Big Blue Huddle

Indulging in conspiracy theories has appeal to our human nature.   In light of the Giants' official statements and those who report on the team (who all report that Mara gives his GM and HC full autonomy) to suggest that John Mara is responsible for decisions beyond hiring the HC and GM,
 it's fair to call such claims conspiracy theories.

Now, I am mindful that "full autonomy" can be interpreted in various ways.  Some will say it means the owner simply backs off, says nothing, and lets his top people do their job.  Others will say the owner is allowed to give his opinions to his employees, but in the end, honors the decision of the GM and HC. 

For the purpose of the poll, let us assume the giving opinions but honoring their decisions is the definition.

 

Puppet Master!

I think it's more nuanced and not black and white enough to stick in a box. He's very opinionated and makes his feelings known in public and more than likely, in private. Obviously he and I have never had private conversations but as the owner of a billion-dollar organization, he very much has shared how he wants his organization run and whom he wants to be a part of it.

He may not have said directly that he wanted a particular person replaced or kept despite the lack of productivity. But statements like, "the offense is broken" or "we have done everything possible to ruin this kid" are extremely influential. It's like when your wife says, "Honey, it's cold in here." It's basically saying, "I don't like the current situation and something needs to be done about it."

I believe he's involved in GM, HC, and QB hiring decisions. I also believe he's in the Draft Planning room as an ear near the end. I also think he and the GM communicate throughout the season. I don't believe he meddles to the point where others have commented.

The moon landing being faked is a conspiracy theory. Believing that an owner of a team would have some say (even indirectly) in the decision to retain a player who that owner has openly espoused support of while contract negotiations with said player were ongoing is not a "conspiracy," but more a belief informed by direct and circumstantial evidence. Could such supposition be incorrect? Of course. But it doesn't involve a tangled web of equally impossible predicates.

I voted for the option that I believe he does get involved. I didn't vote for the "insufficient evidence" option because while that is true that we don't have enough to draw a firm conclusion, the other options are just about what you believe, not what you know to be true for certain.

I believe Mara endeavors to give his coach and GM plenty of rope to make decisions, and he might even tell them that (barring scenarios where there are legitimate character concerns) they are the ones making the call. But by simply being present in the building everyday and in meetings, and by having football opinions not to mention speaking very publicly about them, he is, almost by definition, involved. The degree to which he has full purchase over his GMs is going to vary from GM to GM, and will probably depend significantly on the amount of success said GM has had recently. But I definitely think he is involved, and I think, whether he wants to admit it or not, he has material influence. And I think the bigger a decision it is, the more influence he probably has.

Now... can he be talked out of a view, or will he back down if his GM firmly disagrees with him on something? I think it's certainly possible that he can/does, but that's the part I'm not really sure about. I suspect he is reasonably flexible, because if he weren't, that would become more known around the league pretty quickly, and then highly touted GM candidates like Schoen would not make themselves available to the Giants.

So I don't think he's a tyrant, but I definitely think he is involved and has influence, whether he wants to admit it or not.

While I am well aware of Giants ownerships long history of nepotism and cronyism which has never served it well, I have no interest in participating in such silly, meaningless, unconstructive, conspiracy-mongering in whatever form.  :boooo:

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on November 17, 2023, 12:06:02 PMWhile I am well aware of Giants ownerships long history of nepotism and cronyism which has never served it well, I have no interest in participating in such silly, meaningless, unconstructive, conspiracy-mongering in whatever form.  :boooo:

Cheers!

Larry,

For what it's worth, I am not trying to start conspiracy theories, nor am I supporting them.  I have been hearing fans espousing conspiracy theories, and I was curious as to how wide spread such beliefs were among the fanbase.

Quote from: Painter on November 17, 2023, 12:06:02 PMWhile I am well aware of Giants ownerships long history of nepotism and cronyism which has never served it well, I have no interest in participating in such silly, meaningless, unconstructive, conspiracy-mongering in whatever form.  :boooo:

Cheers!

