Big Blue Huddle

https://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1711334377286734020

Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias.

I stated just recently, his passes are rushed based on the pressure he gets (internal clock speeds up) and the only thing he can do is get rid of it asap. If not he will get injured & unfortunately he did. And even TT who was in for a short while was getting nailed.

We will be last years 49ers revolving QBs. Kudos to the FO & the people who think that the oline is just fine- lmao.. JB looks worse than DJ with a bad oline as well, but JB gets a pass & DJ gets the blame. Any great qb will look bad if their oline stinks. This oline will probably be historically bad. And they still haven't started the same 5 from week 1 till this point.

Here's the problem- it actually doesn't matter if Daniel Jones could have been a good QB behind a competent OL at this point (I am one who 100% believes he could have been).  Unfortunately - it's irrelevant.  He's been pressured and hit so consistently now that his timing/clock in the pocket will never be the same.  I hate to say it but what I see is a broken QB and it's hardly the guy's fault.  But again, I don't think it matters.  It is what it is and barring some sort of heavenly intervention that fixes our OL and makes them not just average but VERY GOOD in pass pro, any success DJ may have will simply prolong the inevitable replacement.   

Unfortunately, Kurt, it's not just the last two weeks. It's going on 5 years of mediocre or worse QB play. At some point it is what it is and you move on.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 09, 2023, 10:58:43 AMHere's the problem- it actually doesn't matter if Daniel Jones could have been a good QB behind a competent OL at this point (I am one who 100% believes he could have been).  Unfortunately - it's irrelevant.  He's been pressured and hit so consistently now that his timing/clock in the pocket will never be the same.  I hate to say it but what I see is a broken QB and it's hardly the guy's fault.  But again, I don't think it matters.  It is what it is and barring some sort of heavenly intervention that fixes our OL and makes them not just average but VERY GOOD in pass pro, any success DJ may have will simply prolong the inevitable replacement.   

PSU: I've been waiting two weeks for someone to post this.  It's likely true. 

That's why the NFL eventually "gives up" on promising young QB's who were drafted very highly.

I'll say this for Jones... he's one tough s.o.b. so he's certain to keep trying... right up until the ambulance arrives to cart him off the field for the last time.

Bob

Quote from: Bob In PA on October 09, 2023, 11:12:18 AMPSU: I've been waiting two weeks for someone to post this.  It's likely true. 

That's why the NFL eventually "gives up" on promising young QB's who were drafted very highly.

I'll say this for Jones... he's one tough s.o.b. so he's certain to keep trying... right up until the ambulance arrives to cart him off the field for the last time.

Bob

Sometimes, we have seen such QBs do well later in their careers.  Look at Geno Smith or Rich Gannon as two examples (Randy Mueller had more examples in his latest podcast but I can't remember them).

Quote from: Bob In PA on October 09, 2023, 11:12:18 AMPSU: I've been waiting two weeks for someone to post this.  It's likely true. 

That's why the NFL eventually "gives up" on promising young QB's who were drafted very highly.

I'll say this for Jones... he's one tough s.o.b. so he's certain to keep trying... right up until the ambulance arrives to cart him off the field for the last time.

Bob

The mental part of the game for an NFL QB is so incredibly complex and layered....even the smartest and toughest SOBs at the position will be affected when consistently seeing NFL-caliber speed and size coming at them every time they drop back- both in their face and, in yesterday's case, completely free running full speed from your blind side.  I'd say a lot of the criticism for DJ locking onto a primary read is fair, but also likely a result of him desperately trying to find quick completions out there because his timer in the pocket is finished/kaput/in the crapper.

Sad, really.  But....it's just where we are. 

Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 09, 2023, 10:58:43 AMHere's the problem- it actually doesn't matter if Daniel Jones could have been a good QB behind a competent OL at this point (I am one who 100% believes he could have been).  Unfortunately - it's irrelevant.  He's been pressured and hit so consistently now that his timing/clock in the pocket will never be the same.  I hate to say it but what I see is a broken QB and it's hardly the guy's fault.  But again, I don't think it matters.  It is what it is and barring some sort of heavenly intervention that fixes our OL and makes them not just average but VERY GOOD in pass pro, any success DJ may have will simply prolong the inevitable replacement.   

That is also my concern to a degree (Ala David Carr). But he was getting killed since joining the team and last year he did his best with what he had he. He may still be able to salvage it if they fix the line by next year. Otherwise there is only so much someone can take.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 11:19:07 AMSometimes, we have seen such QBs do well later in their careers.  Look at Geno Smith or Rich Gannon as two examples (Randy Mueller had more examples in his latest podcast but I can't remember them).

True but unfortunately just by your numbers alone there have been several since the draft started & of course you find same rare (a bit better there) gems in the later rounds.

If they don't fix the oline I rather see DJ be a good/great qb on another team that gives him a legit chance, then killed behind our oline. Felt the same way when people were thinking Eli may go to another team. Now if we were to play them Giants come first and always will, otherwise wish former giant players who played hard & had class the best, except when they play us.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 11:19:07 AMSometimes, we have seen such QBs do well later in their careers.  Look at Geno Smith or Rich Gannon as two examples (Randy Mueller had more examples in his latest podcast but I can't remember them).

Difference is Geno Smith had only 31 NFL Starts in his pre Seattle career and Gannon only had 35 NFL Starts in his first 6 seasons in Minnesota.  Compare that to Daniel Jones who in 4+ seasons has had almost 60 NFL starts.  Smith and Gannon were a case of not being given the opportunity to prove themselves.  Jones has had enough starts to prove himself and it just hasn't worked out.

Quote from: PSUBeirut on October 09, 2023, 11:20:56 AMThe mental part of the game for an NFL QB is so incredibly complex and layered....even the smartest and toughest SOBs at the position will be affected when consistently seeing NFL-caliber speed and size coming at them every time they drop back- both in their face and, in yesterday's case, completely free running full speed from your blind side.  I'd say a lot of the criticism for DJ locking onto a primary read is fair, but also likely a result of him desperately trying to find quick completions out there because his timer in the pocket is finished/kaput/in the crapper.

Sad, really.  But....it's just where we are. 

PSU: As you well know, playing QB in the NFL is a progression... a "ladder" you climb. If the bottom rungs of the ladder are broken, you have to get a new ladder and start over. Without the foundation of having climbed the low rungs, you never get a reasonable chance to take the next steps. Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 11:19:07 AMSometimes, we have seen such QBs do well later in their careers.  Look at Geno Smith or Rich Gannon as two examples (Randy Mueller had more examples in his latest podcast but I can't remember them).

Neither guy was physically brutalized for years like Jones has been. The only analog I can come up with is David Carr. I've said this in the past and I'll say it again and again. If you're going to draft a quarterback in the top ten you had better be prepared to waste significant cap space and draft picks to ensure he has a competent offensive line to play behind. Apparently Dave Gettleman had different ideas.

Quote from: madbadger on October 09, 2023, 11:42:42 AMNeither guy was physically brutalized for years like Jones has been. The only analog I can come up with is David Carr. I've said this in the past and I'll say it again and again. If you're going to draft a quarterback in the top ten you had better be prepared to waste significant cap space and draft picks to ensure he has a competent offensive line to play behind. Apparently Dave Gettleman had different ideas.

