Would you want the Giants to draft you?
1. Given what this team has done to Eli Manning - not giving a competent oline to prolong his career.
2. How inept this organization is in drafting and/or developing talent at the oline - this is going back all the way to 2008 when we last had a dominant oline.
3. The instability of management/coaching staff. It's like we're looking for new coaches every two or three years.
4. How brutal the fanbase is here and how the media will put you under a microscope.
On a side note I know Daboll won coach of the year last year but this team has made a complete 180 from what it was last year. Stupid untimely penalties that kill momentum/drives. Getting the plays late which has lead to unnecessary delay of games. Not to mention that absolute lack of effort especially in the offense. During Judge we were incompetent also offensively but were not getting the doors blown off us every single game. Not to mention knowing how incompetent your oline is but leaving your QB out to dry for teams to tee off them in a game that is done by the 3rd quarter is an absolute head scratcher.
Also why is Bobby Johnson still in the staff?
Teams that are in a position to draft a QB at the top of the draft typically aren't ideal situations which is why those teams are at the top of the draft. You can take this and also apply it to teams like the Bears and Cardinals who will also be in that position.
And BTW it makes no sense to bring up point number 3 then finish off the post by going after the coaches. You can't complain about instability and in the same breath go after the coach in year 2. At some point you need to give one of these guys a third season and coming off a playoff appearance and win in year one I think Daboll has earned that.
Eli Manning played 16 seasons. I can appreciate arguments on how certain things were handled, absolutely love the guy. But he did enjoy a long and successful career
He was a class act, who's play on the field matched up to his character. Would have loved to have him longer but prolonging his career is not something I would say the Giants failed to do.
Quote from: True Blue on October 10, 2023, 10:53:47 AMEli Manning played 16 seasons. I can appreciate arguments on how certain things were handled, absolutely love the guy. But he did enjoy a long and successful career
He was a class act, who's play on the field matched up to his character. Would have loved to have him longer but prolonging his career is not something I would say the Giants failed to do.
I said that in the context that we could still have competed even in the latter years of Eli's career had management/coaching given him help in the oline.
To answer the question, I would say no. The owner of the Giants literally admitted to doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones (their current QB). This season they are back to that "doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones". So why on earth would I believe that if I were drafted by the Giants things would go better for me?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 11:38:37 AMTo answer the question, I would say no. The owner of the Giants literally admitted to doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones (their current QB). This season they are back to that "doing everything to screw up Daniel Jones". So why on earth would I believe that if I were drafted by the Giants things would go better for me?
We could have had the same conversation in 2004 as to why would anyone want to come to the Giants after the Dave Brown, Kannel and Graham debacles along with Kerry Collins in the disaster of a 2003 season? Yet Eli Manning still wanted to come here over San Diego.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 10:45:32 AMTeams that are in a position to draft a QB at the top of the draft typically aren't ideal situations which is why those teams are at the top of the draft. You can take this and also apply it to teams like the Bears and Cardinals who will also be in that position.
And BTW it makes no sense to bring up point number 3 then finish off the post by going after the coaches. You can't complain about instability and in the same breath go after the coach in year 2. At some point you need to give one of these guys a third season and coming off a playoff appearance and win in year one I think Daboll has earned that.
Given with the track record our team has going back to 2008 do you have any confidence in being able to put a young QB coming in here to develop properly?
We couldn't even protect Eli let a alone a rookie who will be thrown into the fire day 1.
Then we're going to hear the same arguments made by those who supported DJ - well he doesn't have protection. He doesn't enough talent around him. There no competent coaches to develop him properly and 5 years down the line were back to square one.
It's called NFL for a reason - Not For Long - and the product that Dabes and Co are putting out there is garbage. Like I said, he's not going to throw anyone under the bus but there is something wrong in that locker room and Daboll knows it.
From being competitive even in spite of the lack of talent to supposedly better talent all around and getting blown out is absolutely alarming.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:44:13 AMWe could have had the same conversation in 2004 as to why would anyone want to come to the Giants after the Dave Brown, Kannel and Graham debacles along with Kerry Collins in the disaster of a 2003 season? Yet Eli Manning still wanted to come here over San Diego.
