Based on the results on the field in 2023 by each QB, it doesn't seem like an outrageous question.
Daboll was asked about this after the game. See below for his response:
https://twitter.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1716219772931567672
Taylor started 2 games with Saquon as his RB and averaged 11.5 points per game.
If that is the impetus for a QB controversy, this team is far more flawed than it looks.
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In 4 games and 3/4ths of a game Jones has 884 passing yards 2 tds 6 int and a 71.7 rating.
In 2 games and a 1/4th tyrod taylor has 571 passing yards 2 tds 0 int and a 95.4 rating. Not to mention he hadn't played any meaningful snaps in 2+ years.
Doesn't seem the controversial or even a question to me. One has the offense moving up and down the field with explosive plays and the other goes 3 and out consistently throwing short of the sticks.
Not to mention it's amazing how well the defense plays when they know there is a qb in that can move the offense and they know they have a chance.
So I was waiting for someone to post something like this. Short answer is NO!
The only question that should be here is:
Is Jones the future going forward for the New York Giants and in my humble opinion the answer for me is sadly no. How the hell can there be a quarterback controversy Tyrod Taylor is 34 years old we are not going forward with a 34-year-old quarterback I'm sorry, but we need to do is think hard about this upcoming draft and possibly next draft and find a quarterback. I think the best thing going forward. If we're going to go for a quarterback, this season, we should take a strong look at the Michigan quarterback have him sit. The big conundrum what to do with Jones the meantime...?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 22, 2023, 08:31:11 PMSo I was waiting for someone to post something like this. Short answer is NO!
The only question that should be here is:
Is joe the future going forward for the New York Giants and in my humble opinion the answer for me is sadly no. How the hell can there be a quarterback controversy Tyrod Taylor is 34 years old we are not going forward with a 34-year-old quarterback I'm sorry but we need to do is think hard about this upcoming draft and possibly next draft and find a quarterback. I think the best thing going forward. If we're gonna go for a quarterback, this season, we should take a strong look at the Michigan quarterback have him sit in the big conundrum what to do with in the meantime
That's what this thread was about, what to do in the
meantime and no matter what sport you are in I think you go with the hot hand and right now Taylor while not hot, is at least warm by comparison to the other qbs on the roster.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 22, 2023, 08:30:48 PMIn 4 games and 3/4ths of a game Jones has 884 passing yards 2 tds 6 int and a 71.7 rating.
In 2 games and a 1/4th tyrod taylor has 571 passing yards 2 tds 0 int and a 95.4 rating. Not to mention he hadn't played any meaningful snaps in 2+ years.
Doesn't seem the controversial or even a question to me. One has the offense moving up and down the field with explosive plays and the other goes 3 and out consistently throwing short of the sticks.
Not to mention it's amazing how well the defense plays when they know there is a qb in that can move the offense and they know they have a chance.
I'm not a DJ apologist by any stretch, in fact I don't see him as the future of the franchise.
But I have to be fair; Taylor had the benefit of the opposing defense healthy respect of our potential to run primarily because he had Saquon. DJ didn't.
When you balance that with both QBs needing to negotiate a poor offensive line, I don't see anywhere near enough evidence to spark a controversy.
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Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 22, 2023, 08:34:38 PMThat's what this thread was about, what to do in the meantime and no matter what sport you are in I think you go with the hot hand and right now Taylor while not hot, is at least warm by comparison to the other qbs on the roster.
Correct. We're talking about this year specifically - not the long term.
After the way Taylor played today and with what we have seen from Jones this year, if Jones is fully cleared to play next week against the Jets and you're the one making the decision, which QB are you going with?
Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 22, 2023, 08:31:11 PMSo I was waiting for someone to post something like this. Short answer is NO!
The only question that should be here is:
Is joe the future going forward for the New York Giants and in my humble opinion the answer for me is sadly no. How the hell can there be a quarterback controversy Tyrod Taylor is 34 years old we are not going forward with a 34-year-old quarterback I'm sorry but we need to do is think hard about this upcoming draft and possibly next draft and find a quarterback. I think the best thing going forward. If we're gonna go for a quarterback, this season, we should take a strong look at the Michigan quarterback have him sit in the big conundrum what to do with in the meantime
Who's Joe?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 22, 2023, 08:38:30 PMCorrect. We're talking about this year specifically - not the long term.
After the way Taylor played today and with what we have seen from Jones this year, if Jones is fully cleared to play next week against the Jets and you're the one making the decision, which QB are you going with?
I don't think it's a question, unless you're trying to lose. I think you have to go with tyrod until something happens were you need to pull him.
For some fans there is.
They will never draft a top QB if they keep playing Tyrod Taylor. Just kidding.
They will never pay Daniel Jones with that contract to sit. Unless there was more at stake instead of winning 6 games vs 2.
Seriously though, they have to play Jones in order to make decisions and that's with Barkley, Thomas, and JMS. Jones deserves at least that.
I think he plays this week and hopefully he had that epiphany.
Jones last season, with Thomas, was better than Jones and Taylor this season. Taylor has played better than Jones this season. When Taylor plays the offense resembles more of what they did last season which was persistence with the run, low turnovers, and letting the defense shine.
I think compared to Jones this season, Taylor throws with less hesitation but doesn't need to throw as often because of success in the running game with Barkley back and his own keepers. Taylor looks identical to Jones when the Giants line up in a shotgun in 3rd and long situations, which is essentially a guaranteed sack within 2 seconds. We've seen it all year and I wish they'd do a max protect if they really must throw the ball or just run it for positive yards and set up their punter and defense. Jones this season had more 3rd and long situations and we continued to watch him get hit over and over in them and we'd see it impact his passing decisions on earlier downs that became a nasty feedback loop.
