at the top of the injury list and not address the VP of those services. How does Thomas go from we are holding him out of the 49ers game to be safe, to is week to week because he suffered a serious setback at a position that doesn't stress the hamstring?
5) Are the 11 picks in the 2022 draft (2 in the top 10 and 5 in the top 100) ever going to contribute to a Giants win?
6) I so wanted to believe the Giants were headed in the right direction after the playoff victory last season. Now I am beginning to have my doubts and wonder if it was just wishful thinking of a desperate fan wanting to end a decade of futility.
NY Giants, I know you are handicapped by missing 2 of your top offensive players, but now is the time to prove me wrong for not having faith. If you don't it's an easy path to 5 and 1.
Don't want to hear any excuses even with the injuries the Giants still have enough talent to win this game IMO. Plus with 11 days off they've had enough time to practice and game plan for the back ups who will be playing in place of the injured to be ready for bigger roles.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 08:59:07 AMDon't want to hear any excuses even with the injuries the Giants still have enough talent to win this game IMO. Plus with 11 days off they've had enough time to practice and game plan for the back ups who will be playing in place of the injured to be ready for bigger roles.
I dont know how you can say we are still talented enough to win? Where do we have an advantage? Their offense is much better than ours. Their secondary is getting two starters back.
Yeah, their pass rush isnt good - but is ours? And right now, id take their coaching staff over ours too.
We have two advantages tonight - more rest (which means little since we cant get guys on the field) and we are home. But talent wise - we are still pretty far behind them.
My concerns for this game are:
1) Coaching: can Dab/Ka call a good offensive game plan to open running lanes, protect Jones, and open up the downfield passing attack? Having 11 days to prepare for a team that has to travel across the country is a big plus. If they lose this game, I don't think I can look at this coaching staff in the same light as last season.
2) Defense: will they punch some Chawks in the mouth? Can they slow down Metcalf and Lockett?
3) Execution: can the players play like they are professional athletes? Do they have the heart to dig down and make plays when they need to?
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 09:42:18 AMI dont know how you can say we are still talented enough to win? Where do we have an advantage? Their offense is much better than ours. Their secondary is getting two starters back.
Yeah, their pass rush isnt good - but is ours? And right now, id take their coaching staff over ours too.
We have two advantages tonight - more rest (which means little since we cant get guys on the field) and we are home. But talent wise - we are still pretty far behind them.
We could have/should have beaten them in their own building last year had we not had those two flukey special teams turnovers. I don't think there is a huge gap between the two teams. Both were playoff teams last year that were pretenders, and we net added talent in the offseason.
I'm not saying we're clearly better or that we'll clearly win, but there isn't anywhere near the gap between us and them that there was with say the 49ers. And we had that as a one score game in the fourth quarter in their building on four days rest as the visitor.
Quote from: T200 on October 02, 2023, 09:45:07 AMMy concerns for this game are:
1) Coaching: can Dab/Ka call a good offensive game plan to open running lanes, protect Jones, and open up the downfield passing attack? Having 11 days to prepare for a team that has to travel across the country is a big plus. If they lose this game, I don't think I can look at this coaching staff in the same light as last season.
2) Defense: will they punch some Chawks in the mouth? Can they slow down Metcalf and Lockett?
3) Execution: can the players play like they are professional athletes? Do they have the heart to dig down and make plays when they need to?
If we cant get pressure and sack Smith a few times tonight without their starting tackles - you are looking at an extremely long season. Its time for a Thibs game.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 02, 2023, 09:45:29 AMWe could have/should have beaten them in their own building last year had we not had those two flukey special teams turnovers. I don't think there is a huge gap between the two teams. Both were playoff teams last year that were pretenders, and we net added talent in the offseason.
I'm not saying we're clearly better or that we'll clearly win, but there isn't anywhere near the gap between us and them that there was with say the 49ers. And we had that as a one score game in the fourth quarter in their building on four days rest as the visitor.
