Can we talk about Joe Schoen too? He blew TWO top 7 picks, and Deonte Banks grades are scary low. He also blew it when he declined Jones fifth year option which forced us to sign him to that huge deal, instead of making him prove it one more year under Daboll. He also is the one who hired these other crappy coaches. He does not keep getting a pass.
Schoen has a lot to answer for. Most of his best players he inherited and some of his decisions were questionable at best.
He doesn't deserve a pass but he also doesn't deserve to be let go after 2 seasons when the previous guy who was arguably the worst GM in the history of the franchise got 4 seasons. He should be given more time to clean up the mess.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 05:56:54 PMHe doesn't deserve a pass but he also doesn't deserve to be let go after 2 seasons when the previous guy who was arguably the worst GM in the history of the franchise got 4 seasons. He should be given more time to clean up the mess.
Greg,
I don't think anyone is yet calling on Schoen to be fired. He does need to be held accountable for the lousy team.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 06:03:41 PMGreg,
I don't think anyone is yet calling on Schoen to be fired. He does need to be held accountable for the lousy team.
Holding someone accountable typically means loss of job. Don't know how else it would be applied.
Let's not forget, he drafted four of our starting offensive lineman
I have been a huge fan of Schoen, and while (up until this season) I didn't think everything he did was always perfect, I have generally liked the moves he has made and the way he has conducted negotiations, etc.
However, by no means am I going to look the other way on him should things persist the way they are this year. He is in charge, and right now this team looks no better than a Joe Judge/Dave Gettleman team. And this is year two for Schoen. So as a results guy, I'm definitely going to be flexible on my views, but I'm not ready to hit the panic button on him and declare him a bad hire. I'm actually not particularly close to that point yet.
So what do you propose? How do you not give him a
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 03, 2023, 06:23:14 PMI have been a huge fan of Schoen, and while (up until this season) I didn't think everything he did was always perfect, I have generally liked the moves he has made and the way he has conducted negotiations, etc.
However, by no means am I going to look the other way on him should things persist the way they are this year. He is in charge, and right now this team looks no better than a Joe Judge/Dave Gettleman team. And this is year two for Schoen. So as a results guy, I'm definitely going to be flexible on my views, but I'm not ready to hit the panic button on him and declare him a bad hire. I'm actually not particularly close to that point yet.
I am fearful we are living Judge/Gettleman part two
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 05:56:54 PMHe doesn't deserve a pass but he also doesn't deserve to be let go after 2 seasons when the previous guy who was arguably the worst GM in the history of the franchise got 4 seasons. He should be given more time to clean up the mess.
I'd have hoped he'd be cleaning up the mess from DG and not his own. Worrying more about that.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 03, 2023, 06:23:14 PMI have been a huge fan of Schoen, and while (up until this season) I didn't think everything he did was always perfect, I have generally liked the moves he has made and the way he has conducted negotiations, etc.
However, by no means am I going to look the other way on him should things persist the way they are this year. He is in charge, and right now this team looks no better than a Joe Judge/Dave Gettleman team. And this is year two for Schoen. So as a results guy, I'm definitely going to be flexible on my views, but I'm not ready to hit the panic button on him and declare him a bad hire. I'm actually not particularly close to that point yet.
Think last season though winning 9 games was great in the long run the domino effect of leading to the retention of players may end up hurting the franchise in the long run. They may have been better off with a 5-6 win 2022 leading to a reset for 2023.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 03, 2023, 06:45:13 PMI'd have hoped he'd be cleaning up the mess from DG and not his own. Worrying more about that.
Thing though is the mess long term might be relating to the big contracts he handed out to the holdovers from the last regime.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 06:30:15 PMSo what do you propose? How do you not give him a
I am fearful we are living Judge/Gettleman part two
I am not sure what your second question was as it appears cut off, but if I were the front office I'd proceed with the season and try/hope to get better, but if we fall to 1-5, as expected, I would start thinking about being a seller ahead of the deadline and trying to build draft capital for what appears right now to be a talent-loaded draft.
If you're asking what I propose re Joe Schoen, I don't really propose anything right now other than that he do his job to the best of his ability.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 03, 2023, 06:14:28 PMLet's not forget, he drafted four of our starting offensive lineman
How much of that is on Bobby Johnson. Not a single Giants lineman has shown improvement since the middle of last year. In fact they've all regressed to one degree or another including Thomas. I have a hard time hanging that on the GM alone.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 03, 2023, 06:53:12 PMThink last season though winning 9 games was great in the long run the domino effect of leading to the retention of players may end up hurting the franchise in the long run. They may have been better off with a 5-6 win 2022 leading to a reset for 2023.