In Gettleman's defense he did draft a starting Left Tackle with the 4th overall pick the year after Jones was drafted.  That guy turned out to become an All Pro Tackle.  Schoen has spent a number of draft capital on linemen.  The Giants have spent more draft capital on linemen than any team in the league yet have gotten the worst ROI of any team in the league.  It's why I don't believe spending another Top 10 draft selection on a linemen in 2024 is the solution.  The Giants need to figure out what they're doing wrong and why their high value investments have given them so little.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 09, 2023, 11:19:07 AMSometimes, we have seen such QBs do well later in their careers.  Look at Geno Smith or Rich Gannon as two examples (Randy Mueller had more examples in his latest podcast but I can't remember them).

How about Jim Plunkett?
Beaten to a pulp with the Patriots and Niners..but became a great Raider two-time champ.

Mara said "we've done everything we can to screw this kid up". Some posters have suggested that Mara was an influence behind Jones' contract. Maybe he was as a way to compensate Jones. It was also structured with a two year out to benefit the team. We as fans want more immediate results, and like our "brethren" in Philly would boo Santa Claus. As an NFL owner Mara lives in a completely different Giant world than we do. Some on here(yours truly) have been Giant fans since 66'(the worst, I also have vague memories of 64'). The difference is no matter the record the Mara family cash register always goes ca-ching, ca-ching. We otoh have tv's taking flight out windows(watch out!), shock and dismay, masochists that pay good money for this crap(apologies, no intent to insult), and getting up to puke. Frankly there should be a practice where for producing consistently inferior products owners offer ticket discounts and free parking. Good luck with that.

Brown was in a much better situation and simply could not produce.

First of all, Brown started on bench for 2 seasons behind Hos and then Simms.

Brown had some very good Mike Nolan defenses and also benefited from an much better running game. 

Brown was a deer in headlights and the problem with the offense. 

Back then even the defensive players had turned on Brown and knew he was the problem.


1992 Bench                        Defense #26    Running Game #1       
1993 Bench                        Defense #1      Running game # 10
1994 Starter                       Defense # 8    Running Game #10
1995 Starter                       Defense #16   Running Game #13
1996 Starter                       Defense #10   Running game # 24
1997 Benched for Kennel     Defense # 4   Running game # 7

Quote from: spiderblue43 on October 09, 2023, 11:57:05 AMHow about Jim Plunkett?
Beaten to a pulp with the Patriots and Niners..but became a great Raider two-time champ.

Didnt Plunkett play behind an Oakland left side OL that are both in the HOF

Quote from: spiderblue43 on October 09, 2023, 11:57:05 AMHow about Jim Plunkett?
Beaten to a pulp with the Patriots and Niners..but became a great Raider two-time champ.

Plunket is an example that makes sense.  He had around the same number of starts in New England as Jones has had with the Giants.  Took a trip to San Francisco before he broke out with the Raiders.  Different era of football but a good example.  Geno Smith and Rich Gannon are not good examples.

Quote from: files58 on October 09, 2023, 12:01:31 PMMara said "we've done everything we can to screw this kid up". Some posters have suggested that Mara was an influence behind Jones' contract. Maybe he was as a way to compensate Jones. It was also structured with a two year out to benefit the team. We as fans want more immediate results, and like our "brethren" in Philly would boo Santa Claus. As an NFL owner Mara lives in a completely different Giant world than we do. Some on here(yours truly) have been Giant fans since 66'(the worst, I also have vague memories of 64'). The difference is no matter the record the Mara family cash register always goes ca-ching, ca-ching. We otoh have tv's taking flight out windows(watch out!), shock and dismay, masochists that pay good money for this crap(apologies, no intent to insult), and getting up to puke. Frankly there should be a practice where for producing consistently inferior products owners offer ticket discounts and free parking. Good luck with that.

In fairness, Mara and Tisch certainly opened up their wallets this off-season with big contracts for Jones, Dexter, and Andrew Thomas

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 11:47:05 AMIn Gettleman's defense he did draft a starting Left Tackle with the 4th overall pick the year after Jones was drafted.  That guy turned out to become an All Pro Tackle.  Schoen has spent a number of draft capital on linemen.  The Giants have spent more draft capital on linemen than any team in the league yet have gotten the worst ROI of any team in the league.  It's why I don't believe spending another Top 10 draft selection on a linemen in 2024 is the solution.  The Giants need to figure out what they're doing wrong and why their high value investments have given them so little.

You missed the part where I said that it should be done the year of or year after you draft the quarterback. Our line sucked back then. Drafting one lineman doesn't qualify as throwing assets at the line.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 09, 2023, 11:21:45 AMThat is also my concern to a degree (Ala David Carr). But he was getting killed since joining the team and last year he did his best with what he had he. He may still be able to salvage it if they fix the line by next year. Otherwise there is only so much someone can take.

The things is the Jones haters would be the first ones to throw a block party when we draft a new QB next season.  The problem is with the line being trash the way it is, we are on the same road of screwing the development of that kid.

Fans here don't realize how tough DJ is with his size and build.  Now you put a smaller QB in there in this trash of an oline and that kid will be on the IR by week 5.

On a side note, why TF is Bobby Johnson still a coach for this team.  You figure given how bad this oline is on epic proportions he would have been given the pink slip already.  Back up DEs and DTs are teeing off our QB looking like the next coming of LT against our oline.  I swear if anything, these bums are dogging it out there.

The simple assignment of picking up a twist looks like advance calculus for our guys.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 09, 2023, 03:14:52 PMThe things is the Jones haters would be the first ones to throw a block party when we draft a new QB next season.  The problem is with the line being trash the way it is, we are on the same road of screwing the development of that kid.

Fans here don't realize how tough DJ is with his size and build.  Now you put a smaller QB in there in this trash of an oline and that kid will be on the IR by week 5.

On a side note, why TF is Bobby Johnson still a coach for this team.  You figure given how bad this oline is on epic proportions he would have been given the pink slip already.

The simple assignment of picking up a twist looks like advance calculus for our guys.

Labeling people on here critical of Daniel Jones as being "haters" is not only inaccurate it's also insulting to suggest that we hate and are rooting against him.  And BTW no one who has been critical of Jones has criticized his toughness or professionalism.  But keep running with that false narrative if it makes you feel better.

He is Sam Darnold at this point and nothing but a fresh start is going to likely fix it.

People can hope all that want but as @kingm56 has stated for the past several years no Qb that has played as many snaps as Jones has ever becomes something more than what they've shown you. Last year was Jones ceiling and that simply isn't good enough in the modern NFL.

Our problem as a team is that the organization held onto him when they should have just started over.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 09, 2023, 03:14:52 PMThe things is the Jones haters would be the first ones to throw a block party when we draft a new QB next season.  The problem is with the line being trash the way it is, we are on the same road of screwing the development of that kid.

Fans here don't realize how tough DJ is with his size and build.  Now you put a smaller QB in there in this trash of an oline and that kid will be on the IR by week 5.

On a side note, why TF is Bobby Johnson still a coach for this team.  You figure given how bad this oline is on epic proportions he would have been given the pink slip already.  Back up DEs and DTs are teeing off our QB looking like the next coming of LT against our oline.  I swear if anything, these bums are dogging it out there.

