First, the immediate sense I got watching the Giants last night was that Tyrod seemed more relaxed and functional in the Giants' offense. I was wondering if the offense would have done as well with Daniel Jones behind center.
Still, over the past few years, we have seen many fans create a standard that the Giants' QB needs to be held. To that end:
Taylor only threw for 200 yards
The Taylor led offense failed to score a TD with 5 trips into the red zone including 2 snaps at the one yard line
Taylor cost the Giants 3 - 7 points by switching a pass play to run and allowing the clock to expire at the 1-yard line at the end of the second half.
The Giants were only able to score 9 points against an injury-depleted Bills defense even with Barkley adding 93 rushing yards
Taylor also enjoyed the advantage of playing with a lead (first time this season)
So I am torn between former Pro Bowler Tyrod Taylor not looking that bad and perhaps better than Jones on the field and the way we have been conditioned to evaluate Daniel Jones which suggests Taylor had a very poor night.
I really don't know what to make of things.
We could have witnessed evidence that Jones is shot (although it's possible Jones could regain his poise, but that doesn't happen often)
We could have just seen flash with no substance since production was no better with Taylor than with Jones
It's possible that hearing so much negative toward Jones (as illustrated in this thread) maybe things would have gone better with Jones. Maybe Jones doesn't check to a run, or they score a TD in one of the 5 trips to the red zone, and the Giants win.
Frankly, I am not sure what the answer is based on the information available.
I guess the silver lining in all of this is that the Giants season may be effectively over, but things certainly will remain interesting.
Let's keep in mind the majority of Saquon's yards came on two carries in the 4th quarter. Other than those two carries he was ineffective last night with 40 yards on 22 carries. Considering Buffalo's run defense hasn't been that great, they did what they had to do to shut down Barkley. Not sure how much of that was on Barkley's ankle.
Taylor did much better at managing the game than I would've expected Jones to do. If Jones is back there I think the Buffalo pass rush would've been more effective and the game would've looked a lot different.
Having said that, Taylor is not the answer for this team. He's just a cheap bridge for a franchise in need of an answer at QB.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 16, 2023, 09:33:57 AMLet's keep in mind the majority of Saquon's yards came on two carries in the 4th quarter. Other than those two carries he was ineffective last night with 40 yards on 22 carries. Considering Buffalo's run defense hasn't been that great, they did what they had to do to shut down Barkley. Not sure how much of that was on Barkley's ankle.
Taylor did much better at managing the game than I would've expected Jones to do. If Jones is back there I think the Buffalo pass rush would've been more effective and the game would've looked a lot different.
Having said that, Taylor is not the answer for this team. He's just a cheap bridge for a franchise in need of an answer at QB.
Those two long runs gave the Giants a FG or a third of the Giants points last night
They are interchangeable pretty much. The Giants need to somehow find a top tier QB. They just don't have one on their roster now.
There were a bunch of sideline fades that I can't remember Jones completing. Those were passes that Taylor dropped in the bucket with limited separation. Those are throws Jones doesn't even attempt.
IMO, Jones would have been sacked at least 8 times if he played last night.
Quote from: katkavage on October 16, 2023, 09:46:54 AMThey are interchangeable pretty much. The Giants need to somehow find a top tier QB. They just don't have one on their roster now.
That's my takeaway we well. At least with Tyrod we don't have to hear about how all the players around him failed him.
Tyrod Taylor proved that when the pocket collapses he could still step up and find space and give himself time to look downfield and attempt to make a play instead of feeling pressure and rolling out of the pocket to the right sideline, losing half the field. He also didn't make any critical passing mistakes that changed the momentum of the game. The Giants had two starters on their Oline last night and had a backup LT leave the game which forced Pugh there with no preparation. He also got rid of the ball faster and sometimes QB's create their own pressure as Jones often does.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 16, 2023, 09:50:08 AMTyrod Taylor proved that when the pocket collapses he could still step up and find space and give himself time to look downfield and make attempt to make a play instead of feeling pressure and rolling out of the pocket to the right sideline, losing half the field. He also didn't make any critical passing mistakes that changed the momentum of the game. The Giants had two starters on their Oline last night and had a backup LT leave the game which forced Pugh there with no preparation. He also got rid of the ball faster and sometimes QB's create their own pressure as Jones often does.
Jones will have the opportunity to play behind the Pugh line next week against Washington. We will compare apples to apples.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 09:54:31 AMJones will have the opportunity to play behind the Pugh line next week against Washington. We will compare apples to apples.
I can't agree with the bold part. One is a home game against a defense that is third worst in the league in points allowed per game. The other was a road game against a defense that is third best in the league in points allowed per game.
If we're looking at these two QBs in isolation of these two games, an adjustment has to be made in the analysis to account for the wide gap in caliber of these two defenses.
https://x.com/clt_ny/status/1713910069153153045?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 09:58:15 AMI can't agree with the bold part. One is a home game against a defense that is third worst in the league in points allowed per game. The other was a road game against a defense that is third best in the league in points allowed per game.
