Big Blue Huddle

Daniel Jones is in his fifth year on the Giants, and his season is over. While it seems almost 100% certain he will be on the team next year due to the seeming impossibility of anyone wanting to take on his contract, it is unclear that he will ever take another regular season snap for the Giants again. Either way, his days as a Giant seem numbered, and it is certainly possible he may never play for us again.

Would you label Daniel Jones a confirmed bust at this point? Why or why not?

I think if this were a team we were looking in from the outside, it would be an unequivocal yes.

There have been issues around line and supporting cast yet his best season of 3200 air yards, 15 passing TDs, 700 rushing yard and a further 7 TDs probably can't be viewed as an elite season. He's had little help today but Taylor looked slightly better when he came in this season so I don't think he was worth either the 6th pick or the subsequent extension.

It's not all on him but he's not played well enough to make things better either and that's what you want from a "franchise" QB. Look at the first throw last week that he airmailed - WtF was that?

I'm hopeful (and thankful) the giants are finally moving on from him. He doesn't produce enough nor can stay on the field.

The contract, with the now-accepted two year out, is an aberration, which puts Schoen under a ton of pressure too. 

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:21:15 AMAny member who answers "yes" MUST ALSO believe our management team and/or head coach are also busts.

Otherwise, a "yes" vote makes no sense since THEY signed the bust to a multi-year contract just this year.

So I'll ask anyone who sees this to also address THAT issue.

Bob

They gave him a two year prove it deal while the team was rebuilding. Schoen protected the team and he clearly had reservations. And I do believe that Mara injected his input, otherwise he may not have even been signed.

https://x.com/marcus3255/status/1723683598618755158?s=20

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2023, 08:52:09 AMhttps://x.com/marcus3255/status/1723683598618755158?s=20

Rich: So you finally realized it's better to just re-post viewpoints than to write your own and come under DIRECT attack?

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Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 08:56:07 AMRich: So you finally realized it's better to just re-post viewpoints than to write your own and come under DIRECT attack?

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Leave Rich alone, Bob. He's still licking his wounds.

Just kidding.

I think at this point, Rich is 50/50 and would accept any outcome.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 12, 2023, 09:01:11 AMLeave Rich alone, Bob. He's still licking his wounds.

Just kidding.

I think at this point, Rich is 50/50 and would accept any outcome.

Ed: If I didn't agree 100 percent with your post, I would not have ventured into "joke" territory. Bob

No, he's not a bust. He played for the team, contributed, won a few games for them (against bad teams mostly), so I would say he just wasn't nearly as good as assumed for being drafted so high. That doesn't make him a bust. To me, a bust barely would see the field. Zach Wilson is coming close to being a bust. Josh Rosen was a bust.

Quote from: katkavage on November 12, 2023, 09:42:55 AMNo, he's not a bust. He played for the team, contributed, won a few games for them (against bad teams mostly), so I would say he just wasn't nearly as good as assumed for being drafted so high. That doesn't make him a bust. To me, a bust barely would see the field. Zach Wilson is coming close to being a bust. Josh Rosen was a bust.

When I created this thread/poll, I did it knowing that people's definition of the word "bust" would vary. And hence I didn't see the poll being that one-sided (albeit I will admit I expected a majority to vote YES).

But back to the word "bust" in the sports sense, to me it means any player who has significant promise entering the league and falls very significantly short of expectations. In my opinion, it is fair to say that about Jones. However, I respect that some don't feel that way, and I certainly would agree that players like Josh Rosen are more cut and dry examples.

QuoteRich: So you finally realized it's better to just re-post viewpoints than to write your own and come under DIRECT attack?

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Bob,

I appreciate the joke, although I always post Twitter responses here.  Frankly, I don't have an answer to the question posed.  I mean, it's pretty clear Jones was a starter his 4 years, won a playoff game with subpar talent, and got signed to a second contract.  So, it's sort of difficult to wrap one's head around the question as the answer seems pretty apparent.