The simple assignment of picking up a twist looks like advance calculus for our guys.

The Jones or bust crowd will continue to make excuses. That's ok. Time will tell.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 09, 2023, 03:14:52 PMThe things is the Jones haters would be the first ones to throw a block party when we draft a new QB next season.  The problem is with the line being trash the way it is, we are on the same road of screwing the development of that kid.

Fans here don't realize how tough DJ is with his size and build.  Now you put a smaller QB in there in this trash of an oline and that kid will be on the IR by week 5.

On a side note, why TF is Bobby Johnson still a coach for this team.  You figure given how bad this oline is on epic proportions he would have been given the pink slip already.  Back up DEs and DTs are teeing off our QB looking like the next coming of LT against our oline.  I swear if anything, these bums are dogging it out there.

The simple assignment of picking up a twist looks like advance calculus for our guys.

Exactly. No matter who the QB is, if that line isn't fixed from dead last to 15-20 range, it won't matter. Then the same old song and dance will come out. We need ANOTHER new qb. Unless of course the QB that was taken they have a man crush on, then they will give them till the end of time.

Grass is not always greener & I agree the Oline & ST coaches needed to be fired last year. No excuses. Those two areas are the worst and for some reason so if the wr group. Catch and drop, catch & fall right down, barely getting separation. Then again, that can be partially the line not holding up to give them time.

They have similar wr speed as the Fins and there is nothing there. Maybe it is the play calling as well.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 09, 2023, 06:27:42 PMExactly. No matter who the QB is, if that line isn't fixed from dead last to 15-20 range, it won't matter. Then the same old song and dance will come out. We need ANOTHER new qb. Unless of course the QB that was taken they have a man crush on, then they will give them till the end of time.

Grass is not always greener & I agree the Oline & ST coaches needed to be fired last year. No excuses. Those two areas are the worst and for some reason so if the wr group. Catch and drop, catch & fall right down, barely getting separation. Then again, that can be partially the line not holding up to give them time.

They have similar wr speed as the Fins and there is nothing there. Maybe it is the play calling as well.

Offensive line needs to be in the 1-5 range for Daniel Jones anything less is unacceptable. 

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 06:57:15 PMOffensive line needs to be in the 1-5 range for Daniel Jones anything less is unacceptable. 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-2023-offseason

PFF had us projected with at 29 and this is with the addition of JMS along with last year's performance.  We were garbage last year as far as the oline goes but we were 18th in total yards, 26 in passing and 4th in rushing, 18th in scoring on the first year of a new offense.  It wasn't good but at least we were competing and not getting the doors blown off by the second quarter.  Nowhere near the $hit show we've seen since the beginning of the season - and yes Thomas was playing in the first game.  So DJ does not need a top 5 o-line to be competent.  He just needs one to let him at least hit the top of his drop to at least make a read and throw the ball. 


How is it that with better skill position players the offense as a whole has fallen off the face of the earth.  I swear if these bums are not just dogging it out there or something else is the issue.  Because to be this historically bad as an offense is unheard of.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 09, 2023, 10:53:58 AMhttps://twitter.com/kurt13warner/status/1711334377286734020

Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias.

I stated just recently, his passes are rushed based on the pressure he gets (internal clock speeds up) and the only thing he can do is get rid of it asap. If not he will get injured & unfortunately he did. And even TT who was in for a short while was getting nailed.

We will be last years 49ers revolving QBs. Kudos to the FO & the people who think that the oline is just fine- lmao.. JB looks worse than DJ with a bad oline as well, but JB gets a pass & DJ gets the blame. Any great qb will look bad if their oline stinks. This oline will probably be historically bad. And they still haven't started the same 5 from week 1 till this point.

First, we're all biased.

Second, just because a pro or two agrees with your line of thinking doesn't make you right.

Third, no one on this site has said the offensive line is not a problem. I challenge you or anyone to find a single post that genuinely claims that Jones is the sole problem with this offense.

Last, the intellectual DIShonesty on this site is absurd. The words are WRITTEN for everyone to see, yet some of you read and misinterpret how you see fit so long as it lines up with your own personal narrative.

Not sure how much more I can take of this place.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 06:57:15 PMOffensive line needs to be in the 1-5 range for Daniel Jones anything less is unacceptable. 

It was obvious from the start, because you make it so easy. Keep at it!  :ok:

Quote from: T200 on October 09, 2023, 11:41:36 PMFirst, we're all biased.

Second, just because a pro or two agrees with your line of thinking doesn't make you right.

Third, no one on this site has said the offensive line is not a problem. I challenge you or anyone to find a single post that genuinely claims that Jones is the sole problem with this offense.

Last, the intellectual DIShonesty on this site is absurd. The words are WRITTEN for everyone to see, yet some of you read and misinterpret how you see fit so long as it lines up with your own personal narrative.

Not sure how much more I can take of this place.

1- Bias can be case be case basis. Fair point.

2- Putting posts up and people can decide how to digest the information & if it holds any weight (or is it only one side allowed, not the other or even a middle ground?).

I have knocked players I fully supported like Eli with his TO's (some due to wrs) but that was early on generally and his horrible sliding. Tiki when he was fumbling. Majority was self-inflicted, others were not. But it was all in context and need some patience. Again context.

3- Oh I have seen insinuations of it just being DJ, or any time to knock him, but when he has played great, not even a squeak. Again he can be blamed for things no doubt, but gotta see the big picture. I mentioned before how have the top players looked when their oline plays horrible. And all qbs have bad throws, seen quite a few this weekend even from great qbs. Now if it is an easy layups & becomes a trend, then it is a concern. How about that dime he dropped into waller near the end zone that he dropped?

4- I joined this site a long time ago, but just recently started being active. It reminds me of the old Giants forums, maybe not to that extreme. You have 2 sides who occasionally meet in the middle. As well as some who are neutral. And all sides have their moments when they get frustrated with our favorite team & need to let off some steam whether it is warranted or not.

Then you have trolls that want to have their fun (no matter the side).

5- Not sure if they have the feature for the forum, if not maybe they can add it. A block user feature. Helps you ignore the person/people you want.

Quote from: GMenRF on October 09, 2023, 11:30:13 PMhttps://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-2023-offseason

PFF had us projected with at 29 and this is with the addition of JMS along with last year's performance.  We were garbage last year as far as the oline goes but we were 18th in total yards, 26 in passing and 4th in rushing, 18th in scoring on the first year of a new offense.  It wasn't good but at least we were competing and not getting the doors blown off by the second quarter.  Nowhere near the $hit show we've seen since the beginning of the season - and yes Thomas was playing in the first game.  So DJ does not need a top 5 o-line to be competent.  He just needs one to let him at least hit the top of his drop to at least make a read and throw the ball. 


How is it that with better skill position players the offense as a whole has fallen off the face of the earth.  I swear if these bums are not just dogging it out there or something else is the issue.  Because to be this historically bad as an offense is unheard of.

If it's not top 5 there will be complaints about Jones not having one.  Bottom line the supporting cast will never be good enough for him unless they completely prop him up.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 12:13:53 AMIt was obvious from the start, because you make it so easy. Keep at it!  :ok:

Yep keep up the Jones needs everything else around him to be at an elite level because he isn't

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 12:32:10 AM1- Bias can be case be case basis. Fair point.

