Big Blue Huddle

Well Eli thinks DJ should stay.

Eli is only talking about next season because he's already under contract.

I actually voted for "Eli knows more than fans about QB development" because that is a 100% true statement, and I would never be convinced otherwise.

What I don't know is exactly what Eli meant. If "bringing Jones back" simply refers to 2024, then I don't think that's much of a statement because that is clearly the only realistic thing they can do given his contract. Does Eli know how prohibitive it is to cut him after this season? Does he understand that it would be basically impossible to trade Jones with that contract?

If all Eli meant was that they should not do anything other than bring him back for the year 2024, then this is a complete non-story.

If on the other hand Eli is suggesting that the Giants commit to Jones long-term, which would involve restructuring his contract to get that $47mm 2024 cap hit down but would commit them to more years with him, then that is a horse of a different color. But I don't think he said that.

Here is what Eli Manning said:


"They saw Daniel Jones, they were around him. They had him for a year and they trusted that, 'Hey, this is a kid that has a bunch of upside,' " Manning told Andrew Marchand and John Ourand, referring to the new Giants regime that started in 2022. "He's still in the first year of the offense, played extremely well. He can run, he's tough. He can make the throws. Just unfortunately, this was a tough year with injuries. ... And so, I think you still got to trust your quarterback.

"He's going to come back, he's going to be healthy. He works hard. He's a great teammate. He does all the intangible things really, really well, and I think they got to trust him, can put some guys, get help around them and continue to grow with these teams. I think when you sign your key guys to contracts, Saquon [Barkley], Dexter Lawrence, Daniel ... you put these guys, you keep adding guys around them and you don't just say, hey, switch it up right away because you have one bad year."

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 16, 2023, 02:43:00 PMI actually voted for "Eli knows more than fans about QB development" because that is a 100% true statement, and I would never be convinced otherwise.

What I don't know is exactly what Eli meant. If "bringing Jones back" simply refers to 2024, then I don't think that's much of a statement because that is clearly the only realistic thing they can do given his contract. Does Eli know how prohibitive it is to cut him after this season? Does he understand that it would be basically impossible to trade Jones with that contract?

If all Eli meant was that they should not do anything other than bring him back for the year 2024, then this is a complete non-story.

If on the other hand Eli is suggesting that the Giants commit to Jones long-term, which would involve restructuring his contract to get that $47mm 2024 cap hit down but would commit them to more years with him, then that is a horse of a different color. But I don't think he said that.

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/11/16/eli-manning-new-york-giants-need-to-stick-with-build-around-daniel-jones/

Mara is big on taking advice from people he respects. He hired Gettleman based on Ernie Accorsi's recommendation, and Bill Belichick's recommendation of Joe Judge played a role in his hiring of him.

I just hope he allows Schoen to do whatever he thinks is the right move here. We have all seen Jones for 4.5 years. Is Eli more qualified than any fan to judge QBs? Yes he is. There are also former professional QBs who think Jones isn't very good. At the end of the day I just hope the GM is able to have the final say on this, and without aggressive "leaning" by Mara.

I actually think unless Mara overrules Schoen, Schoen will do what he thinks is right. Because quite frankly if he thinks it's wrong to go with Jones, even though that decision might placate Mara in the very short term, it won't stop Mara from firing Schoen if and when it doesn't work out. And it will also be a decision that the rest of the league watches him make, which is something else for him to think about as he may not be with the Giants for his whole working career.

The fact that it's literally impossible to trade Jones should be something that Mara and Schoen stop and think about for a moment. If it's literally impossible to move a player (without eating a huge chunk of his contract), what does that say about that player's value? You may own a house that you believe is worth $1mm, but if nobody is willing to even give you $500k for it, is it really a $1mm house?

He is being nice. Jones is a likeable guy with a persistent losing record. Eli should have been asked if the Giants should draft a QB next year.

Quote from: katkavage on November 16, 2023, 03:09:18 PMHe is being nice.

That could be. I considered that option as well although I am willing to take Eli for his word at face value since I have never known him to be untruthful before.