Cunningham's Law

Mara is guilty of holding on to Eli for too long and believing DJ was something more than he demonstrated over 8 years. If the latter constitutes a conspiracy, a lot of posters here should be investigated too. Otherwise, Larry perfectly articulated my own sentiments. 

I'll conclude by stating I'm glad the Maras own my favorite football team; they're a classy family.

I think Schoen and Daboll have autonomy to do what they need to do, but I absolutely think ownership makes its feelings known on certain things (i.e the QB/face of the franchise)

Quote from: kingm56 on November 17, 2023, 02:34:21 PMMara is guilty of holding on to Eli for too long and believing DJ was something more than he demonstrated over 8 years. If the latter constitutes a conspiracy, a lot of posters here should be investigated too. Otherwise, Larry perfectly articulated my own sentiments. 

I'll conclude by stating I'm glad the Maras own my favorite football team; they're a classy family.

Good point King. There are a lot of sleazy owners in the NFL. I am glad ours is not one of them.

Which is not to say he leaves nothing to be desired. I would say he most assuredly does. But for all of Mara's flaws, a lack of class, loyalty, and integrity is not among them.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 17, 2023, 02:34:21 PMMara is guilty of holding on to Eli for too long and believing DJ was something more than he demonstrated over 8 years. If the latter constitutes a conspiracy, a lot of posters here should be investigated too. Otherwise, Larry perfectly articulated my own sentiments. 

I'll conclude by stating I'm glad the Maras own my favorite football team; they're a classy family.

The Mara's have hurt this team greatly since I've been following the them. While Wellington may have been a top talent evaluator in the '40's and 50's, the game passed him by in the 60's and he never came back. His drafts, which he was solely responsible for, were worse than horrible after 1956. His nephew Tim tried to get Andy Robustelli to run the team in the 70's, but Wellington's interference kept them down. After the league stepped in after the '78 season, Wellington agreed to let the new GM run the team without interference. He allowed George Young to run the team and they were finally successful.
He became too friendly with Young and in the early days of free agency did nothing as it became apparent the game passed Young by. After Young finally stepped down, Wellington and John began meddling with Ernie Accorsi. They pushed Tom Coughlin on him. John was heavily involved with the changing of Caughlin's coordinators, namely Ben McAdoo. Later, he narrow-mindedly pushed Jerry Reese to promote McAdoo to head coach.  John hired Dave Gettleman, again narrow-mindedly. I'm sure he was behind drafting Barkley because he felt Barkley could help Eli Manning. I could go on.
Old man Tim Mara built the team from scratch. Wellington almost destroyed it. Nephew Tim fought and saved it, now John is destroying it again.  I have no love for the Mara's. I wish they'd sell the team.

I have no doubt John Mara is still interfering with GM and personal decisions.

While it is irrelevant to this discussion, I will never forget the day Phil Simms was released. Not only was I overwhelmed with the fact that Simms' career with the Giants was suddenly over, but I was further stunned by the words of the late Wellington Mara.

Mara Overwhelmed Too (https://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/16/sports/mara-overwhelmed-too.html)

The above is the extreme; however, does anyone here really believe that John Mara, who bore witness to everything that took place in Giants Stadium on June 16, 1994, would jump out of line from what his father did to meddle with a serious decision made by the General Manager? I mean, Mr. Mara went on record to say he disagreed with Young's decision; however, he would support it.

I, for one, do not believe Mara's decision to fire Reese and McAdoo in 2017, following the benching of Manning, and the public humiliation which followed after, counts as jumping out of line from the above:

Giants Fire Coach Ben McAdoo and General Manager Jerry Reese (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/04/sports/football/Giants-ben-mcadoo-fired.html)

Ever since the great Tom Coughlin stepped away from the Giants' organization in 2015, the Giants have bumbled and stumbled so much that John Mara has been soft-shoeing it in an attempt to convince fans he's trying to get it fixed. His first attempt with Reese and McAdoo - strike one. His next attempt with Gettleman and Shurmur - strike 2A. The next attempt with Gettleman and Joe Judge - strike 2B. His latest attempt with Schoen and Daboll - the jury is still out. Lesson learned - got to give them more than just two years to turn it around. Knows about penthouse to the outhouse, but does he know the reverse apart from rise up year one, back to the abyss year two?