2- Putting posts up and people can decide how to digest the information & if it holds any weight (or is it only one side allowed, not the other or even a middle ground?).

I have knocked players I fully supported like Eli with his TO's (some due to wrs) but that was early on generally and his horrible sliding. Tiki when he was fumbling. Majority was self-inflicted, others were not. But it was all in context and need some patience. Again context.

3- Oh I have seen insinuations of it just being DJ, or any time to knock him, but when he has played great, not even a squeak. Again he can be blamed for things no doubt, but gotta see the big picture. I mentioned before how have the top players looked when their oline plays horrible. And all qbs have bad throws, seen quite a few this weekend even from great qbs. Now if it is an easy layups & becomes a trend, then it is a concern. How about that dime he dropped into waller near the end zone that he dropped?

4- I joined this site a long time ago, but just recently started being active. It reminds me of the old Giants forums, maybe not to that extreme. You have 2 sides who occasionally meet in the middle. As well as some who are neutral. And all sides have their moments when they get frustrated with our favorite team & need to let off some steam whether it is warranted or not.

Then you have trolls that want to have their fun (no matter the side).

5- Not sure if they have the feature for the forum, if not maybe they can add it. A block user feature. Helps you ignore the person/people you want.

I found out you can just ignore posters. Their posts don't show up. It's great. I ignored about 5-6 posters and see much improvement

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 05:35:33 AMIf it's not top 5 there will be complaints about Jones not having one.  Bottom line the supporting cast will never be good enough for him unless they completely prop him up.

Greg,

Can you provide a link to just one post where a poster here at BBH said Jones must have a top 5 offensive line?   

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 12:32:10 AM1- Bias can be case be case basis. Fair point.

2- Putting posts up and people can decide how to digest the information & if it holds any weight (or is it only one side allowed, not the other or even a middle ground?).

I have knocked players I fully supported like Eli with his TO's (some due to wrs) but that was early on generally and his horrible sliding. Tiki when he was fumbling. Majority was self-inflicted, others were not. But it was all in context and need some patience. Again context.

3- Oh I have seen insinuations of it just being DJ, or any time to knock him, but when he has played great, not even a squeak. Again he can be blamed for things no doubt, but gotta see the big picture. I mentioned before how have the top players looked when their oline plays horrible. And all qbs have bad throws, seen quite a few this weekend even from great qbs. Now if it is an easy layups & becomes a trend, then it is a concern. How about that dime he dropped into waller near the end zone that he dropped?

4- I joined this site a long time ago, but just recently started being active. It reminds me of the old Giants forums, maybe not to that extreme. You have 2 sides who occasionally meet in the middle. As well as some who are neutral. And all sides have their moments when they get frustrated with our favorite team & need to let off some steam whether it is warranted or not.

Then you have trolls that want to have their fun (no matter the side).

5- Not sure if they have the feature for the forum, if not maybe they can add it. A block user feature. Helps you ignore the person/people you want.

2 - There's a difference between posting content for the forum to digest and putting your own spin on it.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 09, 2023, 10:53:58 AMFunny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias.

3 - Your response speaks directly to my point about intellectual dishonesty. Go back to the day after the Arizona win and you'll see plenty of squeaks about Jones.

4 - Not agreeing on a topic is not the same as twisting someone's words. Huge difference and too many people create strawmen to argue against and it causes threads to go off the rails because no one wants to be misinterpreted and go into defense mode.

5 - Yes, there is a block feature. Rich and the moderation team have routinely suggested and requested that members use it. Unfortunately, as a moderator, we don't have that luxury. Despite having that feature, it doesn't give members the go-ahead to be aggressive (passively or directly), twists words, or otherwise disrespect other members and then say, "If you don't like what I'm saying, block me."

Frustration is one thing. Arguing about who is more to blame or who deserves the most credit is childish at best. It screams "I need attention!" and it's a huge turn off. Very few people here agree to disagree. The same few people bring up Jones in every thread. The same few people deflect from Jones in every thread. Both sides are annoying as hell.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 08:18:38 AMGreg,

Can you provide a link to just one post where a poster here at BBH said Jones must have a top 5 offensive line?   

Can you provide a link to multiple posters saying Daniel Jones is a bad QB?

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 08:42:14 AMCan you provide a link to multiple posters saying Daniel Jones is a bad QB?

You didn't answer my question, which I knew would happen, because you were making up strawman arguments.

As to your challenge, I think one (from you) will do

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 08, 2023, 04:34:36 PMThe Giants don't have a good QB that's for sure and you can't win in this league if you don't have one.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 08:52:26 AMYou didn't answer my question, which I knew would happen, because you were making up strawman arguments.

As to your challenge, I think one (from you) will do

Doesn't look like that says Jones is a bad QB.  Not good doesn't say bad or imply bad.  But again we're using a strawman argument while accusing others of doing so.

Not good and bad are two different things

Average is right inbetween the two

Quote from: True Blue on October 10, 2023, 08:57:11 AMNot good and bad are two different things

Average is right inbetween the two

In fairness, you and @Rambo89 spend like 90% of your posts bashing Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your negative views of Jones.  For two people who claim that they believe he is just an "average QB" that seems rather odd.  If you guys honestly believe he Jones is just an average QB, why the constant need to put the man down, especially when he is playing under what is universally considered very difficult circumstances?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 08:59:46 AMIn fairness, you and @Rambo89 spend like 90% of your posts bashing Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your negative views of Jones.  For two people who claim that they believe he is just an "average QB" that seems rather odd.  If you guys honestly believe he Jones is just an average QB, why the constant need to put the man down, especially when he is playing under what is universally considered very difficult circumstances?

Yes, they post a lot about Jones and it's all repetitive. Nothing new.

But it does not equate to bashing. It's misrepresentation like this that fuels the back and forth.

The incessant repetition is more akin to dead horse beating.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 08:59:46 AMIn fairness, you and @Rambo89 spend like 90% of your posts bashing Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your negative views of Jones.  For two people who claim that they believe he is just an "average QB" that seems rather odd.  If you guys honestly believe he Jones is just an average QB, why the constant need to put the man down, especially when he is playing under what is universally considered very difficult circumstances?

Kind of like those who spend 95% of their time defending Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your positive views of Jones.  If you don't believe Jones is elite why the constant need to defend him and deflect from his own play especially after the Giants just gave him a big contract?

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 09:15:20 AMYes, they post a lot about Jones and it's all repetitive. Nothing new.

But it does not equate to bashing. It's misrepresentation like this that fuels the back and forth.

The incessant repetition is more akin to dead horse beating.

According to Google the definition of "bashing" is "severe criticism"   

I struggle to see how you could claim that is a "misrepresentation"

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 09:22:11 AMAccording to Google the definition of "bashing" is "severe criticism"   

I struggle to see how you could claim that is a "misrepresentation"

What constitutes "severe" criticism? Saying Jones is a pedestrian QB who doesn't elevate the play of his team is not severe. Saying Jones needs to be propped up to be an above average QB is not severe. That is what they have been saying, repeatedly, in multiple threads, over and over and over and over.

If there's any 'bashing' going on, it's the rest of us that have been subjected to it in every thread.