However, it appears the Giants are now likely to draft a new QB.  How the Giants got to that point in less than half a season when it appeared that the Giants had their franchise QB (who looked great in training camp and a brief PS appearance) and were ready to compete is a rather complex topic that doesn't lend itself to this rather simplistic question that creates a rigid framing that doesn't allow one to explore the complexities of the issue.

At some point in the future, I will share my thoughts on this issue, but I am simply not ready.  I am still processing and considering the events that happened and I don't feel I am fully prepared to lay out what I think happened and why.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2023, 10:04:05 AMI appreciate the joke, although I always post Twitter responses here.

But seldom without at least a few words of commentary. I was waiting for one just like that (no commentary, and the quote actually answered the exact question asked in the title) before I could attempt to make that particular joke (as you probably know, it's tough to be funny in person... and even more difficult in print).

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2023, 10:04:05 AMAt some point in the future, I will share my thoughts on this issue, but I am simply not ready.  I am still processing and considering the events that happened and I don't feel I am fully prepared to lay out what I think happened and why.

Me too.

Bob

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 12, 2023, 10:04:05 AMBob,

I appreciate the joke, although I always post Twitter responses here.  Frankly, I don't have an answer to the question posed.  I mean, it's pretty clear Jones was a starter his 4 years, won a playoff game with subpar talent, and got signed to a second contract.  So, it's sort of difficult to wrap one's head around the question as the answer seems pretty apparent.

However, it appears the Giants are now likely to draft a new QB.  How the Giants got to that point in less than half a season when it appeared that the Giants had their franchise QB (who looked great in training camp and a brief PS appearance) and were ready to compete is a rather complex topic that doesn't lend itself to this rather simplistic question that creates a rigid framing that doesn't allow one to explore the complexities of the issue.

At some point in the future, I will share my thoughts on this issue, but I am simply not ready.  I am still processing and considering the events that happened and I don't feel I am fully prepared to lay out what I think happened and why.

Rich,

A couple of things:

(1) As I mentioned in a different post in this thread, answers to the OP will vary in part due to people's varying definition's of the term "bust" (as it applies to athletes). I appreciate you have your precise definition, but others may view the term differently. If it were as cut and dry and as you are suggesting, the polling responses would be overwhelming skewed towards NO, which, so far at least, they are not.

(2) The OP question may be simplistic and straightforward in nature, but many OP thread questions are simplistic and designed to lead to a more detailed and complex discussion in the thread. That is the intention here, and some members have already begun to respond in a way that lends itself to that objective.

Based on the expectations coming into the league, I would say his expectations were not high. Many claimed he was over-drafted. Based on the fact that he won a playoff game coming off a decent season and then received a 40 million-dollar contract, then he surely busted this year. That expectation was that he was looking to be that Franchise QB and his play and injuries negated that expectation.

In the true sense of the term Bust, he was not in the category of a Rosen, Akili Smith, Harrington or Ryan Leaf.

I believe that in relationship to the investment of draft pick and subsequent contract, that he IS a bust.

His two biggest weaknesses in my view (his pocket awareness and ability to find the best choice in his progressions) both paralyzed his growth and cost him time due to injury.

To address Bob's follow up question as to whether the FO is also a bust due to the contract, I will answer YES to that too. But with the proviso that there is one common thread connecting to the draft pick and the contract and that would be the Maras.

I do blame Schoen and Daboll for not pushing back harder on the contract extension, as I'm not convinced that either of them were truly sold on DJ.

Watching Daboll coaching him this year and his reaction to DJ's injuries influenced me into believing that he was done with DJ.

Those are my thoughts.


