After showing he can move the ball and go downfield does Tyrod deserve a chance to play next week even if Jones is healthy?
I believe he has earned the right to get another game. He looked much more poised than Jones.
I would play Tyrod, see how he does, and give DJ time to make sure the neck is fine and 100%
The team moral was significantly better with Taylor playing.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 16, 2023, 12:11:09 AMThe team moral was significantly better with Taylor playing.
Toomer saying same thing on post game and said "Tyrod gets ball out faster than Jones, not getting sacked ans much and makes everyone on offense calm. Looks like a different brand of football and is more decisive"
Toomer words.
Sorry, but Jones isn't going to make 40 million sitting on the bench unless he's not medically cleared to play.
We're stuck with him for the next two full seasons.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 12:27:21 AMSorry, but Jones isn't going to make 40 million sitting on the bench unless he's not medically cleared to play.
We're stuck with him for the next two full seasons.
Agreed. But if he doesn't perform we WILL have a QB controversy sooner than later
Quote from: Trench on October 16, 2023, 12:29:32 AMAgreed. But if he doesn't perform we WILL have a QB controversy sooner than later
I disagree that there would be a controversy. I give Jones his due when he's earned it and I call him out when he messes up.
Tyrod made a huge blunder at the end of the half just like Jones threw the pick 6 and missed Waller. Jones would not have audibled to a run. Tyrod effed up.
In my view, Tyrod is more seasoned and comfortable operating behind a crappy line than Jones. I don't think that translates to more wins.
Yeah no chance DJ sits if he is 100%
I would however make sure he is 100%, given his history. Not one you want to risk as the consequences can be severe
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 12:27:21 AMSorry, but Jones isn't going to make 40 million sitting on the bench unless he's not medically cleared to play.
We're stuck with him for the next two full seasons.
I agree as far as this year goes, but not next year if they draft a QB in the top 10. They may be stuck with him in 2024 as far as being on the roster, but I don't think they'll feel any compulsion to play him all season next year if they have another option they think may give them a better chance of winning.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 06:53:56 AMI agree as far as this year goes, but not next year if they draft a QB in the top 10. They may be stuck with him in 2024 as far as being on the roster, but I don't think they'll feel any compulsion to play him all season next year if they have another option they think may give them a better chance of winning.
I'm inclined to agree with you but if they draft a QB this offseason, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that Mara will put more than his two cents in about the state of the offensive line, considering his prior statement about having "done everything to ruin this kid." It's nothing we don't already know but his undue influence is not something I welcome nor has it resulted in anything positive.
I know we just paid Jones the be the guy, but I want to know by the end of this season if he is THE GUY. Offensive line issues aside, there are some backups in the league and rookie QBs outplaying him right now. If he is healthy, he plays, especially if Kafka is now going to call plays to move the pocket like he did for Taylor.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on October 16, 2023, 07:02:30 AMI know we just paid Jones the be the guy, but I want to know by the end of this season if he is THE GUY. Offensive line issues aside, there are some backups in the league and rookie QBs outplaying him right now. If he is healthy, he plays, especially if Kafka is now going to call plays to move the pocket like he did for Taylor.
Agreed.
I think Jones should start if healthy. However, if nothing else, I would say they should be less inclined to ride Jones into the ground in games if he is not effective, and be more open to pulling him if he is not performing. Taylor showed last night that he is capable of playing no worse than Jones has played in the majority of games this year. So if Jones isn't getting it done, I see no reason why they should not give Taylor more opportunities to try to help the team.
How much of that had to do with barkley being back in the lineup? i think you have to see what jones looks like with him back in. if tyrod is out there throwing 250 and 3 tds every game then yes. i get it. but i think the "significantly" better talk is a little much. if jones made that mental error at the end of the half (which daboll bears responsibility for taking too much time before calling a timeout with about 35 seconds left), you guys would never EVER forgive him for that. tyrod looks ok, but he's not shell shocked.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 16, 2023, 07:10:29 AMHow much of that had to do with barkley being back in the lineup? i think you have to see what jones looks like with him back in. if tyrod is out there throwing 250 and 3 tds every game then yes. i get it. but i think the "significantly" better talk is a little much. if jones made that mental error at the end of the half (which daboll bears responsibility for taking too much time before calling a timeout with about 35 seconds left), you guys would never EVER forgive him for that. tyrod looks ok, but he's not shell shocked.