If we're looking at these two QBs in isolation of these two games, an adjustment has to be made in the analysis to account for the wide gap in caliber of these two defenses.
Good point about the disparity in the quality of the defenses and the venues.
I was focused on seeing both of them play behind the same offensive line personnel to eliminate the "yeah, but..." responses. Probably an exercise in futility anyway. :doh:
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 09:15:23 AMFirst, the immediate sense I got watching the Giants last night was that Tyrod seemed more relaxed and functional in the Giants' offense. I was wondering if the offense would have done as well with Daniel Jones behind center.
Still, over the past few years, we have seen many fans create a standard that the Giants' QB needs to be held. To that end:
Taylor only threw for 200 yards
The Taylor led offense failed to score a TD with 5 trips into the red zone including 2 snaps at the one yard line
Taylor cost the Giants 3 - 7 points by switching a pass play to run and allowing the clock to expire at the 1-yard line at the end of the second half.
The Giants were only able to score 9 points against an injury-depleted Bills defense even with Barkley adding 93 rushing yards
Taylor also enjoyed the advantage of playing with a lead (first time this season)
So I am torn between former Pro Bowler Tyrod Taylor not looking that bad and perhaps better than Jones on the field and the way we have been conditioned to evaluate Daniel Jones which suggests Taylor had a very poor night.
I really don't know what to make of things.
We could have witnessed evidence that Jones is shot (although it's possible Jones could regain his poise, but that doesn't happen often)
We could have just seen flash with no substance since production was no better with Taylor than with Jones
It's possible that hearing so much negative toward Jones (as illustrated in this thread) maybe things would have gone better with Jones. Maybe Jones doesn't check to a run, or they score a TD in one of the 5 trips to the red zone, and the Giants win.
Frankly, I am not sure what the answer is based on the information available.
I guess the silver lining in all of this is that the Giants season may be effectively over, but things certainly will remain interesting.
I think you answered your own question though. If you can't decide if Jones is objectively better than a 35 year old journeyman QB who has never in his life demonstrated the ability to deserve a long term big money contract, then that's kind of a problem for Jones. We should have been able to come out of that game knowing for sure that nobody could function in those circumstances and that it wasn't Jones' fault that he's look God awful this season. However, Taylor stepped in and I would say his actual football playing seemed to be an improvement.
Now, he did have one of the absolute dumbest decisions in recent memory also thrown in there at the end of the half. So it wasn't all roses for him either. I don't think Jones checks out of that pass, at least I hope not, but I also don't know if the coaches have been trusting him enough to even give him the option to check out of plays at all. I don't recall many instances at all of him doing that the past couple seasons.
So for me, I think if you sub Jones in for that specific play with 14 seconds left in the half, and Taylor plays the rest of the game the Giants win. But if you play Jones the entire game...I'm not so sure. Taylor showed touch and accuracy that we haven't seen from Jones this season and perhaps more importantly a willingness to throw the ball past 5 yards downfield.
The Giants were severely out-manned last night. They had no business being even in that game let alone in position to win it. Taylor didn't play great, but he played good enough for the team to win. Jones hasn't really done a lot of that this season.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 16, 2023, 09:58:15 AMI can't agree with the bold part. One is a home game against a defense that is third worst in the league in points allowed per game. The other was a road game against a defense that is third best in the league in points allowed per game.
If we're looking at these two QBs in isolation of these two games, an adjustment has to be made in the analysis to account for the wide gap in caliber of these two defenses.
While this has some merit for sure, if that is the case, if Washington suddenly starts getting after Jones again like recent weeks, it will still provide some valuable insights as DJ should have plenty of time to throw based on the defensive drop off
Factually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
The team was more confident with Taylor and he got rid of the ball faster. Attempts and make plays Jones doesn't. He doesn't score a ton of points but this was the ONLY game against a good team we were competitive .
Taylor is not the answer but he is much better in my opinion running the offense. Jones contract will go down as one of the worst ever
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:30:39 AMFactually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
Taylor produced like a backup QB. It's to be expected. He's also paid commensurate to his production.
Jones's production to this point is on par with Taylor's (a backup QB). His pay is significantly higher.
More importantly, that extra money spent on Jones could have been invested in the offensive line, which we all universally agree is historically horrendous.
Quote from: T200 on October 16, 2023, 10:46:28 AMTaylor produced like a backup QB. It's to be expected. He's also paid commensurate to his production.
Jones's production to this point is on par with Taylor's (a backup QB). His pay is significantly higher.
More importantly, that extra money spent on Jones could have been invested in the offensive line, which we all universally agree is historically horrendous.