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he was a bust when he got here. he doesn't have the vision for this level


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Picked too high but i wouldnt say a bust
At least we got a playoff win
That he actually caused us to.win
Not many players can say that
I didnt mind the 2 year signing
We had to be sure
Now we are
Time to move on but will it be bad for a rookie to learn under him or are those days over
Look at J love it sure didnt help.him

Good question, Dave. I think the meaning of the term "bust" has changed over the years. And as you said, people will define it in whatever way suits them. When I was a kid, guys like Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple weren't labeled busts. They were called below average or bad players but they were starters for a significant time so they weren't really busts. But these days they are called busts. Guys like Thomas Lewis and Derek Brown were busts because they couldn't earn their way on the field or keep a starting job.

Now part of that is in this era first round picks are handed starting jobs without earning them. But we still see examples of guys like Deandre Baker and Kadarius Toney who are gifted starting jobs they didn't earn but prove themselves to be busts anyway because they are so lousy in character and performance that they force decision makers to give up on them quickly.

The QB position is a little more complicated to assess because it's the keystone to everything else. It's hard to be an effective QB if you aren't able to elevate the play of your teammates.

By that measure, Jones is a bust. He elevates no one and he arguably makes his teammates look worse out there. But he has held a starting job for years so that puts him in the category with guys like Flowers and Apple, not with Baker and Toney.

If people want to say he's not a bust because he's been a starter, then that's fair. But in my view they'd also have to agree that Flowers and Apple weren't busts. Jones could run fast and he tried hard, so defenses had to account for him, but beyond that he didn't consistently do any of the things you'd expect from a higher tier starting QB.

To me he's a bust simply because the organization and their compliant beat writers and social media personalities tried to sell him as a franchise QB, which he's not and never has been. That's not his fault but sometimes players are a victim of their circumstances. If he was a 3rd round pick like Hostetler and made relatively little money, I have no doubt he'd be viewed in a more favorable light. He'd be thought of as an overachiever. A guy with limited talent who gave the team everything he had. But he took the money so it is what it is.

Someone raised the question of Daboll and Schoen's complicity. Yes, both men along with ownership and anyone else involved are complicit in creating the fairytale of Daniel Jones as a franchise QB who was worth franchise QB money (even if only for a 2 year commitment). That 2 years, on top of the 4 years of his rookie contract, have left this team in QB hell for what will be 6 years all because no one with any power in the organization was willing to call a spade a spade. You don't make your team better through public relations and creating a fairytale that your QB has skills that aren't there. He was never anything more than a fast guy with a ton of heart who was physically fragile and mentally overwhelmed.

In my book the contract combined with his draft position makes him a bust and yes, leadership is more than 50% to blame for this debacle.

Horrible starting record (22-36-1). Unimpressive individual results. Injury-plagued.

Good guy, but a bust all the same.

No.  But the Giants are, and have been for 10 years, a bust.

It is a yes. And it is on him. Not on others. Teams laugh at how it is to still fool him with trap coverages. He's terrible. Dave Brown part 2.

Total bust

No 6 overall pick totally over drafted by the worst Giants GM

Injury prone, slow processor, indecisive thrower

Only distinguishing trait was running

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Any member who answers "yes" MUST ALSO believe our management team and/or head coach are also busts.

Otherwise, a "yes" vote makes no sense since THEY signed the bust to a multi-year contract just this year.

So I'll ask anyone who sees this to also address THAT issue.

Bob

If you draft a Qb in the top 10 and he ends up being a backup I don't see how he can be anything other than a bust.

Brock Osweiler
TJ Yates
Tim Tebow
Mike Tomczak
David Woodley


The list of garbage Qbs to win a playoff game is longer than that but just the ones I saw with a quick search.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 01:56:34 PMAny member who answers "yes" MUST ALSO believe our management team and/or head coach are also busts.

Otherwise, a "yes" vote makes no sense since THEY signed the bust to a multi-year contract just this year.

So I'll ask anyone who sees this to also address THAT issue.

Bob

I'll gladly answer it as I've had the same opinion since they signed him to the extension. 

From my perspective he was always a bridge Qb and the way the FO worked out his deal you could see it. Since the day they announced I thought they were buying themselves time to continue to build out the roster with the intent of grabbing their guy in 2024.