The misrepresentation is calling it bashing, when it isn't.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 09:31:31 AMWhat constitutes "severe" criticism? Saying Jones is a pedestrian QB who doesn't elevate the play of his team is not severe. Saying Jones needs to be propped up to be an above average QB is not severe. That is what they have been saying, repeatedly, in multiple threads, over and over and over and over.

If there's any 'bashing' going on, it's the rest of us that have been subjected to it in every thread.

The misrepresentation is calling it bashing, when it isn't.

Claiming Jones "needs everything perfect" to be successful is severe criticism.

When PFF gives Jones a good grade for his gutsy performance on Sunday the reaction is:

Quote from: LennG on October 09, 2023, 04:44:05 PM=))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))  =))

I'm OK, I'm OK, just was stunned a bit.

Those are but two examples of severe criticism

Now let's do the consistent severe criticism of the offensive line and a player like Neal from the same people over and over.  Why is that ok but it's not ok when it's Daniel Jones?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 09:44:59 AMClaiming Jones "needs everything perfect" to be successful is severe criticism.

When PFF gives Jones a good grade for his gutsy performance on Sunday the reaction is:



Those are but two examples of severe criticism

I'm sorry, Rich. I don't see either of those responses as "severe criticism" of Jones. Unfortunately, Jones does not routinely elevate his play and bring his teammates with him. Even in clean pockets, he has issues.

PFF is not the end all be all. People here on this site routinely do not agree with or care about what PFF says. No matter how many data points they use, it is still someone else's opinion. Not taking that opinion seriously does not constitute "severe criticism" of Jones. Hell, I had an issue with Isiah Simmons being in the "goat" category a few games back when he was the leading tackler!

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 09:57:32 AMI'm sorry, Rich. I don't see either of those responses as "severe criticism" of Jones. Unfortunately, Jones does not routinely elevate his play and bring his teammates with him. Even in clean pockets, he has issues.

PFF is not the end all be all. People here on this site routinely do not agree with or care about what PFF says. No matter how many data points they use, it is still someone else's opinion. Not taking that opinion seriously does not constitute "severe criticism" of Jones. Hell, I had an issue with Isiah Simmons being in the "goat" category a few games back when he was the leading tackler!

Severe is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:10:06 AMSevere is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

So now we're back to opinions being passed off as fact? You've spoken out about this plenty.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:14:02 AMSo now we're back to opinions being passed off as fact? You've spoken out about this plenty.

That is incorrect; if I say there is a beautiful woman, I am not passing that off as fact; I am giving my opinion of the woman's looks.  When I use the term "bash," I am giving my opinion of the severity of said criticism.  You seem determined to invent some sort of fault on my part when none exists (at least in this case).

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 05:35:33 AMIf it's not top 5 there will be complaints about Jones not having one.  Bottom line the supporting cast will never be good enough for him unless they completely prop him up.

I get that there are those who argue that Jones needs 100% everything to be perfect from him to produce and albeit I have supported Jones - I agree with you he doesn't need everything to be perfect to produce because we expect franchise QBs to at the very least make up the difference for their team.

Look at DJ in his rookie year - somewhat competent offensive minded HC, mediocre offensive line (https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2019/09/03/new-york-giants-offensive-line-ranks-17th-latest-pff-rankings/) - mind you thats withouth Andrew Thomas, and his main weapons were Saquon, Sheppard, Tate, Slayton and Engram - I wouldn't necessarily call them world beaters.  He threw for 3,027 yards or 238 per game, 24 tds or 2 tds per game and 2 to 1 TD/INT ratio.  He showed promised.  His main gripe was decision making considering he was rookie and ball protection.

So he has produced even with not the best around him.

If we compare him to the others Burrow - trash oline, but 2 #1 WRs plus Boyd who could be number 1 with our current roster.  Herbert - had a trash oline as a rookie (https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings) but he had Mike Williams, Keenan Allen and Ekeler. 

My point at one time DJ did not have even any of the 3 - oline, weapons, coaching because he was stuck with the ineptitude of Judge/Garrett.

And fast forward to this year where we all believe he was poised for a break out season until the offensive line put on an absolute $hit show.  Even with Lamar with all his athleticism and elusiveness would be destroyed with our offensive line.

At this point in his career - with DJ being damaged as he is due to the offensive line - not just physically but with his psyche also - you see it when he has had time, he was still rushing throws in the fear of being sacked thats why he was short on that throw to Wandale, its time for management to start looking for a long term replacement at QB.

Its unfortunate that a kid who showed a lot of promise his rookie year its nowhere near that given with what this front office and owners have done and have not done to support him and let him develop.  Not to mention half the fan base is trashing you every chance they get - case in point him being booed at Yankee Stadium and many others.  Im amazed that he hasn't thrown the organization, his team mates, his coaches and even the fan base (IE Evan Neal) under the bus.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:10:06 AMSevere is a matter of opinion, in your opinion (and the opinion of others) the criticism isn't severe, in my opinion (and the opinion of others) it is severe.

So we agree it's all opinion based about how we perceive what it is and that there isn't a right or wrong here?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:18:42 AMThat is incorrect; if I say there is a beautiful woman, I am not passing that off as fact; I am giving my opinion of the woman's looks.  When I use the term "bash," I am giving my opinion of the severity of said criticism.  You seem determined to invent some sort of fault on my part when none exists (at least in this case).

Rich,

Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing what it is I see as a major problem on this site.

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

That's the fault I see on your part.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 09:44:59 AMClaiming Jones "needs everything perfect" to be successful is severe criticism.

When PFF gives Jones a good grade for his gutsy performance on Sunday the reaction is:



Those are but two examples of severe criticism

That is because many people believe PFF is a farce. I know that doesn't sit well with some but we are allowed to have that opinion.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 08:59:46 AMIn fairness, you and @Rambo89 spend like 90% of your posts bashing Jones (directly or indirectly) or arguing with people who don't share your negative views of Jones.  For two people who claim that they believe he is just an "average QB" that seems rather odd.  If you guys honestly believe he Jones is just an average QB, why the constant need to put the man down, especially when he is playing under what is universally considered very difficult circumstances?

Because when anyone posts their opinion in a negative way, it is met with pushback. It is people's opinions. Why the need to push back?...why can't we all just let people have their opinion and leave it at that?..at the end of the day it is what it is.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:26:57 AMRich,

Maybe I'm having difficulty expressing what it is I see as a major problem on this site.

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

That's the fault I see on your part.

Tim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 09, 2023, 01:12:17 PMThink I am seeing why if you use PFF grades as the Bible and factual (when it's not) that you would come to the conclusion that Jones is usually great and it's all on the supporting cast.

Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:42:06 AMTim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.


Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

Rich,

You quoted me yet didn't address anything I said.

Personally, I don't care for PFF. I've said as much. I'm not too crazy about statistics in general because they can be presented to show whatever it is that needs to be shown.

But this isn't about PFF or people's response to their ratings.

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916031

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:42:06 AMTim,

Here is a prime example of the actual problem with our site (and it's not what you think).  I posted PFF grades as I have done for many years now.  Because Daniel Jones had a good grade from PFF, this is what he posted.


Now is that being respectful?   