We had TC. He has a track record even with the Jaguars - as new franchise they were competitive during his tenure there. We also had a good GM and a well respected owner. That is completely different now.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:45:45 AMGiven with the track record our team has going back to 2008 do you have any confidence in being able to put a young QB coming in here to develop properly?
We couldn't even protect Eli let a alone a rookie who will be thrown into the fire day 1.
Then we're going to hear the same arguments made by those who supported DJ - well he doesn't have protection. He doesn't enough talent around him. There no competent coaches to develop him properly and 5 years down the line were back to square one.
It's called NFL for a reason - Not For Long - and the product that Dabes and Co are putting out there is garbage. Like I said, he's not going to throw anyone under the bus but there is something wrong in that locker room and Daboll knows it.
From being competitive even in spite of the lack of talent to supposedly better talent all around and getting blown out is absolutely alarming.
Again look at the Bears and Cardinals. The Bears best QB that I can remember is Jay Cutler. They've been a rotation of bad QB's that change frequently. Then you have the Cardinals who a year after drafting Rosen dumped him to draft Murray. Now they are looking to get him.
Unless you are in a situation like Mahomes was being drafted 10th when the team drafting him traded up chances are you are going to be drafted by a franchise that's a mess. Trevor Lawrence was and yet he has succeeded in Jacksonville.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:48:08 AMWe had TC. He has a track record even with the Jaguars - as new franchise they were competitive during his tenure there. We also had a good GM and a well respected owner. That is completely different now.
Maybe you don't remember but at the time Coughlin didn't have the best reputation as being a player friendly coach after the way things ended in Jacksonville.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:51:41 AMAgain look at the Bears and Cardinals. The Bears best QB that I can remember is Jay Cutler. They've been a rotation of bad QB's that change frequently. Then you have the Cardinals who a year after drafting Rosen dumped him to draft Murray. Now they are looking to get him.
Unless you are in a situation like Mahomes was being drafted 10th when the team drafting him traded up chances are you are going to be drafted by a franchise that's a mess. Trevor Lawrence was and yet he has succeeded in Jacksonville.
Maybe you don't remember but at the time Coughlin didn't have the best reputation as being a player friendly coach after the way things ended in Jacksonville.
They cut ties with Meyer and got Pedersen to help develop Lawrence. While DJ had a coach who knew how to use him and they let him go to get Judge/Garrett. That's the complete opposite.
They also went into free agency to add talent to the WR group who actually have produced. Did Golladay do anything for us to help with the development of DJ? No. Has Waller helped bailing out DJ thus far? No - in fact you put number 88 on him and you could swear it's like having Engram with his case of dropsies.
Not to mention aside from the media @$s kissing that Lawrence gets, he doesn't have half the fan base bashing him.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:58:10 AMThey cut ties with Meyer and got Pedersen to help develop Lawrence. While DJ had a coach who knew how to use him and they let him go to get Judge/Garrett. That's the complete opposite.
They also went into free agency to add talent to the WR group who actually have produced. Did Golladay do anything for us to help with the development of DJ? No. Has Waller helped bailing out DJ thus far? No - in fact you put number 88 on him and you could swear it's like having Engram with his case of dropsies.
Not to mention aside from the media @$s kissing that Lawrence gets, he doesn't have half the fan base bashing him.
Unless you want to fire Schoen and Daboll you would have an executive and a coach who were responsible for drafting and developing Josh Allen in Buffalo. The same argument can be made as you did for Jacksonville with Trevor Lawrence.
At the end of the day a blue chip QB prospect is not going to turn away the idea of being drafted by the Giants unless it's a case like Philip Rivers who was a good old country boy who would never have been comfortable in a big market.
how many 1st rounders pull an Eli and refuse to play for a team? Players get their shot at the dream of an nfl career and the team that drafts them is the team for which they play [until traded, cut, hurt, etc.].
Quote from: GMenRF on October 10, 2023, 11:48:08 AMWe had TC. He has a track record even with the Jaguars - as new franchise they were competitive during his tenure there. We also had a good GM and a well respected owner. That is completely different now.
Not sure what you are referring to here. We have had the same owner for forever and our GM then was Jerry Reese, who most feel under-performed thru most of his tenure here.