Is the bar for backup QBs to produce only 6 points (Barkley accounted for the other 3 with his two long runs, as discussed earlier) against a depleted Bills defense?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:30:39 AMFactually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
How is it factual? Based on what?
They are equal, interchangeable players, however one comes $35 Million cheaper
A Tyrod Taylor offense, with no DJ contract, allows them to add a RG, and replace the depth guys like Lemiuex, Peart etc, and maybe a little bit on defense or WR as well.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:49:34 AMIs the bar for backup QBs to produce only 6 points (Barkley accounted for the other 3 with his two long runs, as discussed earlier) against a depleted Bills defense?
if DJ played you would not have discredited those 3 points.
Anyway, 6 points is double what DJ scored against Dallas and Seattle combined. So maybe the bar is set there?
Quote from: True Blue on October 16, 2023, 10:50:08 AMHow is it factual? Based on what?
They are equal, interchangeable players, however one comes $35 Million cheaper
A Tyrod Taylor offense, with no DJ contract, allows them to add a RG, and replace the depth guys like Lemiuex, Peart etc, and maybe a little bit on defense or WR as well.
Yards, points, and red zone production
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:49:34 AMIs the bar for backup QBs to produce only 6 points (Barkley accounted for the other 3 with his two long runs, as discussed earlier) against a depleted Bills defense?
Don't take those 3 points away from Taylor. He was still the QB and directed the offense the entire game.
The bar is set for Taylor because he only had the opportunity to play one game.
From a production standpoint, in 5 games, Jones has done no better or no worse.
Point being, we could have exactly what we have now with 40 million to spend on other positions, specifically along the offensive line.
A backup QB plays just as bad/well as the starter Jones is a bad thing. Goes to show Jones is not it.
Quote from: True Blue on October 16, 2023, 10:51:04 AMif DJ played you would not have discredited those 3 points.
Anyway, 6 points is double what DJ scored against Dallas and Seattle combined. So maybe the bar is set there?
Lol. Sometimes you just have to laugh at the inaneness of it all.
Quote from: True Blue on October 16, 2023, 10:51:04 AMif DJ played you would not have discredited those 3 points.
Anyway, 6 points is double what DJ scored against Dallas and Seattle combined. So maybe the bar is set there?
Why pick those two games?
Jones is a "dead man walking" as a Giant QB. Unfortunately his "appeal" process will last through next season. I really do believe the conversation between Mara and Schoen/Dabol this past off-season went something like this. Mara "we really screwed up this kid. let's compensate him. Schoen/Dabol "grumble, rumble, grumble. You're the boss. BUT we won't be saddled with Gettlemen's folly. Two year out built in. Complain about the play calling all you want. However a QB is called a Field General for a reason. Dabol rightfully expects his QB to make the right calls, and see what he sees on the field. Hence his discussion with Taylor after the half, and his Surface toss with Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 11:22:57 AMWhy pick those two games?
Why discredit a third of the offensive points on a drive the QB led?
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:30:39 AMFactually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
I don't get the Taylor played better argument. They scored 9 points. They were 0 for 5 in the red zone, something that had been a real strength, last year. He made a completely unacceptable rookie error at the end of the half to cost points. They could have had 2-3 pass attempts into the end zone rather than checking into a half-ending run. A rookie would be embarrassed to make that play, let alone a 35 year old veteran. He was horrific.
I'm telling you all we are in a time warp back to arguing about whether Kent Graham is actually better than Danny Kanell (he was/is). And the Danny Kanell dead enders refuse to give an inch of ground. They would rather see the franchise remain where it is than to accept that Kanell stinks.
Difference being Kanell 2.0 is making 40 million which is a joke.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on October 16, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI don't get the Taylor played better argument. They scored 9 points. They were 0 for 5 in the red zone, something that had been a real strength, last year. He made a completely unacceptable rookie error at the end of the half to cost points. They could have had 2-3 pass attempts into the end zone rather than checking into a half-ending run. A rookie would be embarrassed to make that play, let alone a 35 year old veteran. He was horrific.
I think the general observation people have made was not really that he was "better", but more that he was about the same, give or take. He was neither materially better nor materially worse than Jones has been this year, despite being less than 1/7th of the cost.
And if one game is not a relevant sample (which is a perfectly reasonable pushback point), consider their total careers. Taylor has a visibly higher passer rating, a visibly higher YPA, and a much better career record despite playing on bad teams for the majority of his career. I can't find career QBRs, but looking at each player's seasonal QBRs over the courses of their career, Taylor's appears to be clearly better.
In short, there is just no evidence that Jones is materially better either over a large sample or just by watching last night's game and comparing it to what Jones has done this season. They seem similar in caliber. Jones just costs much, much more.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that neither is the long-term answer for our club.
Bit of a "no xxxx Sherlock" statement on some levels but whether we screwed Jones up or he was never "the one", I think his long term ship has sailed.
I'd say that, in the short term, Taylor is a better option for two reasons.