I think once Thomas comes back and the continued development of Hyatt that Taylor can get the Giants into a position to win each week like Jones did last year. We saw Jones get it done in Arizona this season and how great he was in close games last year but by the time of this 2nd neck injury, I was considering a successful offensive series to be one where he didn't take a vicious hit, let alone get a first down. My preference is that they stick with Taylor going forward until we don't think he can put them in a position to win games.
I didn't think Jones would be able to come back from his 1st neck injury with him being a running QB. He totally proved my assumption wrong and went ahead and delivered a playoff victory so maybe he'll prove me wrong again when he comes back.
If both QBs are healthy and cann play next week, you play the one you're paying the most.
You have to think long-term sustainability, not short-term satisfaction. Jones, by way of his salary, needs to play. If the Giants continue to lose with him, then they are in a better position to draft his successor.
They have Jones $40 million to play QB so if he can go he's going to start. Unfortunately, it's the same thing I said last week. Nobody thinks Tyrod is a great QB. If he was he would still be a starter somewhere. That said it's painfully obvious both QBs offer the same thing, they're both on that below average side of the scale and you're not paying one 40 million.
Jones has to be afforded the opportunity to play with an offense that looks more capable than the last time he was out there (mainly due to Pugh's addition, Barkley's return, and WR snaps trending towards talent instead of safety). If he is healthy, he plays.
But eyes are on him--and even for a fan like me, there is a stark difference between Taylor's willingness to throw into tight coverage and Jones's complete avoidance of that in favor of checkdowns. This offense has to open up upon his return.
The team plays better with Taylor. I'm not sure that's even arguable at this point. Because of that they absolutely have a controversy. Do they play the guy who's making 40 million dollars or do they play the best QB available?
My guess is if Jones is healthy he'll play and I think if he does he will be the best asset the Giants have to secure drafting his replacement.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 22, 2023, 08:34:38 PMThat's what this thread was about, what to do in the meantime and no matter what sport you are in I think you go with the hot hand and right now Taylor while not hot, is at least warm by comparison to the other qbs on the roster.
In the meantime? There is nothing to do. We are stuck with Jones...now and next year. Why play Taylor? 34-year-old QB? For what? I say put in Tommy DeVito and see what he can do. Draft J.J. McCarthy or Quinn Ewers in the draft and have them sit behind Jones. Sadly, Taylor might be the odd man out, just because of Jones' contract. Keep building and move on from Jones. Taylor is NOT the long term answer...we need to find one
Let's say Jones is healthy enough to start versus the Jets. He's going to be under tremendous pressure. If he throws up a stinker there's going to be zero patience for it.
Quote from: Gmo11 on October 22, 2023, 09:46:26 PMThe team plays better with Taylor. I'm not sure that's even arguable at this point. Because of that they absolutely have a controversy. Do they play the guy who's making 40 million dollars or do they play the best QB available?
My guess is if Jones is healthy he'll play and I think if he does he will be the best asset the Giants have to secure drafting his replacement.
This. With Taylor as the baseline, they need to know Jones is not the guy. Winning a couple of more games with Taylor does nothing to help this team's draft position, so let Jones stink up the joint or have a light bulb turn on
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Quote from: brownelvis54 on October 22, 2023, 09:58:13 PMIn the meantime? There is nothing to do. We are stuck with Jones...now and next year. Why play Taylor? 34-year-old QB? For what? I say put in Tommy DeVito and see what he can do. Draft J.J. McCarthy or Quinn Ewers in the draft and have them sit behind Jones. Sadly, Taylor might be the odd man out, just because of Jones' contract. Keep building and move on from Jones. Taylor is NOT the long term answer...we need to find one
You play Taylor out of pride for your team.
@DaveBrown74 and I discussed this today privately, as good as it would be for us to lose out so we can get a guy, neither him nor I can actively root against the team and want them to win every game even if that hurts our chances at a guy.
If we want to continue winning I think Taylor is a no brainer.
The last group of truly elite qbs were all drafted by teams that made the playoffs the year they drafted them Mahomes, Allen,or to a less extent Purdy, and Hurts. tanking doesn't give us the best chance to succeed in my opinion, it fractures the young pieces you already have.
Let the coaches coach to win and try to win then let the gm do what he gets paid for and make moves in the offseason to make sure we get a guy.
For right now ie the rest of this season Taylor gives you the best chance. No he's not the answer long term but neither is Jones after 5 years.
Once these coaches lose the locker room it's over, and after the performance the team has put up the past two games you can tell who the players feel more comfortable with imo.
One thing to keep in mind (I know this is obvious but it's worth saying out loud) is that they have to pay Jones the $40mm whether he plays or not. So that money is already spent. Right now at 2-5 they're desperate for wins. They don't have the luxury of making decisions based on what is optically convenient for them.
I do think they'll play Jones when he's healthy, but the leash won't be as long this time. If the offense looks like what it did before he got hurt, Taylor will be back in there, and he may be in there for a while. Simply put, the O line excuses won't hold nearly as much water this time around. Taylor has managed just fine behind this banged up line. The line is still clearly not good, but he has been more than functional out there as a 30-something journeyman backup making $5.5mm. So there really are no excuses for Jones to continue to be totally ineffective, which, save for two quarters in Arizona, he absolutely has been to this point.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 23, 2023, 07:14:58 AMOne thing to keep in mind (I know this is obvious but it's worth saying out loud) is that they have to pay Jones the $40mm whether he plays or not. So that money is already spent. Right now at 2-5 they're desperate for wins. They don't have the luxury of making decisions based on what is optically convenient for them.