Perhaps, but there is definitely a fair bit of hindsight in that statement. For a team that was so starved of anything positive, last year felt like a really solid first step at the time. I'm not sure I can go as far as to say it was actually more harmful than good, but I do get your point and understand the logic.
What should boggle everyone's mind is that it's 2023 and the Giants are still dealing with the same positional weaknesses from several years ago. That happens when instead of rebuilding correctly you're worrying about Barkley's contract, you're bringing in a 31 Waller and you hand a bunch of money to a QB who has proven nothing. You cannot build on top of a crap foundation.
I seem to remember someone here speculating Mara was behind the new Jones contract. Could that possibly be true? If Schoen wanted to go a different direction and had this forced on him then everything else is irrelevant.
For as much as I want Jones out there are obvious other problems. It's not like Jones is costing us close game. My belief is it all starts at the most important position which affects everything else. So I'm not firing Schoen just yet, but bright spots are hard to find right now. Except for the top five pick coming our way.
Fans still hate Gettleman yet Schoen is getting a huge pass. What player that he has acquired his first two years has made an actual impact on the team? All of his OL additions have been busts, weapons haven't flourished, so why do people not give him blame yet?
I hope it's not true that the Maras are dictating things like signing Jones. If so then the situation is beyond hope.
Assuming not, then Schoen is definitely not above criticism. Not a single player he's brought in has been worth the cost. Both drafts have, to this point, been terrible. If it were another team I'd say he was a joke of a GM.
If the bottom falls out and this team is in position to be looking at a Caleb Williams, no way should Schoen (or Mara for that matter) be the one making the call.
Quote from: madbadger on October 03, 2023, 06:55:26 PMHow much of that is on Bobby Johnson. Not a single Giants lineman has shown improvement since the middle of last year. In fact they've all regressed to one degree or another including Thomas. I have a hard time hanging that on the GM alone.
He should be canned after giving up 11 sacks.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on October 03, 2023, 10:53:49 PMFans still hate Gettleman yet Schoen is getting a huge pass. What player that he has acquired his first two years has made an actual impact on the team? All of his OL additions have been busts, weapons haven't flourished, so why do people not give him blame yet?
Was Gettleman that heavily attacked by the fans 1.25 years into his tenure? I honestly don't remember but I doubt it.
Also, were you unhappy with Schoen just after last season, when we won our first playoff game in a decade a year after he and his hand-picked, coach of the year-winning coach took over? I'll speak for myself but I thought that was a pretty darn good first year given what was handed to him.
So while I in no way am "giving anyone a pass", I think it's a little early to throw the guy completely under the bus. Obviously if this season ends up being the disaster that it is already starting to look like it's going to be, then the view on Schoen will be different than it was last February.
But I'm not ready to just jump ship right now and say this guy is a bad GM or has done a terrible job overall. No GM is perfect, where every single decision they make works out well. That wasn't true with George Young or Ernie Accorsi, or anyone else in the league.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 06:38:25 AMWas Gettleman that heavily attacked by the fans 1.25 years into his tenure? I honestly don't remember but I doubt it.
Also, were you unhappy with Schoen just after last season, when we won our first playoff game in a decade a year after he and his hand-picked, coach of the year-winning coach took over? I'll speak for myself but I thought that was a pretty darn good first year given what was handed to him.
So while I in no way am "giving anyone a pass", I think it's a little early to throw the guy completely under the bus. Obviously if this season ends up being the disaster that it is already starting to look like it's going to be, then the view on Schoen will be different than it was last February.
But I'm not ready to just jump ship right now and say this guy is a bad GM or has done a terrible job overall. No GM is perfect, where every single decision they make works out well. That wasn't true with George Young or Ernie Accorsi, or anyone else in the league.
Agreed. This was always going to take a couple years to climb out of the gettleman hole. 2024 always should have been the target. What happened last year, while fun in the moment, hurt them in the long run. If they had this season last year there's no Jones no Barkley and a fresh rebuild happening which is what they desperately need.
Schoens biggest mistake so far for me is not seeing last year as the mirage it was and thinking they could compete for anything this year.