Now before you try to figure out a way to blame me for his post, keep in mind I posted the grades without posting my opinion on the grades.  Could you see how when someone reacts so violently to simple PFF grades being posted, they create an impression of "bashing"?

I know this was directed at Tim but bringing up my post I thought I just clarify that when I said "you" in that thread I meant the general "you" not yourself personally.  If you go back that post did not include a quote from yourself it was a separate post.  If you took that as a shot at yourself I apologize as it wasn't the intention or implication of the post.

Rich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:48:42 AMRich,

You quoted me yet didn't address anything I said.

Personally, I don't care for PFF. I've said as much. I'm not too crazy about statistics in general because they can be presented to show whatever it is that needs to be shown.

But this isn't about PFF or people's response to their ratings.

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916031

If that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 05:39:24 AMYep keep up the Jones needs everything else around him to be at an elite level because he isn't

Again you showing ur truth.

First I never said DJ at the moment or near future will be elite. Time will tell what he is. So nice try.

Second I said he needs an average oline at least (where did you see me say elite?).

Third - it be nice if he had a #1 wr, but again that wasn't needed if our "speed" guys can get separation and hold on to the ball and/or not drop instantly. Not to mention worst rated wr core.

So if that is elite, not sure what you are reading or seeing. Again, keep it up.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:57:25 AMRich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

It's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:57:31 AMIf that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.

ARE YOU SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?!?!?!?!?

I have spent the last couple of hours being respectful and telling you that when you LABEL someone else's OPINIONS to fit your own views, it is intellectual dishonesty... something YOU yourself have introduced on this site to help everyone keep things on the up and up. Yet, when you do it and get called out on it, you completely move the goal posts to make it about PFF and Rambo's response to it???

Your site, your rules. You created this monster and continue to feed it.

If PFF is good enough to assess our OL, then it should be good enough to assess the QB; concerning the latter, DJ has a below-average 65 rating.  If you disagree with DJ's rating, than you just invalidated PFF scoring system, which makes the PFF discussion pointless. Agreeing with PFFs assessment on DJs performance makes the discussion equally pointless.  If you find value in PFF, both the OL and QB are below-average, which further invalidates this entire discussion. If you don't believe PFF ratings are accurate, why bother posting PFF scores at all...

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 10:57:25 AMRich,

If we are to value each other's opinions, then we can't relabel them to fit our views. When Rambo says "Jones needs to be propped up to be successful" and you say "Jones can't be successful without an NFL-caliber supporting cast", you're both saying the same thing. But you call it "bashing" or "severe criticism" when Rambo says it.

This is the third and last time I will seek your response on this.

"If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge Tim's statement."

Tim,

I didn't "dodge" the statement.  I saw it as misrepresenting Rambo's opinion.  Rambo has said that Jones needs a top 5 offensive line and anything less will be considered "unfair" by people like me.  I am pretty sure (but I don't feel like going back to find it) that he has suggested that everything needs to be perfect for Jones in order for him to play well.


That is different from my suggestion that Jones can do well if just given NFL-caliber support (in other words adequate or average) in terms of protection, coaching/scheme, and receiving talent.  I also think you are needlessly limiting the critics to just Rambo.  Did you see our forum last week after Jones had a bad game?  I will accuse you of misrepresenting if you don't think what we saw last week on this forum wasn't "bashing". 

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:04:03 AMTim,

I didn't "dodge" the statement.  I saw it as misrepresenting Rambo's opinion.  Rambo has said that Jones needs a top 5 offensive line and anything less will be considered "unfair" by people like me.  I am pretty sure (but I don't feel like going back to find it) that he has suggested that everything needs to be perfect for Jones in order for him to play well.


That is different from my suggestion that Jones can do well if just given NFL-caliber support (in other words adequate or average) in terms of protection, coaching/scheme, and receiving talent.  I also think you are needlessly limiting the critics to just Rambo.  Did you see our forum last week after Jones had a bad game?  I will accuse you of misrepresenting if you don't think what we saw last week on this forum wasn't "bashing". 

There you go again. Twisting things to fit YOUR narrative.

Rambo is a big boy. He can speak for himself. If I mis-stated his position, he would have said so. Furthermore, he gave my post a LIKE. So, I feel confident that I did not misrepresent his opinion.

You can "accuse" me of whatever you like. I do my best to be very deliberate and careful with what I post to try and avoid any ambiguity.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 10:57:31 AMIf that is your idea of how people should be conducting themselves here on this forum, we have a bigger issue.  The use of strawman arguments is fundamentally disrespectful, as you are misrepresenting other people's opinions.

People here are entitled to their opinions.  However, @Trench oversimplified things.  The reality is that to be respectful, you need not to be overstating your own opinion, and you can't be attacking others (as @Rambo89 did) just because they post grades you don't want to agree with.  People need to be respectful by not trying to hijack threads so they can continue overstating their opinions.

There is also another point, I don't think you appreciate.  In all my decades on this planet, I never once heard someone say they wish they could hear more complaints.  So when you are criticizing the team or the players or other members of the organization we are all fans of, if you are respectful of your fellow fans you should be erring on the side of less when trying to avoid being guilty of overstating one's views.

"@Trench oversimplified things"

I don't understand what that means?..was that a good thing or a bad thing?

Nothing was meant to be disrespectful if it was taken that way. I tried to express this in a previous post. Sometimes things are read differently than how a post was intended.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 08:26:35 AM2 - There's a difference between posting content for the forum to digest and putting your own spin on it.

3 - Your response speaks directly to my point about intellectual dishonesty. Go back to the day after the Arizona win and you'll see plenty of squeaks about Jones.

4 - Not agreeing on a topic is not the same as twisting someone's words. Huge difference and too many people create strawmen to argue against and it causes threads to go off the rails because no one wants to be misinterpreted and go into defense mode.

5 - Yes, there is a block feature. Rich and the moderation team have routinely suggested and requested that members use it. Unfortunately, as a moderator, we don't have that luxury. Despite having that feature, it doesn't give members the go-ahead to be aggressive (passively or directly), twists words, or otherwise disrespect other members and then say, "If you don't like what I'm saying, block me."

Frustration is one thing. Arguing about who is more to blame or who deserves the most credit is childish at best. It screams "I need attention!" and it's a huge turn off. Very few people here agree to disagree. The same few people bring up Jones in every thread. The same few people deflect from Jones in every thread. Both sides are annoying as hell.

1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:02:19 AMIt's a similar story when topics relating to the offensive line come up.  We all pretty much agree that the line has been bad yet it gets taken that if you're being critical of Jones that means you're giving the offensive line a pass.  It's creating a straw man that doesn't exist while at the same time accusing others of doing the same thing.

The line is horrible, beyond horrible and the reality is Jones is not doing anything to buffer against that and at times he is actually making a bad line worse. He isn't identifying empty coverage, overhang players, hot reads, needed coverage adjustments, etc... 18 sacks in the past 2 games and at least 6 of them are directly associated with his inability to do his job presnap.  Add in the lack of accuracy and he simply leaves too many plays on the field as a result of his shortcomings.

If Jones doesn't demand 82 mill over 2 years, he gets more of a pass.  He demanded $'s based on future upside and he isn't delivering on the contract he wanted and got. It amplifies everything, including his critics.