One thing I know for certain is that Eli and DJ are friends, or at least friendly. I have a friend who belongs to the same golf club Eli does, and he saw Jones there (as Eli's guest) at least once last summer. I'm not saying that because they played golf together it means that Eli will deliberately advise the Giants to do something they shouldn't do, but we all know Eli's personality. He's not one to really slam anybody, especially someone he knows and gets along with.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 16, 2023, 02:44:45 PMHere is what Eli Manning said:


"They saw Daniel Jones, they were around him. They had him for a year and they trusted that, 'Hey, this is a kid that has a bunch of upside,' " Manning told Andrew Marchand and John Ourand, referring to the new Giants regime that started in 2022. "He's still in the first year of the offense, played extremely well. He can run, he's tough. He can make the throws. Just unfortunately, this was a tough year with injuries. ... And so, I think you still got to trust your quarterback.

"He's going to come back, he's going to be healthy. He works hard. He's a great teammate. He does all the intangible things really, really well, and I think they got to trust him, can put some guys, get help around them and continue to grow with these teams. I think when you sign your key guys to contracts, Saquon [Barkley], Dexter Lawrence, Daniel ... you put these guys, you keep adding guys around them and you don't just say, hey, switch it up right away because you have one bad year."

He's right in the sense you don't blow it up after 1 bad year.  But what about 4 bad years out of 5?  I think we know at this point the ceiling that Jones brings along with him.  There was at least hope after last season that maybe he was finally turning a corner with Daboll/Kafka better pieces around him would get him to that next level...but nope.  Didn't happen.  The pieces around him got better, he got worse.  It's time to move on.  They can't get rid of him completely but since they're going to be drafting in the top 2 it's time to pick a real QB to replace him. 

Before Eli gave his stick with Jones opinion did he ask Daboll why he threw the Microsoft Surface? I/m/o that was the moment Daboll knew it won't be Jones leading them to the promised land. It probably went down something like the following. Daboll "didn't you see xyz we went over this scenario 1000x, and you told me you got it" Jones in his best Ralph Kramden imitation replied "a humina humina humina".

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 16, 2023, 03:15:00 PMHe's right in the sense you don't blow it up after 1 bad year.  But what about 4 bad years out of 5?  I think we know at this point the ceiling that Jones brings along with him.  There was at least hope after last season that maybe he was finally turning a corner with Daboll/Kafka better pieces around him would get him to that next level...but nope.  Didn't happen.  The pieces around him got better, he got worse.  It's time to move on.  They can't get rid of him completely but since they're going to be drafting in the top 2 it's time to pick a real QB to replace him. 

In terms of career history of Daniel Jones

Rookie season-  Jones had a pretty good rookie season aside from his high turnover numbers

year's two and three-  Jones was below average in his two years under Judge and Garrett

year four-  Jones put up pretty good numbers in the first year in Daboll's system and with minimal support

year five-  In the 6 games he played under very difficult conditions he had 2 good to great games in AZ and Miami.   He had 4 weak-to-bad games.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 16, 2023, 03:43:10 PMRookie season-  Jones had a pretty good rookie season aside from his high turnover numbers

This sounds a bit like saying "she's good looking aside from her severe acne problem."

Ball security is a huge and very central part of playing the position. I don't see how it can be parsed out like this. Because he was so bad with ball security, to me his 2019 season was not good at all.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 16, 2023, 03:47:59 PMThis sounds a bit like saying "she's good looking aside from her severe acne problem."

Ball security is a huge and very central part of playing the position. I don't see how it can be parsed out like this. Because he was so bad with ball security, to me his 2019 season was not good at all.

Rookies having turnover issues is not that uncommon.   

I think hes being nice, but also probably does still have a great deal of insider info. jones will be back next year and will 95% be the starter if he's healthy

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 16, 2023, 03:50:05 PMRookies having turnover issues is not that uncommon. 

Fair enough. I agree.

Eli is supporting his friend. Because he's a really nice guy. The GM and coach have a different job.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 16, 2023, 02:43:00 PMI actually voted for "Eli knows more than fans about QB development" because that is a 100% true statement, and I would never be convinced otherwise.