Didn't we witness that during week 1?
Quote from: Trench on October 15, 2023, 11:51:37 PMAfter showing he can move the ball and go downfield does Tyrod deserve a chance to play next week even if Jones is healthy?
I believe he has earned the right to get another game. He looked much more poised than Jones.
I agree he looked poised and move the ball well at times.....he has much more experience than Jones at this point. And I might even want to give him another chance......maybe it will come next week if Jones is not healthy......but don't underestimate the role of a healthy Barkley and what his effect on the offense is ...
If Jones starts next week with Barkley as a running back ...and still stinks it up ...then give Taylor another shot.....but that won't likely happen with the money invested in Jones....still a business.
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Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 07:07:10 AMAgreed.
I think Jones should start if healthy. However, if nothing else, I would say they should be less inclined to ride Jones into the ground in games if he is not effective, and be more open to pulling him if he is not performing. Taylor showed last night that he is capable of playing no worse than Jones has played in the majority of games this year. So if Jones isn't getting it done, I see no reason why they should not give Taylor more opportunities to try to help the team.
Help the team how? Win a game or two?
I'm pretty sure Schoen and Daboll know Jones isn't the answer. If next year's crop of QBs is deep, every win garnered moves the Giants away from a top pick.
Plus, if he's getting paid to play, win, lose, or draw, he needs to be out there, unless he's injured.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 07:41:21 AMHelp the team how? Win a game or two?
I'm pretty sure Schoen and Daboll know Jones isn't the answer. If next year's crop of QBs is deep, every win garnered moves the Giants away from a top pick.
Plus, if he's getting paid to play, win, lose, or draw, he needs to be out there, unless he's injured.
I guess I'm just a sports fan who is the view that (in all sports I follow at least) if a player on the field isn't getting it done, I want someone else to get a shot. This idea that Jones should be immune to being pulled no matter what is one I just don't understand. And I don't see how that's good for team morale either. Why should he get a guarantee to be on the field that no other player gets?
I have made the comparison to hockey before, but the Rangers (for those who don't know/care) have a top three goalie in the league. Because he's very good, he rarely gets pulled, but in no way shape or form is he immune to being pulled. If he's simply off one night and is giving up multiple goals he shouldn't be, the coach will sit him down and put the backup in. Even if the game is likely out of reach at that point. It has happened a number of times with him. That's just sports in general to me. Baseball and basketball are no different.
Tyrod's warts will come out the longer he plays. I've seen him play alot of games with Buffalo and he was shown the door for a reason.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 07:55:56 AMI guess I'm just a sports fan who is the view that (in all sports I follow at least) if a player on the field isn't getting it done, I want someone else to get a shot. This idea that Jones should be immune to being pulled no matter what is one I just don't understand. And I don't see how that's good for team morale either. Why should he get a guarantee to be on the field that no other player gets?
It's inherent in the position. He gets paid the most money so he's going to play. Very few QBs get pulled for poor play. You look at Gray. He muffed a punt earlier in the season (Giants recovered) and hasn't seen punt return duty since. Jones's play has been abysmal (along with the entire offense) but he stays in the game, unless he's hurt. Most other teams have a huge drop between the starting QB and the backup. Not so with us. So, in essence, I get your point.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 08:01:17 AMIt's inherent in the position. He gets paid the most money so he's going to play. Very few QBs get pulled for poor play. You look at Gray. He muffed a punt earlier in the season (Giants recovered) and hasn't seen punt return duty since. Jones's play has been abysmal (along with the entire offense) but he stays in the game, unless he's hurt. Most other teams have a huge drop between the starting QB and the backup. Not so with us. So, in essence, I get your point.
I totally hear you. And so far Daboll has not been willing to pull Jones (apart from at the very end of games), so maybe that won't change.
I do think the dynamic will be very different next year though if we have a top 10 drafted rookie QB on the roster. That would mean Jones is basically in a lame duck situation and is only still on the team because they can't get rid of him with that exorbitant cap hit, so I doubt they would wait any longer than they want to to get the rookie in (should the team be in that situation).