I do think they'll play Jones when he's healthy, but the leash won't be as long this time. If the offense looks like what it did before he got hurt, Taylor will be back in there, and he may be in there for a while. Simply put, the O line excuses won't hold nearly as much water this time around. Taylor has managed just fine behind this banged up line. The line is still clearly not good, but he has been more than functional out there as a 30-something journeyman backup making $5.5mm. So there really are no excuses for Jones to continue to be totally ineffective, which, save for two quarters in Arizona, he absolutely has been to this point.
I think you're right.. But what concerns me about that is Taylor game 2 was better than Taylor game 1. He's had back to back weeks of taking all the practice reps and it's helped. If they ride him he may well continue to improve. If they go back to Jones and waste more time effort and reps on him even if they do have a short leash we may not get the best possible Taylor.
So if it were me making the decision it's one or the other and we sink or sail with the choice. Either they hammer home the point that Jones just isn't very good and get into position to draft his replacement or they say screw it they're only 1.5 out of a wild card spot (miraculously) let's see if Taylor can keep it going as Thomas and JMS get healthy.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 22, 2023, 08:20:22 PMTaylor started 2 games with Saquon as his RB and averaged 11.5 points per game.
If that is the impetus for a QB controversy, this team is far more flawed than it looks.
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Add in better pass protection and the team finally using the WRs correctly and one is hard pressed to believe that there is even remotely a controversy. Taylor did a good job job as a veteran backup, but his performance doesn't create a controversy
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 07:22:54 AMAdd in better pass protection and the team finally using the WRs correctly and one is hard pressed to believe that there is even remotely a controversy. Taylor did a good job job as a veteran backup, but his performance doesn't create a controversy
Would you agree that if Jones comes back and looks like he has looked for the vast majority of this year that there might then be a controversy (as far as 2023 goes)?
I'm sure they would play Jones based on what their financial investment is in him. As I've said, there is very little difference between the two with the exception of age. Jones is faster, bigger, but Taylor is a smarter QB and better at the long throw and making decisions. They both have to endure a bad offensive line and questionable play calling. The fan base, though, if Jones struggles, will howl for Taylor. The reality is if that the Giants need to find a QB where there will be no controversy. That won't happen for awhile though.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 23, 2023, 07:14:58 AMOne thing to keep in mind (I know this is obvious but it's worth saying out loud) is that they have to pay Jones the $40mm whether he plays or not. So that money is already spent. Right now at 2-5 they're desperate for wins. They don't have the luxury of making decisions based on what is optically convenient for them.
I do think they'll play Jones when he's healthy, but the leash won't be as long this time. If the offense looks like what it did before he got hurt, Taylor will be back in there, and he may be in there for a while. Simply put, the O line excuses won't hold nearly as much water this time around. Taylor has managed just fine behind this banged up line. The line is still clearly not good, but he has been more than functional out there as a 30-something journeyman backup making $5.5mm. So there really are no excuses for Jones to continue to be totally ineffective, which, save for two quarters in Arizona, he absolutely has been to this point.
Spot-on, Jeff; I also don't believe it's a coincidence the Oline and WRs have started to look better with TT under center vice DJ. It's a bit odd that ans blame the Oline for poor QB play, without acknowledging it's a symbiotic relationship; in short, the oline is as dependent on the QB, as the QB is on the oline. Also, the notion the coaches are finally using WRs like Hyatt differently is only true to a point; I believe the bigger difference is TT is more willing to the throw the ball into tight windows and deep. Hyatt, snaps have indeed increased from 60, 46, 73, 71 percent over the last four weeks; however, even when he played 60% of the offensive snaps in week four, he was only targeted 2x, with the longest attempt being 7 yards. In short, the improved QB play has yielded a better product on the field, even with 4/5 of the offensive line injured. Having said that, DJ will continue to start if he's healthy; however, as Kat pointed out above, the fan base won't tolerate the same play we've endured the first five weeks, and we've all witness how well DJ handles pressure. This paradigm could exaggerate the situation
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on October 22, 2023, 08:20:22 PMTaylor started 2 games with Saquon as his RB and averaged 11.5 points per game.
If that is the impetus for a QB controversy, this team is far more flawed than it looks.
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I think this is an important factor. its not like we are putting up dolphins level yards and points. The oline is starting to play a little better finally, (and i dont think tyrod has as much to do with that as some will point out), saquon is back, and maybe im reaching here, but it seems like kafka is finally getting creative ONLY after jones went down. AND playing hyatt more. Not to diminish what tyrod is doing out there. its only fair to say he's playing better. but i have to question is that because the TEAM is finally playing better.
Right now, you dont let a guy you just gave a huge contract to ride the bench. You just dont. But, if we put jones back out there, and he gets the same level of protection, the same barkley, the same play calling, etc... and he STILL stinks it up? I have no problem going back to tyrod at that point. Jones has had many excuses, and fair ones at that, but he does have PLENTY of his own warts. I actually think him getting injured was a good thing for him. Theres no way he can sit there watching these games and think to himself he has looked better than tyrod. hopefully that lights a fire under his rear end. Sometimes its good to take a breather and look from the outside in.