Mara is remaining mum at this moment which is the right answer. The head coach and GM are saying the right things. In the end, the ultimate gauge, win or loss, is whether the players play hard for the coach. Even in spite of the final score, last week, that Jersey kid, DeVito, marched them down the field for the final points of the game and, to me, that spoke wonders that there's still fight in this team even if they are overmatched at this point.

So, I agree that the conspiracy-mongering is a pile of nonsense and it's time to take the NY-NJ toughness, many of us were born with, and suck it up and deal with the setback of this season until the team is able to hit the restart button and make the decisions it needs to make in order to move on and, hopefully, move forward.

Without 1978, there wouldn't have been a George Young, Ray Perkins or Phil Simms.

Without 1980, there wouldn't have been a Lawrence Taylor.

Without Joe Danelo hitting the upright in overtime in the 1981 season finale against Dallas, he'd never get the opportunity to leap into Scott Brunner's arms after converting a second game winning attempt following Byron Hunt's interception of Danny White, and the Giants ending the 18-Year Rebuilding Plan with their admission into the NFC Wild Card Playoff Round.

Without 1982, there wouldn't have been a Bill Parcells as Head Coach.

Without 1983, there wouldn't have been a Carl Banks (or possibly William Roberts).

Without 1984, there wouldn't have been second chances for both Bill Parcells and Phil Simms, along with a magnificent defense in the making, to help the Giants rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, into a title contender.

Without Sean Landeta's infamous "Ole Miss" in Soldier Field, Chicago, to punctuate a frustrating Divisional Playoff loss to the Bears in 1985, he never would have gotten the chance to redeem himself a year later in his wind-swept Giants Stadium with, arguably, the greatest punt ever in the old Giants Stadium by launching a boomer through the wind and landing it on the Redskins' five-yard line to set the defense up for the kill and the 17-0 NFC Championship victory.

Without the pain and suffering from that one play in 1978, the moment which came to underscore the futility of this organization like no other, with us stunned as Herman Edwards jumped for joy in the end zone as the entire Eagle bench cleared to join him there, without that moment, the nadir of this experience we have as Giants fans, in no way possible could we have felt the infinite joy and ecstacy when the clock hit 0:00 in Pasadena, CA on January 25, 1987, Bill Parcells being lifted onto the shoulders of his "Suburbanities," while John Madden proclaimed, "This is as good as it gets; it doesn't get any better than this; and the best part, it lasts forever." We can romanticize the whole thing now, because that moment in Super Bowl XXI made going through all the despair and seeming hopelessness all worth it in the end. Some way, somehow, I hope Schoen and Daboll will get that opportunity to experience the same thing. So, let them pay their dues today. I'll be there on Sunday moaning and groaning with the rest of you; however, we'll all be there, some day, somehow, when it all translates into something worth going through all of this when it's all said and done. We can look back and laugh at the days of conspiracies while embracing our champions.

Admittedly, it is a far-off dream today. But not any further than the darkest of all days on November 19th, 1978, when a game already won was handed to the Iggles in the most perverse method known to the sport. They eventually found their way to lifting Parcells in Pasadena. Why can't they find their way to lifting Daboll as well?

Keeping the fires burning until the day ...

Peace!