1) He's shiftier behind a collapsing line, moving more effectively east to west;
2) His experience stands him in better stead for the type of crisis management situations we'll encounter weekly.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on October 16, 2023, 11:26:09 AMI don't get the Taylor played better argument. They scored 9 points. They were 0 for 5 in the red zone, something that had been a real strength, last year. He made a completely unacceptable rookie error at the end of the half to cost points. They could have had 2-3 pass attempts into the end zone rather than checking into a half-ending run. A rookie would be embarrassed to make that play, let alone a 35 year old veteran. He was horrific.
T2 didn't just cost points, he cost the team the game
Bottom line, gentlemen, no QB could possibly be expected to function at all behind this horrifically bad OL. Not Daniel Jones. Not Pat Mahomes. Not anyone!!!
Except for Tyrod Taylor. Tyrod definitely should have done more behind this OL. And that's why I think Daniel Jones is a franchise QB. Or at least that's why I think we can't properly evaluate Daniel until he has a proper OL and a better OC.
Quote from: True Blue on October 16, 2023, 11:25:20 AMWhy discredit a third of the offensive points on a drive the QB led?
Because the ball was moved to FG range on two long runs by Barkley. Was there something special in the way Tyrod handed Barkley the ball that you credit him? Now that I answered your question, how about answering mine?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 16, 2023, 11:51:38 AMBottom line, gentlemen, no QB could possibly be expected to function at all behind this horrifically bad OL. Not Daniel Jones. Not Pat Mahomes. Not anyone!!!
Except for Tyrod Taylor. Tyrod definitely should have done more behind this OL. And that's why I think Daniel Jones is a franchise QB. Or at least that's why I think we can't properly evaluate Daniel until he has a proper OL and a better OC.
Let's turn that around. How does Tyrod Taylor putting up 6 (or 9 points if you count Barkley's long runs as T2's accomplishments) in one game prove Daniel Jones is bad?
Daniel Jones' play on the field is what demonstrates he's a bad player. It has nothing to do with Taylor.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 11:54:39 AMLet's turn that around. How does Tyrod Taylor putting up 6 (or 9 points if you count Barkley's long runs as T2's accomplishments) in one game prove Daniel Jones is bad?
It doesn't. Jones isn't bad. He's just average at best. TT is a back up QB for a reason. Last night TT made a bad call that maybe cost them the game on the road against a prominent team. A couple of weeks ago DJ threw a pick six that probably cost them the game against a decent team. Both Giant QBs have flaws. Both are average at best. As a fan, I want to see better than average from my QB.
As for this topic in general, IMO all we can say is Taylor played well enough to be the Giants' backup QB. Bob
At this point I want TT because he seems more comfortable in a collapsing pocket and can move better and is looking downfield. At least with those attributes we have a shot to make a downfield play and score.
OL needs a rebuild. LG, RG and RT. Bring at least 1 high priced top tier free agent but ideally 2 for leadership and draft the third. As importantly, establish the five starters in May and let them build cohesiveness early and throughout camp. Please no more experimenting with different combos. Settle on one early.
Perhaps, we can only see what we want to see in terms of little picture/ big picture. Whatever, I might choose to conclude from a comparison of Taylor and Jones, it does nothing but reaffirm what by now should be obvious to everyone. No, I'm not talking about the terrible officiating that stole the game from Our Heroes who otherwise did whatever else they could on Offense to lose it.
I'm talking about playing Quarterback, or indeed any of the so called skill positions as an essentially vacant exercise behind what has been and remains a non-functional Oline. Simply put, the Giants have had no Offense in 23 of 24 Quarters played thus far.
If we subtract DJ's and the Giants now inexplicable 31 point, 2nd Half comeback to beat the Cardinals- the biggest of such in more than 70 years- from their current lowest in League 71 points, we see that they have managed to score a mere 40 points in the other 5 games, all losses. Not even DaBears or the 0-6 Carolina Panthers Offenses have been quite so futile.
No matter how many little pictures we choose to paint, there is one huge blank canvas in front of us all. It is named Daniel Jones, who following his "career year" and leading the Giants to their first Playoff win in 11 years, is currently guaranteed to be paid $85 million- "Guaranteed" plus another $35 million in mostly easy to achieve incentives from his $160 million deal through 2026.
Thus, Daniel Jones, barring disability, and given his actual and live and dead cap cost will be the Giants starting QB through next year and most likely 2025 if not longer. So why has the canvas become blank, and why is it a dilemma? Because with the League's worst Oline, effectively no Oline, the paint box is empty, and there is no way for the Giants brain trust to begin to estimate the return on its investment or to plan beyond a stopgap.
We can blab all we want as I have just done but unless and until the single and by far the most important question, which involves one name only, will go unanswered.
Cheers!
