I don't actually want to do this in real life, because I feel we may need to draft a QB and I am also generally a BPA guy (with roster-building in mind), but what would it look like if we just did nothing but attack this O line problem exclusively with an entire draft? Like literally just go best O lineman available with every single pick. Would that solve this crisis once and for all? Perhaps not on day one but in the ensuring couple years?
I mean the team sucks regardless. We're obviously not winning a Super Bowl anytime soon. Is there an argument to be made for just coming in with an all-out assault blitz on this one unit to try to get it right once and for all?
I'm sure nobody will like this idea, but I have been hearing about our line being awful for a decade now, so whatever more standard approach we've been using to try to address the problem clearly hasn't worked. Is it time to try another approach?
The left side is very serviceable to good in Thomas, Brederson, and JMS. I think that they go get productive FA ie a RG and RT/swing and build depth with late round guys and UDFA.
We are 18 games into Neal's career, and he's played next to glow and mckethan. Think he deserves a little more time.
I feel like we'd be in danger of drafting 7 busts.
Wait, we've already done that.
There's definitely value in saying "let's get this one thing right once and for all" though. It works in business when you have to turn around a failing department or project.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 13, 2023, 06:15:35 PMI don't actually want to do this in real life, because I feel we may need to draft a QB and I am also generally a BPA guy (with roster-building in mind), but what would it look like if we just did nothing but attack this O line problem exclusively with an entire draft? Like literally just go best O lineman available with every single pick. Would that solve this crisis once and for all? Perhaps not on day one but in the ensuring couple years?
I mean the team sucks regardless. We're obviously not winning a Super Bowl anytime soon. Is there an argument to be made for just coming in with an all-out assault blitz on this one unit to try to get it right once and for all?
I'm sure nobody will like this idea, but I have been hearing about our line being awful for a decade now, so whatever more standard approach we've been using to try to address the problem clearly hasn't worked. Is it time to try another approach?
I would guess that the Giants are at or near the top of the league in amount of draft capital on their offensive line. 2 #1s, a #2, 2 #3s, 3 #4s (all acquired), and a #5. 9 guys drafted in the first 5 rounds, 6 by the Giants. 5 in the first 3 rounds.
They either mis-evaluate who they draft or do a horrific job at developing them. Or both.
I don't think draft quantity is the answer. The answer lies elsewhere, but don't ask me where that is.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on October 13, 2023, 06:36:27 PMI would guess that the Giants are at or near the top of the league in amount of draft capital on their offensive line. 2 #1s, a #2, 2 #3s, 3 #4s (all acquired), and a #5. 9 guys drafted in the first 5 rounds, 6 by the Giants. 5 in the first 3 rounds.
They either mis-evaluate who they draft or do a horrific job at developing them. Or both.
I don't think draft quantity is the answer. The answer lies elsewhere, but don't ask me where that is.
Ding ding ding we have an answer. 100% agree. We need 5 guys who as a unit are really good. That means sound in technique and great communicators/help between them. That is where we need to drill. Is one even a leader in the init vocally?
It's not just replacing a couple of starters, they need back ups too.
https://x.com/marcus3255/status/1712968399729345007?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
I think you go get a Dalton Risner the G in Minnesota or a guy like Evan Brown in Seattle who's playing like a top 10 guard that the Giants actually signed as a UDFA in 2018. 1 of those two guys solidifies RG period.
Then you go out and get either a top of the market RT like Jonah Williams/Trent Brown or you go mid level and grab a George Fant to battle with Neal and whoever loses becomes the swing.
A line of Thomas- Brederson- JMS, Evan Brown- Fant/Neal is a lot more appealing and can be had for half the cost of what we are paying Leonard Williams.
You then have Ezeudu, Mckethan, Neal plus any late round picks to continue to add depth every year and eventually you hit. The good teams hit on late round o line talent.
First though Bobby Johnson has to go. You can however completely transform the line with 2 simple signings this offseason.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 13, 2023, 07:31:59 PMhttps://x.com/marcus3255/status/1712968399729345007?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Fair point although we have all new (as of 2022) front office executives and scouts now. So I'm reluctant to say we "can't" pick talent with the current group. No doubt Neal has been a huge disappointment but I'm not ready to just declare Schoen and his team incapable at this point. Nor do I want to associate him with the previous regime by lumping the last two seasons in with the previous 4-5.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 13, 2023, 07:42:35 PMFair point although we have all new (as of 2022) front office executives and scouts now. So I'm reluctant to say we "can't" pick talent with the current group. No doubt Neal has been a huge disappointment but I'm not ready to just declare Schoen and his team incapable at this point. Nor do I want to associate him with the previous regime by lumping the last two seasons in with the previous 4-5.