Sorry for the long winded answer, but the answer to this question is... Yes. We do have a qb controversy. The only thing that will change that is if when jones comes back, he puts up respectable starting qb numbers. I mean consistent 250 yrd, 2 td games most of the time. no more of this 160 yards, 0 td's. He needs to step it up, regardless of whats going on around him. Or else his time here is done.
I do not think there is a controversy simply because of the contract and Jones's draft position. The Giants have too much invested in Jones, they have to provide him every opportunity to succeed. Eventually Schoen and Daboll aren't going to let Jones sink their careers with his; however, I do not think they are there yet.
That being said TT is a journeyman back up and is doing some of the key processing jobs better than the 5th year 1st RD draft pick. TT is also making throws that Jones would either miss or let's be honest would not even throw. Last week TT had the second most pressure since Game 1 in Dallas so it's not as simple as better O line protection.
As I said last week I would very much like to see Jones play again. He should be the starter, he needs to prove himself.
He must play with some urgency, see if he can make the correct reads and adjustments, can he quickly identify the open receiver and push the ball downfield when it is needed.
Jones is down to 27 games left as a giant it's time to play like your job and existence on the team is dependent on it.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 23, 2023, 07:33:26 AMWould you agree that if Jones comes back and looks like he has looked for the vast majority of this year that there might then be a controversy (as far as 2023 goes)?
If Jones returns and the offense looks dysfunctional again for a game or two, there would be a controversy.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 23, 2023, 01:43:37 AMYou play Taylor out of pride for your team.
@DaveBrown74 and I discussed this today privately, as good as it would be for us to lose out so we can get a guy, neither him nor I can actively root against the team and want them to win every game even if that hurts our chances at a guy.
If we want to continue winning I think Taylor is a no brainer.
The last group of truly elite qbs were all drafted by teams that made the playoffs the year they drafted them Mahomes, Allen,or to a less extent Purdy, and Hurts. tanking doesn't give us the best chance to succeed in my opinion, it fractures the young pieces you already have.
Let the coaches coach to win and try to win then let the gm do what he gets paid for and make moves in the offseason to make sure we get a guy.
For right now ie the rest of this season Taylor gives you the best chance. No he's not the answer long term but neither is Jones after 5 years.
Once these coaches lose the locker room it's over, and after the performance the team has put up the past two games you can tell who the players feel more comfortable with imo.
You make a good case for Taylor. I don't mind seeing him start the rest of the season. However, I do have a couple of points to counter:
1) Playing Jones instead of Taylor doesn't equate to rooting against the G-Men or wanting/expecting them to lose.
2) Playing Taylor instead of Jones doesn't mean that the Giants will keep winning.
I do agree that Taylor gives the offense better opportunities to push the ball downfield and score points. But nothing is guaranteed in the NFL. He has done well with his two starts this season but as more teams see how he plays with this team, they will counter. And there will be no counter by Kafka. That's my biggest concern.
If Jones and Taylor were getting paid relatively the same amount, I'd say roll with Taylor. But they can't ignore the amount of money invested in Jones and have him sit if he's healthy. It's financially irresponsible to pay a guy 40 million to sit on his ass every week. And they aren't going to get rid of him next season either.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
"QB controversy" aside, we have to acknowledge what Tyrod Taylor has done better running this offense: Throwing downfield and navigating the pocket. Thoughts on Taylor and more from today's
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Not getting into these mentions. You can read the story for the nuanced take. But here are my thoughts, to be clear:
1. Jones will be the starter when healthy.
2. Jones should be the starter when healthy. Just gave him $160M. Can't bench him for a 34-year-old journeyman after five games.
3. Aspects of the offense have looked better with Tyrod (and yes, there are other factors involved).
Have a good day!
https://t.co/GSkWc68jce
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 22, 2023, 08:44:58 PMFor some fans there is.
They will never draft a top QB if they keep playing Tyrod Taylor. Just kidding.
They will never pay Daniel Jones with that contract to sit. Unless there was more at stake instead of winning 6 games vs 2.
Seriously though, they have to play Jones in order to make decisions and that's with Barkley, Thomas, and JMS. Jones deserves at least that.
I think he plays this week and hopefully he had that epiphany.
i agree. people are acting like beating the redskins (who we own), and playing decent against a banged up and under achieving bills team, is the same as playing some of the elite teams in the league while our oline was playing the worst they have ever played and zero threat of a run game. Not sure if jones "deserves" it, but the money and investments they have made in him dictate that you HAVE to play him when healthy, with this "improved" version of the team we have been steadily seeing. If you continue to get subpar results, you go back to tyrod. its that simple.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 23, 2023, 07:14:58 AMOne thing to keep in mind (I know this is obvious but it's worth saying out loud) is that they have to pay Jones the $40mm whether he plays or not. So that money is already spent. Right now at 2-5 they're desperate for wins. They don't have the luxury of making decisions based on what is optically convenient for them.
I do think they'll play Jones when he's healthy, but the leash won't be as long this time. If the offense looks like what it did before he got hurt, Taylor will be back in there, and he may be in there for a while. Simply put, the O line excuses won't hold nearly as much water this time around. Taylor has managed just fine behind this banged up line. The line is still clearly not good, but he has been more than functional out there as a 30-something journeyman backup making $5.5mm. So there really are no excuses for Jones to continue to be totally ineffective, which, save for two quarters in Arizona, he absolutely has been to this point.