When I 1st joined this place I was posting that I don't understand how fans could trust this new group after one magical season.
I was called a troll and a joke by a few regulars and now the team is setting records for being terrible.
I hope they can grow from this and learn from their mistakes becaue they will have a 3rd year minimum.
Right now, Neal is looking Eric Flowers level bad in terms of a very high O-line draft bust
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 06:38:25 AMWas Gettleman that heavily attacked by the fans 1.25 years into his tenure? I honestly don't remember but I doubt it.
Also, were you unhappy with Schoen just after last season, when we won our first playoff game in a decade a year after he and his hand-picked, coach of the year-winning coach took over? I'll speak for myself but I thought that was a pretty darn good first year given what was handed to him.
So while I in no way am "giving anyone a pass", I think it's a little early to throw the guy completely under the bus. Obviously if this season ends up being the disaster that it is already starting to look like it's going to be, then the view on Schoen will be different than it was last February.
But I'm not ready to just jump ship right now and say this guy is a bad GM or has done a terrible job overall. No GM is perfect, where every single decision they make works out well. That wasn't true with George Young or Ernie Accorsi, or anyone else in the league.
Gettleman had way more heat than Schoen from near the beginning, when he drafted Barkley.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:34 AMAgreed. This was always going to take a couple years to climb out of the gettleman hole. 2024 always should have been the target. What happened last year, while fun in the moment, hurt them in the long run. If they had this season last year there's no Jones no Barkley and a fresh rebuild happening which is what they desperately need.
Schoens biggest mistake so far for me is not seeing last year as the mirage it was and thinking they could compete for anything this year.
I agree, although at least Schoen exhibited some degree of discipline with both Jones and Barkley. Both are still on the team, but he didn't cave to Barkley's demands, and the Jones contract, while clearly a substantial investment, is structured very differently from the way the Herbert/Lamar/Burrow contracts are, and I don't just mean the size of the AAV.
I agree that the 2022 season probably did the franchise no favors in terms of the medium term, but I do think Schoen was careful to not over-commit to the staples of it and left himself some outs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 07:52:00 AMRight now, Neal is looking Eric Flowers level bad in terms of a very high O-line draft bust
That's for sure. I'm a lot more worried about him than I am Thibodeaux (and I'm not overjoyed with Thibodeaux at this point).
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 07:44:49 AMWhen I 1st joined this place I was posting that I don't understand how fans could trust this new group after one magical season.
I was called a troll and a joke by a few regulars and now the team is setting records for being terrible.
I hope they can grow from this and learn from their mistakes becaue they will have a 3rd year minimum.
I don't think it was so much trust of the new regime that they were going to get it right as it was a breath of fresh air being the Giants for the first time in 40 years hired an outsider with a different approach to team building. There was (and still is) no guarantee they'll get it right but at least they were going about things in a different way rather than the old failed outdated approach.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 03, 2023, 06:30:15 PMSo what do you propose? How do you not give him a
I am fearful we are living Judge/Gettleman part two
No way are we there. Joe Judge was a complete fraud, a joke. As for Gettleman, the less said, the better.
Schoen doesn't hire the coaching staff. Daboll does that.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on October 04, 2023, 08:31:54 AMSchoen doesn't hire the coaching staff. Daboll does that.
Considering that Daboll worked with Schoen at Buffalo, do you think it's a coincidence that Daboll ended up as the head coach?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 07:52:00 AMRight now, Neal is looking Eric Flowers level bad in terms of a very high O-line draft bust
Flowers was the better player at this point in their careers.
I know that's not saying much but Flowers would have stretches of games where he didn't give up a sack. I have to admit I don't recall how many hurries he gave up though with Neal just looks so out matched at times.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 07:58:14 AMI agree, although at least Schoen exhibited some degree of discipline with both Jones and Barkley. Both are still on the team, but he didn't cave to Barkley's demands, and the Jones contract, while clearly a substantial investment, is structured very differently from the way the Herbert/Lamar/Burrow contracts are, and I don't just mean the size of the AAV.
I agree that the 2022 season probably did the franchise no favors in terms of the medium term, but I do think Schoen was careful to not over-commit to the staples of it and left himself some outs.
That's a good point too. Gettleman would have tied a Jones/Barkley anchor around this team for the next 5 years. At least Schoen appeared to hedge his bet with Jones being able to get out after next season and Barkley being gone after this one.