Just a thought on Eli. Sure, I'd bet he would have liked to have played another year or so, but we weren't going to the SB, and looking back, it was probably the best thing that ever happened to Eli. He is safe, and healthy and he is making all kinds of money just doing whatever he wants.
Quote from: President Rick on October 10, 2023, 12:27:31 PMhow many 1st rounders pull an Eli and refuse to play for a team? Players get their shot at the dream of an nfl career and the team that drafts them is the team for which they play [until traded, cut, hurt, etc.].
Plus now with college players being essentially paid (and the stars paid well), it's easier for QBs to stay in school if they don't like their NFL prospects
Yeah, a QB about to be drafted number one will say no to the team drafting him because they are a bad team. Trevor Lawrence protested mightily to play with that stellar franchise, the Jacksonville Jaguars. Seriously? If the Giants have the number one pick, Caleb Williams will not say no.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 11:44:13 AMWe could have had the same conversation in 2004 as to why would anyone want to come to the Giants after the Dave Brown, Kannel and Graham debacles along with Kerry Collins in the disaster of a 2003 season? Yet Eli Manning still wanted to come here over San Diego.
I do not see it. In 2004, the Giants were three seasons removed from a Super Bowl appearance, and the team had just hired Tom Coughlin, who had taken the expansion Jags to a conference championship. The new QB would get to play alongside Tiki Barber, Ike Hilliard, Amani Toomer, and Jeremy Shockey The 2003 line wasn't great (not as bad as what we have now) the team certainly committed to an upgrade so when Eli Manning took the field he was protected by:
David Diehl T, Shaun O'Hara C, Luke Petitgout T, Chris Snee G and Jason Whittle G
People will always romanticize the Giants because we've won 2 super bowls that people can still remember and if you do win in the market then you are the guy and that can do wonders for your off the field career.
So no I doubt anyone would turn down the Giants for the bears or panthers.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 10, 2023, 01:27:05 PMPeople will always romanticize the Giants because we've won 2 super bowls that people can still remember and if you do win in the market then you are the guy and that can do wonders for your off the field career.
So no I doubt anyone would turn down the Giants for the bears or panthers.
People have short term memories of what the Giants used to be like. It almost feels like those people are bashing the Giants to justify their own position over the current team's situation. I just don't see how anyone can make the case that a QB prospect is going to see the Bears or Cardinals (remember Carolina doesn't have their 24 1st round pick) as a more favorable landing spot than the Giants.
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Why wouldn't one of these young QBs in the next draft just pull an Eli and refuse to play for the Giants? They have failed at supporting a QB for 12 years. Being drafted by them at this point is virtually career suicide. Do you think Deion would let his son go there? No chance!!!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 10, 2023, 01:27:05 PMPeople will always romanticize the Giants because we've won 2 super bowls that people can still remember and if you do win in the market then you are the guy and that can do wonders for your off the field career.
So no I doubt anyone would turn down the Giants for the bears or panthers.
Quote from: Rambo89 on October 10, 2023, 01:46:11 PMPeople have short term memories of what the Giants used to be like. It almost feels like those people are bashing the Giants to justify their own position over the current team's situation. I just don't see how anyone can make the case that a QB prospect is going to see the Bears or Cardinals (remember Carolina doesn't have their 24 1st round pick) as a more favorable landing spot than the Giants.
There was a time when this was most certainly true. NY was the media capital of the world, and if you were good and playing in this region, you got tons of publicity and exposure.
These days, I am not sure how much that is still true. First, traditional media isn't what it used to be, with the internet and social media having joined the party. Secondly, technological advances are such that almost anywhere can serve as a TV studio for interviews. So you don't need to be local for national media to give a player lots of exposure.
On the down side, this area has a high cost of living and state income tax.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 10, 2023, 02:06:16 PMThere was a time when this was most certainly true. NY was the media capital of the world, and if you were good and playing in this region, you got tons of publicity and exposure.
These days, I am not sure how much that is still true. First, traditional media isn't what it used to be, with the internet and social media having joined the party. Secondly, technological advances are such that almost anywhere can serve as a TV studio for interviews. So you don't need to be local for national media to give a player lots of exposure.
On the down side, this area has a high cost of living and state income tax.
The point is the Giants aren't a more undesirable landing spot for an elite QB prospect than the Bears or Cardinals. It's a false narrative that it's a franchise that no elite QB prospect would want to be drafted by.