The mess on the line and the impact on the rebuild and the impact on DJ's development is on Schoen, Dg before him and Reese before him. 

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:12:30 AM1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Posting viewpoints from pros, beat writers, analysts, or even other fans is a great thing. I appreciate different perspectives. I don't have to agree with them but I also don't rail against them. Personally, I wouldn't have had an issue with your post if it wasn't for the "Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias." you led off with.

As far as the intellectual dishonesty goes, you stated that there wasn't as much as a squeak when Jones played well. I said there were plenty of squeaks after the Arizona win. In fact, a thread was LOCKED because the squeaks weren't loud enough.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 09:15:20 AMYes, they post a lot about Jones and it's all repetitive. Nothing new.

But it does not equate to bashing. It's misrepresentation like this that fuels the back and forth.

The incessant repetition is more akin to dead horse beating.

Really? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:12:30 AM1- Some people post to get their point across from the pros (good/bad) others post for debate or just to inform.

2- Not sure if you are calling me intellectually dishonest. But I have praised and criticized DJ from the start. But vs Arizona I may have posted in only one thread about him (also spoke about st, etc), as u said there are many threads on him ad nauseam. So the people who supported him or neutral posted. Many who are "against" him not much of a squeak. I post in both pro/con and neutral, win/lose or draw. But I limit them because it is tedious and repetitive and much of it is out of context.

But just like the old forums with the Eli debate at a point I totally ignored them all. Even after Eli won people still either gave him a short leash or wanted him gone. Seems similar to what we got here. DJ hasn't won't a SB (and may never will) but you get the same feeling as when Eli & TC heads were called for to be fired.

Haven't seen any criticism from Jones from you but maybe I missed that because most of the time I see you either defending him or taking shots at those who are critical of him.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:22:57 AMReally? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

Now apply this to all of the threads on the offensive line and commentary bashing them.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:09:04 AMThere you go again. Twisting things to fit YOUR narrative.

Rambo is a big boy. He can speak for himself. If I mis-stated his position, he would have said so. Furthermore, he gave my post a LIKE. So, I feel confident that I did not misrepresent his opinion.

You can "accuse" me of whatever you like. I do my best to be very deliberate and careful with what I post to try and avoid any ambiguity.

Check this out

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916067

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:21:42 AMPosting viewpoints from pros, beat writers, analysts, or even other fans is a great thing. I appreciate different perspectives. I don't have to agree with them but I also don't rail against them. Personally, I wouldn't have had an issue with your post if it wasn't for the "Funny how the pros and announcers can see the issue, yet others are blinded by their own Bias." you led off with.

As far as the intellectual dishonesty goes, you stated that there wasn't as much as a squeak when Jones played well. I said there were plenty of squeaks after the Arizona win. In fact, a thread was LOCKED because the squeaks weren't loud enough.

1- I used it as a way to jest to show the other side can do the same thing. But in all honesty as you say, they have to look at all things and decide for themselves. I have no issues with anyone posting things pro/con as it may open my eyes or give me another point of view, maybe it changes my mind, maybe it doesn't. But once u start beating a dead horse you made your point then I ignore/move on.

2- For the Ari posted I watched a bit then left. I posted in there, I saw many people who supported him post in there and some who come down on him, not post or backhanded compliments as per usual. So I stopped going in there. But if the haters or "realists" never said anything there, or backhanded compliments. I believe that supports my statement.

3- And we can agree to disagree. I actually do that quite often & move on. Did it several times in her already.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 10, 2023, 11:22:57 AMReally? The whole world knows their opinions and saying it obviously or overtly is not bashing? You can criticize the player, the plays but when everything is the same or sounds the same at what point do you put a cork in it? At what point is that not bullying/bashing. Your analogy of beating a dead horse is perfect example of bashing. Beating dead horse implies what? And then saying (bashing) the same thing over and over. Seems like bashing to me. Yes there are people similar on the other side. Still same crap, different smell.

I don't know if you've read the entire thread but MightyGiants posted what he found on Google that constituted "bashing": it said "severe criticism." So now that I had that definition from him, my responses focused on the "bashing/severe criticism."

Now you're saying beating a dead horse is also bashing. Fine.

There is a difference. The bashing/severe criticism of Jones is not what it's made out to be. The constant, incessant criticism in every single thread does not constitute bashing, from where I sit.

Check this out and by the way this was a post that @MightyGiants liked encouraging shots at people who are critical of Jones as "lacking common sense".  What does it say to posters when he likes a post like that being in his position?  It says he supports those who take personal shots at Jones critics.

Quote from: DragonSoul on October 06, 2023, 01:34:03 PMNice job with the common sense. Most seem to be lacking. Get hit 30 times a game, you get shell shocked like David Carr did in Houston. Then ur internal clock is sped way up and you trust nothing. Which in turn makes you miss potential opportunities. Or you can stay in the pocket get drilled, then injured or a concussion as another option.

The line will finally be fixed when we we have no QB who can play that position well. There will be an oline but no real qb. Now we have a QB & when we had Eli & no oline.

T200,

What do you call the Jones consistent bashers who claim posters thst Jones needs "elite" talent in order for him to be successful - when not one poster has ever made this claim?

I know at least 4 posters who made this claim directly at me. That's why I am using the ignore posters.

These posters are the exact definition of posting "intellectually dishonesty".

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:32:24 AMI don't know if you've read the entire thread but MightyGiants posted what he found on Google that constituted "bashing": it said "severe criticism." So now that I had that definition from him, my responses focused on the "bashing/severe criticism."

Now you're saying beating a dead horse is also bashing. Fine.

There is a difference. The bashing/severe criticism of Jones is not what it's made out to be. The constant, incessant criticism in every single thread does not constitute bashing, from where I sit.

Tim,

Why wouldn't severe describe both quantity and quality?

Quote from: JT39 on October 10, 2023, 11:36:11 AMT200,

What do you call the Jones consistent bashers who claim posters thst Jones needs "elite" talent in order for him to be successful - when not one poster has ever made this claim?

I know at least 4 posters who made this claim directly at me. That's why I am using the ignore posters.

These posters are the exact definition of posting "intellectually dishonesty".

The same thing you would say to those who have labeled those who have said Jones is an average QB as being haters and saying he is bad QB.  The same thing you would say to those who have been critical of Jones as being labeled as people who are giving the offensive line a pass.

Let's not act like this is just going in one direction.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:26:29 AMCheck this out

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?msg=916067

What is it that you want me to see?

Look - I get it. Rambo has a few canned statements about Jones that he copies and pastes in just about every thread. You know it's coming, just like Jones checking down instead of hitting an open receiver. It is what it is.

As has already been pointed out: 1) he's not bashing Jones. If anything, we're taking more abuse having to read the same thing in every thread. But saying he's severely criticizing our QB is not correct. He's just stuck on repeating it. 2) He can be blocked.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:38:31 AMWhat is it that you want me to see?

Look - I get it. Rambo has a few canned statements about Jones that he copies and pastes in just about every thread. You know it's coming, just like Jones checking down instead of hitting an open receiver. It is what it is.

As has already been pointed out: 1) he's not bashing Jones. If anything, we're taking more abuse having to read the same thing in every thread. But saying he's severely criticizing our QB is not correct. He's just stuck on repeating it. 2) He can be blocked.