Yeah I think when it's all said and done year 1 was a scratch but there's talent in the class year 2, JMS, Hyatt, both corners. They drafted well, even wandale is killing when he gets the ball, the Neal bust was what is holding the perception down but he was considered the safest bet out of the 3 OTs.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 13, 2023, 07:47:33 PMYeah I think when it's all said and done year 1 was a scratch but there's talent in the class year 2, JMS, Hyatt, both corners. They drafted well, even wandale is killing when he gets the ball, the Neal bust was what is holding the perception down but he was considered the safest bet out of the 3 OTs.
One thing the Giants should do is emulate the Eagles and let go of bad picks. Move on.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 13, 2023, 06:27:30 PMThe left side is very serviceable to good in Thomas, Brederson, and JMS. I think that they go get productive FA ie a RG and RT/swing and build depth with late round guys and UDFA.
We are 18 games into Neal's career, and he's played next to glow and mckethan. Think he deserves a little more time.
What makes a Bredeson and JMS "serviceable"? Bredeson has a PFF grade of 44 and JMS 49. Neither have been noteworthy so far this year. I hope hopes the JMS will develop but as of right now the Jets drafted the better center.
The hard cold reality is that we only have one proven commodity on the line. Everyone else should be fighting for their football lives.
They need to select more people in draft and fa to fill at a minimum 2 spots: RG and RT
Get 4 solid candidates, let dream rise to top and if you have extra trade them
QB, WR, RB and TE have no bearing on offensive success if you have no line
It's unfortunate it's come to this but enough is enough
Quote from: madbadger on October 13, 2023, 09:21:33 PMWhat makes a Bredeson and JMS "serviceable"? Bredeson has a PFF grade of 44 and JMS 49. Neither have been noteworthy so far this year. I hope hopes the JMS will develop but as of right now the Jets drafted the better center.
The hard cold reality is that we only have one proven commodity on the line. Everyone else should be fighting for their football lives.
A. Brederson is playing center for us right now not LG, when he was playing LG last year were he should be playing now he was easily the 2nd best lineman on the team and it wasn't close.
B. If you go back and watch the tape through preseason and the reps so far this season JMS played well, yes he's had a few rookie mistakes but the line isnt bad because of him, it's bad because he's sandwiched in-between Lemeuix and Mckethan. I have zero concern about JMS moving forward.
C. While the Jets drafted a guy that plays center, he currently is not their center but their RG.
The Jets interior vs the Giants interior
Lemuix(Glow)/ Brederson/ Mckethan
Tomlinson/McGovern/ Tippman
So yeah one was playing with a scrap heap and the other is playing with 2 guys coming off back to back ELITE PFF seasons but by default Tippman is healthy right now so I guess you can give him the nod.
We can't keep affording to overhaul the line every other season. Brederson is a good NFL guard if there are other good players around him, likely the same with JMS from what I've seen. We need a RG, and RT absolutely, but there's zero need to move on from a perfectly serviceable and cheap guard in Brederson when you can fix the bad parts on the line and he would be a good, cheap, contributing member to the line. We've drafted and signed way to many olineman to continue that cycle when we can plug the line with 2 signings of guys that we already know can play and use the draft to start filling the abundant amount of other holes we have because we've focused on the oline and wrs the past handful of drafts.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 13, 2023, 06:27:30 PMWe are 18 games into Neal's career, and he's played next to glow and mckethan. Think he deserves a little more time.
Sorry, but Neal's slow-motion footwork, terrible use of hands, and low IQ can't be blamed on others. He has been awful all on his own.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 13, 2023, 06:15:35 PMI'm sure nobody will like this idea, but I have been hearing about our line being awful for a decade now, so whatever more standard approach we've been using to try to address the problem clearly hasn't worked. Is it time to try another approach?
I know it's unrealistic, but I actually DON'T hate the idea. Until this O-Line is fixed, and I mean fixed correctly, as in NFL caliber players, this team is going nowhere.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 14, 2023, 06:53:03 AMSorry, but Neal's slow-motion footwork, terrible use of hands, and low IQ can't be blamed on others. He has been awful all on his own.
I think he's getting better. He played significantly better in Miami and actually had good tape outside of the final drive and the rep were Jones was injured.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 14, 2023, 02:16:18 PMI think he's getting better. He played significantly better in Miami and actually had good tape outside of the final drive and the rep were Jones was injured.
Being that he was one of the worst in the league, there was nowhere to go but up. He's still WAY too slow to be an NFL tackle and shows absolutely no awareness or recognition of anything outside of the most vanilla concepts.
I hold out a slim hope he could develop into an average or better OG, but he has no future at OT.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 14, 2023, 09:14:22 PMBeing that he was one of the worst in the league, there was nowhere to go but up. He's still WAY too slow to be an NFL tackle and shows absolutely no awareness or recognition of anything outside of the most vanilla concepts.
I hold out a slim hope he could develop into an average or better OG, but he has no future at OT.
Well you'll have to wait a while for that because as long as he shows progress whoever is coaching the Oline this coming season is going to give him a chance to succeed. At the earliest you're looking at 2025 before they would likely try moving him inside.