There was no one to choose from in free agency and no needle mover within their reach in the draft. So it was either Jones, Minshew, Brissett, or Mayfield and after last season they chose the devil they knew over the one they didnt.

The problem was that most thought the extension meant that Jones was the answer when he wasn't, he was just the best option at the time based on last year, to get them through until they could get their guy.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 12, 2023, 01:59:39 PMIf you draft a Qb in the top 10 and he ends up being a backup I don't see how he can be anything other than a bust.

J: I think that's a solid point. We probably view busts about the same in that regard.

Reworded, it says a guy is either a bargain, money well-invested, or a bust.

The difference between all of us here is more likely WHEN to determine it's time to "give up" on a guy.

That's the hard part, and reasonable minds can disagree, I suppose.

I'd rather wait to see when it becomes clear the Giants have given up on Jones as a starter (which was obviously what they drafted him to be) and then, with 20/20 hindsight, put a final label on the pick. To me, they have NOT given up on Jones until they announce someone other than Jones is the Giants' starting QB (in a situation where it is clear there are no other factors involved and their intention is to make a permanent change).

Bob

PS. I could have written this post with eight short words.... What's the hurry to label Jones a bust?

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 01:56:34 PMAny member who answers "yes" MUST ALSO believe our management team and/or head coach are also busts.

Otherwise, a "yes" vote makes no sense since THEY signed the bust to a multi-year contract just this year.

So I'll ask anyone who sees this to also address THAT issue.

Bob

Jones has had 5 years to prove himself. Schoen and Daboll have been in their positions for 2 years. (Neal is more their bust than Jones at this point... but if we give him 5 years like DJ, he's still got ample time to turn it around.) And I think it's very fair to say the Jones deal was a compromise with Mara given it was not some unequivocal, full-throated support for Jones having a reasonable out at 2 years.

So to answer your question, no, they are not busts. The success of whatever QB they draft this coming year will do far more to inform an answer to your question than a short-term deal for a QB thrust on them by an interventionist owner and drafted by an abominable GM.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 12, 2023, 02:12:06 PMJones has had 5 years to prove himself. Schoen and Daboll have been in their positions for 2 years. (Neal is more their bust than Jones at this point... but if we give him 5 years like DJ, he's still got ample time to turn it around.) And I think it's very fair to say the Jones deal was a compromise with Mara given it was not some unequivocal, full-throated support for Jones having a reasonable out at 2 years.

So to answer your question, no, they are not busts. The success of whatever QB they draft this coming year will do far more to inform an answer to your question than a short-term deal for a QB thrust on them by an interventionist owner and drafted by an abominable GM.

H-T: Yes. That's about the size of things, IMO. Bob

I voted 'Yes' and wanted to elaborate but @H-Town G-Fan spoke to the exact points I wanted to make about Jones and Schoen/Daboll.

I don't think he really ever had a chance. He was overdrafted to play in an offensive system whos architect was immediately fired, and then the situation got BAD

Quote from: TONKA56 on November 12, 2023, 06:22:18 PMI don't think he really ever had a chance. He was overdrafted to play in an offensive system whos architect was immediately fired, and then the situation got bad.

No QB who gets picked near the top of the draft is walking into a good near-term situation. Some still succeed. Others don't. Jones didn't.

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 12, 2023, 01:56:34 PMAny member who answers "yes" MUST ALSO believe our management team and/or head coach are also busts.

Otherwise, a "yes" vote makes no sense since THEY signed the bust to a multi-year contract just this year.

So I'll ask anyone who sees this to also address THAT issue.

Bob

I'm not impressed by Schoen or Daboll so far.

Quote from: AYM on November 12, 2023, 06:58:39 PMI'm not impressed by Schoen or Daboll so far.

The bloom is definitely off the rose.

