This in only my opinion...and we all know what that means
I'd move Evan Neal to LG next to Thomas. Neal excelled on the left side of the line in college, so his natural instincts fit well on the line (he could also be the backup LT where he excelled in college). I don't think he's quick enough with his feet to play tackle at the NFL level at RT, besides possibly backup LT, but he's talented and has rare size, strength, and athleticism...just maybe not a perfect fit on the right side and as a RT. We probably should have drafted Charlie Cross in the 2021 draft who was not a bulldozer/run blocking type of OT, but heads above all others in pass protection. He only has a PFF grade of 64 for his first two years, but he's done pretty well in Seattle
We need an agile RT who can pass protect at the NFL level. This is a loaded draft class for tackles, none better than Fashanu, but someone like Kingsley Suamataia [6-6 / 324] is incredibly agile and quick, yet is ranked 10th among OTs, and still in the top 30 overall (tells you just how stacked this years OT class is). From Walter Football: "In 2022, Suamataia transferred to BYU, where he broke out, including not allowing a sack all season. Suamataia has shocking speed and athleticism for an edge blocker of his size. Another big season could make Suamataia a high first-rounder in his draft class." Walter Football has Suamataia ranked 2nd best OT behind Mims, and ahead of Alt and Fashanu https://walterfootball.com/draft2024OT.php
But look at how absolutely stacked the OT class is: https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OT/1/2024 and
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2024/consensus-big-board-2024?pos=OT
This is also a stacked class of OGs, and we could probably get a Zac Zinter, Tate Ratledge, or Christian Mahogany in the first three rounds (https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OG/1/2024)
LT Thomas / LG Neal / C Schmitz / RG Zinter / RT Suamataia
With such a loaded class at OT and OG, it would inexcusable for the Giants to not finally fix that line!
Jolly: Good post. However, I don't think they'll move Neal to tackle.
I believe they already stated so in one or more press conferences, although the question was not asked directly.
Rather, reporters asked questions generally about "moving players around" on the OL and that point was more or less volunteered by Daboll or one of the other coaches. I don't usually trust my memory on stuff like this, but I do seem to remember the situation I just described.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 14, 2023, 01:00:47 PMJolly: Good post. However, I don't think they'll move Neal to tackle. (I think you meant guard)
I believe they already stated so in one or more press conferences, although the question was not asked directly.
Rather, reporters asked questions generally about "moving players around" on the OL and that point was more or less volunteered by Daboll or one of the other coaches. I don't usually trust my memory on stuff like this, but I do seem to remember the situation I just described.
Bob
Quite a few examples of highly rated OTs failing in the NFL, but carve out a decent career as an OG (Robert Gallery comes to mind)
If the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach. Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well. They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach. Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well. They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.
I meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:19:52 PMI meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind
For me, that's the only thing I am focused on. Get a proper O-line coach in here and give him what he asks for, and suddenly, after a decade, we could stop talking about the offensive line.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 12:56:37 PMThis in only my opinion...and we all know what that means
I'd move Evan Neal to LG next to Thomas. Neal excelled on the left side of the line in college, so his natural instincts fit well on the line (he could also be the backup LT where he excelled in college). I don't think he's quick enough with his feet to play tackle at the NFL level at RT, besides possibly backup LT, but he's talented and has rare size, strength, and athleticism...just maybe not a perfect fit on the right side and as a RT. We probably should have drafted Charlie Cross in the 2021 draft who was not a bulldozer/run blocking type of OT, but heads above all others in pass protection. He only has a PFF grade of 64 for his first two years, but he's done pretty well in Seattle
We need an agile RT who can pass protect at the NFL level. This is a loaded draft class for tackles, none better than Fashanu, but someone like Kingsley Suamataia [6-6 / 324] is incredibly agile and quick, yet is ranked 10th among OTs, and still in the top 30 overall (tells you just how stacked this years OT class is). From Walter Football: "In 2022, Suamataia transferred to BYU, where he broke out, including not allowing a sack all season. Suamataia has shocking speed and athleticism for an edge blocker of his size. Another big season could make Suamataia a high first-rounder in his draft class." Walter Football has Suamataia ranked 2nd best OT behind Mims, and ahead of Alt and Fashanu https://walterfootball.com/draft2024OT.php
But look at how absolutely stacked the OT class is: https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OT/1/2024 and
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2024/consensus-big-board-2024?pos=OT
This is also a stacked class of OGs, and we could probably get a Zac Zinter, Tate Ratledge, or Christian Mahogany in the first three rounds (https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/positions/OG/1/2024)
LT Thomas / LG Neal / C Schmitz / RG Zinter / RT Suamataia
With such a loaded class at OT and OG, it would inexcusable for the Giants to not finally fix that line!