If they have a chance to take a QB they should do that. Let him sit a year while Jones takes a beating next season and then start the rookie after that when hopefully Jones is off the books so that money can be allocated to the 71 holes that need to be plugged.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 04, 2023, 08:59:56 AMThat's a good point too. Gettleman would have tied a Jones/Barkley anchor around this team for the next 5 years. At least Schoen appeared to hedge his bet with Jones being able to get out after next season and Barkley being gone after this one.
If they have a chance to take a QB they should do that. Let him sit a year while Jones takes a beating next season and then start the rookie after that when hopefully Jones is off the books so that money can be allocated to the 71 holes that need to be plugged.
If John Mara had his way Kevin Abrams would have succeeded Gettleman and they would have at least picked up Jones's 5th year option if not signed him to an extension before the 2022 season.
I have a feeling that should the rest of this season go south and they end up with a draft slot that has them in a position to draft a QB next spring that they will do what you are describing.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 08:40:46 AMConsidering that Daboll worked with Schoen at Buffalo, do you think it's a coincidence that Daboll ended up as the head coach?
No it is not a coincidence. But head coaches hire their own staff.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 08:08:46 AMI don't think it was so much trust of the new regime that they were going to get it right as it was a breath of fresh air being the Giants for the first time in 40 years hired an outsider with a different approach to team building. There was (and still is) no guarantee they'll get it right but at least they were going about things in a different way rather than the old failed outdated approach.
You can sugar coat it but I voiced my concerns they didn't do enough with the oline this off season which could derail this season. It reminded me of the season that Getty didn't do anything either claiming they trust the players to improve. That seems a lot like the old fasion way to me.
I wonder if those fans are now trusting them. LOL
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 08:40:46 AMConsidering that Daboll worked with Schoen at Buffalo, do you think it's a coincidence that Daboll ended up as the head coach?
Definitely not. Schoen was instrumental in Daboll becoming the coach here. Reports at the time suggested Mara wanted Flores. I don't know if that's actually true, but to suggest the Daboll hire was purely coincidental seems far-fetched at best to me.
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 09:06:39 AMYou can sugar coat it but I voiced my concerns they didn't do enough with the oline this off season which could derail this season. It reminded me of the season that Getty didn't do anything either claiming they trust the players to improve. That seems a lot like the old fasion way to me.
I wonder if those fans are now trusting them. LOL
Does the team really need
Schoen has invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line in just two seasons as GM. You can critique them for not getting the ROI on those investments but you can't see they didn't do enough or haven't tried hard enough to address the offensive line.
Quote from: shadowspinner0 on October 03, 2023, 10:53:49 PMFans still hate Gettleman yet Schoen is getting a huge pass. What player that he has acquired his first two years has made an actual impact on the team? All of his OL additions have been busts, weapons haven't flourished, so why do people not give him blame yet?
Gettleman was a washed-up retread who only got the job (IMO) because of his relationship with Mara. Then, he comes waltzing in here like his :poo: don't stink. His arrogance put off a lot of people. His moves from Day 1 were not the best and he talked out both sides of his mouth.
He earned and deserved all the vitriol he got.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 09:08:51 AMSchoen has invested a ton of draft capital into the offensive line in just two seasons as GM. You can critique them for not getting the ROI on those investments but you can't see they didn't do enough or haven't tried hard enough to address the offensive line.
I disagree and the bad results are now on display.
They only added a rookie Center this off season for a group that was in the bottom of the league the previous season.
Not signing a back up tackle instead of a couple of average WRs was a mistake as of now.
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 09:36:23 AMI disagree and the bad results are now on display.
They only added a rookie Center this off season for a group that was in the bottom of the league the previous season.
Not signing a back up tackle instead of a couple of average WRs was a mistake as of now.
The results are obviously not good enough right now but there are two parallel discussions (or critiques here). One is the idea that Schoen "hasn't done enough" to improve the O line. The other is that what Schoen has done for the line has not yet yielded satisfactory results. I think the latter is totally fair, but the former is not. In two offseason he has made big investments in the line. He spent the only money he had in the 2022 offseason on a free agent starting guard, and he used three picks including the 7th overall on the unit. And then he used a 2 on the line in this draft. He also gave a huge contract to the incumbent left tackle. How many of the 31 other franchises have invested ih their O lines more than that since the end of the 2021 season?
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 09:36:23 AMI disagree and the bad results are now on display.