Cant argue this at all. The only thing i'll say is the WHOLE team seems to be playing better and more motivated the last couple weeks. The WHOLE team was playing HORRIFIC when jones was in. I have a hard time believing thats ALL due to whos playing qb. I hope when he comes back we see more of the former. But if he continues to miss reads, roll out when he doesnt need to, throw inaccurate passes... its time to move on.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 07:22:54 AMAdd in better pass protection and the team finally using the WRs correctly and one is hard pressed to believe that there is even remotely a controversy. Taylor did a good job job as a veteran backup, but his performance doesn't create a controversy
so do you disagree with this notion a lot of fans seems to have that the line is ONLY playing better BECAUSE of Tyrod?
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 08:37:15 AMso do you disagree with this notion a lot of fans seems to have that the line is ONLY playing better BECAUSE of Tyrod?
There is a bit to unpack in the O-line. The line has been more veteran in the last couple of games with the addition of Pugh. As such, we are seeing less of the "whiffs" that totally disrupt plays. We are also seeing the pressure being less multiple. That is an underappreciated issue when it comes to pressure. QBs can usually handle pressure from one player, but when multiple players are pressuring the QB is severely challenged.
All that said, the run-blocking from this line has been less than ideal. I will also say that towards the end, DJ looked shell-shocked from dealing with so many whiffs and multiple pressure situations.
I will give TT credit in that he looked pretty relaxed out there rather than shell-shocked. It is hard not to argue that a more relaxed QB is more effective than a shell-shocked one in a given situation. So to some degree TT may have given the line a bit of a boost.
https://x.com/GiantInsider/status/1716438940507336725?s=20
To respond to the Title of the thread
NO!!!!
Dumpster Dan
A lot of good points here.
The Oline yesterday started out playing decently well in the first half, but Rivera made some adjustments and there was significantly more pressure in the second half. Pugh struggled for sure.
I think the reason Hyatt has gotten more snaps is because they know Taylor will look to him deep but also because he's running more routes and doing it well and has demonstrated hands and downfield blocking.
I wonder how Tyrod would have faired if he played as the starter all last season. I wonder if the scoring would have been higher. He should have started over Webb against the Eagles.
The loss of Thomas this season has been huge. It created all kinds of changes that mostly failed. Pugh was a good signing and although he hasn't been shut down well, he settled things down and provided much better overall protection.
I don't think Taylor would have saved Judge's job. That Oline mailed it in and the team quit on him.
I agree that Jones has a shorter leash and he's not going to be allowed to take Daboll and Schoen down.
If Thomas comes back this week I expect some rust. Him back with JMS will be a lift but that Jets Defense is very good. They will exploit any mistakes Jones makes and the Boo Birds will be unmerciful.
I am curious what metric posters are you using to suggest the oline play has improved? According to the data, the pressure numbers have been identical. In fact, against Buffalo, the Oline allowed the most pressures since week 1; yesterday, the Oline made Chase Young look like an AP, surrendering 4 sacks and 5 QB hits. Thier TT is also identical. The data is quite clear, the Oline hasn't improved, what's improved is how the QB is responding to said pressure, which I humbly suggest creates a false reality that a line consisting of Pugh, McKethan, Phillips, Bredson and Glowinki is actually performing well. The line didn't mysteriously get better during their two best players (Thomas and JMS) absence...
Quote from: kingm56 on October 23, 2023, 09:52:53 AMI am curious what metric posters are you using to suggest the oline play has improved? According to the data, the pressure numbers have been identical. In fact, against Buffalo, the Oline allowed the most pressures since week 1; yesterday, the Oline made Chase Young look like an AP, surrendering 4 sacks and 5 QB hits. Thier TT is also identical. The data is quite clear, the Oline hasn't improved, what's improved is how the QB is responding to said pressure, which I humbly suggest creates a false reality that a line consisting of Pugh, McKethan, Phillips, Bredson and Glowinki is actually performing well. The line didn't mysteriously get better during their two best players (Thomas and JMS) absence...
I Know a lot of people dont believe in it, but their PFF grades last week against buffalo were WAY better than they have been. i havent seen the grades from yesterday yet. but for guys like mckethan and glowinski to go from literal 0 pass blocking grades to 50-70, thats a monumental improvement.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 10:14:09 AMI Know a lot of people dont believe in it, but their PFF grades last week against buffalo were WAY better than they have been. i havent seen the grades from yesterday yet. but for guys like mckethan and glowinski to go from literal 0 pass blocking grades to 50-70, thats a monumental improvement.
You're in favor of valuing subjective over objective data? BTW, what does the former (i.e.) say about the QB play over the same period? Are we comfortable suggesting the Oline is better without Taylor and JMS? Is it possible the subjective data is manipulated by the QB play (i.e. the oline looks better as a result of improved QB play)?
The team was so dreadful and in the mud that any improvement is looked at as more than what it is. The bar is dreadfully low.
Quote from: kingm56 on October 23, 2023, 10:20:45 AMYou're in favor of valuing subjective over objective data? BTW, what does the former (i.e.) say about the QB play over the same period? Are we comfortable suggesting the Oline is better without Taylor and JMS? Is it possible the subjective data is manipulated by the QB play (i.e. the oline looks better as a result of improved QB play)?
i personally think the entire team was playing like trash. and now the entire team is playing at least somewhat decent football. as the person above posted, we were playing SO poorly than any improvement looks like major improvement.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 22, 2023, 08:10:20 PMBased on the results on the field in 2023 by each QB, it doesn't seem like an outrageous question.
My take on this : Mental toughness.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Daniel Jones toolset. He's a fierce competitor but I think he lacks mental toughness to play the game through the rough and ugly games. I just can't imagine DJ pulling off a game like Eli did vs SF in the bloodbath playoff game. I think the coaches have to do something about it.