You're hired!
Actually, you may want to rethink Neal at LG. That's the Guard that pulls. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Neal translates to Guard in Pass Protection. Too slow off the snap, slow feet and hands. I do think he gets another year at RT. Which may be a waste of time. Unfortunately, he should be a good RT but I think a lot of it is mental. He's had a lot of injuries, some nagging and that has held him back from getting reps.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 01:53:23 PMYou're hired!
Actually, you may want to rethink Neal at LG. That's the Guard that pulls. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think Neal translates to Guard in Pass Protection. Too slow off the snap, slow feet and hands. I do think he gets another year at RT. Which may be a waste of time. Unfortunately, he should be a good RT but I think a lot of it is mental. He's had a lot of injuries, some nagging and that has held him back from getting reps.
Ed: IMO Neal's feet are his main problem. I'm unaware of any guards who pull (and do it well) being anything less than the type of Dancing Elephants a former Giants coach always talked about. In short, Neal can't be a pulling guard, and there's a much better chance he'll eventually become a better-than-average RT. Bob
A couple of weeks ago, I reviewed NFL All Pro OTs going back something like 8-10 years in the NFL. The one thing that I noticed is that the vast, vast majority or 315 - 320 pounds, not 335-340 pounds on 6'6" of height. At that height and weight, OTs look tall and lean which I think makes them much more able to explode out of their stance rather than say a 6'6" 340 pound OT.
I used to be a big proponent of bigger the better, but with the quickness of NFL edges, it is much more necessary to have an OT who is quick because not only do they get to where they have to go faster, but it gives them time to settle into their position to deliver max technique.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 14, 2023, 02:58:12 PMA couple of weeks ago, I reviewed NFL All Pro OTs going back something like 8-10 years in the NFL. The one thing that I noticed is that the vast, vast majority or 315 - 320 pounds, not 335-340 pounds on 6'6" of height. At that height and weight, OTs look tall and lean which I think makes them much more able to explode out of their stance rather than say a 6'6" 340 pound OT.
I used to be a big proponent of bigger the better, but with the quickness of NFL edges, it is much more necessary to have an OT who is quick because not only do they get to where they have to go faster, but it gives them time to settle into their position to deliver max technique.
Good observation. He's also top heavy and leans at times. The question becomes why didn't they put him on a training and diet regiment in the off season? They can't do it in season because of the carbs they need for energy and stamina. Did you ever see what these guys eat in a week? lol
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 14, 2023, 03:29:35 PMGood observation. He's also top heavy and leans at times. The question becomes why didn't they put him on a training and diet regiment in the off season? They can't do it in season because of the carbs they need for energy and stamina. Did you ever see what these guys eat in a week? lol
I don't think the teams are connecting the dots on ideal height/weight and see many of these guys dominating in college at their weight so assume they can do same in NFL.
I have been blown away by the size difference of NFL edges who make contact with Neal and with better technique can either move him or get past him. If he can't get into proper position at the right time and avoid things like that "lean" that you mentioned, he will continue to get eaten up. I also wonder as I have not paid enough attention but how well does he do anticipating the count and moving as soon as the ball is hiked. Another thing maybe he is failing at.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:19:52 PMI meant to add, "a new offensive line coach who knows what he's doing", but I have three things going at once and coming back and forth to my computer, I forget to add all that was on my mind
Get Baldy, if he is willing.. he probably makes a good O coach too.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 14, 2023, 03:51:28 PMI don't think the teams are connecting the dots on ideal height/weight and see many of these guys dominating in college at their weight so assume they can do same in NFL.