I agree that Seattles isnt in Dallas or SF league, if we can pressure Smith we have a chance and there should be no excuses with them missing Cross/Lucas, and possibly Brown. If we cant get pressure tonight, it may be a very very long year for the defense.
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 09:46:21 AMIf we cant get pressure and sack Smith a few times tonight without their starting tackles - you are looking at an extremely long season. Its time for a Thibs game.
I don't see how not getting pressure in one game affects the rest of the season. Injuries? Sure. But performance from week to week varies, as we all know.
It's about individual matchups and being able to win them. So far, to your point, Thibs has been on the losing end.
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 09:47:40 AMI agree that Seattles isnt in Dallas or SF league, if we can pressure Smith we have a chance and there should be no excuses with them missing Cross/Lucas, and possibly Brown. If we cant get pressure tonight, it may be a very very long year for the defense.
I think that's a fair statement. Our D has been a disaster, no doubt about that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 08:55:35 AMI am hoping like hell that the Giants will make me look foolish for doubting them.
1) I am really really really tired of talking about the offensive line. Seems like that has been a main topic of conversation for Giants fans (as in talking about the need to get better) for well over a decade.
2) It seems like the players are more into playing ping-pong than winning football games. This may seem petty, but it really irks me when I listen to player interviews (like the ones with Art Stapleton) and you can hear the players whooping it up playing ping pong. I just wish they put as much energy into winning football games as they do their ping-pong matches.
3) Has Daboll fallen off the player-friendly coach tightrope? Player-friendly coaches are always challenged with the need to balance their friendliness with the players and their need to hold the players accountable. Has 1925 Giants Way become a country club for well-paid (some might say overpaid) NFL players?
4) How many more games are the Giants going to lose because of injury before they fire Ronnie Barnes? You don't spend a decade at the top of the injury list and not address the VP of those services. How does Thomas go from we are holding him out of the 49ers game to be safe, to is week to week because he suffered a serious setback at a position that doesn't stress the hamstring?
5) Are the 11 picks in the 2022 draft (2 in the top 10 and 5 in the top 100) ever going to contribute to a Giants win?
6) I so wanted to believe the Giants were headed in the right direction after the playoff victory last season. Now I am beginning to have my doubts and wonder if it was just wishful thinking of a desperate fan wanting to end a decade of futility.
NY Giants, I know you are handicapped by missing 2 of your top offensive players, but now is the time to prove me wrong for not having faith. If you don't it's an easy path to 5 and 1.
1. The oline has been an issue starting with their last SB win. You started to see the cracks then, disgusting.
2. I mentioned barnes for years, on the old Giants forum. I don't get it.
3. The picks as I've said b4, need time and with KT & what wink is asking of him can also affect him, but he can do better and same with EN who hasn't yet played a full season.
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 09:42:18 AMI dont know how you can say we are still talented enough to win? Where do we have an advantage? Their offense is much better than ours. Their secondary is getting two starters back.
Yeah, their pass rush isnt good - but is ours? And right now, id take their coaching staff over ours too.
We have two advantages tonight - more rest (which means little since we cant get guys on the field) and we are home. But talent wise - we are still pretty far behind them.
Giants passing game should be able to move the ball downfield against the weakness of the Seattle defense. I think the Giants defenses time to break out with a good pass rush comes tonight.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 11:35:26 AMGiants passing game should be able to move the ball downfield against the weakness of the Seattle defense. I think the Giants defenses time to break out with a good pass rush comes tonight.
Hoping you are right.
Good read MightyGiants.
The first 3 games took the wind out of my sails. I hate rationalizing football. The expectations were this team was going to close the gap on PHI and DAL and improve on last year's performance level. I respect Daboll and Wink especially, but the country club points are well taken. Bisignano referred to this on a podcast during camp - how the Giants were taken aback by DET's intensity level and approach to the practices, how meetings start later in the day/end earlier than lots of programs he's seen. It's nice that Schoen & Daboll like to be buds with everyone but Management 101 is don't act like your casual friends with the people you're managing.