But, in Daniel Jones defense, had to play with multiple scores down. The defense was inexistant. Making the offense more unidimentional, not a great thing when you play with a pourous line.
The silver lining is, we have two potent QB's and our kids are getting more experience under their belt. Hyatt and Banks need to keep ramping up and things could get even better when our all-pro left tackle joins the party.
Tyrod does one thing better than Jones: he cuts it loose. Tyrod isn't nearly as fast as Jones - Jones would have taken some of those scrambles a longer way yesterday - and the accuracy is about the same.....but Tyrod is willing to take the shot upfield. Maybe it's the security of being a backup veteran - Taylor has little/nothing to lose, while Jones worries that turnovers will cost him his job, so he plays it safe. Maybe, just maybe, watching Tyrod operate will prove beneficial and we'll see DJ let it rip a little more when he returns.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
Quote from: Gman329 on October 23, 2023, 10:59:16 AMTyrod does one thing better than Jones: he cuts it loose. Tyrod isn't nearly as fast as Jones - Jones would have taken some of those scrambles a longer way yesterday - and the accuracy is about the same.....but Tyrod is willing to take the shot upfield. Maybe it's the security of being a backup veteran - Taylor has little/nothing to lose, while Jones worries that turnovers will cost him his job, so he plays it safe. Maybe, just maybe, watching Tyrod operate will prove beneficial and we'll see DJ let it rip a little more when he returns.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
I totally agree. i think jones was just stuck in the mud. getting to sit out and catch his breath for a minute, and watching tyrod do things he can but hasnt been doing, should be a major wake up call to him. its been beaten to death but he needs to make better, faster decisions. it feels like every snap im yelling at the tv "GET RID OF IT!"
Here are some takes by Bobby Skinner and a couple of long-time beat writers. I will say that I think Bobby may have the more nuanced and better take. Taylor's best hasn't been better than DJ's best, but Taylor's play has been better than DJ's worst. That allows plenty of wiggle room in terms of interpretation.
To me, you have to consider that Jones is the starter. To be Wally Pipped, Taylor would have had to put up impressive performances. 9 against Buffalo (who surrendered 29 yesterday against the lowly Pats) and 14 against the Commanders (who have been giving up 20 and who lost their best LB early in the game) aren't the sort of performances that get a starter benched.
Now as I said earlier, if the offense regresses when Jones returns, there is a different conversation to be had, and at that point, I think it's fair to say DJ's career as a starter could effectively be over. Of course with what is starting to look like chronic neck issues, DJ's career could still be in jeopardy.
https://x.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1716466925587357724?s=20
https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1716416273154715719?s=20
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Competition matters. Who the QB is playing with matters.
Pretending it doesn't, well that's foolish.
Don't take anything away from Tyrod Taylor. But don't use it to fuel the agenda against Daniel Jones.
Jones didn't even play yesterday and he's getting crushed today.
10:38 AM · Oct 23, 2023
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https://x.com/art_stapleton/status/1716464139491491963?s=20
Daniel Jones who has trained and practiced with the first team and has played in five games with the starters would certainly have an edge over Tyrod Taylor who has practiced for and played two games. So spare me the Jones was better in two starts narrative. We also don't know how Jones would have played or if he would have won or lost against Washington.
The fact is that Tyrod improved over two games and the Giants won. The fact is that there were no Defensive touchdowns padding stats. The fact is that at least six and maybe ten points were taken off the board due to others failures. So, 19 or 24 points. A decent day after just two starts.
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 23, 2023, 11:34:39 AMDaniel Jones who has trained and practiced with the first team and has played in five games with the starters would certainly have an edge over Tyrod Taylor who has practiced for and played two games. So spare me the Jones was better in two starts narrative. We also don't know how Jones would have played or if he would have won or lost against Washington.
The fact is that Tyrod improved over two games and the Giants won. The fact is that there were no Defensive touchdowns padding stats. The fact is that at least six and maybe ten points were taken off the board due to others failures. So, 19 or 24 points. A decent day after just two starts.
There was no recent tape on Tyrod Taylor, which also puts the defense at a disadvantage. Plus, in camp, Taylor took plenty of snaps with Hyatt. Robinson was on PUP so neither DJ nor Taylor took snaps with him. The only receivers Jones would have had an advantage with would be Slayton and Waller.
Quote from: MightyGiants on October 23, 2023, 11:45:59 AMThere was no recent tape on Tyrod Taylor, which also puts the defense at a disadvantage. Plus, in camp, Taylor took plenty of snaps with Hyatt. Robinson was on PUP so neither DJ nor Taylor took snaps with him. The only receivers Jones would have had an advantage with would be Slayton and Waller.
Jones has 58 starts in 5 years and Taylor 9. Jones has trained for and practiced for and played in 21 starts in this Offense and Taylor 2.
https://x.com/nickfalato/status/1716478343766475198?
Quote from: Ed Vette on October 23, 2023, 12:01:27 PMJones has 58 starts in 5 years and Taylor 9. Jones has trained for and practiced for and played in 21 starts in this Offense and Taylor 2.
https://x.com/nickfalato/status/1716478343766475198?
its mind boggling that jones cant make this type of play. you see nearly the same situation all the time, yet he cant locate ANYONE. usually winds up running it for 2 yards and facefull of grass, or throws it out of bounds. he HAS to get it figured out.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 22, 2023, 08:30:48 PMIn 4 games and 3/4ths of a game Jones has 884 passing yards 2 tds 6 int and a 71.7 rating.