It's more than just him...

Quote from: JT39 on October 10, 2023, 11:36:11 AMT200,

What do you call the Jones consistent bashers who claim posters thst Jones needs "elite" talent in order for him to be successful - when not one poster has ever made this claim?

I know at least 4 posters who made this claim directly at me. That's why I am using the ignore posters.

These posters are the exact definition of posting "intellectually dishonesty".

First, I don't call them bashers. Here's what I consider a basher: someone who just trashes Jones for no reason and sees no good in him. I don't think we have any one on this site that feels that way.

What's the difference in saying Jones needs a true #1 receiver versus Jones needs elite talent around him?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:36:21 AMTim,

Why wouldn't severe describe both quantity and quality?

Was that your initial intent? Both quantity and quality?

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:38:31 AMWhat is it that you want me to see?

Look - I get it. Rambo has a few canned statements about Jones that he copies and pastes in just about every thread. You know it's coming, just like Jones checking down instead of hitting an open receiver. It is what it is.

As has already been pointed out: 1) he's not bashing Jones. If anything, we're taking more abuse having to read the same thing in every thread. But saying he's severely criticizing our QB is not correct. He's just stuck on repeating it. 2) He can be blocked.

I own my mistakes on here. I tried to clarify to Rich earlier (which he ignored) that my PFF thread post from yesterday was not intended to be a shot at him personally.  You're right that I am a big boy that can own mistakes admit wrong doing and acknowledge at times I'm repetitive.

What I can't stand are the individuals who refuse to acknowledge their own wrong doing and how similar their tactics are.  They make themselves out to be victims when they are no different than most of us here.

Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:47:19 AMI own my mistakes on here. I tried to clarify to Rich earlier (which he ignored) that my PFF thread post from yesterday was not intended to be a shot at him personally.  You're right that I am a big boy that can own mistakes admit wrong doing and acknowledge at times I'm repetitive.

What I can't stand are the individuals who refuse to acknowledge their own wrong doing and how similar their tactics are.  They make themselves out to be victims when they are no different than most of us here.

Admittedly, you've owned your sh*t. Now please... DO BETTER!

But that is for all of us, not just you.

The irony in all of this is that you've become the lightning rod of all that is wrong with the BBH. Kinda like our own Daniel Jones. Go figure.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:44:50 AMWas that your initial intent? Both quantity and quality?

To be frank, I hadn't really thought about it.  Having thought about it, I absolutely would say that quantity creates severity.  It's like I am at work, and someone comments that they think my shoes are not very flattering.  I wouldn't consider it a severe criticism of my wardrobe choice.  However, if every time I saw that person, they commented about how unattractive my shows were, I would feel that the criticism was severe.  Quantity can be its own quality.  So having considered the issue in more detail, yes, I think the quantity created the "bashing" impression for me.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:50:56 AMAdmittedly, you've owned your sh*t. Now please... DO BETTER!

But that is for all of us, not just you.

The irony in all of this is that you've become the lightning rod of all that is wrong with the BBH. Kinda like our own Daniel Jones. Go figure.

Rambo Dimes?  /sarcasm/

What I will never understand from some is the hyper obsession with Daniel Jones when overall the team absolutely stinks and is lacking in all areas.  Is this the New York Giants or the New York Daniel Jones?  This all needs to be rebuilt with a solid foundation on offense and defense.  Until that's done the Giants will never have long term success.  I don't see how one can watch this franchise stink up every Sunday slate and still have the main concern always be Daniel Jones.  Whether it's positive or negative.     

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:53:57 AMTo be frank, I hadn't really thought about it.  Having thought about it, I absolutely would say that quantity creates severity.  It's like I am at work, and someone comments that they think my shoes are not very flattering.  I wouldn't consider it a severe criticism of my wardrobe choice.  However, if every time I saw that person, they commented about how unattractive my shows were, I would feel that the criticism was severe.  Quantity can be its own quality.  So having considered the issue in more detail, yes, I think the quantity created the "bashing" impression for me.

Fair enough.

Question: The offense continues to struggle. Jones continues to be ineffective. The defense continues to miss tackles and give up chunks of yardage and big plays. Same thing they've done through five weeks. It's week 10. Do we not comment on what we see? If we do, through 10 weeks of abysmal football, would that not be considered "bashing" and "severe criticism"?

Quote from: Messiah717 on October 10, 2023, 11:58:08 AMWhat I will never understand from some is the hyper obsession with Daniel Jones when overall the team absolutely stinks and is lacking in all areas.  Is this the New York Giants or the New York Daniel Jones?  This all needs to be rebuilt with a solid foundation on offense and defense.  Until that's done the Giants will never have long term success.  I don't see how one can watch this franchise stink up every Sunday slate and still have the main concern always be Daniel Jones.  Whether it's positive or negative.     

It's a QB-driven league. It's how the league wants it. They even altered the rules to favor the passing game to prop the QBs up even more. They are generally the highest-paid player on their respective team. The team goes as the QB goes, generally speaking. Consistently successful teams are that way because of their QB. It comes with the territory.

Quote from: Messiah717 on October 10, 2023, 11:58:08 AMWhat I will never understand from some is the hyper obsession with Daniel Jones when overall the team absolutely stinks and is lacking in all areas.  Is this the New York Giants or the New York Daniel Jones?  This all needs to be rebuilt with a solid foundation on offense and defense.  Until that's done the Giants will never have long term success.  I don't see how one can watch this franchise stink up every Sunday slate and still have the main concern always be Daniel Jones.  Whether it's positive or negative.   

In a passing league a QB who is on their second contract is always going to get more attention and criticism when things aren't going well by the media and that team's fan base.  Fair or unfair it's just how it is.

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 12:04:08 PMIt's a QB-driven league. It's how the league wants it. They even altered the rules to favor the passing game to prop the QBs up even more. They are generally the highest-paid player on their respective team. The team goes as the QB goes, generally speaking. Consistently successful teams are that way because of their QB. It comes with the territory.

I agree it's obviously the position of all positions.  But this is a dumpster fire right now and it's looking like another floundering regime.  It's like a curse of the New York teams as they all refuse to rebuild correctly. 

Quote from: T200 on October 10, 2023, 11:42:56 AMFirst, I don't call them bashers. Here's what I consider a basher: someone who just trashes Jones for no reason and sees no good in him. I don't think we have any one on this site that feels that way.

What's the difference in saying Jones needs a true #1 receiver versus Jones needs elite talent around him?

Cause they are literally accusing posters of saying something we never said.

It's the mere definition of being dishonest.

Quote from: JT39 on October 10, 2023, 12:10:10 PMCause they are literally accusing posters of saying something we never said.

It's the mere definition of being dishonest.

It's been happening on both sides, unfortunately.

Quote from: JT39 on October 10, 2023, 12:10:10 PMCause they are literally accusing posters of saying something we never said.

It's the mere definition of being dishonest.

But you claim to be ignoring those users, if you can't see their posts how do you know what's being said? If you can no longer see whatever is bothering you, why is it still an issue that you are pushing back on?

We've already established the OL is just as criticized, but I guarantee MG gets no backlash for making another OL topic highlighting Evan Neals disastrous play.