The Eli comparison fall short for me, as does the Deion Sanders one. The reason being is that the top prospects that have a father that was a successful NFL player are few and far between. Would Eli have felt the same about SD if his father wasn't Archie? We will never know.
What I think we do know, is that guys coming out of college that get drafted in the top 5 or 10 have a 99.99% (or so) chance that they play for the team that drafted them. Guys that get drafted that high generally feel like they can be what turns a franchise around.
This idea that future QBs will not want to come to the Giants seems absurd to me. Did Tua try and get out of Miami? they didn't do QBs any favors for about 30 years. Mahomes was mentioned, did he try and get out of KC? He was the 1st QB they drafted to win a game for the franchise since 83! But I guess they had a reputation for doing great things for QBs. Yeah I know Andy Reid was there. Remember what he was labelled as at that point around here? Bad at time management, can't win the big games? Why would any QB want to go there?
How many QBs get drafted every year and how many are successful? How many teams have gone through QB after QB for decades and guys still get drafted and play there?
I think prior to Eli, wasn't Elway the only who said he wouldn't play somewhere?
Bump
Another thought, the Giants got Jones hurt and likely will get him hurt again if he returns. Who would sign up for that?
Why not fix the Offensive Line and actually find out what this QB can and can't do?
For now, sign Collins and get him and Pugh inserted into that Lineup on the Right side.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 11, 2023, 07:35:45 AMWhy not fix the Offensive Line and actually find out what this QB can and can't do?
For now, sign Collins and get him and Pugh inserted into that Lineup on the Right side.
It certainly isn't for a lack of trying. It's a combination of limited talent and coaching skills to teach that group how to be effective together. Between injuries and shuffling players in and out, it's hard to develop chemistry with the guy next to you.
Coaching has to figure out a way to determine the strengths and weaknesses of each individual along the line and then put in a protection plan to maximize their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. It sounds good but difficult to do... at least for our guys.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 11, 2023, 07:35:45 AMWhy not fix the Offensive Line and actually find out what this QB can and can't do?
For now, sign Collins and get him and Pugh inserted into that Lineup on the Right side.
The problem is with the unnecessary beating that DJ has taken its too little too late. He has if not already entered into David Carr territory.
Rushed throws even when there's no pressure. On top if that injuring his neck which was a major concern 2 years ago.
If I was in DJs shoes I'd tell management I'm not stepping on that field until Andrew Thomas suits up.
The big red flag for me is having you QB still on the field when the game is already decided. Is it simply to have the other team continue to beat him into oblivion. On top of that knowing your line is not going to hold up why are we still running spread offense and continue to pass the ball unnecessarily. You committed a lot of money to the player just to have him be a punching bag for the other team just makes no sense to me.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 11, 2023, 08:11:23 AMThe problem is with the unnecessary beating that DJ has taken its too little too late. He has if not already entered into David Carr territory.
Rushed throws even when there's no pressure. On top if that injuring his neck which was a major concern 2 years ago.
If I was in DJs shoes I'd tell management I'm not stepping on that field until Andrew Thomas suits up.
After getting more money than he deserves, he'd be a fool to take that stance.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 11, 2023, 08:11:23 AMThe problem is with the unnecessary beating that DJ has taken its too little too late. He has if not already entered into David Carr territory.
Rushed throws even when there's no pressure. On top if that injuring his neck which was a major concern 2 years ago.
If I was in DJs shoes I'd tell management I'm not stepping on that field until Andrew Thomas suits up.
The big red flag for me is having you QB still on the field when the game is already decided. Is it simply to have the other team continue to beat him into oblivion. On top of that knowing your line is not going to hold up why are we still running spread offense and continue to pass the ball unnecessarily. You committed a lot of money to the player just to have him be a punching bag for the other team just makes no sense to me.
If I were DJ's agent, I would be telling him not to rush back. His health and well-being is more important than any game.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 08:17:26 AMAfter getting more money than he deserves, he'd be a fool to take that stance.
How is that so?
Andrew Thomas gets to sit back and recover for as long as needed for his injury which is a hamstring.
Your QB, whom you have invested money to, which is the most important player on the team, who has his second injury to his neck ala if another serious one occurs means paralysis or worse, is not afforded the same time to recover? Especially with how atrocious the whole oline has been.