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 11:50:11 AMT2 didn't just cost points, he cost the team the game
I wouldn't go that far because you can't really assume those points wouldn't have changed the second half.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 11:52:26 AMBecause the ball was moved to FG range on two long runs by Barkley. Was there something special in the way Tyrod handed Barkley the ball that you credit him? Now that I answered your question, how about answering mine?
Maybe those 2 long runs came on check downs /sarcasm/
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 16, 2023, 11:34:32 AMI'm telling you all we are in a time warp back to arguing about whether Kent Graham is actually better than Danny Kanell (he was/is). And the Danny Kanell dead enders refuse to give an inch of ground. They would rather see the franchise remain where it is than to accept that Kanell stinks.
Difference being Kanell 2.0 is making 40 million which is a joke.
That is not the memory and at my age it's not what I remember. Now, I thought that Graham was a better player. In his last year where he defeated the eventual SB champs Denver, he was replaced by Kerry Collins the following year.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:30:39 AMFactually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
Amani Toomer said otherwise. I trust him as an expert.
I wish I could post the clip for everyone to hear.
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 16, 2023, 12:33:00 PMAs for this topic in general, IMO all we can say is Taylor played well enough to be the Giants' backup QB. Bob
If he played better than Jones (which many believed he did) then he should be given a chance again
Quote from: beaugestus on October 16, 2023, 01:42:37 PMThat is not the memory and at my age it's not what I remember. Now, I thought that Graham was a better player. In his last year where he defeated the eventual SB champs Denver, he was replaced by Kerry Collins the following year.
Collins > Graham
Graham > Kanell
Kanell > Brown
Every QB change Fassell made from 97-99 was the correct one.
Quote from: Trench on October 16, 2023, 01:45:35 PMIf he played better than Jones (which many believed he did) then he should be given a chance again
Trench: It doesn't matter what many believe.
It matters what the coaches believe (and the owner, who pays the bills).
However, I do agree he played well enough to do his job, which is the job of NFL backup quarterback.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 16, 2023, 10:30:39 AMFactually speaking Taylor produced no better (and some might argue a bit worse) than Jones. What's more important production or how they look producing?
The most important aspects of the game that translate toward increasing the probability to obtain a win
Ability to read the defense
Ability to adjust coverage and audible
Ability to quickly scan field
Ability to take reasonable calculated risks down field with accuracy
Lability to
Make those around you better, (getting Hyatt and a Layton involved was huge)
Those skills translate week to week
In that regard in those aspects, except end of the 1st 2/2 Tyrod did better than 2023/24 version of Jones
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 16, 2023, 02:59:07 PMTrench: It doesn't matter what many believe.
It matters what the coaches believe (and the owner, who pays the bills).
However, I do agree he played well enough to do his job, which is the job of NFL backup quarterback.
Bob
I agree mostly.
Where we disagree is I do believe he played very well because it was against a top 5 defense with a makeshift oline. He gets the ball out quicker than Jones and can process faster (and he hasn't had many reps this year). Toomer agrees with this assessment so in my opinion we may very well have a controversy brewing. Daboll needs to win games - not worry about honoring Jones with starting due to his being paid to start. He needs to show he is competent and I think that could mean he has Jones take a seat on the bench at some point.
Time will tell though.
Am I right to say for the first time this season it felt like the Giants had a chance to win for four straight quarters? I only had that feeling for a quarter against Arizona.
Going into the game with the state of the OL they really blew our expectations out of the water.
So in searching for why that was, we had the most observable difference, a new QB. It seems we've been talking more about the QB position then any other on this board by a long shot.
Can we conclude that Taylor was the reason that was a winnable game despite it being one of the highest probably losing game this season as the announcers pointed out ahead of the game? Well that's where the discussion is heading next.
I think Taylor gave them a better chance to win over expectations because of how well they ate up the clock in the first half, not turning the ball over and letting the defense shine. Ceri mention this type of style in another thread. The team went back to trying to eat up clock to keep the overall game score down and giving the team a chance late in the game. Jones or the offensive game plan moved away from that style this season, Waller being evident. Sunday's change in QB and OL situation made them move back towards it. It was fun to watch and I hope they can stick with it going forward this season with either Jones or Taylor. Right now though I'd stick with Taylor until Jones is completely pain free.
Quote from: UncannyGfan on October 17, 2023, 09:40:11 AMAm I right to say for the first time this season it felt like the Giants had a chance to win for four straight quarters? I only had that feeling for a quarter against Arizona.
Going into the game with the state of the OL they really blew our expectations out of the water.
So in searching for why that was, we had the most observable difference, a new QB. It seems we've been talking more about the QB position then any other on this board by a long shot.
Can we conclude that Taylor was the reason that was a winnable game despite it being one of the highest probably losing game this season as the announcers pointed out ahead of the game? Well that's where the discussion is heading next.