I have been blown away by the size difference of NFL edges who make contact with Neal and with better technique can either move him or get past him. If he can't get into proper position at the right time and avoid things like that "lean" that you mentioned, he will continue to get eaten up. I also wonder as I have not paid enough attention but how well does he do anticipating the count and moving as soon as the ball is hiked. Another thing maybe he is failing at.
Bobby Skinner does an excellent oline analysis and they do a question and answer podcast. Maybe check out his take on Neal and pose the question.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach. Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well. They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.
100% Rich.
We're supposed to have top quality talent evaluators and in fact they've hit on many players in different positions over the past 2 drafts.
So how is Neal such a GIGANTIC miss?!
My answer is the OL Coach as I'm sure 1) position coaches evaluation of draft talent is strongly considered and 2) if they're drafted that high there needs to be a business plan showing an ROI for the team...who is heavily involved in building the plan? The position coach.
We need a much better OL Coach. If we did, we may be able to function with the talent on the roster....especially if we find a QB with pocket awareness and playmaking ability.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 14, 2023, 04:41:27 PM100% Rich.
We're supposed to have top quality talent evaluators and in fact they've hit on many players in different positions over the past 2 drafts.
So how is Neal such a GIGANTIC miss?!
My answer is the OL Coach as I'm sure 1) position coaches evaluation of draft talent is strongly considered and <B>2) if they're drafted that high there needs to be a business plan showing an ROI for the team...who is heavily involved in building the plan? The position coach.</B>
We need a much better OL Coach. If we did, we may be able to function with the talent on the roster....especially if we find a QB with pocket awareness and playmaking ability.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I couldn't agree more with you, Andrew, on the investment vs. ROI perspective because we're talking about pick #7 in the draft to address a critical need. OK, with the pick, you've addressed the need, but you don't have the strategy, business objectives or the right staff to execute to those objectives and strategies??? Really?
I believe the boss over Football Operations had better take an honest assessment of the situation or, if that's not possible, then bring in an independent assessment team to tell him, objectively, with no bias, here's where you're not getting it, and here's some recommendations on how you can approach the situation to address it.
Schoen has invested a lot of blood, sweat and tears, as has Daboll at this point, and there's no doubt they've developed bias around their product, to some degree, at this point. So, maybe an independent assessment might be just the thing they both need at this point to gauge what's going well, what's not that should be scrapped and what can be a good thing if modified with an action plan. Something like that can help vector them back on track and, most important, rebuild confidence in what they are doing.
We are millions of voices telling them what to do. I'm glad I'm not them having to hear all of our opinions, including mine, whether they make sense or not.
Peace!
I'm going to echo a previous poster's sentiment. Get a good OL coach. That's where it starts. This team can keep pumping in resources to their line, but if they can't coach 'em up and develop them, it's a waste. I do believe Neal can be salvaged in to a respectable player, but it has to start with the coach. And secondarily, the front office has to do a better job of talent evaluation in the later rounds. You can find quality OL in the 4th rd and later. That's where your money is made. For people to say they need to go OL, again, in the 1st round or 2nd rd, that's grocery shopping while hungry. Go around the league and see where most of these guys were drafted. They weren't top 10. There was a chart online (sorry, don't remember) that showed the teams that got the most bang for their buck regarding OL play and their draft status. I don't have to tell you where the Giants placed. And unfortunately, this has been an issue for a good decade now and it's time to stop.