They only added a rookie Center this off season for a group that was in the bottom of the league the previous season.
Not signing a back up tackle instead of a couple of average WRs was a mistake as of now.
This is also the price you pay when you invest more cap space into the QB position. It leaves you less cap space to address other area's on the roster. Unless you wanted to let Jones walk and bring in someone to play QB with less of a cap hit it would have been impossible to make the additional investments you are talking about. And like with the other big draft capital investments in the offensive line there is no guarantee you would have gotten better results.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on October 04, 2023, 09:06:02 AMNo it is not a coincidence. But head coaches hire their own staff.
To that end, one thing that bothers me is it's becoming clear Bobby Johnson is not a good O-line coach (frankly, his work in Buffalo didn't exactly suggest he was good there). Both Daboll and Schoen had front-row seats, so to speak, to see how Bobby Johnson performed his job. How on earth did they not see that Bobby Johnson was not the guy the Giants needed as their O-line coach? The O-line coach is the most important position coach on the team, in my opinion. I appreciate Schoen would let Daboll select his staff, but they have a close working relationship. You have to think Daboll would listen if Schoen had an opinion on a coach he knew and/or worked with.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 04, 2023, 09:44:29 AMThis is also the price you pay when you invest more cap space into the QB position. It leaves you less cap space to address other area's on the roster. Unless you wanted to let Jones walk and bring in someone to play QB with less of a cap hit it would have been impossible to make the additional investments you are talking about. And like with the other big draft capital investments in the offensive line there is no guarantee you would have gotten better results.
What? Do you have a Jones agenda?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 03, 2023, 05:51:07 PMCan we talk about Joe Schoen too? He blew TWO top 7 picks, and Deonte Banks grades are scary low. He also blew it when he declined Jones fifth year option which forced us to sign him to that huge deal, instead of making him prove it one more year under Daboll. He also is the one who hired these other crappy coaches. He does not keep getting a pass.
He didn't have to sign him to that big deal. He should have let him test free agency if he was asking for more than he was worth. People have this notion that what he got was the going rate for QBs. You pay the player, not the position. He was never worth the contract. They should have either franchised him or given him a 2-year 55 million dollar contract with incentives. Now they're stuck with him till next year with a major chunk of the cap. You could have signed Barkley long-term and it would have cost less than Jones' contract. He's just not the guy. He shows glimpses of good play and then turns around and makes bone head decisions. The entire Giants organization needs to be questioned at this moment.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 09:42:35 AMThe results are obviously not good enough right now but there are two parallel discussions (or critiques here). One is the idea that Schoen "hasn't done enough" to improve the O line. The other is that what Schoen has done for the line has not yet yielded satisfactory results. I think the latter is totally fair, but the former is not. In two offseason he has made big investments in the line. He spent the only money he had in the 2022 offseason on a free agent starting guard, and he used three picks including the 7th overall on the unit. And then he used a 2 on the line in this draft. He also gave a huge contract to the incumbent left tackle. How many of the 31 other franchises have invested ih their O lines more than that since the end of the 2021 season?
I will again disagree. They need to address it until they actually fix it!
Glow was a mistake they need to be able to recognize and moved forward from him being a starter.
The left overs like Peart and the frenchman have never been good yet that's who they went into the season with.
The Thomas contract has nothing to do with this conversation unless signing him has caused them a cap problem.
Just step back without looking at the investments and look at what the results were.
They were a real bad group and the only thing they did to improve it was to draft a center. They needed to address having back ups or god forbid bringing in some competition.
We've been watching this since 2011 as Giants fans and they have put high stock in draft picks during this span with only one good player to show for it.
When is it going to be time to make sure the group is functionable so they can be a decent offense? Is everyone fine with hoping the coaches can make these players servicable? It seems like other teams have been successful like the Hawks were on Monday so the issues could be with the coaching staff and blocking schemes.
Quote from: fromthebside on October 04, 2023, 10:01:03 AMHe didn't have to sign him to that big deal. He should have let him test free agency if he was asking for more than he was worth. People have this notion that what he got was the going rate for QBs. You pay the player, not the position. He was never worth the contract. They should have either franchised him or given him a 2-year 55 million dollar contract with incentives. Now they're stuck with him till next year with a major chunk of the cap. You could have signed Barkley long-term and it would have cost less than Jones' contract. He's just not the guy. He shows glimpses of good play and then turns around and makes bone head decisions. The entire Giants organization needs to be questioned at this moment.