I'm in show me mode. I'm no longer talking about this team being good in any fashion. For me, it was all about "closing the gap" and it doesn't appear any progress has been made. OTOH, if the Giants have a bad record but end up playing DAL and PHI tight at the end of the year, I still may take that as a win.
These fringe wildcard teams are the teams the Giants simply have to beat if they want any success these season.
I'm expecting Jones to air it out and have a lot of success against a mediocre pass rush.
Watch for Wan'dale and Hyatt to have success in gadget play situations.
The D needs to wake up and have a statement game.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 11:35:26 AMGiants passing game should be able to move the ball downfield against the weakness of the Seattle defense. I think the Giants defenses time to break out with a good pass rush comes tonight.
The Seahawks secondary is good. Their pass rush is subpar however the Giants OL is swiss cheese so they may get sacks and consistent pressure.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 02, 2023, 12:07:18 PMThe Seahawks secondary is good. Their pass rush is subpar however the Giants OL is swiss cheese so they may get sacks and consistent pressure.
They just allowed 364 passing yards with 2 TDs and no picks to the Andy Dalton-led Panthers, who have almost no weapons of any note. The Seahawks are dead last in the league in passing yards allowed per game.
If we can't move the ball through the air on these guys at home off 11 days rest with relative ease, then our front office may need to begin to have a serious re-think on the macro vision moving forward.
I don't think we'll have a problem though. This D stinks. I think you'll see a performance by our offense that is closer to the second half of the Arizona game than anything else we've seen this season.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 02, 2023, 12:41:44 PMThey just allowed 364 passing yards with 2 TDs and no picks to the Andy Dalton-led Panthers, who have almost no weapons of any note. The Seahawks are dead last in the league in passing yards allowed per game.
If we can't move the ball through the air on these guys at home off 11 days rest with relative ease, then our front office may need to begin to have a serious re-think on the macro vision moving forward.
I don't think we'll have a problem though. This D stinks. I think you'll see a performance by our offense that is closer to the second half of the Arizona game than anything else we've seen this season.
Do you think the return of a Pro Bowl CB, Riq Woolen, and the addition of a Pro Bowl safety might boost the Seahawks' defense? If you do, comparing what the D did against the Panthers might not be a good idea.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 12:55:44 PMDo you think the return of a Pro Bowl CB, Riq Woolen, and the addition of a Pro Bowl safety might boost the Seahawks' defense? If you do, comparing what the D did against the Panthers might not be a good idea.
Ok but I'd like to think Daniel Jones is significantly better than Andy Dalton, and we also have more weapons than the Panthers do, even without Barkley. Further, it's not like this Seattle D was some juggernaut last year with those guys you mentioned playing. And further still, they have other injuries this week like their other starting corner.
It's the NFL. All teams, even bad ones, have some good players. All I'm saying is that this opponent is substantially softer on the defensive side of the ball than those of the teams our offense has struggled against. This team's D is much closer to the caliber of the Arizona D than it is to the 9ers or Cowboys. This is not a game in which our offense should struggle, especially with all the rest and prep time.
i expect to see an aggressive game plan tonight. whether it works or not is the question. but we cant keep playing from behind and playing it so safe. we have to be an nfl caliber team at some point.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 02, 2023, 01:06:32 PMOk but I'd like to think Daniel Jones is significantly better than Andy Dalton, and we also have more weapons than the Panthers do, even without Barkley. Further, it's not like this Seattle D was some juggernaut last year with those guys you mentioned playing. And further still, they have other injuries this week like their other starting corner.
It's the NFL. All teams, even bad ones, have some good players. All I'm saying is that this opponent is substantially softer on the defensive side of the ball than those of the teams our offense has struggled against. This team's D is much closer to the caliber of the Arizona D than it is to the 9ers or Cowboys. This is not a game in which our offense should struggle, especially with all the rest and prep time.
