With the upcoming game against __th ranked Penn State tomorrow as well as #1 ranked OSU in 3 weeks, Giants fans will have two outstanding games to watch JJ McCarthy play. I would not be surprised if the entire Giants scouting, personnel, coaching and management will be at one of those games. As a Michigan fan and someone who has watched every game he has played in, I want to offer a few tips for you to pay attention to if you catch either or both games. Please note that I am not yet 100% sold on JJ as the Giants solution. There are a lot of things I really like about him but there are things I want to see more of between now and end of season and if they make it into the College Football Playoffs.
Mechanics - JJ has gorgeous mechanics. He throws it using his large muscles in his legs, butt and hips and gets really nice hip rotation. He holds it differently than John Elway did, but I see a lot of parallels to his mechanics. That said, he engages his whole body in throws unlike say Warren Moon who just flicked his wrist and a perfectly thrown spiral with amazing touch left his arm. Since JJ uses his entire body, I worry about his ability to consistently throw the short ball as well as it needs to be thrown. In that case, it is a lighter grip and more of a flick than an entire body motion. I want to see these short throws and the results.
Strength of arm versus getting air under long passes - JJ throws ropes. Plain and simple. If there is one criticism I had earlier in his career is that on long passes, he does not get enough air under his passes so his WRs can run under them. Less touch and more howitzer. He has gotten better this year but I want to see more of it.
Scrambling to pass versus scrambling to run - here is where JJ has really changed up his game. He used to scramble to run, but now his head and eyes are always up scanning the field to make throws. I think this is one of his greatest developments. He scrambles really well to both his left and right. One stat to remember is that I think this year, JJ has a completion rate of something 92% when throwing outside the pocket.
Downfield Mentality - JJ is not a dump it off type of QB like DJ is. He is looking downfield nearly all the time. He is a big chunk yardage type of QB. Against Ohio State last year, he was only 12-24 but he threw for something like 263 yards. This year he is throwing for over 76% pass completions but he is still doing it with a downfield mindset.
Conclusion - When watching either game, I would look for these traits I mentioned rather than just look for overall stats. He is still a work in progress. Remember he is only 20 years old. He still can return to Michigan for another season and right now he said he is 50-50. I think he comes out, but who knows? Also, I would not get too high or too low on him based in either or both games. Just see if you are seeing these traits.
Wow. Great post! I am going to dive deep with JJ this ā“month. Will reference your take. :ok:
It will also be nice to see how he reacts to the adversity of not having Harbaugh there. I'll watch the game closely but will be in person at a different game with two other Qbs, Jaxson Dart and Carson Beck.
I don't think Beck will enter the draft this season.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 10, 2023, 04:34:33 PMWith the upcoming game against __th ranked Penn State tomorrow as well as #1 ranked OSU in 3 weeks, Giants fans will have two outstanding games to watch JJ McCarthy play. I would not be surprised if the entire Giants scouting, personnel, coaching and management will be at one of those games. As a Michigan fan and someone who has watched every game he has played in, I want to offer a few tips for you to pay attention to if you catch either or both games. Please note that I am not yet 100% sold on JJ as the Giants solution. There are a lot of things I really like about him but there are things I want to see more of between now and end of season and if they make it into the College Football Playoffs.
Mechanics - JJ has gorgeous mechanics. He throws it using his large muscles in his legs, butt and hips and gets really nice hip rotation. He holds it differently than John Elway did, but I see a lot of parallels to his mechanics. That said, he engages his whole body in throws unlike say Warren Moon who just flicked his wrist and a perfectly thrown spiral with amazing touch left his arm. Since JJ uses his entire body, I worry about his ability to consistently throw the short ball as well as it needs to be thrown. In that case, it is a lighter grip and more of a flick than an entire body motion. I want to see these short throws and the results.
Strength of arm versus getting air under long passes - JJ throws ropes. Plain and simple. If there is one criticism I had earlier in his career is that on long passes, he does not get enough air under his passes so his WRs can run under them. Less touch and more howitzer. He has gotten better this year but I want to see more of it.
Scrambling to pass versus scrambling to run - here is where JJ has really changed up his game. He used to scramble to run, but now his head and eyes are always up scanning the field to make throws. I think this is one of his greatest developments. He scrambles really well to both his left and right. One stat to remember is that I think this year, JJ has a completion rate of something 92% when throwing outside the pocket.
Downfield Mentality - JJ is not a dump it off type of QB like DJ is. He is looking downfield nearly all the time. He is a big chunk yardage type of QB. Against Ohio State last year, he was only 12-24 but he threw for something like 263 yards. This year he is throwing for over 76% pass completions but he is still doing it with a downfield mindset.