His offensive line stunk, no Barkley, Wrs weren't getting open. Plus two other WBs couldn't get success with this roster. I know Jones made mistakes, but give him a solid line and see what he can do.

Quote from: McGIANTS on November 12, 2023, 07:36:07 PMHis offensive line stunk, no Barkley, Wrs weren't getting open. Plus two other WBs couldn't get success with this roster. I know Jones made mistakes, but give him a solid line and see what he can do.

We've been saying that for 5 years.

He's a QB, drafted 6th. In my mind any QB drafted that high who doesn't become a franchise player is a bust.

I just do not know what happened to the player we saw last year. I thought for sure he was ready to take the next step. But he regressed and the Giants can waste any more time on him.

Making the playoffs with Jones was a miracle. Thinking this season is coaching is irrational.

Year 3

Game against the Chiefs on Monday night.
I believe it was the first play of the game when he hits their DL or LB on a quick slant.

It was then I truly believed that between the snap and the release of the ball there was some serious confusion going on in his QB head.

Another game we should have won. 

HUGE BUST, helping to set us back another 5 years.

Quote from: SlotCorner on November 12, 2023, 08:07:16 PMHe's a QB, drafted 6th. In my mind any QB drafted that high who doesn't become a franchise player is a bust.

I just do not know what happened to the player we saw last year. I thought for sure he was ready to take the next step. But he regressed and the Giants can waste any more time on him.

Last season was a mirage, yes he didn't turn it over but he didn't light it up either. The fan base was so starved for good Qb play that they acted like 3200 and 15 were great, when it was just meh.

I don't think any QB can work under this conditions. It's a terrible situation and yes Shoen is part of the blame. They were selling us the off season moves they all fell apart. The players with injuries and quite frankly they got worse. Afte that 6-1 start Daboll has been trash. The team doesn't have next man up ready. It's an awful team. You can blame Gettleman but Shoen and Daboll do get now the majority of the blame. It's their team. You had a draft free agency and the results have been terrible.

The moves fell apart mostly because of Jones. Whose fault is it that he constantly throws into trap coverage. Whose fault is it when he miss Hyatt wide open.

Mr. Daniel Jones' value to the Giants can be accurately measured by the amount of money another NFL team's willing to pay for him as a starting QB. 'Nuf said.

Meanwhile, Mr. Thomas Devito appears to have that key characteristic that's required to be the Giant's QB: indestructability. The offensive* front five require nothing less.

It was nice to see the Giants in blue for a change last night.

Go, Big Blue!

* Both meanings intended.

Quote from: Torus34 on November 13, 2023, 05:36:23 AMMr. Daniel Jones' value to the Giants can be accurately measured by the amount of money another NFL team's willing to pay for him as a starting QB. 'Nuf said.

Meanwhile, Mr. Thomas Devito appears to have that key characteristic that's required to be the Giant's QB: indestructability. The offensive* front five require nothing less.

It was nice to see the Giants in blue for a change last night.



Go, Big Blue!

* Both meanings intended.

So after 1 start and 2 relief appearances you have come to the conclusion that DeVito will never get injured. Cool story.

Quote from: Giantleap56 on November 12, 2023, 10:29:37 PMI don't think any QB can work under this conditions. It's a terrible situation and yes Shoen is part of the blame. They were selling us the off season moves they all fell apart. The players with injuries and quite frankly they got worse. Afte that 6-1 start Daboll has been trash. The team doesn't have next man up ready. It's an awful team. You can blame Gettleman but Shoen and Daboll do get now the majority of the blame. It's their team. You had a draft free agency and the results have been terrible.

Tyrod while he got injured had no problem being productive, were Jones couldn't.

Quote from: T200 on November 12, 2023, 07:42:52 PMWe've been saying that for 5 years.

And were told we were just making excuses.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 13, 2023, 09:53:22 AMAnd were told we were just making excuses.

Speaking only for myself, I've always said it was possible to evaluate Jones even without a decent supporting cast. Some things were so obvious even back then.