Sadly, the talent on the Giants offense has not played any better than the talent on the Panther's offense.
(https://i.imgur.com/qzDh9MO.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/V8l8xnT.png)
Id like to see our true talent see the field. If we are in a 13 set..
Hyatt
Hodgins
Robinson
Waller
Send Slayton and Campbell to the bench. I dont think they are particularly good.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 02, 2023, 12:07:18 PMThe Seahawks secondary is good. Their pass rush is subpar however the Giants OL is swiss cheese so they may get sacks and consistent pressure.
The Giants offensive line has enough to hold up against their front. Even with Seattle's secondary the Giants should be able to move the ball downfield through the air.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 12:55:44 PMDo you think the return of a Pro Bowl CB, Riq Woolen, and the addition of a Pro Bowl safety might boost the Seahawks' defense? If you do, comparing what the D did against the Panthers might not be a good idea.
The Panthers started an over the hill QB with no weapons against that Seattle defense. Even with the return of those guys I would think Jones and this group still should be able to move the ball through the air tonight.
I am extremely surprised that those who typically defend Jones's play are not as confident in the Giants passing game tonight as I am. To tell you the truth win or lose I would be shocked if Jones doesn't play well tonight.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 01:38:59 PMThe Panthers started an over the hill QB with no weapons against that Seattle defense. Even with the return of those guys I would think Jones and this group still should be able to move the ball through the air tonight.
I am extremely surprised that those who typically defend Jones's play are not as confident in the Giants passing game tonight as I am. To tell you the truth win or lose I would be shocked if Jones doesn't play well tonight.
I posted the PFF lineups of the Panthers and the Giants. The Panthers, have more weapons than the Giants and a better O-line
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 01:40:07 PMI posted the PFF lineups of the Panthers and the Giants. The Panthers, have more weapons than the Giants and a better O-line
According to PFF which is not fact but rather a graded score based upon opinions.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 01:35:19 PMThe Giants offensive line has enough to hold up against their front. Even with Seattle's secondary the Giants should be able to move the ball downfield through the air.
The Giants OL barely had enough with Thomas. This OL is bad. Our best OL has started 3 games in his career.
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 01:46:26 PMThe Giants OL barely had enough with Thomas. This OL is bad. Our best OL has started 3 games in his career.
And again the Seattle pass rush is not a good one. I get being concerned about the Giants defense tonight but the Giants passing game is not nearly a concerned with this match up for me.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 01:44:21 PMAccording to PFF which is not fact but rather a graded score based upon opinions.
It's been suggested that Giants fans are biased. Wouldn't it make sense to seek out outside sources? I have heard a few people claim that the Panthers are less talented, but from what PFF shows, that doesn't appear to be the case.
If you want to go the factual route, the Panters are better than the Giants in:
Points per game
Yards per game
Passing yards per game
Running yards per game
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 01:48:15 PMAnd again the Seattle pass rush is not a good one. I get being concerned about the Giants defense tonight but the Giants passing game is not nearly a concerned with this match up for me.
Until I see the O-line block like an NFL-caliber offensive line for more than just one half a game against a non-playoff team, the O-line will always be a concern until proven otherwise.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 01:49:18 PMIt's been suggested that Giants fans are biased. Wouldn't it make sense to seek out outside sources? I have heard a few people claim that the Panthers are less talented, but from what PFF shows, that doesn't appear to be the case.
If you want to go the factual route, the Panters are better than the Giants in:
Points per game
Yards per game
Passing yards per game
Running yards per game
Have the Panthers played the Cowboys and 49ers, two of the top 3 or 4 defenses in the league? Does that context matter for the above?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 01:49:18 PMIt's been suggested that Giants fans are biased. Wouldn't it make sense to seek out outside sources? I have heard a few people claim that the Panthers are less talented, but from what PFF shows, that doesn't appear to be the case.