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 08:11:44 AMI totally hear you. And so far Daboll has not been willing to pull Jones (apart from at the very end of games), so maybe that won't change.
I do think the dynamic will be very different next year though if we have a top 10 drafted rookie QB on the roster. That would mean Jones is basically in a lame duck situation and is only still on the team because they can't get rid of him with that exorbitant cap hit, so I doubt they would wait any longer than they want to to get the rookie in (should the team be in that situation).
I only wanted to see Taylor start and play a full game to compare him and Jones. I saw all I needed to see. They are essentially the same player.
I say continue to play Jones. If he can't go, Taylor can come in and do the same with the same odds of winning or losing. The most we gain is composure in the pocket and a willingness to throw downfield. Maybe Jones got a chance to see that he can indeed sling it down the sideline to try and make something happen.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 16, 2023, 07:40:01 AMDidn't we witness that during week 1?
Week 1 was an all time a$$ whooping. they grossly overestimated themselves. we looked pretty good week 2 with both of them right?
Quote from: BPFan1 on October 16, 2023, 07:57:12 AMTyrod's warts will come out the longer he plays. I've seen him play alot of games with Buffalo and he was shown the door for a reason.
also correct. teams study film. they pick up on tendencies. everyone knows jones. tyrod has barely played the last few years. IIRC, jones looked AMAZING his first game. then people picked up on it. this will happen with tyrod too. the oline finally decided to show up this week. they do that for jones... lets see what happens.
If Jones is not healthy, he should sit. You do not play around with neck injuries. Taylor is a competent QB who can run the offense. Neither one is franchise-worthy, but you have to protect your players at all costs. Even if they are looking to boot him after next year, you have to protect him from getting severely injured.
Its not that Jones cannot play faster or with more abandon
He chooses not to
Play TT
Jones will start if he is healthy no matter what. But there just isn't a significant difference between the two except for salary. So that's it.
Quote from: katkavage on October 16, 2023, 09:30:47 AMJones will start if he is healthy no matter what. But there just isn't a significant difference between the two except for salary. So that's it.
I think that's the point some are missing. Nobody thinks Tyrod is great. It's just that you get the same type of play out of both QBs.
Quote from: Messiah717 on October 16, 2023, 09:34:20 AMI think that's the point some are missing. Nobody thinks Tyrod is great. It's just that you get the same type of play out of both QBs.
Buy a Kia Optima for $10K or a Hyundai Sonata for $80K.
If Jones is healthy, he will play.
Quote from: Messiah717 on October 16, 2023, 09:34:20 AMI think that's the point some are missing. Nobody thinks Tyrod is great. It's just that you get the same type of play out of both QBs.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 09:36:08 AMBuy a Kia Optima for $10K or a Hyundai Sonata for $80K.
Bingo
It's about the money, the players are interchangeable at this point
My observations of TT were the following:
1) he felt the pressure better and mived around better than DJ.
2) TT's eyes were focused downfield. He wanted to make downfield plays. Much better that way than DJ.
3) Kafka rolled TT more which baffles me as I have been pleasing for him to do that with DJ.
4) TT threw some accurate passes that should have been caught but missed some easy throws.
Conclusion: play TT. He's more willing to seek out deeper throws.
Quote from: Philosophers on October 16, 2023, 11:52:13 AMMy observations of TT were the following:
1) he felt the pressure better and mived around better than DJ.
2) TT's eyes were focused downfield. He wanted to make downfield plays. Much better that way than DJ.
3) Kafka rolled TT more which baffles me as I have been pleasing for him to do that with DJ.
4) TT threw some accurate passes that should have been caught but missed some easy throws.
Conclusion: play TT. He's more willing to seek out deeper throws.
Good observations. I agree.
I am pretty sure they'll start Jones if/when he is healthy, but after last night they may be more circumspect about whether or not they want to keep him in if he's struggling badly (as he has done in multiple games this year).
Necks are no joke, I would sit him until its no longer a concern, a neck injury and be problematic outside of the game itself.
https://twitter.com/PLeonardNYDN/status/1713723123520999825?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
If healthy, Jones will start.