Barkley isn't worth a long-term deal either.
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 10:12:26 AMBarkley isn't worth a long-term deal either.
He's worth it more than Jones. Barkley is a proven commodity. When he's on, he is a weapon. Get him in space and he'll get you yardage. He makes the play action work. Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield. But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again.
Quote from: fromthebside on October 04, 2023, 10:24:23 AMHe's worth it more than Jones. Barkley is a proven commodity. When he's on, he is a weapon. Get him in space and he'll get you yardage. He makes the play action work. Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield. But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again.
Barkley is hurt, and the odds are good that he will continue to get hurt. Frankly, the Barkley model is outdated, in my opinion. Teams are better served with a duo of good RBs than just one really good RB. The duo allows injuries (which RBs are more prone to) to be better handled, and the reduced workload can extend the RB's careers and reduce the chances of injury.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 10:27:35 AMBarkley is hurt, and the odds are good that he will continue to get hurt. Frankly, the Barkley model is outdated, in my opinion. Teams are better served with a duo of good RBs than just one really good RB. The duo allows injuries (which RBs are more prone to) to be better handled, and the reduced workload can extend the RB's careers and reduce the chances of injury.
His model is not outdated. The Adrian Peterson model is outdated. RBs that can't block or catch are a hindrance in the passing game. Adrian was a beast and still has some value, but in the wide-open offenses, you have to keep the defenses honest. Barkley does that. yes, you need to have a stable of RBs but they have to have some value. The healthy backs that the Giants have right now are barely serviceable. They are not threats and the defenses don't need 8 men in the box. Barkley, to your point, when healthy, is a difference maker. You pay difference makers.
Quote from: fromthebside on October 04, 2023, 10:24:23 AMHe's worth it more than Jones. Barkley is a proven commodity. When he's on, he is a weapon. Get him in space and he'll get you yardage. He makes the play action work. Right now, there is no threat of a run game or any threat coming out of the backfield. But on the flip side, he has a high ankle sprain and isn't playing again.
Come on now it's fine to make a mistake and sign Barkley long-term because another mistake of a long-term contract was signed by another player
Quote from: fromthebside on October 04, 2023, 10:33:51 AMHis model is not outdated. The Adrian Peterson model is outdated. RBs that can't block or catch are a hindrance in the passing game. Adrian was a beast and still has some value, but in the wide-open offenses, you have to keep the defenses honest. Barkley does that. yes, you need to have a stable of RBs but they have to have some value. The healthy backs that the Giants have right now are barely serviceable. They are not threats and the defenses don't need 8 men in the box. Barkley, to your point, when healthy, is a difference maker. You pay difference makers.
part of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him. His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league. I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal. When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason).
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 10:41:26 AMpart of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him. His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league. I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal. When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason).
Totally agree. Smart teams like the Eagles understand this (and have for years). Teams that put all their eggs into one RB do not win Super Bowls.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 10:41:26 AMpart of the problem with a Barkley is you have to pay him. His 10+ million salary makes him the 7th highest-paid RB in the league. I would rather have 2 lower-paid RBs or better yet at least one on a cheap rookie deal. When you have a RB like Barkley GMs are loath to bring in another quality RB because they know Barkley is going to get most of the carries (if healthy) and they tend to neglect them in the draft (for the same reason).
What's stopping them from bringing in another quality back? Barkley, to your point, is hurt. but he is a quality back. Brightwell, Breida, Gray doesn't make the opposing defenses have to focus on them. They're backups forced in to starting roles and their lack of value is now showing. None of them should be getting more than 10 looks a game. You need to have the best of the best on the field. And these backup RBs aren't it. Barkley has his limitations as far as health, but his skillset is valued. Run, pass, and block. You need quality, not just quantity.
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 09:55:10 AMWhat? Do you have a Jones agenda?
It's not a Jones agenda. It's math when it comes to the salary cap. It's why it's much more difficult to put together a solid deep roster when you have a QB on their 2nd contract. It's why KC had to deal Hill because with Mahomes's contract they couldn't afford to keep him.
Once Jones got off his rookie contract and the decision to pay him was made they not only committed themselves to Jones but also gave themselves less cap room to put together the rest of the roster.