Then you are merely send your QB out on the field to be killed. It is a suicide mission as to what Rich alludes to.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 08:03:07 AMIt certainly isn't for a lack of trying. It's a combination of limited talent and coaching skills to teach that group how to be effective together. Between injuries and shuffling players in and out, it's hard to develop chemistry with the guy next to you.
Coaching has to figure out a way to determine the strengths and weaknesses of each individual along the line and then put in a protection plan to maximize their strengths while minimizing their weaknesses. It sounds good but difficult to do... at least for our guys.
I recall saying it somewhere but there was and is a serious lack of depth issue with this Line.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 11, 2023, 08:34:43 AMI recall saying it somewhere but there was and is a serious lack of depth issue with this Line.
I agree with this. To make matters worse:
The Giants went into Miami down 3 offensive linemen (Starting LT, Thomas, and C, JMS, as well as backup G, Lemieux). During the game, both Brederson (the new center) and their new RG McKethan went down (PS players were put in to replace them).
I don't think any NFL line, much less one lacking in depth, could function with 5 offensive linemen injured. Considering many teams go into the season with just 8 offensive linemen, that is a terrible attrition rate.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 11, 2023, 08:29:31 AMHow is that so?
Andrew Thomas gets to sit back and recover for as long as needed for his injury which is a hamstring.
Your QB, whom you have invested money to, which is the most important player on the team, who has his second injury to his neck ala if another serious one occurs means paralysis or worse, is not afforded the same time to recover? Especially with how atrocious the whole oline has been.
Then you are merely send your QB out on the field to be killed. It is a suicide mission as to what Rich alludes to.
To my knowledge, AT has not been medically cleared to play. He's not voluntarily sitting out. You're suggesting Jones sit out, while healthy enough to play, until Thomas is back in the lineup.
Second, Thomas plays ONE of the five line positions. He can't block everyone. Jones has been sacked with and without Thomas in the lineup. He's still going to get hit.
Quote from: T200 on October 11, 2023, 08:41:50 AMTo my knowledge, AT has not been medically cleared to play. He's not voluntarily sitting out. You're suggesting Jones sit out, while healthy enough to play, until Thomas is back in the lineup.
Second, Thomas plays ONE of the five line positions. He can't block everyone. Jones has been sacked with and without Thomas in the lineup. He's still going to get hit.
I appreciate that Thomas is just one of five blockers, but consider- With Thomas and Brederson at LT and LG, Jones can somewhat count on those two not whiffing on blocks, meaning he should have at least 2 seconds of safety from that side most of the time. That allows Jones to focus on the threats coming from his right side. While not ideal, that situation is at least somewhat tenable.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 11, 2023, 08:40:06 AMI agree with this. To make matters worse:
The Giants went into Miami down 3 offensive linemen (Starting LT, Thomas, and C, JMS, as well as backup G, Lemieux). During the game, both Brederson (the new center) and their new RG McKethan went down (PS players were put in to replace them).
I don't think any NFL line, much less one lacking in depth, could function with 5 offensive linemen injured. Considering many teams go into the season with just 8 offensive linemen, that is a terrible attrition rate.
Absolutely but I have to put this on Schoen to a certain extent. He had Feliciano and Gates who are now starting on other teams as their backups. Gates may have even won a Guard position. They had the depth but they chose to sign a couple of Receivers that they rarely utilize. Using a Guard to be the backup Center.
Then there is the preparation and coaching that is lacking. They got a Lineman and a TE Injured because they didn't know how to execute a push and shove to get a yard.
The lack of continuity is on them.
Quote from: GMenRF on October 11, 2023, 08:11:23 AMIf I was in DJs shoes I'd tell management I'm not stepping on that field until Andrew Thomas suits up.
Daniel Jones is lucky John Mara loves him so much because any franchise that were in the Giants shoes after last season with the first four seasons Jones put up would have let him walk let alone paid him the contract the Giants did.
And it's not like Thomas is sitting out on purpose. He's dealing with an injury that takes away a tackles ability to push off the line. Do you want a compromised player on the field if the idea is to protect the QB? I sure don't. I want him to come back when he's able too and not rush back only to hurt himself even worse.