I think Taylor gave them a better chance to win over expectations because of how well they ate up the clock in the first half, not turning the ball over and letting the defense shine. Ceri mention this type of style in another thread. The team went back to trying to eat up clock to keep the overall game score down and giving the team a chance late in the game. Jones or the offensive game plan moved away from that style this season, Waller being evident. Sunday's change in QB and OL situation made them move back towards it. It was fun to watch and I hope they can stick with it going forward this season with either Jones or Taylor. Right now though I'd stick with Taylor until Jones is completely pain free.
I tend to agree with that for the most part but hard to ignore the idiotic audible at the end of the half that absolutely cost the Giants points and likely cost them the game. That's why it's a little bit of a closer discussion.
As far as play on the field outside of that I do think Taylor was better able to deal with the pressure, make smarter decisions on where to throw, and showed a willingness to at least attempt down field passes where Jones has not. So I would say he probably does give them the best chance to win games right now, but I also am not sure winning games is in the best interest of the team anyway.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 17, 2023, 09:58:55 AMI tend to agree with that for the most part but hard to ignore the idiotic audible at the end of the half that absolutely cost the Giants points and likely cost them the game. That's why it's a little bit of a closer discussion.
As far as play on the field outside of that I do think Taylor was better able to deal with the pressure, make smarter decisions on where to throw, and showed a willingness to at least attempt down field passes where Jones has not. So I would say he probably does give them the best chance to win games right now, but I also am not sure winning games is in the best interest of the team anyway.
I don't excuse the change because he's a veteran but I also understand it's been a while since he's had live, meaningful playing time. It's not the norm for him.
Quote from: T200 on October 17, 2023, 10:30:14 AMI don't excuse the change because he's a veteran but I also understand it's been a while since he's had live, meaningful playing time. It's not the norm for him.
I wonder if Taylor over learned the Seattle Superbowl loss lesson. They were so close to the end zone in a big formation with Barkley right behind him. I wonder what he saw in the defense that keyed him to audible? End of half vs end of a game is a totally different situation but he was going for the win right there which came back to haunt them later.
The Bills missed an easy FG which if made puts all of this as being moot. If the Giants won, that missed FG would be the talk of the town. I'm sure.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 17, 2023, 12:33:15 PMThe Bills missed an easy FG which if made puts all of this as being moot. If the Giants won, that missed FG would be the talk of the town. I'm sure.
Very true.
Fans (myself included for sure) have been avoiding this point, and it's a very fair one.
Quote from: UncannyGfan on October 17, 2023, 09:40:11 AMAm I right to say for the first time this season it felt like the Giants had a chance to win for four straight quarters? I only had that feeling for a quarter against Arizona.
Going into the game with the state of the OL they really blew our expectations out of the water.
So in searching for why that was, we had the most observable difference, a new QB. It seems we've been talking more about the QB position then any other on this board by a long shot.
Can we conclude that Taylor was the reason that was a winnable game despite it being one of the highest probably losing game this season as the announcers pointed out ahead of the game? Well that's where the discussion is heading next.
I think Taylor gave them a better chance to win over expectations because of how well they ate up the clock in the first half, not turning the ball over and letting the defense shine. Ceri mention this type of style in another thread. The team went back to trying to eat up clock to keep the overall game score down and giving the team a chance late in the game. Jones or the offensive game plan moved away from that style this season, Waller being evident. Sunday's change in QB and OL situation made them move back towards it. It was fun to watch and I hope they can stick with it going forward this season with either Jones or Taylor. Right now though I'd stick with Taylor until Jones is completely pain free.
The sole reason we almost won that game was the defense was lights out. It's pretty obvious.
Had nothing to do with TT, who couldn't muster a single TD drive. He had more to do with us losing the game then he did in almost winning it.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 16, 2023, 09:49:34 AMThat's my takeaway we well. At least with Tyrod we don't have to hear about how all the players around him failed him.
Well..they didnt. the oline probably played their best game of the season.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 17, 2023, 12:49:17 PMWell..they didnt. the oline probably played their best game of the season.
Or maybe the QB was more adept at pocket manipulation, rush awareness, and processing speed/effectiveness. He also took more shots downfield which impacts what kind of looks you get from the defense.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 17, 2023, 12:53:00 PMOr maybe the QB was more adept at pocket manipulation, rush awareness, and processing speed/effectiveness. He also took more shots downfield which impacts what kind of looks you get from the defense.
I could not agree more, when he took over last week for the time he was in, it did seem like Tyrod was under less pressure and duress in that portion of the game also. He had some pressure, but did not seem as frequent.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 12:45:20 PMThe sole reason we almost won that game was the defense was lights out. It's pretty obvious.
Had nothing to do with TT, who couldn't muster a single TD drive. He had more to do with us losing the game then he did in almost winning it.
Would the defense have played as well if they had to play more snaps? The offense play calling was very conservative, had no turnovers, and no unblocked pass rushers hitting the QB before he could see them coming (was OL just better or was it Taylor's influence on calls at the line and his own pocket skills?).