Daboll appears to not even consider this a serious question
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1713945068992704911?s=20
To answer the original post, IMO last night showed ONLY that Taylor is (at best) an average BACKUP quarterback. Bob
There has been much discussion around the duty of changing protections and just how much responsibility DJ has at the line of scrimmage.
I am now wondering if the OL play looked a little better because those adjustments were improved with TT in the game. Given that the line was even more patchwork last night, playing against good pass rushers, and still seem to have a better night, something changed.
Some of it I thought was the type of drops TT was taking. For example, on a 3rd and 7, TT took a 3 step drop. Von Miller was lined up over Neal. It looked like Neal whiffed on the block, but since Miller took an outside rush he took himself out of the play. Had that been a 7 step drop, Miller would have been there on the 7th step.
Did Neal whiff? Or did he know he didnt need to protect for a deep drop and positioned accordingly?
Was the better pass blocking mostly (or partially) that type of management of playcalling?
If it was, why wasn't this type of adjustment made weeks ago?
Is it a matter of what the coaches think DJ does well vs what TT does well?
I am really puzzled by what looked like better pass protection. To be clear I didnt thinking was good or great protection and TT's mobility made a big difference, but what I saw was better than what I was expecting against a team leading the league in sacks.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 16, 2023, 12:42:37 PMThere has been much discussion around the duty of changing protections and just how much responsibility DJ has at the line of scrimmage.
I am now wondering if the OL play looked a little better because those adjustments were improved with TT in the game. Given that the line was even more patchwork last night, playing against good pass rushers, and still seem to have a better night, something changed.
Some of it I thought was the type of drops TT was taking. For example, on a 3rd and 7, TT took a 3 step drop. Von Miller was lined up over Neal. It looked like Neal whiffed on the block, but since Miller took an outside rush he took himself out of the play. Had that been a 7 step drop, Miller would have been there on the 7th step.
Did Neal whiff? Or did he know he didnt need to protect for a deep drop and positioned accordingly?
Was the better pass blocking mostly (or partially) that type of management of playcalling?
If it was, why wasn't this type of adjustment made weeks ago?
Is it a matter of what the coaches think DJ does well vs what TT does well?
I am really puzzled by what looked like better pass protection. To be clear I didnt thinking was good or great protection and TT's mobility made a big difference, but what I saw was better than what I was expecting against a team leading the league in sacks.
uconn: Nicely done as usual.
Two points: Buffalo was down a lot of defenders, but even more importantly they had played in Europe last week.
In short, what we saw last evening IMO was the "easiest-to-beat" version of the Bills we will see all year (unless the QB gets hurt).
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 16, 2023, 12:55:49 PMuconn: Nicely done as usual.
Two points: Buffalo was down a lot of defenders, but even more importantly they had played in Europe last week.
In short, what we saw last evening IMO was the "easiest-to-beat" version of the Bills we will see all year (unless the QB gets hurt).
Bob
Bob,
I am sure the travel took its toll, but thought they would be very motivated after a thumping that might have playoff seeding implications
All I'm saying is this league changes quickly and a QB controversy can manifest itself overnight.
Quote from: Trench on October 16, 2023, 02:04:45 PMAll I'm saying is this league changes quickly and a QB controversy can manifest itself overnight.
In our situation, changing the QB does nothing for the success of the team. They will continue to lose while building for the future. Our 2025 starting QB is not on the roster yet.
It would be a controversy if Tyrod was slinging the ball up and down the field and the offense blew out the Bills by 30. Swapping Tyrod for Jones is the same as going from Kia to Hyundai.
Let's see, Tyrod has started one game with us and he's 0-1. He scored a grand total of 9 points and couldn't score from the 1 yard line at the end of both halves.
Yet we're sitting here talking about how he plays better than Jones at a cheaper price when the $$$ is already spent.
What am I missing here?!
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Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 02:13:55 PMIn our situation, changing the QB does nothing for the success of the team. They will continue to lose while building for the future. Our 2025 starting QB is not on the roster yet.
It would be a controversy if Tyrod was slinging the ball up and down the field and the offense blew out the Bills by 30. Swapping Tyrod for Jones is the same as going from Kia to Hyundai.