In 2 games and a 1/4th tyrod taylor has 571 passing yards 2 tds 0 int and a 95.4 rating. Not to mention he hadn't played any meaningful snaps in 2+ years.
Doesn't seem the controversial or even a question to me. One has the offense moving up and down the field with explosive plays and the other goes 3 and out consistently throwing short of the sticks.
Not to mention it's amazing how well the defense plays when they know there is a qb in that can move the offense and they know they have a chance.
Good summary. Agree with that assessment.
Taking a line from my favorite movie "Heaven Can Wait" about TT
"He's looking awfuly good"
TT moves more quickly and releases the ball much faster and with confidence.
He's not afraid to toss a high trajectory 50/50 ball and trust the receiver
Jones is terrified of throwing those
Jones was a mistake it appears. He needs a very solid Oline to succeed
We dont have that.
I guess we go back to Jones but I'm dreading it at this point to be honest
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 23, 2023, 11:01:40 AMI totally agree. i think jones was just stuck in the mud. getting to sit out and catch his breath for a minute, and watching tyrod do things he can but hasnt been doing, should be a major wake up call to him. its been beaten to death but he needs to make better, faster decisions. it feels like every snap im yelling at the tv "GET RID OF IT!"
I'm constantly screaming, "Throw the ball! Throw the ball!" at Jones
Quote from: BluesCruz on October 23, 2023, 01:35:06 PMJones was a mistake it appears. He needs a very solid Oline to succeed
We dont have that.
I guess we go back to Jones but I'm dreading it at this point to be honest
That's what many of were saying when they inked the contract -- if your QB NEEDS a great OL , RB, and WR to succeed, why bother paying Jones $40 mil AAV? You can get a dozen QBs to plug into your great offense for far less. Plus, how are you paying for all those other great players when your cap is being dragged down by a mediocre at best QB? It's all a fantasy.
So just to clarify in the event that Jones starts next week.
Do people think the line drastically changed in 2 weeks and are suddenly something they haven't been all season?
The reason I asked is because Taylor produced and a lot of the reasoning I'm seeing for his performance is that the line is somehow better despite having the same players + a guy off his couch.
So this coming weekend if Jones does start and we do end up with another sub 200 yard game and no explosive plays, will Oline be the blame again?
https://x.com/bobbyskinner_/status/1716543643635405180?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
I would be very hesitant to put Jones in next week. Not so much because Taylor has played well but that Jones is one hit away from a career ending neck injury. It's the neck that's a very serious issue going forward.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 23, 2023, 04:34:26 PMSo just to clarify in the event that Jones starts next week.
Do people think the line drastically changed in 2 weeks and are suddenly something they haven't been all season?
The reason I asked is because Taylor produced and a lot of the reasoning I'm seeing for his performance is that the line is somehow better despite having the same players + a guy off his couch.
So this coming weekend if Jones does start and we do end up with another sub 200 yard game and no explosive plays, will Oline be the blame again?
The notion that this rag-tag line, which led people to predict that Taylor would not make it through the Bills game conscious and on his own two feet, is all of a sudden good now, and that this sudden metamorphosis is entirely, 100% coincidental with the fact that there was a QB change, strains credibility to say the absolute least.
But ok.
Taylor has been a lifelong backup for good reason and that doesn't change because he completed a couple of deep throws to Hyatt on Sunday. Once Jones is cleared to return, he will again be and remain the starter unless and until he proves to be not worth more than the money guaranteed him through at least the 2024 season. Taylor, if he is still around, will have nothing whatever to do that decision. Indeed, the Giants generally unimpressive, too often failing Oline throughout much of the past decade may have a lot more to do with it.
Cheers!
jones is indecicive
he is slow to process the defense, and the open receivers
he throws behind receivers often
he cannot bring himself to throw a long 50/50 pass
he is not a vocal leader, but a nice guy who says all the right things
stop defending the indefensible
he was a 40 million dollar mistake....likely pushed by Mara
lets call a spade a spade
Quote from: katkavage on October 23, 2023, 07:39:35 AMI'm sure they would play Jones based on what their financial investment is in him. As I've said, there is very little difference between the two with the exception of age. Jones is faster, bigger, but Taylor is a smarter QB and better at the long throw and making decisions. They both have to endure a bad offensive line and questionable play calling. The fan base, though, if Jones struggles, will howl for Taylor. The reality is if that the Giants need to find a QB where there will be no controversy. That won't happen for awhile though.
I dispute that. A smart QB doesn't check into a run with 14 seconds left in the half with no timeouts when he could easily have 2, maybe even 3, passes into the end zone - and even if they were unsuccessful, still kick a FG. A 35 year old veteran. I can't remember Jones doing anything nearly that dumb.
I am not going to read the entire thread. It is painfully amazing how far the bar has dropped. Taylor was slightly better than terrible the past 2 weeks.
Quote from: coggs on October 23, 2023, 09:11:16 PMI am not going to read the entire thread. It is painfully amazing how far the bar has dropped. Taylor was slightly better than terrible the past 2 weeks.
Yes, the bar has dropped, significantly. Taylor threw for 279. A figure that Jones has only eclipsed 3 times in his last 21 regular season starts.
Of course people are going to have their head turned.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 24, 2023, 05:09:21 AMYes, the bar has dropped, significantly. Taylor threw for 279. A figure that Jones has only eclipsed 3 times in his last 21 regular season starts.
Of course people are going to have their head turned.
Correct. It's been a very long time since we have had genuinely good QB play on this team. You're going back to the Obama administration at this point.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 23, 2023, 04:34:26 PMSo just to clarify in the event that Jones starts next week.