Would the Giants have made this game plan for Jones and would Jones execute it more efficiently?
To the former, there is no evidence this season they would have tried this plan with him.
To the latter, I think this is another thread of the QB discussion we've discussed all year. I think the Jones of last season would have executed it better than Taylor. The Jones of this season after five games, I don't he would have. The play that comes to mind was Taylor's throw the blitzing side or when Barkley went out for reception instead of blocking when recognizing the situation. Jones regressed in handling those situations this year.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 17, 2023, 12:53:00 PMOr maybe the QB was more adept at pocket manipulation, rush awareness, and processing speed/effectiveness. He also took more shots downfield which impacts what kind of looks you get from the defense.
does that affect the linemans score though? if they get beat they get beat. the scores show they played much better this week.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 17, 2023, 01:36:09 PMdoes that affect the linemans score though? if they get beat they get beat. the scores show they played much better this week.
I think there is nuance to that point. "Getting beat" can happen when a lineman does a solid job blocking but eventually the pocket collapses. A QB who gets through his progressions faster and releases the ball more quickly is going to help his O linemen's scores, all things equal, because once the ball has come out, "getting beat" no longer applies.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 17, 2023, 12:53:00 PMOr maybe the QB was more adept at pocket manipulation, rush awareness, and processing speed/effectiveness. He also took more shots downfield which impacts what kind of looks you get from the defense.
All true. In addition,there is some PFF data floating around out there that suggests this week's pressure percentage was similar to the first 5 weeks but Tyrod's pressure to sack percentage was about half that of Daniel Jones.
Hello BBH. It's been a while since I last posted. Let's not forget that Taylor has a lot more experience than Jones too. Plus I think the broadcast said he played for six different teams. So you would think he would pick up a few things in his time in the league. So naturally he would look better than Jones. But they still didn't score any touchdowns.
Quote from: McGIANTS on October 17, 2023, 02:26:36 PMHello BBH. It's been a while since I last posted. Let's not forget that Taylor has a lot more experience than Jones too. Plus I think the broadcast said he played for six different teams. So you would think he would pick up a few things in his time in the league. So naturally he would look better than Jones. But they still didn't score any touchdowns.
Welcome back. Unfortunately the Giants paid Daniel Jones to be the leader this team needs. He hasn't gotten it done and it's not clear he's any better than the journeyman Tyrod Taylor. This is what they call QB hell.
Quote from: McGIANTS on October 17, 2023, 02:26:36 PMSo naturally he would look better than Jones.
So you think it has been obvious this whole time that Taylor is better than Jones? If that's the case, why play your inferior QB all year? And why pay him 7.2x as much per year as the better QB? Why not just roll with the better QB at $5.5mm per instead of $40mm per and then spend the difference on other talent?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on October 17, 2023, 02:42:55 PMWelcome back. Unfortunately the Giants paid Daniel Jones to be the leader this team needs. He hasn't gotten it done and it's not clear he's any better than the journeyman Tyrod Taylor. This is what they call QB hell.
Doc: I ordinarily object to the less-than-flattering posts about Jones, but not this one.
I agree Jones doesn't show what I hoped for (like what I see from most current top-flight NFL QB's).
The only possible response is that there are multiple ways of leading, including obvious ones like "by example" and "by cheer-leading" etc.
The Eli Manning "strong-silent-type" thing is difficult to pull off (and possibly too subtle for your average NFL player to identify with). If that is also Jones' approach, fans probably won't see it due to lack of access to the locker-room and other off-field moments.
Still, I find it disconcerting that Jones somehow never gives the impression he BELONGS on the field with the rest of the guys, not because he fails to jump around like an idiot (as do most) but because there's something awkward or clumsy or out-of-the-ordinary out his body language that simply does not inspire confidence.
Bob
PS. I'm trying to make a point not easily made. Hope I haven't been too far "out there" with this attempt.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 12:45:20 PMThe sole reason we almost won that game was the defense was lights out. It's pretty obvious.
Had nothing to do with TT, who couldn't muster a single TD drive. He had more to do with us losing the game then he did in almost winning it.
BS!...Taylor moved the ball and made SEVERAL 1st down plays!...how many did we have when the other guy was at QB?
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 17, 2023, 02:56:31 PMDoc: I ordinarily object to the less-than-flattering posts about Jones, but not this one.
I agree Jones doesn't show what I hoped for (like what I see from most current top-flight NFL QB's).
The only possible response is that there are multiple ways of leading, including obvious ones like "by example" and "by cheer-leading" etc.
The Eli Manning "strong-silent-type" thing is difficult to pull off (and possibly too subtle for your average NFL player to identify with). If that is also Jones' approach, fans probably won't see it due to lack of access to the locker-room and other off-field moments.