Conclusion - When watching either game, I would look for these traits I mentioned rather than just look for overall stats. He is still a work in progress. Remember he is only 20 years old. He still can return to Michigan for another season and right now he said he is 50-50. I think he comes out, but who knows? Also, I would not get too high or too low on him based in either or both games. Just see if you are seeing these traits.
Phil: It was already a must-see game for me, but nice post and good analysis. Bob
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 10, 2023, 09:58:58 PMIt will also be nice to see how he reacts to the adversity of not having Harbaugh there. I'll watch the game closely but will be in person at a different game with two other Qbs, Jaxson Dart and Carson Beck.
From a Michigan perspective I want JH there. From a Giants perspective, you are right Jess. That will be a good twist he will have to deal with.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 10, 2023, 10:59:30 PMFrom a Michigan perspective I want JH there. From a Giants perspective, you are right Jess. That will be a good twist he will have to deal with.
Ole Miss is dealing with their own situation. A soft kid got kicked off the team and recorded kiffin kicking him off the team but it seemed to backfire as most agreed with kiffin. Amazingly it got leaked the week of the biggest game at ole miss since Elis final season, more specifically the Lsu game.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 11, 2023, 12:06:44 AMOle Miss is dealing with their own situation. A soft kid got kicked off the team and recorded kiffin kicking him off the team but it seemed to backfire as most agreed with kiffin. Amazingly it got leaked the week of the biggest game at ole miss since Elis final season, more specifically the Lsu game.
I read about this - it's the 'mental health' break who didn't report or respond to the coaches calls for two weeks, right?
I think the coach could have dealt with it better but also you can't disappear for two weeks.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 10, 2023, 04:34:33 PMWith the upcoming game against __th ranked Penn State tomorrow as well as #1 ranked OSU in 3 weeks, Giants fans will have two outstanding games to watch JJ McCarthy play. I would not be surprised if the entire Giants scouting, personnel, coaching and management will be at one of those games. As a Michigan fan and someone who has watched every game he has played in, I want to offer a few tips for you to pay attention to if you catch either or both games. Please note that I am not yet 100% sold on JJ as the Giants solution. There are a lot of things I really like about him but there are things I want to see more of between now and end of season and if they make it into the College Football Playoffs.
Mechanics - JJ has gorgeous mechanics. He throws it using his large muscles in his legs, butt and hips and gets really nice hip rotation. He holds it differently than John Elway did, but I see a lot of parallels to his mechanics. That said, he engages his whole body in throws unlike say Warren Moon who just flicked his wrist and a perfectly thrown spiral with amazing touch left his arm. Since JJ uses his entire body, I worry about his ability to consistently throw the short ball as well as it needs to be thrown. In that case, it is a lighter grip and more of a flick than an entire body motion. I want to see these short throws and the results.
Strength of arm versus getting air under long passes - JJ throws ropes. Plain and simple. If there is one criticism I had earlier in his career is that on long passes, he does not get enough air under his passes so his WRs can run under them. Less touch and more howitzer. He has gotten better this year but I want to see more of it.
Scrambling to pass versus scrambling to run - here is where JJ has really changed up his game. He used to scramble to run, but now his head and eyes are always up scanning the field to make throws. I think this is one of his greatest developments. He scrambles really well to both his left and right. One stat to remember is that I think this year, JJ has a completion rate of something 92% when throwing outside the pocket.
Downfield Mentality - JJ is not a dump it off type of QB like DJ is. He is looking downfield nearly all the time. He is a big chunk yardage type of QB. Against Ohio State last year, he was only 12-24 but he threw for something like 263 yards. This year he is throwing for over 76% pass completions but he is still doing it with a downfield mindset.
Conclusion - When watching either game, I would look for these traits I mentioned rather than just look for overall stats. He is still a work in progress. Remember he is only 20 years old. He still can return to Michigan for another season and right now he said he is 50-50. I think he comes out, but who knows? Also, I would not get too high or too low on him based in either or both games. Just see if you are seeing these traits.
i have a feeling about this kid. something about a pro style offense is always a plus. with a head coach thats had lots of nfl experience and success. also- we wouldnt have to potentially mortgage the future to move up to get him. lets see how things shake out in april. but we might be able to trade down, get more capital, and still grab him. i think that would be ideal.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 11, 2023, 08:48:43 AMi have a feeling about this kid. something about a pro style offense is always a plus. with a head coach thats had lots of nfl experience and success. also- we wouldnt have to potentially mortgage the future to move up to get him. lets see how things shake out in april. but we might be able to trade down, get more capital, and still grab him. i think that would be ideal.