Quote from: Giant Jim on November 17, 2023, 07:21:47 PMThe Mara's have hurt this team greatly since I've been following the them. While Wellington may have been a top talent evaluator in the '40's and 50's, the game passed him by in the 60's and he never came back. His drafts, which he was solely responsible for, were worse than horrible after 1956. His nephew Tim tried to get Andy Robustelli to run the team in the 70's, but Wellington's interference kept them down. After the league stepped in after the '78 season, Wellington agreed to let the new GM run the team without interference. He allowed George Young to run the team and they were finally successful.
He became too friendly with Young and in the early days of free agency did nothing as it became apparent the game passed Young by. After Young finally stepped down, Wellington and John began meddling with Ernie Accorsi. They pushed Tom Coughlin on him. John was heavily involved with the changing of Caughlin's coordinators, namely Ben McAdoo. Later, he narrow-mindedly pushed Jerry Reese to promote McAdoo to head coach.  John hired Dave Gettleman, again narrow-mindedly. I'm sure he was behind drafting Barkley because he felt Barkley could help Eli Manning. I could go on.
Old man Tim Mara built the team from scratch. Wellington almost destroyed it. Nephew Tim fought and saved it, now John is destroying it again.  I have no love for the Mara's. I wish they'd sell the team.

I have no doubt John Mara is still interfering with GM and personal decisions.

Though I can't articulate the details as succinctly as Giant Jim just did, the Maras, Wellington and John, have been disastrous in terms of decision making in building a winning franchise. Yes they are loyal and show integrity, but for us fans, we have to suffer their other ineptitudes much too often.

Quote from: katkavage on November 17, 2023, 08:09:37 PMThough I can't articulate the details as succinctly as Giant Jim just did, the Maras, Wellington and John, have been disastrous in terms of decision making in building a winning franchise. Yes they are loyal and show integrity, but for us fans, we have to suffer their other ineptitudes much too often.

For me, TC's refusal to shake hands with him tells me all I need to know.

To be fair, TC produced three straight loosing seasons: 7-9, 6-10, 6-10; thus, if you believe coaching is critical to winning and player development, his 'retirement' seems fair.

Quote from: kartanoman on November 17, 2023, 08:06:05 PMWithout 1978, there wouldn't have been a George Young, Ray Perkins or Phil Simms.

Without 1980, there wouldn't have been a Lawrence Taylor.

Without Joe Danelo hitting the upright in overtime in the 1981 season finale against Dallas, he'd never get the opportunity to leap into Scott Brunner's arms after converting a second game winning attempt following Byron Hunt's interception of Danny White, and the Giants ending the 18-Year Rebuilding Plan with their admission into the NFC Wild Card Playoff Round.

Without 1982, there wouldn't have been a Bill Parcells as Head Coach.

Without 1983, there wouldn't have been a Carl Banks (or possibly William Roberts).

Without 1984, there wouldn't have been second chances for both Bill Parcells and Phil Simms, along with a magnificent defense in the making, to help the Giants rise like a Phoenix from the ashes, into a title contender.

Without Sean Landeta's infamous "Ole Miss" in Soldier Field, Chicago, to punctuate a frustrating Divisional Playoff loss to the Bears in 1985, he never would have gotten the chance to redeem himself a year later in his wind-swept Giants Stadium with, arguably, the greatest punt ever in the old Giants Stadium by launching a boomer through the wind and landing it on the Redskins' five-yard line to set the defense up for the kill and the 17-0 NFC Championship victory.

Without Wellington Mara, we probably wouldn't have had 20 years of lousy football. 1964-1983

Quote from: kartanoman on November 17, 2023, 08:06:05 PMWithout the pain and suffering from that one play in 1978, the moment which came to underscore the futility of this organization like no other, with us stunned as Herman Edwards jumped for joy in the end zone as the entire Eagle bench cleared to join him there, without that moment, the nadir of this experience we have as Giants fans, in no way possible could we have felt the infinite joy and ecstacy when the clock hit 0:00 in Pasadena, CA on January 25, 1987, Bill Parcells being lifted onto the shoulders of his "Suburbanities," while John Madden proclaimed, "This is as good as it gets; it doesn't get any better than this; and the best part, it lasts forever." We can romanticize the whole thing now, because that moment in Super Bowl XXI made going through all the despair and seeming hopelessness all worth it in the end. Some way, somehow, I hope Schoen and Daboll will get that opportunity to experience the same thing. So, let them pay their dues today. I'll be there on Sunday moaning and groaning with the rest of you; however, we'll all be there, some day, somehow, when it all translates into something worth going through all of this when it's all said and done. We can look back and laugh at the days of conspiracies while embracing our champions.