What I don't know is exactly what Eli meant. If "bringing Jones back" simply refers to 2024, then I don't think that's much of a statement because that is clearly the only realistic thing they can do given his contract. Does Eli know how prohibitive it is to cut him after this season? Does he understand that it would be basically impossible to trade Jones with that contract?

If all Eli meant was that they should not do anything other than bring him back for the year 2024, then this is a complete non-story.

If on the other hand Eli is suggesting that the Giants commit to Jones long-term, which would involve restructuring his contract to get that $47mm 2024 cap hit down but would commit them to more years with him, then that is a horse of a different color. But I don't think he said that.

Dave - I would bet my life Eli does not mean for only 2024.  If you listen to him he believes in DJ 100%

Eli has never been a rock the boat guy in public.

That said, "no one knows what is said behind closed doors."

A Qb can have all the intangibles in the world but if he can't process defenses or actually throw the ball he's worthless.

Daniel Jones is missing a very basic understanding of NFL defenses. He doesn't process pre snap or post snap like he should, and his decision making is bad. Couple that with how trigger shy he is and and his reluctance to throw beyond 7 yards and you have a bad Qb.

How do you not see that Eli believes in this kid long term?  What else does he have to sY?  If he did not, he would not have to answer it.

He's going to always support his friends. That doesn't mean he's making an evaluation as a GM would.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 16, 2023, 02:44:45 PMHere is what Eli Manning said:


"They saw Daniel Jones, they were around him. They had him for a year and they trusted that, 'Hey, this is a kid that has a bunch of upside,' " Manning told Andrew Marchand and John Ourand, referring to the new Giants regime that started in 2022. "He's still in the first year of the offense, played extremely well. He can run, he's tough. He can make the throws. Just unfortunately, this was a tough year with injuries. ... And so, I think you still got to trust your quarterback.

"He's going to come back, he's going to be healthy. He works hard. He's a great teammate. He does all the intangible things really, really well, and I think they got to trust him, can put some guys, get help around them and continue to grow with these teams. I think when you sign your key guys to contracts, Saquon [Barkley], Dexter Lawrence, Daniel ... you put these guys, you keep adding guys around them and you don't just say, hey, switch it up right away because you have one bad year."

Eli: The bold-print part is what some members question (or completely disagree with).

Others believe he is not aggressive enough, regardless of whether or not they believe he can "make the throws."

Mostly, however, I'll bet that the vast majority of members agree with everything else Eli said.

Bob

PS. By the way, I did not vote.  My choice would have been to observe that Eli knows how owners/management think and IMO is directly reflecting their thoughts to the greatest extent possible.  In other words, he's trying to be straight with the fans, not to protect Jones or just because he's a "loyal Giants fan" himself.

Quote from: Philosophers on November 16, 2023, 04:11:03 PMHow do you not see that Eli believes in this kid long term?  What else does he have to sY?  If he did not, he would not have to answer it.

A non-answer would've been interpreted as not supportive of Jones. Eli has been around long enough and is more media savvy than he gets credit for. Eli did the classy thing, which is support a guy he played with and knows and I'm sure he hopes proves to the Giants they don't need to hit reset on the QB position.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 16, 2023, 05:25:34 PMA non-answer would've been interpreted as not supportive of Jones. Eli has been around long enough and is more media savvy than he gets credit for. Eli did the classy thing, which is support a guy he played with and knows and I'm sure he hopes proves to the Giants they don't need to hit reset on the QB position.

Exactly, H. Honestly, was anyone expecting Eli to state they should move on from DJ, or that's he's not the guy?  Because, that's just not who Eli is...

Quote from: kingm56 on November 16, 2023, 05:30:22 PMExactly, H. Honestly, was anyone expecting Eli to state they should move on from DJ, or that's he's not the guy?  Because, that's just not who Eli is...

If Eli wanted to answer it, he could also have given a one sentence positive response.  He chose not to and instead was much more detailed.  I think he believes in DJ.  I am just pointing it out. 