Do people think the line drastically changed in 2 weeks and are suddenly something they haven't been all season?
The reason I asked is because Taylor produced and a lot of the reasoning I'm seeing for his performance is that the line is somehow better despite having the same players + a guy off his couch.
So this coming weekend if Jones does start and we do end up with another sub 200 yard game and no explosive plays, will Oline be the blame again?
I think the oline definitely took a step forward. whether it had anything to do with tyrod or not.. maybe a little. but guys are just playing better and not getting beat off the snap. i dont really see how a different qb makes you block better for the first 1.5 seconds.
Honestly, i think you sit jones this game. the jets have a NASTY d. From a political standpoint, the strategy would be sit jones. because if you play him, against THAT d, and he has a terrible game (likely), then you have a full blown qb controversy on your hands. If tyrod puts up a stinker, it re-establishes jones as the starter. If he plays REALLY well...you have your answer. Tyrod is now qb1. we play a pretty beatable oakland team the following week. good game for jones to come back in. I can guarantee you management has this exact thinking. They cant let this qb controversy thing become a distraction.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 24, 2023, 05:09:21 AMYes, the bar has dropped, significantly. Taylor threw for 279. A figure that Jones has only eclipsed 3 times in his last 21 regular season starts.
Of course people are going to have their head turned.
DJ only had 8x 300+ games in 3 seasons in college too, despite playing in a conference voided of elite defenses; he has never been an above-average passer...
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 22, 2023, 08:30:48 PMIn 4 games and 3/4ths of a game Jones has 884 passing yards 2 tds 6 int and a 71.7 rating.
In 2 games and a 1/4th tyrod taylor has 571 passing yards 2 tds 0 int and a 95.4 rating. Not to mention he hadn't played any meaningful snaps in 2+ years.
Doesn't seem the controversial or even a question to me. One has the offense moving up and down the field with explosive plays and the other goes 3 and out consistently throwing short of the sticks.
Not to mention it's amazing how well the defense plays when they know there is a qb in that can move the offense and they know they have a chance.
you read my mind exactly
$ and contracts should take a back seat to winning
We need to ride the TT wave until it disolves, if it disolves, then give jones a redemption chance. this team needs a sustained win streak nothing succeeds like success
the offense was growing cobwebs with Jones at the helm. The man refuses to throw the ball deep and when he tries he is inaccurate. Likely since he does not practice the lemondrop pass
Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 24, 2023, 07:30:52 AMI think the oline definitely took a step forward. whether it had anything to do with tyrod or not.. maybe a little. but guys are just playing better and not getting beat off the snap. i dont really see how a different qb makes you block better for the first 1.5 seconds.
I think a QB himself will directly impact the kind of defensive looks he sees. A QB whose usual first instinct is to check it down to the closest receiver at the first whiff of impending pressure is going to be treated differently by the opposing D than a QB who looks downfield and is a constant threat to go to guys like Slayton and Hyatt deep, including very quickly after the snap. I think that is the part of the analysis here that may be getting lost.
Quote from: coggs on October 23, 2023, 09:11:16 PMI am not going to read the entire thread. It is painfully amazing how far the bar has dropped. Taylor was slightly better than terrible the past 2 weeks.
As was Saquon.
The Giants are in a bind
They guaranteed 40 million to a guy who to take a line from the movie Meet the Parents- "Is afraid to throw the ball"
I think if TT continues to win and look sharp, Jones is going to have a "prolonged recovery"
Im convinced now Jones is a back-up quality QB. Perhaps all the coaching he got to throw the ball to the short target by endless new coaching staffs took its toll
Remember "Danny Dimes" who threw into infinitely small windows....hes been coached out of existence
Quote from: BluesCruz on October 25, 2023, 03:54:31 PMThe Giants are in a bind.
Remember "Danny Dimes" who threw into infinitely small windows....hes been coached out of existence
Yes, that and the league has potentially figured him out.
Completely agree, I think they are in a bind.
He'll be on the team in 2024, what role he plays in 2024 is TBD.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on October 25, 2023, 05:08:11 PMHe'll be on the team in 2024, what role he plays in 2024 is TBD.
Agreed. Whether the Giants want to move on or not, nobody is taking that 2024 $47mm cap hit off our hands for a guy who, based on what has been put on tape and also based on career stats, does not appear to be better than Tyrod Taylor and who gets hurt almost every year.
Jones is playing Sunday.
And if he struggles, the Giants decision-makers are going to hear about it.
Quote from: 4 Aces on October 25, 2023, 05:23:06 PMJones is playing Sunday.
Has this been announced? If so, I missed it.
What scares me is the neck thing
Hes a running QB and and necks are at risk in the open field
He should probably retire, take his 40 million and find another occupation (Daryl Stingley and Dennis Byrd leave me with sobering thoughts). even after taxes 40 million is retirement money
Some unscupulous assassins might even target him
We need to see what this DeVito kid can do....to me TT is better than Jones anyway.
Didnt realize TT was this good
The brain Fahrdt by TT before the half was unfortunate but waddayagonnado Barkley should perhaps have questioned the call in the huddle. As far as I could see Barkley ran right and had no blockers. Was he supposed to cut left? The play was a all round disaster
Quote from: 4 Aces on October 25, 2023, 05:23:06 PMJones is playing Sunday.
And if he struggles, the Giants decision-makers are going to hear about it.
That's not what I'm reading. Taylor took first team reps again today.
Yeah Jones is definitely not playing Sunday. If he hasn't been cleared by today he won't be in time.