If you want to go the factual route, the Panters are better than the Giants in:
Points per game
Yards per game
Passing yards per game
Running yards per game
Everyone has their own biases including PFF. As for the factual route the results are not the argument here it's an opinion based upon the talent on both rosters. It's not who has been better but who has more ability. IMO the Giants have more ability especially with a 5th year QB in the prime of his career.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 01:50:44 PMUntil I see the O-line block like an NFL-caliber offensive line for more than just one half a game against a non-playoff team, the O-line will always be a concern until proven otherwise.
The offensive line played well in the first half against Arizona. The rest of the team didn't.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 02:06:52 PMEveryone has their own biases including PFF. As for the factual route the results are not the argument here it's an opinion based upon the talent on both rosters. It's not who has been better but who has more ability. IMO the Giants have more ability especially with a 5th year QB in the prime of his career.
Greg,
I think the issue is that on paper, the Giants have weapons. Through 3 weeks with the exception of Hyatt (who for some reason isn't allowed to play much), those weapons haven't shown up on the field.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 02:20:21 PMGreg,
I think the issue is that on paper, the Giants have weapons. Through 3 weeks with the exception of Hyatt (who for some reason isn't allowed to play much), those weapons haven't shown up on the field.
We're in agreement. The Giants have the ability to have a big passing game tonight. Whether they will is a different story because as you said to this point they haven't shown up. But my point was that they do have the ability which I believe you agree with.
Jones better carry the team and win tonight. No excuses
Quote from: Trench on October 02, 2023, 02:49:59 PMJones better carry the team and win tonight. No excuses
So if Jones has over 300 yards and 4 TDs and the Giants lose - its his fault?
I just dont get this line of thinking. One person never wins a football game. If the OL doesnt block and the WRs dont catch the ball - is it still his fault?
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 03:15:12 PMSo if Jones has over 300 yards and 4 TDs and the Giants lose - its his fault?
Nope, in my opinion if Jones did that with no turnovers on his end the Giants almost certainly won the game. If they didn't there had to be a number of things that had nothing to do with him that went wrong.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 02, 2023, 03:17:22 PMNope, in my opinion if Jones did that with no turnovers on his end the Giants almost certainly won the game. If they didn't there had to be a number of things that had nothing to do with him that went wrong.
Well thats reasonable. The Giants winning or losing is not contingent on how Jones does. If he plays really well - they will have a good shot. If he stinks - they most likely lose. But there are other factors that will determine whether we win or lose.
Hey, what if we get a couple turnovers or a big special teams play, and one of our backs break a long TD run and Jones is just pedestrian? He doesnt then deserve all the credit either. How about we wait and see who gets credit or discredit for the win or loss instead of putting all on one guy?
Quote from: JT39 on October 02, 2023, 03:19:38 PMWell thats reasonable. The Giants winning or losing is not contingent on how Jones does. If he plays really well - they will have a good shot. If he stinks - they most likely lose. But there are other factors that will determine whether we win or lose.
Hey, what if we get a couple turnovers or a big special teams play, and one of our backs break a long TD run and Jones is just pedestrian? He doesnt then deserve all the credit either. How about we wait and see who gets credit or discredit for the win or loss instead of putting all on one guy?
Think we are thinking along the same lines with some variation of disagreement. All good.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 02, 2023, 01:50:44 PMUntil I see the O-line block like an NFL-caliber offensive line for more than just one half a game against a non-playoff team, the O-line will always be a concern until proven otherwise.
The O-line was a concern last year, so they got the ball out of Jones' hand quickly. Tonight sets up well for that, which should take the pressure off the O-line. My biggest concern in the pass rush is actually not the D-line of Seattle against the O-line of the Giants. We are about to find out if any of our RBs can pick up a blitz......or not. Jones saved them a few times against Arizona with his legs. They need to do better. If a dope like me can pick up on that during the game you can bet Carroll saw it and has some plans to exploit that.