Without Tim Mara, Wellington probably would've continued running the team into the ground into the 1990's and we wouldn't have had the great teams of the Parcells era.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 17, 2023, 11:02:21 AMI believe he's involved in GM, HC, and QB hiring decisions. I also believe he's in the Draft Planning room as an ear near the end. I also think he and the GM communicate throughout the season. I don't believe he meddles to the point where others have commented.

Compared to other team owners we have a good one. Mara is a bit old school and archaic in his view of the hierarchy but I think he is more hands off this time around than most say. He knows going loyal and "in house" cost the team dearly with Gettleman, he is giving Schoen and Daboll time to mold the team.

Firing McAdoo in season was probably something he regrets.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 18, 2023, 09:28:14 AMFiring McAdoo in season was probably something he regrets.

As it turns out, Mac was right about Geno and mahomes.  He was just a terrible communicator.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 18, 2023, 09:45:38 AMAs it turns out, Mac was right about Geno and mahomes.  He was just a terrible communicator.

He was a young HC who wasn't ready. Maybe he never will be ready. He's out of the league right now.

Regardless, firing him in season was an aberration.

I firmly believe that Mike Francesa and his huge rant after the Eli benching had a lot to do with McAdoo getting fired in-season. I can't prove anything obviously but there is zero doubt in my mind Mara heard that and got very uncomfortable after hearing it. McAdoo and Reese were going to be gone regardless, but I think the in-season aspect of it was pushed along by the Francesa rant, which went viral.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 18, 2023, 10:00:33 AMHe was a young HC who wasn't ready. Maybe he never will be ready. He's out of the league right now.

Regardless, firing him in season was an aberration.

Concur. 

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 18, 2023, 10:42:45 AMI firmly believe that Mike Francesa and his huge rant after the Eli benching had a lot to do with McAdoo getting fired in-season. I can't prove anything obviously but there is zero doubt in my mind Mara heard that and got very uncomfortable after hearing it. McAdoo and Reese were going to be gone regardless, but I think the in-season aspect of it was pushed along by the Francesa rant, which went viral.

It was so long ago, I don't even remember what side I was on. However, once the streak was broken, and Geno played well enough to warrant another start, he should have been given a chance.

McAdoo was too involved with the Offense to see what was happening in the Defensive Room.

With cooler minds at the end of the season, a proper evaluation would have taken place.

Not that it would have mattered. His mind was already made up.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 17, 2023, 12:49:58 PMLarry,

For what it's worth, I am not trying to start conspiracy theories, nor am I supporting them.  I have been hearing fans espousing conspiracy theories, and I was curious as to how wide spread such beliefs were among the fanbase.

I'm sorry, Rich. My critique was a bit harsh; tainted by my belief that despite the Mara's history of possessiveness and long stretches of football neuropathy, there really hasn't been a franchise which has had more success in the past 25 years other than the Bradyiots from whom Our Heroes snatched not one, but two Lombos.

Just think of Jerrah's Cows- America's Team per NFL Films, John Facenda- whose generally fickle fans have been living with high expectations without a single SB appearance for the past Quarter Century, post-Jimmy. Whereas the Giants, a team whose fans rarely if ever indulge their expectation, have in that time won 2 of 3 SBs with a rather proprietary family ownerships and otherwise similar amount of turnover in coaching staffs.

Does the question then arise as to how much of a difference is there between the Jerrah and the Mara?

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on November 18, 2023, 12:55:26 PMI'm sorry, Rich. My critique was a bit harsh; tainted by my belief that despite the Mara's history of possessiveness and long stretches of football neuropathy, there really hasn't been a franchise which has had more success in the past 25 years other than the Bradyiots from whom Our Heroes snatched not one, but two Lombos.