He's been well coached playing in a pro style offense. He is playing against a very good defense in a very hostile environment. Sounds like a Giants QB going to Phillie.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 11, 2023, 08:25:01 AMI read about this - it's the 'mental health' break who didn't report or respond to the coaches calls for two weeks, right?
I think the coach could have dealt with it better but also you can't disappear for two weeks.
He disappeared for almost a month after getting benched and they kept asking to speak with him and that the head coach wanted to speak with him and he kept ignoring them. He also didn't use any of the mental health resources available to him etc. It was a big show, the audio got leaked the day ole miss counter filed against him. Kiffin saw it wasn't mental health and that the kid was just stirring up trouble which Is why he asks him what world he lived in.
Philosopher..
I'm glued to this one-both qbs (McCarthy/Allar). If JJ gets in done in a big spot here..kudos. :yes:
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 11, 2023, 12:05:37 PMPhilosopher..
I'm glued to this one-both qbs (McCarthy/Allar). If JJ gets in done in a big spot here..kudos. :yes:
Allar reminds me of where McCarthy was one year ago at this stage of his football career. I like him as well.
Think of this game as a Phillie - Giants game. Hostile environment, playing against a good team. How well does he manage game and make key plays and throws?
How are the decisions he makes and the reads as well?
I'm not impressed with JJ or this Allar QB.
A key flaw that I see in his game (albeit in limited film) and it's correctable to some extent is that he attempts to set up his mechanics for every pass in the pocket. At the next level, he's going to have to get many passes off in less than two seconds with a quick release with accuracy. He's not going to be able to open his stance for perfect mechanics on every play.
McAdoo was able to help Eli by changing his front foot off the snap and close his stance before release. He was getting killed when the pass rush evolution upped its game and his Oline was downgraded significantly.
Quote from: sooners56 on November 11, 2023, 12:29:26 PMI'm not impressed with JJ or this Allar QB.
What are you expecting?
Good defenses. Look for little things like reads and decisionmaking.
What is he doing wrong?
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 10, 2023, 10:05:46 PMI don't think Beck will enter the draft this season.
The number 1 high school recruit/quarterback Dylan Raiola is committed to UGA next year. He has the tools to win the job out right as a freshman next year. Weirder things have happened. Odds are he stays but perhaps he looks at next year and doesn't want to risk it.
Both teams are in slug out mode. Very little..if any..passing. Hard to evaluate anything but respect for the defenses.
At least no bogus roughing the passer calls.. :no:
Quote from: Philosophers on November 11, 2023, 01:04:47 PMWhat are you expecting?
Good defenses. Look for little things like reads and decisionmaking.
What is he doing wrong?
Expecting to see a QB that stands out against a top defense. Game plan/game play hasnt really let him throw the ball but so far only 60 yards passing. He doesn't look like an NFL QB to me. Hand off after hand off tells me team doesn't think JJ can win throwing the ball. As I wrote he throws a bad pass but gets bailed out by refs.
Michigan is a totally different team without Harbaugh on the sidelines. Whoever is calling the game is being way too conservative.
Michigan played it smart and trusted their Defense and JJ didn't do anything to hurt his team and that shows maturity. I thought Penn was foolish for going for two early.
Allar sucks and no it's not the defense. He just makes terrible passes!
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2023, 02:59:41 PMMichigan played it smart and trusted their Defense and JJ didn't do anything to hurt his team and that shows maturity. I thought Penn was foolish for going for two early.
JJ the game manager is not who the Giants need.
Quote from: sooners56 on November 11, 2023, 03:00:05 PMAllar sucks and no it's not the defense. He just makes terrible passes!
He's a first year quarterback in a defensive oriented league. He's been pretty good this year, but is going to need another year or two of starting experience to get there.
Quote from: sooners56 on November 11, 2023, 03:00:45 PMJJ the game manager is not who the Giants need.
He's not a game manager. Not his fault that the interim/game coach is scared of his own shadow. When Harbaugh was running the team he had no qualms about asking him to carry the offense when needed.
Michigan coaches certainly didn't have a ton of confidence in the QB today. They relied entirely on their defense and running game.
I'm about to watch who I think could become a great QB - Michael Penix Jr
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 11, 2023, 03:24:01 PMI'm about to watch who I think could become a great QB - Michael Penix Jr
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He's an intriguing player but he's already torn his ACL twice. Let someone else take that gamble in the first round.
Quote from: madbadger on November 11, 2023, 03:40:10 PMHe's an intriguing player but he's already torn his ACL twice. Let someone else take that gamble in the first round.
That's just it, I don't think he's going in the 1st round.
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Pac 12 defenses suck. Most of already failed playing good defenses (Nix, Penix, DJ Ug). There's a reason why they go to the pac 12. It's much easier.
