Our WRs are getting open. The scheme works. Our QB play is pitiful. This is going to turn around quicker than most people think if we get the QB.
https://x.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515?s=20
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 09, 2023, 01:27:49 PMOur WRs are getting open. The scheme works. Our QB play is pitiful. This is going to turn around quicker than most people think if we get the QB.
https://x.com/throwthedamball/status/1722617033823535515?s=20
And how is the OL doing? Does the QB have enough time to scan the field confidently and set up to throw free from pressure?
Dgood: Can you suggest a QB who's going to turn it around quicker than most people think?
It could happen, even with the current offensive line and WR's, but it's doubtful.
Until the OL stabilizes & Giant draft (or sign as a free agent) a truly elite WR (or Hyatt becomes that guy), I don't think it's likely.
Bob
A good QB can throw with anticipation even when the OL is not good. The offense moved better with Tyrod for this reason. Just look at Burrow with the Bengals. They made the Super Bowl with a piss poor OL. There are plays to be made that Jones just doesn't see. And when he sees them, he doesn't throw accurately enough. Time for excuses are over. Draft a QB.
I think all of Caleb Williams, Drake Maye and JJ McCarthy would do so. Though Drake Maye is my favorite of the bunch. I have McCarthy third. Any of these guys will be better than Jones from day 1 and could be top level QBs by year 2. I think we compete for the playoffs next year with these guys.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 09, 2023, 01:37:04 PMDgood: Can you suggest a QB who's going to turn it around quicker than most people think?
It could happen, even with the current offensive line and WR's, but it's doubtful.
Until the OL stabilizes & Giant draft (or sign as a free agent) a truly elite WR (or Hyatt becomes that guy), I don't think it's likely.
Bob
I just don't get it. The oline isn't that far off. We are a Guard and maybe a tackle away from having a good line. Between Pugh, Brederson, and Glow that's at least LG and then you get two guys in free agency and we will be better for it and then draft your Qb. Sign a good back to a cheap contract and draft the last wr to fill out the young trio and you have your offense.
I'd expect Jones to be the backup next year as it will be hard to move that salary.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 09, 2023, 01:38:58 PMI think all of Caleb Williams, Drake Maye and JJ McCarthy would do so. Though Drake Maye is my favorite of the bunch. I have McCarthy third. Any of these guys will be better than Jones from day 1 and could be top level QBs by year 2. I think we compete for the playoffs next year with these guys.
Dgood: Maye is a lot more on my "radar" than he was before you and other members began mentioning him a lot.
I follow all college QB's as much as humanly possible.
I'm very cautious and mindful of the old adage - once burned, twice shy.
He and Jones play in the same league. That particular factor has become more important to my personal evaluation of college QB's over the past five years than it was previously (based on which have been successful and which have not... the NFL game has changed rather rapidly during that relatively short amount of time).
Bob
Jones was never in the same area code as a prospect as Maye. Jones was graded as a 2nd round prospect by most. We reached for him and were mocked for doing so. Maye has been on the radar as a top prospect since his first college game.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 09, 2023, 02:07:40 PMDgood: Maye is a lot more on my "radar" than he was before you and other members began mentioning him a lot.
I follow all college QB's as much as humanly possible.
I'm very cautious and mindful of the old adage - once burned, twice shy.
He and Jones play in the same league. That particular factor has become more important to my personal evaluation of college QB's over the past five years than it was previously (based on which have been successful and which have not... the NFL game has changed rather rapidly during that relatively short amount of time).
Bob
I saw this Tweet, but I didn't post it. I have no idea where or how he derived his data. I questioned the value of "throw to the open man" as plays have structures. There are progressions. Plays often have decoys, and I am not sure how the data compiled accounted for decoys on plays.
I also don't know when the operation was determined. I also wonder about the shorter throws where a man is covered in the zone, but the defender has some separation. However, if the QB throws the ball, the defender breaks on the route for an INT. I don't know how that was all gathered.
I looked at the author's background. He is an intern at PFF, has done work on sports betting, and his education is in economics.
So that's why I passed on this.
I don't see a killer instinct with Maye. Great qbs don't lose games like he has this year against far less talent.
All year we've seen Jones make bad reads to throw short to covered guys. Opponents have mocked this tendency. So the chart backs up what we've seen on film. Pretending this doesn't happen seems like folly to me. And then we have the plays where he just can't hit guys who are open, which happened multiple times this week as well. He has been the biggest problem.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 09, 2023, 02:51:54 PMI saw this Tweet, but I didn't post it. I have no idea where or how he derived his data. I questioned the value of "throw to the open man" as plays have structures. There are progressions. Plays often have decoys, and I am not sure how the data compiled accounted for decoys on plays.