Quote from: RelaxTension on October 04, 2023, 10:11:27 AMIs everyone fine with hoping the coaches can make these players servicable? It seems like other teams have been successful like the Hawks were on Monday so the issues could be with the coaching staff and blocking schemes.
This is a great point and where the issue is. It's not that the Giants haven't made investments in the offensive line it's that they haven't gotten the ROI out of the investments they've made. Meaning they either have invested in the wrong players or they are not being coached well as a unit. The Giants offensive line coach has to be on thin ice at this point and will be a casualty if things don't improve.
all this talk reminds me of a dog chasing its tail
The season is not over. 12 games to go
A turnaround would be nice, maybe improbable but possible
I have not thrown in the towel as yet. lets see how it all plays out before building a gallows
Quote from: BluesCruz on October 04, 2023, 11:20:56 AMall this talk reminds me of a dog chasing its tail
The season is not over. 12 games to go
A turnaround would be nice, maybe improbable but possible
I have not thrown in the towel as yet. lets see how it all plays out before building a gallows
They have the Dolphins and Bills up next on their schedule. Last week was as close to a must win as you can have and they not only lost, they were non-competitive. The only way they can hang with either of these next two teams is if those teams completely take the week off as far as preparations go believing they could show up without any practice and still whip the Giants. And to be honest, those teams are so good they might be able to actually do it.
The talk has shifted away from what the OP stated, should Schoen be held accountable?
If anyone had posted this last year, most would be looking for the tar and feathers. I would say, to a man, everyone here was pleased with the Giants last year and most were looking forward to a better year this year. , I always said the Giants would take a step back this year, but not a complete leap back to obscurity. Anyway, now that we are back to being one of the worst teams in the league, Schoen is being dragged over the hot coals. Look, I am not defending him here, but he has tried. Not everyone can see the future and know that Neal would be a bust, and Thibs would be a one-trick pony. Again, I could say with confidence that after Schoen's first draft, we were all elated by the way he got TWO potentially great players out of those first 2 picks. We were also thrilled with drafting the kid for center this first draft. So how can we now rake Schoen over the coals?
My biggest complaint with him was his giving into Jones and his agent. We all had a number for Jones, around 30-32 mil, and most thought that was fair, yet Jones demanded more, and Schoen, for whatever reason, gave in. I would have gone with Taylor, used that money to fix other problems and see what the future would bring. Jones was never the answer. Now he is the problem.
Simply said, there is NO WAY Schoen or Daboll be sent packing next year. Just no way. Once we rid ourselves of William's disastrous contract, which should have been done this past year, and eat the dead money, maybe we can start to work on some of the major problems.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 04, 2023, 07:20:34 AMAgreed. This was always going to take a couple years to climb out of the gettleman hole. 2024 always should have been the target. What happened last year, while fun in the moment, hurt them in the long run. If they had this season last year there's no Jones no Barkley and a fresh rebuild happening which is what they desperately need.
Schoens biggest mistake so far for me is not seeing last year as the mirage it was and thinking they could compete for anything this year.
His biggest mistake was not giving Jones his 5 year. They would be playing on his 5th year option right now and I strongly doubt he would be resigned
I've been a fan since 1965. Their regular season record since then is 420-474, rounded up that is a .470 winning percentage for the last 58 years. Despite too few all too brief periods of success we root for a historical losing franchise even though the Giants are considered to be a NFL flagship franchise. I'll pause for a moment while you all grab a towel to wipe the cold water from your faces. Despite the fact that Schoen is not responsible for the Dick Jameses, Tommy Longos, Derrick Browns, and Ian Allens of the world Atlas would have a hard time holding up that world of truth. Yes while some of us are growing long in tooth(or don't have them any longer) we need to give some time for the Joe/Brian show to play out. They were first given a plate of cow diarrhea to hand in for the Pitmaster BBQ Contest. The look of disgust on Daboll's face Monday night tells me all he needs to know about Jones. After last season there was some hope, but Schoen correctly structured the contract with an out. If/when Daboll hoists the Lombardi as Giant coach Jones will not be the QB. Frankly the first thing to fix is the poor tackling. Football in it's essence is a violent, COLLISION sport, not a contact sport. When the Seattle TE played ole' along the sideline the first Giant to tackle(sic) him should have hit him in a full sprint anywhere from the knee to the hip sending him careening like a bowling pin into the bench area. Like LT said "play like some crazed dogs". Unfortunately there may not be enough junkyard dogs to go around. That's a topic for another thread.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 04, 2023, 12:39:03 PMHis biggest mistake was not giving Jones his 5 year. They would be playing on his 5th year option right now and I strongly doubt he would be resigned
I think it's fair to say that with the benefit of hindsight, they should have exercised his fifth year option, but with the information they had at the time I don't regard this as having been a poor decision. Jones had not only not played well up to that point, but just as importantly he had never played a full season without missing multiple games due to a significant injury. QBs need to be more reliable than that, given the price range of the position. So I think that was a big concern at the time that weighed into their decision, and I think it was a fair concern.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 04, 2023, 01:01:59 PMI think it's fair to say that with the benefit of hindsight, they should have exercised his fifth year option, but with the information they had at the time I don't regard this as having been a poor decision. Jones had not only not played well up to that point, but just as importantly he had never played a full season without missing multiple games due to a significant injury. QBs need to be more reliable than that, given the price range of the position. So I think that was a big concern at the time that weighed into their decision, and I think it was a fair concern.