Just think of Jerrah's Cows- America's Team per NFL Films, John Facenda- whose generally fickle fans have been living with high expectations without a single SB appearance for the past Quarter Century, post-Jimmy. Whereas the Giants, a team whose fans rarely if ever indulge their expectation, have in that time won 2 of 3 SBs with a rather proprietary family ownerships and otherwise similar amount of turnover in coaching staffs.

Does the question then arise as to how much of a difference is there between the Jerrah and the Mara?

Cheers!

I appreciate the Super Bowls. As I appreciate the intervention by Pete Rozelle to help right a floundering franchise by forcing George Young on the Maras.

Quote from: katkavage on November 18, 2023, 12:58:21 PMI appreciate the Super Bowls. As I appreciate the intervention by Pete Rozelle to help right a floundering franchise by forcing George Young on the Maras.

Pete Rozelle did not force George Young on the Giants. Rozelle reluctantly got involved after being persuaded by Art Model and Art Rooney. After Rozelle got Wellington to allow the next GM to work without his interference, the first 2 names Rozelle suggested turned down interviews. George Young was the 3rd name. There weren't many candidates left in February 1979. The most important thing Rozelle did was getting Wellington to agree to step back.

Quote from: Giant Jim on November 17, 2023, 07:21:47 PMThe Mara's have hurt this team greatly since I've been following the them. While Wellington may have been a top talent evaluator in the '40's and 50's, the game passed him by in the 60's and he never came back. His drafts, which he was solely responsible for, were worse than horrible after 1956. His nephew Tim tried to get Andy Robustelli to run the team in the 70's, but Wellington's interference kept them down. After the league stepped in after the '78 season, Wellington agreed to let the new GM run the team without interference. He allowed George Young to run the team and they were finally successful.
He became too friendly with Young and in the early days of free agency did nothing as it became apparent the game passed Young by. After Young finally stepped down, Wellington and John began meddling with Ernie Accorsi. They pushed Tom Coughlin on him. John was heavily involved with the changing of Caughlin's coordinators, namely Ben McAdoo. Later, he narrow-mindedly pushed Jerry Reese to promote McAdoo to head coach.  John hired Dave Gettleman, again narrow-mindedly. I'm sure he was behind drafting Barkley because he felt Barkley could help Eli Manning. I could go on.
Old man Tim Mara built the team from scratch. Wellington almost destroyed it. Nephew Tim fought and saved it, now John is destroying it again.  I have no love for the Mara's. I wish they'd sell the team.

I have no doubt John Mara is still interfering with GM and personal decisions.

I agree.   Mara's have been guilty of preventing the Giants from adapting and growing with the league for years...always seem to be five years behind with coaching hires and Gms ....always making conservative decisions with all football operations...they like to be perceived by all as NFL legends in their own mind....but in reality survive as owners because they are in the largest market for tv , fans etc. Look at this years schedule....one good year making playoffs and the NFL marketing / schedulers couldn't wait to get them back in prime time games....too many in my opinion. 
And Mara obsession with Ronnie Barnes is an example of their stubbornness to adapt to todays game.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Quote from: Giant Jim on November 18, 2023, 04:07:39 PMPete Rozelle did not force George Young on the Giants. Rozelle reluctantly got involved after being persuaded by Art Model and Art Rooney. After Rozelle got Wellington to allow the next GM to work without his interference, the first 2 names Rozelle suggested turned down interviews. George Young was the 3rd name. There weren't many candidates left in February 1979. The most important thing Rozelle did was getting Wellington to agree to step back.

That was the biggest step of all (i.e. letting Young build the front office and run the show as it needed to be run).

Getting both sides to agree to Young was Rozelle's significant accomplishment as arbitrator between Timothy J. Mara (i.e. the late Jack Mara's son) and Wellington Mara. The former wanted George Allen while the latter wanted Jan Van Duser (https://www.nytimes.com/1979/02/11/archives/van-duser-rejected-giants-job-interviewed-by-maras-van-duser.html) from the NFL League Offices. Ultimately, Young became their man and the saga drew to a close. But the damage had been done and the two owners never spoke to each other. They used Young as a go-between. To Young's credit, he made the arrangement work without letting it impact the football operation and, over the course of the next 11 seasons, the Giants won their first two Super Bowls under Bill Parcells. By then, Timothy, along with his mom and sister, were ready to sell their half of ownership and did so to Preston Robert Tisch in 1991. He moved to Florida and invested his time in charitable events before Hodgkins Disease claimed his life in 1995.