As for McCarthy. There was nothing to take away. They played it ultra conservative. Saying he was good or bad is just an already biased opinion.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 11, 2023, 03:41:39 PMThat's just it, I don't think he's going in the 1st round.
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Don't care if he's available in the 6 th round. I don't want a quarterback with one foot in the grave. The position is far too important to be entrusted to a guy with that injury resume. Thanks but no thanks.
I don't get it. Look at Mccarthys numbers they are excellent. It isn't his fault that his team beats up on every team and he takes a seat by the 3rd quarter or that they didn't need to pass because their run game was destroying one of the better defenses in the country without their head coach. The kid was 7/8 today, and did everything asked of him in a win against a great school.
Quote from: sooners56 on November 11, 2023, 02:35:25 PMExpecting to see a QB that stands out against a top defense. Game plan/game play hasnt really let him throw the ball but so far only 60 yards passing. He doesn't look like an NFL QB to me. Hand off after hand off tells me team doesn't think JJ can win throwing the ball. As I wrote he throws a bad pass but gets bailed out by refs.
As I wrote in another post Michigan's OTs are their weak link. Early on Penn State's edges were successful. Michigan changed up to power run game and PSU could not stop it.
What I suggested you look for in my original post were traits.
1. He saw clock was low so he called time outs rather than not be aware and get a penalty.
2. None of his throws were bad decisions or bad throws.
3. His scrambling was very good.
4. He read defenses correctly.
Play calling by coach was way too conservative. Like I said, should not get too high or low from ine game but just focus on traits.
Giants fans looking to get some good data (either positive or negative) on McCarthy didn't get it in this game. In their biggest game of the season he only threw the ball eight times. One might call that fact a negative (we'd be drafting McCarthy, not Harbaugh), but as stated earlier he didn't do anything wrong. With that said in many games Jones didn't do anything "wrong" last year either. They just didn't lean on him that much.
I have watched McCarthy play before on numerous occasions, and while he has looked good he has never really popped off the screen for me. I'd like to see him perform at a high level in one or more of their remaining tough games this season. Ie, OSU and any playoff games.
Hard to make any evaluation off of today and that sucks. Because he hasn't played against a single other good opponent all year. I need to see a lot against Ohio State or in the playoff.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 11, 2023, 05:33:21 PMHard to make any evaluation off of today and that sucks. Because he hasn't played against a single other good opponent all year. I need to see a lot against Ohio State or in the playoff.
He played in some big games last year. Was very good in a win in OSU (in fact he was much better than Stroud in that game). He was meh in a home game against PSU (albeit they won). He was good but not elite in a playoff loss to TCU, and the TCU D was bad. I would say mixed overall but his game at OSU was clearly excellent.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 11, 2023, 05:33:21 PMHard to make any evaluation off of today and that sucks. Because he hasn't played against a single other good opponent all year. I need to see a lot against Ohio State or in the playoff.
I was disappointed by the lack of passing by Michigan. Not JJ's fault, of course,but I'd like to see him take control against Ohio State.
I understand what he did last year. But to take a guy top 5, you need to see if he took a jump. Can't judge that off what he's done this year.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 11, 2023, 06:02:44 PMHe played in some big games last year. Was very good in a win in OSU (in fact he was much better than Stroud in that game). He was meh in a home game against PSU (albeit they won). He was good but not elite in a playoff loss to TCU, and the TCU D was bad. I would say mixed overall but his game at OSU was clearly excellent.
I don't think McCarthy is too 5 regardless. But he could be someone at the end of round 1 to trade back into if we don't get a guy with our first pick.
Drew Allar on the other hand? Needs to transfer immediately. He's being ruined by Franklin and that offense.
I guarantee he's not available at the end of the round. I predict 4 QBs go in the top 10.
Caleb
Maye
McCarthy
Daniels
Nix and Penix may go fairly high as well.
Quote from: JT39 on November 11, 2023, 06:39:38 PMI don't think McCarthy is too 5 regardless. But he could be someone at the end of round 1 to trade back into if we don't get a guy with our first pick.
Drew Allar on the other hand? Needs to transfer immediately. He's being ruined by Franklin and that offense.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 11, 2023, 06:46:43 PMI guarantee he's not available at the end of the round. I predict 4 QBs go in the top 10.
Caleb
Maye
McCarthy
Daniels
Nix and Penix may go fairly high as well.
I agree. Traits and decision making are heavily factored in by NFL teams. Early on, PSU beat Michigan around the edges so Michigan's coaches decided to run the ball and PSU could not stop it. That's not on JJ, but rather the HC. Maybe if JJ was on another team, that HC would have chosen to chip the edge rushers and let him sling it around.