I guess the follow-up question here is does Eli have any actual influence over what moves the team makes.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 16, 2023, 03:15:00 PMHe's right in the sense you don't blow it up after 1 bad year.  But what about 4 bad years out of 5?  I think we know at this point the ceiling that Jones brings along with him.  There was at least hope after last season that maybe he was finally turning a corner with Daboll/Kafka better pieces around him would get him to that next level...but nope.  Didn't happen.  The pieces around him got better, he got worse.  It's time to move on.  They can't get rid of him completely but since they're going to be drafting in the top 2 it's time to pick a real QB to replace him. 

This is exactly right. Jones has been mostly mediocre with 2022 being the outlier. Truly elite quarterbacks (CJ Stroud being the latest example) elevate their entire team even when it's bad. Daniel works hard, but he just doesn't have that kind of greatness in him.

So I must respectfully disagree with Eli, whatever his reasons are for saying what he did.

To cure out what to do in this draft I think the Giants have to answer these fundamental questions...
How comfortable do we feel with this offensive line and how much can they improve in a year to protect a high profile rookie quarterback?
How much confidence do they have in the QB class coming out next year?
If their confidence is low in both their o-line and the QB class, then it may make the most sense to not even bother drafting a QB even if this is an area of need. Maybe trade down, build depth, and see whether or not DJ finally gets his head screwed on right after watching other's work with the players he's had around him. He's likely not seeing the field until mid season anyway. If he looks to be turning things around then you stick with him. Otherwise, you cut bait and get that next QB next season.
It's probably makes more sense financially to take this approach anyway.

This is going to be a much stronger QB class than next season. It will set the franchise back years if they don't pick a QB this year. You don't wait to make things perfect. You get the guy and then build around him. That is the benefit of the a QB on a rookie deal.

Quote from: goNets on November 16, 2023, 08:30:10 PMTo cure out what to do in this draft I think the Giants have to answer these fundamental questions...
How comfortable do we feel with this offensive line and how much can they improve in a year to protect a high profile rookie quarterback?
How much confidence do they have in the QB class coming out next year?
If their confidence is low in both their o-line and the QB class, then it may make the most sense to not even bother drafting a QB even if this is an area of need. Maybe trade down, build depth, and see whether or not DJ finally gets his head screwed on right after watching other's work with the players he's had around him. He's likely not seeing the field until mid season anyway. If he looks to be turning things around then you stick with him. Otherwise, you cut bait and get that next QB next season.
It's probably makes more sense financially to take this approach anyway.

Qbs don't magically become something they are not in year 7. There is no film that says Jones will ever be anything other than what he is currently. He fits Dabol/kafkas offense horribly.

He fits any NFL offense horribly.

I still think Jones starts week 1 next year regardless if they use a pick on a QB. Eli may have some info on that.

Is he doing some PR?

Jones likely won't be ready for week 1. It is already November and he hasn't had his surgery yet.

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 16, 2023, 11:34:36 PMJones likely won't be ready for week 1. It is already November and he hasn't had his surgery yet.

It's generally a 9 month recovery these days.  If he has surgery before December, there is time

Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 16, 2023, 11:34:36 PMJones likely won't be ready for week 1. It is already November and he hasn't had his surgery yet.

It's generally a 9 month recovery these days.  If he has surgery before December, there is time

Based on what I've seen from both QBs this season, I would much rather have Tyrod Taylor be the opening day QB than Jones.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 16, 2023, 10:02:30 PMQbs don't magically become something they are not in year 7.

I fully agree in principle, although this is not entirely without precedent. Geno Smith showed it's not impossible. He was always a low-end starter to middling backup at best, and then in year nine of his career he suddenly became a high end starter as a 32 year old. I think cases like that are virtually unheard of, but the fact that it happened at all, even he is the only example this dramatic, shows it's not impossible.

I'm not saying this will happen with Jones. I firmly think it won't. If nothing else I think he has had way too many serious injuries for someone who is only in year five in the NFL.

But we can't say it's a zero percent chance because clearly it is not.

The answer is missing from your list:

Eli Works for the Giants and this Is the Team's Messaging.

No employee of the Giants is going to come out and say replace Jones until its done. For one thing, that points to tanking and a team would never admit or acknowledge that. Those STM renewal notes will be going out early next year.