It is unclear if Wellington and Timothy attempted to rekindle their relationship after the latter sold his part. Some sources suggest they got together, talked about the old days of football, both the good and the bad. Following Timothy's passing, Wellington went to pay his respects but did not answer any questions regarding their past and simply asked that they respect this private family matter. In the end, Mara loyalty never swayed; once a Giant, always a Giant.

Peace!

Quote from: Woody on November 19, 2023, 12:34:11 PMI agree.  Mara's have been guilty of preventing the Giants from adapting and growing with the league for years...always seem to be five years behind with coaching hires and Gms ....always making conservative decisions with all football operations...they like to be perceived by all as NFL legends in their own mind....but in reality survive as owners because they are in the largest market for tv , fans etc. Look at this years schedule....one good year making playoffs and the NFL marketing / schedulers couldn't wait to get them back in prime time games....too many in my opinion. 
And Mara obsession with Ronnie Barnes is an example of their stubbornness to adapt to todays game.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Great way of looking at it. George Young brought them up to date his first 9 or 10 years, but by the very early 90's he fell behind. Ernie Accorsi started to bring them back up to date, Jerry Reese and beyond didn't just watch the the league move on, they fell further back by regressing to old habits.

Quote from: kartanoman on November 19, 2023, 01:01:36 PMThat was the biggest step of all (i.e. letting Young build the front office and run the show as it needed to be run).

Getting both sides to agree to Young was Rozelle's significant accomplishment as arbitrator between Timothy J. Mara (i.e. the late Jack Mara's son) and Wellington Mara. The former wanted George Allen while the latter wanted Jan Van Duser (https://www.nytimes.com/1979/02/11/archives/van-duser-rejected-giants-job-interviewed-by-maras-van-duser.html) from the NFL League Offices. Ultimately, Young became their man and the saga drew to a close. But the damage had been done and the two owners never spoke to each other. They used Young as a go-between. To Young's credit, he made the arrangement work without letting it impact the football operation and, over the course of the next 11 seasons, the Giants won their first two Super Bowls under Bill Parcells. By then, Timothy, along with his mom and sister, were ready to sell their half of ownership and did so to Preston Robert Tisch in 1991. He moved to Florida and invested his time in charitable events before Hodgkins Disease claimed his life in 1995.

It is unclear if Wellington and Timothy attempted to rekindle their relationship after the latter sold his part. Some sources suggest they got together, talked about the old days of football, both the good and the bad. Following Timothy's passing, Wellington went to pay his respects but did not answer any questions regarding their past and simply asked that they respect this private family matter. In the end, Mara loyalty never swayed; once a Giant, always a Giant.

Peace!

It didn't matter who each one wanted. Tim didn't want just a different GM or coach, he didn't want to continue with the new GM just being a Yes man to Wellington like Robustelli was. Dan Reeves was flown in for a secret interview with Wellington and basically promised him the HC job. Tim called Dallas and told him the job wasn't his. Tom Landry called Well and told him Reeves would make a great coach, but to stop jerking him around until they got their xxxx together. There were many others. Well wanted Robustelli to stay another year, Terry Bledsoe, and many others. Tim said they would just be business as usual. Tim was suggesting names he knew his uncle would reject. It wasn't important for his man to be chosen, it was to get the team to have a new way of doing business. George Young was hired AFTER Tim and Well and Rozelle agreed for Well to step back. Part of the agreement was that Wellington's "do nothing friends" like Jim Lee Howell and Ray Walsh could keep their jobs. Young had to work with them and others. The announcement as to how they agreed to Young was just PR so both owners could save face.

Years later, with Tim gone, Wellington pushed Reeves on Young. This was the beginning of the Well side dragging them back down.