Hindsight is 20/20, and I think Jeff's point is a strong one. One can only make a decision based on the information at hand.
Quote from: fromthebside on October 04, 2023, 10:24:23 AMGet him in space and he'll get you yardage. He makes the play action work.
While these are true statements about Barkley, they are also true statements about plenty of RBs who cost a fraction of Barkley's cost and are more durable.
I am not saying Barkley is not a very good if not great player. He absolutely is. But the economics of paying up for an older injury-prone RB (rather than maintaining a stable of quality but cheaper backs like the Eagles do) just don't work, unfortunately.
I am not a Daniel Jones fan; I thought his being drafted 6th was one of the worst picks in Giants history. That said, he had a good year last year and the team won a playoff game after years of less than mediocrity. What do you think the reaction of fans would have been if he did not re-sign him ( and the owner). There were no really good QBs in the draft and no good free agent QBs not even considering the CAP situation here. He could have franchised Jones but that probably would have resulted in losing Barkley. And and signing Jones freed up money to spend this year. Coming off a successful year made dealing with Jones much harder. Signing Jones may have been the best of a few bad options.
My opinion is that the real screwup after Jones with the 6th pick was passing on Herbert the following year when he available at our pick. A GM as bad as Gettleman would not have done that because among other things, it would have been admitting the Jones pick was a mistake and Getty sucked as a GM. I wonder if Schoen was here then or a GM with foresight and cojones would have pulled the trigger on Herbert and traded Jones for whatever we could get.
Quote from: AYM on October 04, 2023, 07:55:19 AMGettleman had way more heat than Schoen from near the beginning, when he drafted Barkley.
Gettleman was reviled from the beginning because he was just another recycled Mara guy. He was also hated because of the stupid out of touch comments he made about the modern NFL and the use of analytics. Schoen is a much better GM. I get that they've been a dumpster fire but outside of the Jones deal he's cleaned up the cap nightmare he inherited and been smart with his free agent signings. Unless he starts thrashing to and fro both Daboll and Schoen deserve at least three full seasons to be judged. Especially considering the cap hell he inherited.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 07:52:00 AMRight now, Neal is looking Eric Flowers level bad in terms of a very high O-line draft bust
And after what Neal said today, he's taken the Flowers express train.
Quote from: madbadger on October 04, 2023, 02:26:16 PMGettleman was reviled from the beginning because he was just another recycled Mara guy. He was also hated because of the stupid out of touch comments he made about the modern NFL and the use of analytics. Schoen is a much better GM. I get that they've been a dumpster fire but outside of the Jones deal he's cleaned up the cap nightmare he inherited and been smart with his free agent signings. Unless he starts thrashing to and fro both Daboll and Schoen deserve at least three full seasons to be judged. Especially considering the cap hell he inherited.
Nailed it. I give Schoen way more rope. He extended Dlaw and Thomas. Gettleman signed Golladay and extended nobody but a guy he traded too much for in Leo with albatross contracts that cost us resigning Love and Tomlinson.
I fully agree with you guys, although Schoen needs to do more than simply not be Gettleman in order to earn lasting accolades over the medium to longer term. Gettleman may have been one of the 20 or 30 worst GMs in the history of the NFL. For Schoen to receive lasting accolades over the medium to longer run, the results will need to be there in the end. We'll see if that happens. I remain optimistic in him overall, but I admit he has made a few regrettable decisions, as any good GM does.