And the Giants will be picking a QB next year. Jones has had two season ending injuries and two injuries to his neck. What's the mantra again? Smart, Tough, DEPENDABLE.

Eli works for the Giants? In what capacity? The only employer that I know he currently has is ESPN.

Quote from: TDToomer on November 17, 2023, 09:52:26 AMEli works for the Giants? In what capacity? The only employer that I know he currently has is ESPN.

He creates content for them, including the Eli Manning show: https://www.giants.com/video/elimanningshow

Quote from: TDToomer on November 17, 2023, 09:52:26 AMEli works for the Giants? In what capacity? The only employer that I know he currently has is ESPN.

If creating goofy videos with Kate Mara and Shaun O'Hara counts as working, then he "works" for them, but he I would not call it a serious "job" per se. I have no idea if he gets an actual paycheck but I sort of doubt it (albeit I have no idea). I think he comes and goes as he pleases and largely has minimal actual responsibility. I certainly don't think he sits in on serious meetings or anything like that.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 17, 2023, 11:35:35 AMIf creating goofy videos with Kate Mara and Shaun O'Hara counts as working, then he "works" for them, but he I would not call it a serious "job" per se. I have no idea if he gets an actual paycheck but I sort of doubt it (albeit I have no idea). I think he comes and goes as he pleases and largely has minimal actual responsibility. I certainly don't think he sits in on serious meetings or anything like that.

I don't think he's picking players either. But he is employed by them, and he's definitely not going to say anything that Daboll / Schoen wouldn't say.

And right now, no one knows which way the admin is leaning so the company line is, Daniel Jones is the QB.

Regarding Eli's statement on DJ: It's called empathy my Giants friends.

I'm not saying Eli doesn't believe what he's saying about DJ, and if anyone in here wants to claim more knowledge of the position than Eli, to that I say enjoy your fantasy.

OTOH, Eli spent his final 6 seasons as a Giant, taking some of the worst beatings I've ever seen a player endure, in large part due to a poor OL, and to a lesser degree, some receivers who were inconsistent at best.

I believe he's reliving this experience watching DJ and while he may well be correct on his evaluation of DJ, it could also be his evaluation of the circumstance which may be coloring his opinion of DJ.

If I'm Schoen and Daboll, I strongly consider Eli's point of view, while hedging my bet by acquiring a starting QB for next year and beyond.

Imagine we draft that QB and he's got everything you need to win a SB , AND DJ steps up and shows he's beyond 2022 form for the 1st 6 weeks of the 2024 season. We could parlay that into more assets to build the roster and still have "that guy" at QB.


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Does anyone know if Simms was asked about whether Dave Brown should be the Giants QB circa 1996? It would almost similar. They were teammates briefly and like Jones/Eli one was drafted for the sole purpose of replacing the other.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 17, 2023, 09:06:54 AMI fully agree in principle, although this is not entirely without precedent. Geno Smith showed it's not impossible. He was always a low-end starter to middling backup at best, and then in year nine of his career he suddenly became a high end starter as a 32 year old. I think cases like that are virtually unheard of, but the fact that it happened at all, even he is the only example this dramatic, shows it's not impossible.

I'm not saying this will happen with Jones. I firmly think it won't. If nothing else I think he has had way too many serious injuries for someone who is only in year five in the NFL.

But we can't say it's a zero percent chance because clearly it is not.

The difference with Geno that a lot ignore, not saying you but the broader public is that Geno only started 30 games for the Jets, basically two seasons. He didn't get a year 3 when most qbs supposedly take that leap. That cannot be said for Jones however who has had what feels like an eternity to something, anything, and hasn't.

Quote from: y_so_blu on November 16, 2023, 07:17:34 PMThis is exactly right. Jones has been mostly mediocre with 2022 being the outlier. Truly elite quarterbacks (CJ Stroud being the latest example) elevate their entire team even when it's bad. Daniel works hard, but he just doesn't have that kind of greatness in him.

So I must respectfully disagree with Eli, whatever his reasons are for saying what he did.

Cj Stroud ....elite already ?


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