If Dallas loses tonight we can legitimately make a move and salvage our season (in my opinion). If Jones goes out and had another check down clunker u can bet there will be cries for a change.
Just my opinion
Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 16, 2023, 01:46:39 PMBob,
I am sure the travel took its toll, but thought they would be very motivated after a thumping that might have playoff seeding implications
uconn: So did I, 100 percent.
But, apparently, playing a team that can't score touchdowns isn't very motivating. LOL
Also, although I sincerely believe true desperation might be strong enough to override the effects of traveling back-and-forth to Europe, it appears that mere "motivation" alone is not.
Bob
If healthy Ild like to see if Jones could play a looser game. He had a front row seat watching Ty playing with nothing to loose, as such, simply trying to win.
I want to see if this lights a fire in Jones and he plays Less conservative, moves the ball downfield, etc
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 16, 2023, 12:35:29 PMTo answer the original post, IMO last night showed ONLY that Taylor is (at best) an average BACKUP quarterback. Bob
Huh I think the same thing about Jones. And he looked way worse than Tyrod.
I think it should be obvious who should start. The person who managed a competitive game against one of the best teams in the NFL when everyone was predicting him getting injured behind an o-line and like a 4 TD blow-out. Vegas had the Giants + 15 points. But also made the offense look functional for this first time since I cannot remember.
He not only looked to play good behind an o-line that had the worst line-up in the season by moving Pugh to Left T., -- which everyone was predicting was IMPOSSIBLE TO LOOK GOOD BEHIND-- but managed to almost win the game.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 16, 2023, 02:26:47 PMLet's see, Tyrod has started one game with us and he's 0-1. He scored a grand total of 9 points and couldn't score from the 1 yard line at the end of both halves.
Yet we're sitting here talking about how he plays better than Jones at a cheaper price when the $$$ is already spent.
What am I missing here?!
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Good one.
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Quote from: Woody on October 16, 2023, 04:50:23 PMGood one.
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Gee I don't know maybe that he is playing a team that is predicted to win the Super bowl this year, on the road and that he hasn't started a game in like 3 years. There's that. There is that the person who he's been backing up isn't exactly a TD machine in his own right. There is that. There is the fact that I didn't see constant 3 and outs and like no offense for the first time all season minus the second half of the Cardinals . IS THAT ANY CLEARER?
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 16, 2023, 02:26:47 PMLet's see, Tyrod has started one game with us and he's 0-1. He scored a grand total of 9 points and couldn't score from the 1 yard line at the end of both halves.
Yet we're sitting here talking about how he plays better than Jones at a cheaper price when the $$$ is already spent.
What am I missing here?!
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Over 300 yds offense, 10-19 on 3rd down, only 3 sacks, no turnovers
And oh yeah, they didn't score but he did get to the 1 twice, which Jones couldn't do even once against a good team
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Quote from: Uni on October 16, 2023, 05:55:12 PMOver 300 yds offense, 10-19 on 3rd down, only 3 sacks, no turnovers
And oh yeah, they didn't score but he did get to the 1 twice, which Jones couldn't do even once against a good team
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I think the 3 sacks is a number worth noting. Normally, I find there is a tendency for some fans to equate sacks as always the O line's fault and never the QB's fault. The reality is that that is not always the case. Some QBs are better at manipulating the pocket, anticipating the rush, and processing and getting rid of the ball faster than others. Taylor did a very nice job with all of the above last night. There were multiple folks here who said they thought he would not make it through the game without getting hurt behind the line in the state that it is presently in. Not only was that not the case, but he managed to only take three sacks behind the same O line that people claim makes things completely impossible for Jones. And this is a backup QB making chump change (by NFL QB standards) we're talking about here.
Start TT, rest Dimes. :ok:
I'm sure the Bills were expecting a total push over and had jones played is exactly what would have happened.
Tyrod Taylor scared the xxxx out of them. I'd like to see more from this QB and what he can do with these guys like Pugh and the rest of the o-line and Waller ; wen del; and WR rookie and Slayton.
https://x.com/marcus3255/status/1713769773920559393?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