I also don't know when the operation was determined. I also wonder about the shorter throws where a man is covered in the zone, but the defender has some separation. However, if the QB throws the ball, the defender breaks on the route for an INT. I don't know how that was all gathered.
I looked at the author's background. He is an intern at PFF, has done work on sports betting, and his education is in economics.
So that's why I passed on this.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 09, 2023, 05:45:58 PMAll year we've seen Jones make bad reads to throw short to covered guys. Opponents have mocked this tendency. So the chart backs up what we've seen on film. Pretending this doesn't happen seems like folly to me. And then we have the plays where he just can't hit guys who are open, which happened multiple times this week as well. He has been the biggest problem.
He's a key problem but this doesn't demonstrate he's the biggest problem. It's a combination of the QB, the protection, the execution of all offensive players, the preparation and the play calling in touch with the game flow and adjustments.
At what point were they open and what other related factors were involved.
No doubt he's not the QB this team needs. No doubt the Receivers created separated and I demonstrated that on multiple posts from the All-22.
This team imploded in a perfect storm.
Plenty of blame to go around.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 09, 2023, 02:00:17 PMI just don't get it. The oline isn't that far off. We are a Guard and maybe a tackle away from having a good line. Between Pugh, Brederson, and Glow that's at least LG and then you get two guys in free agency and we will be better for it and then draft your Qb. Sign a good back to a cheap contract and draft the last wr to fill out the young trio and you have your offense.
All it takes is one player saying Ole and letting his opponent pass. That's what Neal has been doing against good DLs.
Yeah. It was Neal's fault Jones missed Hyatt open deep twice this week with no pressure.
The routine of absolving Jones' poor play due to protection was turned upside down by watching Tyrod play behind the same line (actually even worse line if you count the injury of their backup LT, Ezeudu). Taylor wasn't perfect, but he was clearly more effective than Jones, and he was facing top defensive fronts.
Jones is not the guy. I think 98% of Giants fans feel that way now, and I think the team (including the stubborn, emotional Mara) finally agrees. He'll be on the roster next year because they really have no other choice, but if he ever starts again at all it will be a limited number of times. In future years the Daniel Jones era will be remembered as an unequivocal failure, punctuated by handing him a franchise-harming contract he never earned. There is really no logical way around these realities.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 09, 2023, 09:43:47 PMYeah. It was Neal's fault Jones missed Hyatt open deep twice this week with no pressure.
I think your stance on Jones is well-documented. Everyone else is entitled to their opinion just as you are yours.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 09, 2023, 09:40:13 PMAll it takes is one player saying Ole and letting his opponent pass. That's what Neal has been doing against good DLs.
I am in a small minority of a minority that thinks neal is slowly getting better.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 10, 2023, 12:30:13 PMI am in a small minority of a minority that thinks neal is slowly getting better.
J: I'm right there with you.
I went back and watched a few games from last season just to be sure.
I realize most members don't want to hear this, but with some guys it takes three years (usually not) for the lights to go on.
Most of them are WR's (lol - I know it's insulting) but who's to say Neal's not one of them. I don't like it (after all, he was a top 10 pick).
But we have bigger problems, including OL communication in general (doesn't help that the guy next to him changes IMO more often than is optimal).
Bob
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 10, 2023, 12:30:13 PMI am in a small minority of a minority that thinks neal is slowly getting better.
I agree but I believe he has a ceiling due to his heavy feet. He can offset that by becoming more of a beast in Run Blocking.
His feat aren't the problem. His problem is leaning forward and being too passive with his hands.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 10, 2023, 01:48:02 PMI agree but I believe he has a ceiling due to his heavy feet. He can offset that by becoming more of a beast in Run Blocking.
I concur, Ed. He simply doesn't have the lateral agility necessary to be a top tier T.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 10, 2023, 01:48:02 PMI agree but I believe he has a ceiling due to his heavy feet. He can offset that by becoming more of a beast in Run Blocking.
Ed: I don't like the running plays to his side.
They seem to rely on quick feet (a weakness) rather than strength and size (strong points).
Teams seem to favor putting small/quick guys on his side, but IMO the Giants don't counter often by calling more plays allowing Neal to use his size to move small guys backward. Of course, it doesn't help that the Giants are almost always playing from behind (in the score, as well as getting behind the sticks with 2nd and 10, etc.).
Bob