Still, I find it disconcerting that Jones somehow never gives the impression he BELONGS on the field with the rest of the guys, not because he fails to jump around like an idiot (as do most) but because there's something awkward or clumsy or out-of-the-ordinary out his body language that simply does not inspire confidence.
Bob
PS. I'm trying to make a point not easily made. Hope I haven't been too far "out there" with this attempt.
Are you saying Jones is... comical out there?
Jones was exposed
- slow reactions
- slow release
- scared to throw 50/50 balls downfield
- does not go through the possibilities, birddogs the receiver- usually a dump off
Quote from: Bob In PA on October 17, 2023, 02:56:31 PMI agree Jones doesn't show what I hoped for (like what I see from most current top-flight NFL QB's).
I think I see where you're going with this thought. I guess the question for you (and Mara, Schoen, Daboll, etc) is to what degree it's affecting or not affecting the team, and whether you expect to see progress over the rest of the season and into next season.
Quote from: Trench on October 17, 2023, 03:52:39 PMBS!...Taylor moved the ball and made SEVERAL 1st down plays!...how many did we have when the other guy was at QB?
I know all you want to do is disparage DJ in every post possible, but this has absolutely nothing to do with him.
It's a pretty weak argument to say a QB "made several first downs" during a game he led the offense to 0 TDs. Which, again, makes it pretty clear that the defense had everything to do with that game being close.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 04:30:56 PMI know all you want to do is disparage DJ in every post possible, but this has absolutely nothing to do with him.
It's a pretty weak argument to say a QB "made several first downs" during a game he led the offense to 0 TDs. Which, again, makes it pretty clear that the defense had everything to do with that game being close.
It's not a disparage. It is a fact from the game. If you go read my posts I have always supported Jones being out QB (but when he doesn't hit the mark I call it out)
Quote from: UncannyGfan on October 17, 2023, 01:21:52 PMWould the defense have played as well if they had to play more snaps? The offense play calling was very conservative, had no turnovers, and no unblocked pass rushers hitting the QB before he could see them coming (was OL just better or was it Taylor's influence on calls at the line and his own pocket skills?).
Would the Giants have made this game plan for Jones and would Jones execute it more efficiently?
To the former, there is no evidence this season they would have tried this plan with him.
To the latter, I think this is another thread of the QB discussion we've discussed all year. I think the Jones of last season would have executed it better than Taylor. The Jones of this season after five games, I don't he would have. The play that comes to mind was Taylor's throw the blitzing side or when Barkley went out for reception instead of blocking when recognizing the situation. Jones regressed in handling those situations this year.
WAY too many "ifs" and unknowns for me to even comment.
I think it's a leap to attribute improved OL play on a QB' calls. And I also think that, while TT did move well in the pocket, the data doesn't support that as being the difference between his performance and Jones'. There were several games with DJ starting that the data shows he faces pressure in 2 seconds or less. Had TT faced that same level of pressure, his pocket presence would not have made any difference.
There have definitely been recognition issues on DJ's part this season, but I do think you're onto something re: the gameplan and playcalling being different. Would be interesting to see what would happen with the same plan and DJ under center.
Quote from: Trench on October 17, 2023, 04:37:11 PMIt's not a disparage. It is a fact from the game. If you go read my posts I have always supported Jones being out QB (but when he doesn't hit the mark I call it out)
The topic was the defense and TT, but you just couldn't help yourself in making it about DJ. It's so transparent and tiresome.
DJ didn't play in the game. Let's actually talk about those who did instead of beating a dead horse.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 04:43:16 PMThe topic was the defense and TT, but you just couldn't help yourself in making it about DJ. It's so transparent and tiresome.
DJ didn't play in the game. Let's actually talk about those who did instead of beating a dead horse.
Nope. If we are talking Tyrod then Jones is in the discussion.
The VERY FIRST post of this thread mentions Jones and Tyrod so please don't try to make this about something it is not.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 04:30:56 PMI know all you want to do is disparage DJ in every post possible, but this has absolutely nothing to do with him.
It's a pretty weak argument to say a QB "made several first downs" during a game he led the offense to 0 TDs. Which, again, makes it pretty clear that the defense had everything to do with that game being close.
Suddenly when it does not apply to DJ touchdowns are relevant again?
Then I go back to the fact 15 TDS, hell add the 7 rushing make it 22, 22 TDs does not warrant 40M + incentives
That amount of production is as pedestrian as it gets and easily replicated.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on October 17, 2023, 04:30:56 PMI know all you want to do is disparage DJ in every post possible, but this has absolutely nothing to do with him.
It's a pretty weak argument to say a QB "made several first downs" during a game he led the offense to 0 TDs. Which, again, makes it pretty clear that the defense had everything to do with that game being close.
Noted that Taylor had issues punching the ball in from the 1, but Jones had issues driving into the redzone or even crossing midfield.