Quote from: fromthebside on November 16, 2023, 09:46:31 AMI'm going to echo a previous poster's sentiment. Get a good OL coach. That's where it starts. This team can keep pumping in resources to their line, but if they can't coach 'em up and develop them, it's a waste. I do believe Neal can be salvaged in to a respectable player, but it has to start with the coach. And secondarily, the front office has to do a better job of talent evaluation in the later rounds. You can find quality OL in the 4th rd and later. That's where your money is made. For people to say they need to go OL, again, in the 1st round or 2nd rd, that's grocery shopping while hungry. Go around the league and see where most of these guys were drafted. They weren't top 10. There was a chart online (sorry, don't remember) that showed the teams that got the most bang for their buck regarding OL play and their draft status. I don't have to tell you where the Giants placed. And unfortunately, this has been an issue for a good decade now and it's time to stop.
Good post. Agree with all. We have used plenty of first and second round capital on O line. Where we have been awful is in the rounds 3-5 range, which is where you make your money drafting for IOL. Our guards have been wretched for years now. But just because that's the case does not mean we should be using a first or second round pick on O line yet again.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 14, 2023, 04:41:27 PM100% Rich.
We're supposed to have top quality talent evaluators and in fact they've hit on many players in different positions over the past 2 drafts.
So how is Neal such a GIGANTIC miss?!
My answer is the OL Coach as I'm sure 1) position coaches evaluation of draft talent is strongly considered and 2) if they're drafted that high there needs to be a business plan showing an ROI for the team...who is heavily involved in building the plan? The position coach.
We need a much better OL Coach. If we did, we may be able to function with the talent on the roster....especially if we find a QB with pocket awareness and playmaking ability.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Due to the nature of the position (very complex motions to evaluate), no assistant coach is more involved in scouting the draft talent than the offensive line coaches.
I remember when Alex Gibb was the OL coach of the Denver Broncos. They were such a versatile OL in blocking styles that the team had this long run of successful RB almost all of whom were drafted in the 3rd round or later.
That is what a great OL coach can do.
Fire Bobby Johnson immediately.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on November 14, 2023, 01:04:11 PMQuite a few examples of highly rated OTs failing in the NFL, but carve out a decent career as an OG (Robert Gallery comes to mind)
justin pugh also comes to mind.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach. Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well. They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.
Agreed. didnt seattle have all backups playing against us, yet still looked functional? thats just good coaching. something we do not have.
Quote from: GloryDays on November 14, 2023, 03:52:22 PMGet Baldy, if he is willing.. he probably makes a good O coach too.
He seems to have a soft spot for the giants too. good analyst, who knows how good he would be as a coach though.
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 16, 2023, 04:14:04 PMHe seems to have a soft spot for the giants too. good analyst, who knows how good he would be as a coach though.
Baldy seems to be really good at reinserting pride for the Giants Blue, in addition to be creative and being demanding for each player's accountability.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2023, 01:14:46 PMIf the Giants want to fix their O-line once and for all, they will find a really good (not just adequate) offensive line coach. Teams with great O-line coaches not only have good lines, but they are also the teams that tend to draft and develop O-line talent well. They will usually have a few quality O-linemen that were day two or day three picks.
Pretty much what I've been saying. It is scandalous how they put so much in the way of resources, in both fa and draft choices, and have so little to show for it.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 16, 2023, 11:26:31 PMPretty much what I've been saying. It is scandalous how they put so much in the way of resources, in both fa and draft choices, and have so little to show for it.
Worse, that wasted draft capital could have been used to add talent to other parts of the team.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 16, 2023, 11:26:31 PMPretty much what I've been saying. It is scandalous how they put so much in the way of resources, in both fa and draft choices, and have so little to show for it.
They had a better chance of landing one after last season. This organization is a Coach killer. Who would want to come here with a noose around Daboll's neck for what might be a one year gig?
Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 16, 2023, 04:11:49 PMjustin pugh also comes to mind.
I don' think comparing Gallery to Pugh are the same. Gallery was drafted in the top 5 and was expected to be a pancake blocking RT who completely failed. Similar to Tony Mandarich who also made a comeback at guard. Pugh was a jackknife lineman who was able to lineup wherever there was a need. The year he switched to Guard was also the year Flowers was drafted.